Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Dragon Ball villains usually are stronger than the heroes and they like to play around with them, giving time to the heroes to come up with something to beat them. That’s why the evil Majin Boo is promoted to be the most dangerous, because he doesn’t have that weakness. So, I ask again, why Omega Shenron would intend something so off the chart?

Everyone safely assumes SSBlue can do as much as SSGod without seeing him doing it, yet they demand evidence that GT characters do it, despite being made very clear that SS4 is also much stronger than SS3 (to an unknown degree). I don’t understand this fandom.

1) How is that off the chart? Omega's entire goal was to destroy the universe. If you were talking about someone like Freeza who just wants to conquer, then the "off the chart" would make sense. Even if you want to make the excuse that he's playing around, then he wouldn't have bother with the convoluted plan to destroy the universe. Besides the burden of proof is on you that he's capable of destroying the universe with a few punches.

2) You're comparing apples to oranges. SSB is literally the step-above SSG in the show, so we know that it can do that. While SS4 doesn't even exist in the same continuity as SSG, and so they don't share the same feats. Sure, SS4 is much stronger than SS3 but saying that SS4 is capable of the universe feat when it has more going against that than not, and 3 was only solar system level is a hard-sell.

Destroying the universe with a few shockwaves, that’s off the chart for Dragon Ball villains. They have a goal and never do most efficient way to get into that point, never.

I will make this easier. SSBlue is stronger than SSGod to an unknown degree. SSGod is stronger than SS3 to an unknown degree. SS4 is stronger than SS3 to an unknown degree. How do you know SSGod and SSBlue are stronger than SS4? You don’t. If GT were to be revised today, the author can write that SS4 can do all that stuff that SSGod and SSBlue are capable of, that it wouldn’t really change anything.

IMO, there is a blatant similarity between SS4 and Broli’s savage form. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were comparable in strength.

No offense, but this a fallacy known as arguing from ignorance:

An argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), or appeal to ignorance ('ignorance' stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It says something is true because it has not yet been proved false. Or, that something is false if it has not yet been proved true. This is also called a negative proof fallacy. This also includes the (false) assumption there are only two options (true or false).
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argum ... _ignorance

In the case of Super Saiyan 4, it has no feats proving that it can destroy a universe, or even a galaxy for that matter. In comparison, it was outright stated by the narrator and even Whis and the Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku were hitting with the force that can destroy a universe. Not just shockwaves would destroy the universe.

So in this case, the burden is on you to prove that Super Saiyan 4 can do such feats, not for us to prove Super Saiyan 4 can't do them because they were never shown.

[Helios518]

Goku beating Jiren by a fluke is your headcanon. The fact is he beat Jiren, was stated through Beerus.
The Broly movie is only in movie form. The anime and manga has nothing to do with Broly right now. Please show me where it stated that they were not using full power?

1) If it wasn't a fluke, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?

2) Simple, Goku and Vegeta wasn't using SSBKKx20 and SSBE, respectively. Toriyama may more influence in it, but Toei was still in charge for the overall production for the film, and it's clear that it's supposed to be a continuation of their ToP arc as well.

My friend, SSBE and BlueKKX20 were stated to be TOEI original ONLY forms. Toriyama's true canon only has Goku and Vegeta go up to Blue. The Broly movie did not exclusively continue from the anime but generally continued from the TOP story wise. Hence why there is no BlueKK.

Goku beat Jiren with his own power. That isn't a fluke but a fact. Regardless if Goku can't access such power now it's proven that the power Goku has IS greater than Jiren. Goku didn't beat Jiren cause he slipped on a banana peel but outright mastered a form for a moment with intention and went upside Jiren's head. This was all done on purpose not by accident.

1) You didn't answer the question "If it wasn't a fluke, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?"

2) Sure, you can say that that's Toriyama's canon or something. If the anime/manga use that movie as part of their continuity, then it Goku and Vegeta didn't go full-power. If the movie isn't part of the anime/manga continuity, then this debate is pointless.

[Hugo Boss]

No offense, but this a fallacy known as arguing from ignorance:

[...]

In the case of Super Saiyan 4, it has no feats proving that it can destroy a universe, or even a galaxy for that matter. In comparison, it was outright stated by the narrator and even Whis and the Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku were hitting with the force that can destroy a universe. Not just shockwaves would destroy the universe.

So in this case, the burden is on you to prove that Super Saiyan 4 can do such feats, not for us to prove Super Saiyan 4 can't do them because they were never shown.

I suggest you read the posts that came after that. I’m not demanding anything. Just reiterating this is just my opinion and I don’t care if someone needs evidence for a silly stuff like that.

[Miracles]

1) If it wasn't a fluke, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?

2) Simple, Goku and Vegeta wasn't using SSBKKx20 and SSBE, respectively. Toriyama may more influence in it, but Toei was still in charge for the overall production for the film, and it's clear that it's supposed to be a continuation of their ToP arc as well.

My friend, SSBE and BlueKKX20 were stated to be TOEI original ONLY forms. Toriyama's true canon only has Goku and Vegeta go up to Blue. The Broly movie did not exclusively continue from the anime but generally continued from the TOP story wise. Hence why there is no BlueKK.

Goku beat Jiren with his own power. That isn't a fluke but a fact. Regardless if Goku can't access such power now it's proven that the power Goku has IS greater than Jiren. Goku didn't beat Jiren cause he slipped on a banana peel but outright mastered a form for a moment with intention and went upside Jiren's head. This was all done on purpose not by accident.

1) You didn't answer the question "If it wasn't a fluke, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?"

2) Sure, you can say that that's Toriyama's canon or something. If the anime/manga use that movie as part of their continuity, then it Goku and Vegeta didn't go full-power. If the movie isn't part of the anime/manga continuity, then this debate is pointless.

The debate is legit cause ONLY Toriyama's Broly movie is in circulation as canon. Not the anime/manga. So Goku and Vegeta were FULL power against Broly concerning the PLOT.

Also, your question is irrelevant. Goku already beat Jiren intentionally with his own power. Fighting him again doesn't prove the last fight was by luck.

[Helios518]

My friend, SSBE and BlueKKX20 were stated to be TOEI original ONLY forms. Toriyama's true canon only has Goku and Vegeta go up to Blue. The Broly movie did not exclusively continue from the anime but generally continued from the TOP story wise. Hence why there is no BlueKK.

Goku beat Jiren with his own power. That isn't a fluke but a fact. Regardless if Goku can't access such power now it's proven that the power Goku has IS greater than Jiren. Goku didn't beat Jiren cause he slipped on a banana peel but outright mastered a form for a moment with intention and went upside Jiren's head. This was all done on purpose not by accident.

1) You didn't answer the question "If it wasn't a fluke, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?"

2) Sure, you can say that that's Toriyama's canon or something. If the anime/manga use that movie as part of their continuity, then it Goku and Vegeta didn't go full-power. If the movie isn't part of the anime/manga continuity, then this debate is pointless.

The debate is legit cause ONLY Toriyama's Broly movie is in circulation as canon. Not the anime/manga. So Goku and Vegeta were FULL power against Broly concerning the PLOT.

Also, your question is irrelevant. Goku already beat Jiren intentionally with his own power. Fighting him again doesn't prove the last fight was by luck.

1) You're beating around the bush. Is movie canon to the anime/manga or not?

2) More beating around the bush, and it's not irrelevant because it will determine if it's a fluke or not. Let me repeat the question again, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?

[Helios518]

No offense, but this a fallacy known as arguing from ignorance:

[...]

In the case of Super Saiyan 4, it has no feats proving that it can destroy a universe, or even a galaxy for that matter. In comparison, it was outright stated by the narrator and even Whis and the Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku were hitting with the force that can destroy a universe. Not just shockwaves would destroy the universe.

So in this case, the burden is on you to prove that Super Saiyan 4 can do such feats, not for us to prove Super Saiyan 4 can't do them because they were never shown.

I suggest you read the posts that came after that. I’m not demanding anything. Just reiterating this is just my opinion and I don’t care if someone needs evidence for a silly stuff like that.

If you don't need evidence to prove something then wouldn't that undermine any debate because then everyone could just have an opinion to determine what are facts or not?

[Hugo Boss]

If you don't need evidence to prove something then wouldn't that undermine any debate because then everyone could just have an opinion to determine what are facts or not?

In this thread 99% of the posts are about theories and opinions. And that’s okay, I guess?! I don’t understand the need of presenting facts in a cartoony strength discussion. You can worry about that in more important things, like in your jobs and social relationships.

[Helios518]

If you don't need evidence to prove something then wouldn't that undermine any debate because then everyone could just have an opinion to determine what are facts or not?

In this thread 99% of the posts are about theories and opinions. And that’s okay, I guess?! I don’t understand the need of presenting facts in a cartoony strength discussion. You can worry about that in more important things, like in your jobs and social relationships.

The thread isn't a big deal to worry about, it's just to past to time/have a little fun. Regardless, if the thread is a big deal or not, it's purpose dissolves if debates occur without evidence.

[Hugo Boss]

if the thread is a big deal or not, it's purpose dissolves if debates occur without evidence.

The purpose of this thread is to be a lightning rod for DBSuper powerlevel talk. We aren’t here to measure who has the best evidence or anything.

[Miracles]

1) You didn't answer the question "If it wasn't a fluke, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?"

2) Sure, you can say that that's Toriyama's canon or something. If the anime/manga use that movie as part of their continuity, then it Goku and Vegeta didn't go full-power. If the movie isn't part of the anime/manga continuity, then this debate is pointless.

The debate is legit cause ONLY Toriyama's Broly movie is in circulation as canon. Not the anime/manga. So Goku and Vegeta were FULL power against Broly concerning the PLOT.

Also, your question is irrelevant. Goku already beat Jiren intentionally with his own power. Fighting him again doesn't prove the last fight was by luck.

1) You're beating around the bush. Is movie canon to the anime/manga or not?

2) More beating around the bush, and it's not irrelevant because it will determine if it's a fluke or not. Let me repeat the question again, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?

I'm not beating around the bush on either issue. You are. Toriyama's movies ARE the main canon. The anime and manga are only adaptations of His movies/plot outlines. Therefore TOEI and Toyotaro will obey Toriyama's plot where Broly is greater than anything Goku and Vegeta can dish out on their own. Therefore, they have to fuse to beat him. In NEITHER medium will Goku and Vegeta be using "5% of their power." That's headcanon you made up because in Toriyama's plot he has them going full power against Broly. So IF TOEI and Toyotaro adapts the movie they will be using SSBE/BlueKK/MSSB etc due to the narration of them needing to fuse because Broly is too much for them.

No one knows if Goku can fight Jiren head up without UI at the moment. It's been TWO arcs since the TOP. We don't know how big of a jump Goku has made. So I don't want to get into theory banter like you. Falsely claiming Goku's win was a "fluke [when the series states otherwise]" just cause he can't go UI and therefore you ASSUME he can't fight Jiren as he is now. You have to do better trying to pull me into guess work.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If SSB Goku can barely fight Ikari Broly albeit to a standstill albeit with a slowly growing edge due to better combat skill, I've no doubt that he couldn't fight Jiren at all anywhere close to full power.

Not only is Jiren an impressive martial artist in overall skill, but the power gap was so massive that the leap-frog-jump needed to cross it without Fusion or Ultra Instinct cannot be swallowed whatsoever. We're talking many thousands of times AT MINIMUM, given how even SSB Fusion is only just now solidly placed above Hakaishin-level and Ultra Instinct is a power surpassing that level as well.

[Helios518]

If SSB Goku can barely fight Ikari Broly albeit to a standstill albeit with a slowly growing edge due to better combat skill, I've no doubt that he couldn't fight Jiren at all anywhere close to full power.

Not only is Jiren an impressive martial artist in overall skill, but the power gap was so massive that the leap-frog-jump needed to cross it without Fusion or Ultra Instinct cannot be swallowed whatsoever. We're talking many thousands of times AT MINIMUM, given how even SSB Fusion is only just now solidly placed above Hakaishin-level and Ultra Instinct is a power surpassing that level as well.

Exactly, it doesn’t take much thinking that if Goku’s gains in power between arcs aren’t worth a mention, and it’s only been two arcs, then current Goku without UI still can’t approach Geran.

if the thread is a big deal or not, it's purpose dissolves if debates occur without evidence.

The purpose of this thread is to be a lightning rod for DBSuper powerlevel talk. We aren’t here to measure who has the best evidence or anything.

Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. If conversations about power levels were simply each person giving their own self-contained opinions like “I think Goten is god tier.” or “I think Goten is Raditz tier” then there wouldn’t be a need for this thread to begin with. But the page count of this thread suggests it’s not that simple.

[Helios518]

The debate is legit cause ONLY Toriyama's Broly movie is in circulation as canon. Not the anime/manga. So Goku and Vegeta were FULL power against Broly concerning the PLOT.

Also, your question is irrelevant. Goku already beat Jiren intentionally with his own power. Fighting him again doesn't prove the last fight was by luck.

1) You're beating around the bush. Is movie canon to the anime/manga or not?

2) More beating around the bush, and it's not irrelevant because it will determine if it's a fluke or not. Let me repeat the question again, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?

I'm not beating around the bush on either issue. You are. Toriyama's movies ARE the main canon. The anime and manga are only adaptations of His movies/plot outlines. Therefore TOEI and Toyotaro will obey Toriyama's plot where Broly is greater than anything Goku and Vegeta can dish out on their own. Therefore, they have to fuse to beat him. In NEITHER medium will Goku and Vegeta be using "5% of their power." That's headcanon you made up because in Toriyama's plot he has them going full power against Broly. So IF TOEI and Toyotaro adapts the movie they will be using SSBE/BlueKK/MSSB etc due to the narration of them needing to fuse because Broly is too much for them.

No one knows if Goku can fight Jiren head up without UI at the moment. It's been TWO arcs since the TOP. We don't know how big of a jump Goku has made. So I don't want to get into theory banter like you. Falsely claiming Goku's win was a "fluke [when the series states otherwise]" just cause he can't go UI and therefore you ASSUME he can't fight Jiren as he is now. You have to do better trying to pull me into guess work.

1) We don't need to go into the theoretical that if Toei and Toyotaro adapt, that we know they make Goku and Vegeta go all-out because Toei and Toyotaro like doing changes to the original material. That being said, this entire point is pointless because you're of the opinion that the anime and manga doesn't follow use the movie, while I do.

2) If Goku's gains in power aren't worth a mention, then his jump in power is significant. It's much easier to say that he has only gotten 2x stronger instead of the few hundreds/thousands time stronger to close the gap with Geran.

And here's the definition to fluke (according to dictionary.com) "an accidental advantage; stroke of good luck." And as everybody knows from watching ToP and after, Goku didn't activate UI on purpose, he got lucky that it activated. If he could do it on purpose then he would've used it against Broli and Moro.

[Miracles]

1) You're beating around the bush. Is movie canon to the anime/manga or not?

2) More beating around the bush, and it's not irrelevant because it will determine if it's a fluke or not. Let me repeat the question again, can current Goku go up to Geran, and beat him consistently?

I'm not beating around the bush on either issue. You are. Toriyama's movies ARE the main canon. The anime and manga are only adaptations of His movies/plot outlines. Therefore TOEI and Toyotaro will obey Toriyama's plot where Broly is greater than anything Goku and Vegeta can dish out on their own. Therefore, they have to fuse to beat him. In NEITHER medium will Goku and Vegeta be using "5% of their power." That's headcanon you made up because in Toriyama's plot he has them going full power against Broly. So IF TOEI and Toyotaro adapts the movie they will be using SSBE/BlueKK/MSSB etc due to the narration of them needing to fuse because Broly is too much for them.

No one knows if Goku can fight Jiren head up without UI at the moment. It's been TWO arcs since the TOP. We don't know how big of a jump Goku has made. So I don't want to get into theory banter like you. Falsely claiming Goku's win was a "fluke [when the series states otherwise]" just cause he can't go UI and therefore you ASSUME he can't fight Jiren as he is now. You have to do better trying to pull me into guess work.

1) We don't need to go into the theoretical that if Toei and Toyotaro adapt, that we know they make Goku and Vegeta go all-out because Toei and Toyotaro like doing changes to the original material. That being said, this entire point is pointless because you're of the opinion that the anime and manga doesn't follow use the movie, while I do.

2) If Goku's gains in power aren't worth a mention, then his jump in power is significant. It's much easier to say that he has only gotten 2x stronger instead of the few hundreds/thousands time stronger to close the gap with Geran.

And here's the definition to fluke (according to dictionary.com) "an accidental advantage; stroke of good luck." And as everybody knows from watching ToP and after, Goku didn't activate UI on purpose, he got lucky that it activated. If he could do it on purpose then he would've used it against Broli and Moro.

Goku mastered UI with intention [as explained by Whis] in order to beat Jiren. UI omen couldn't beat Jiren. That's not luck but will. So the definition doesn't apply.

Again, the PLOT stated NOWHERE that Goku and Vegeta were holding back. Therefore Goku in the anime/manga won't hold back either cause it adhere's to Toriyama's plot [stated by TOEI and Toyotaro].

You are using headcanon friend.

[Noah]

In the case of Super Saiyan 4, it has no feats proving that it can destroy a universe, or even a galaxy for that matter. In comparison, it was outright stated by the narrator and even Whis and the Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku were hitting with the force that can destroy a universe. Not just shockwaves would destroy the universe.

So in this case, the burden is on you to prove that Super Saiyan 4 can do such feats, not for us to prove Super Saiyan 4 can't do them because they were never shown.

Sure, so we should assume LSSJ Broly being able to destroy South Galaxy makes him stronger than Super Saiyan 4, because of his fEATs.

Don't know why this is a dicussion.

If we have a character like Cell that outrighted stated he could destroy the entire Solar System of course someone the plot introduces as several times stronger could do even more damage than that, no matter if it was shown or not.

[HeroR]

If SSB Goku can barely fight Ikari Broly albeit to a standstill albeit with a slowly growing edge due to better combat skill, I've no doubt that he couldn't fight Jiren at all anywhere close to full power.

Not only is Jiren an impressive martial artist in overall skill, but the power gap was so massive that the leap-frog-jump needed to cross it without Fusion or Ultra Instinct cannot be swallowed whatsoever. We're talking many thousands of times AT MINIMUM, given how even SSB Fusion is only just now solidly placed above Hakaishin-level and Ultra Instinct is a power surpassing that level as well.

Actually, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku had the edge until Broly went Super Saiyan. Which is why Freeza provoked him to transformed since he was slowly losing.

[HeroR]

In the case of Super Saiyan 4, it has no feats proving that it can destroy a universe, or even a galaxy for that matter. In comparison, it was outright stated by the narrator and even Whis and the Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku were hitting with the force that can destroy a universe. Not just shockwaves would destroy the universe.

So in this case, the burden is on you to prove that Super Saiyan 4 can do such feats, not for us to prove Super Saiyan 4 can't do them because they were never shown.

Sure, so we should assume LSSJ Broly being able to destroy South Galaxy makes him stronger than Super Saiyan 4, because of his fEATs.

Don't know why this is a dicussion.

If we have a character like Cell that outrighted stated he could destroy the entire Solar System of course someone the plot introduces as several times stronger could do even more damage than that, no matter if it was shown or not.

Legendary Super Saiyan isn't up for discussion since it doesn't take place in the same timeline of GT. Also, Broly destroyed the South Galaxy overtime, not all at once.

There is a huge different between destroying a solar system vs destroying a galaxy. For reference, our Milky Way Galaxy has over 200 billion stars and 100 billion planets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way

Even if the solar systems and galaxies in Dragon Ball isn't this dramatic in size, it is perfectly possible to one-shot a solar system, but not being able to one-snot a galaxy.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So, I had these ideas on the Super Saiyan Rose form and wanted to showcase them.

As of now, we have 2 interpretations of the form. 1 which suggests that it is a standard SSJ form for Goku Black and one which makes it comparable to SSJB.

For me, both are correct and wrong. Goku Black's nature was very unique. Already a god that is. His Saiyan Beyond God state was a real deal. He wasn't as strong as a Super Saiyan God, but being a Saiyan with godly Ki, he naturally surpassed the SSJ3 level of power his non-full God Ki Base would possess.

Now, it can be argued if Black was superior to 3, or if that was Trunks exaggerating, but if he was somewhat on par with SSJ2 Goku in the same form, then his word shouldn't be taken lightly, despite Black performing less good that SSJ2 Goku afterwards. This base form level of power could probably be considered more credible in the Manga.

Anyway, for me SSJR is basically a SSJB with a full God Ki Base. But it wouldn't really multiply Black's power as much as a SSJB. Due to his Base he would get a much lower boost in power, nearly 300 (once again given his SSJ3 comparable Base) times lesser.

Still, it is a power beyond SSJG. And when used by regular Saiyans it may even have the same multiplier. In the Manga when Black went SSJ Nad naturally went beyond SSJG in terms of power, he experienced this change in form.

So, given it's nature and it's abilities ("Super" perfect Ki control, as opposed to Blue's perfect Ki control), especially it's similar attributes to SSJG, then it might be a form much more subservient to changes and alterations. And I am saying this considering how it's Rage Enhancement pushed it beyond a Quake of Fury Blue (Rage boosted Blue) by a great margin.

So, combining this with it's SSJ-like nature and with Merged Zamasu's forms (giantification), then could it be that Black could be able to pull off similar forms? If he went beyond his Rage Boost and didn't fuse with Zamasu, just growing stronger with his infinite potential, then would he be able to incorporate power stressed forms on top of Rose?

For example a Power Stressed Super Saiyan Rose. Not necessarily a Grade 2 or Grade 3, but still an empowered form, that would even surpass Goku's and Vegeta's own forms of Blue at time (Rage boosted, Full Potential, Perfected). Besides we got to see Goku doing something similar in the Manga against Jiren with his Power Stressed Perfected Blue and with the Kaio Ken in the Anime (somewhat different but still the same principles).

Any opinions?

[SupremeKai25]

I think in this case we have to keep the anime and manga separate. In the anime Black never had Super Saiyan, so it wouldn't make sense if Rosé were his SSB. By definition, you need to know Super Saiyan to tap into Blue/Rosé, but if you don't have that then how can you turn into that godly form? So in the anime it makes sense that Black's Rosé is just his Super Saiyan form, whereas in the manga I can accept that Rosé is his SSB, since he knew Super Saiyan before going Rosé.

Your last point is actually very good, I never thought of that before. I suppose it would make sense if Black went into those stressed forms, since Fused Zamasu (who was always in Rosé) basically did that with his Giant form. If we follow the idea that Rosé is Super Saiyan, then I guess Black could also eventually unlock Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and Super Saiyan Rosé 3. If we instead follow the idea that Rosé is Super Saiyan Blue, then I could see Black reaching an Evolved form like Vegeta did in the Tournament of Power.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I think in this case we have to keep the anime and manga separate. In the anime Black never had Super Saiyan, so it wouldn't make sense if Rosé were his SSB. By definition, you need to know Super Saiyan to tap into Blue/Rosé, but if you don't have that then how can you turn into that godly form? So in the anime it makes sense that Black's Rosé is just his Super Saiyan form, whereas in the manga I can accept that Rosé is his SSB since he could become Super Saiyan.

Your last point is actually very good, I never thought of that before. I suppose it would make sense if Black went into those stressed forms, since Fused Zamasu (who was always in Rosé) basically did that with his Giant form. If we follow the idea that Rosé is just Super Saiyan, then I guess Black could also eventually unlock Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and Super Saiyan Rosé 3. If we instead follow the idea that Rosé is just Super Saiyan Blue, then I could see Black reaching an Evolved form like Vegeta did in the Tournament of Power.

Exactly. I mean Merged Zamasu kinda followed Black's transformations path. Thinking of his Halo form as stadart Rose, his grotesque/corrupted form like Rose boosted with Rage (it was Rage that pushed Zamasu to this form after all) and his giant state more like an upgraded Rose.

Imo, I can see someone who masters Rose as a form, stronger than any pure versions of Blue as I stated before, including stadart Blue, rage boosted Blue, Full Potential Blue and even Perfected Blue. More close to the realm of KK×10 Blue actually. And that's why I think that Rose is an astounding form full of amazing abilities and definitely the best efficient/power-wise. An Evolved Rose sounds totally doable.