Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:58 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:54 am
Let me also add one more thing. Against Golden Great Ape Cumber, Vegito Blue would win because he was nearly 3 times stronger. It actually troubles me why Cumber said that Jiren was his most powerful opponent yet. Could be that Vegito simply toyed with Cumber. Even so SSJ3 FP is slightly stronger than GGA, so the power difference isn't that great.
In you analysis you put SF Jiren at x10 Blue.
...except Jiren basically was playing around with x20 Kaiohken Blue(aka x20 Blue). And Blue Evolution. And #17. At the same time.


And, MORE important... Cumber fought Mastered Ultra Instinct CC-Goku.
And still thought SFP Jiren was stronger.

Which makes sense: SFP Jiren at the ToP was roughly equal to MUI Goku. Hell, he was stronger until Goku got angry.

Soo.... Blue Fusion=Serious Jiren=Third Omen?
and as others said, in the game(which is the only canon regarding Heroes characters) Vegetto Blue doesn't use Kaiohken-
therefore: Blue Fusion Kaiohken(nothing less than x20 IMHO)=SFP Jiren=MUI Goku, with Jiren stronger than MUI Goku unless Goku gets angry, like in the ToP

(him having absorbed that spur of rage is headcanon art best)
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:11 pm
Taking a look in the game's dialogues for a sec. Apparently, Fu only absorbed the energy that Cumber generated in order to become a GGA.
Not exactly: he basically bathed Cumber in Bluetz Waves of opposite frequency, nullifying the biological process that triggered the GGA transformation-
Unless there is a refractory period between transformations, not reason for Cumber to not go GGA against Jiren, unless he thought it wouldn't have been enough

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:18 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:58 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:54 am
Let me also add one more thing. Against Golden Great Ape Cumber, Vegito Blue would win because he was nearly 3 times stronger. It actually troubles me why Cumber said that Jiren was his most powerful opponent yet. Could be that Vegito simply toyed with Cumber. Even so SSJ3 FP is slightly stronger than GGA, so the power difference isn't that great.
In you analysis you put SF Jiren at x10 Blue.
...except Jiren basically was playing around with x20 Kaiohken Blue(aka x20 Blue). And Blue Evolution. And #17. At the same time.


And, MORE important... Cumber fought Mastered Ultra Instinct CC-Goku.
And still thought SFP Jiren was stronger.

Which makes sense: SFP Jiren at the ToP was roughly equal to MUI Goku. Hell, he was stronger until Goku got angry.

Soo.... Blue Fusion=Serious Jiren=Third Omen?
and as others said, in the game(which is the only canon regarding Heroes characters) Vegetto Blue doesn't use Kaiohken-
therefore: Blue Fusion Kaiohken(nothing less than x20 IMHO)=SFP Jiren=MUI Goku, with Jiren stronger than MUI Goku unless Goku gets angry, like in the ToP

(him having absorbed that spur of rage is headcanon art best)
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:11 pm
Taking a look in the game's dialogues for a sec. Apparently, Fu only absorbed the energy that Cumber generated in order to become a GGA.
Not exactly: he basically bathed Cumber in Bluetz Waves of opposite frequency, nullifying the biological process that triggered the GGA transformation-
Unless there is a refractory period between transformations, not reason for Cumber to not go GGA against Jiren, unless he thought it wouldn't have been enough
I actually put Jiren at SFP/LB at a level of 130×SSJBs. MUI Goku is stronger. At least that's what the ToP revealed. Before the rage boost, they were roughly equals, with Goku holding the edge despite having Krillin to shout all time xD

For me, MUI retained that boost afterwards. With my scale being like this:

MUI = 150×SSJB (rage boost obtained)

Blue Fusion/4 Xfusion = >150×SSJB (the Xfusion is slightly weaker) KK doubles that. And of course it makes sense for KK fusions to be stronger than MUI and Jiren. At one point they had to be superior.

Jiren SFP/LB = 130×SSJB (actually stronger than initial MUI, but never was able to finish off Goku due to the ability itself)

SSJ3 FP Cumber = 80×SSJB

Ultra Instinct Omen = 50×SSJB

GGA Cumber = 50×SSJB

Blue Evolution = 40×SSJB

SSJ3 Cumber = 40×SSJB

GoD Toppo = 30×SSJB (Hakai energy gives an advantage)

Cumber fighting MUI Goku at SSJ3 didn't really seem like an even fight. Especially considering Goku roflstomping him and then saying to himself that this power feels good ("Ah, this power") while he also get a post-fight comment from SSJ4 XGoku commenting on his amazing superiority.

As for the power of the other Core Area Warriors (in regards to Zamasu and Hearts) I had uploaded a message in the previous page or the one before. Basically, all together are below SFP/LB Jiren.

And Cumber only used SSJ3 against Golden Metal Cooler, suggesting that he wasn't a foe that would require a greater form. So yeah GM Cooler<<Jiren and Goku.

Also about GGA, I believe that he could have used it against Jiren, but as you said he probably resorted to SSJ3FP because it was a better form. Imo a stronger one too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:37 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:34 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:26 am
Miracles wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:46 pm
TOEI's writing is horrendously inconsistent. If the manga does not substantiate mortals being able to sense god Ki, no matter how strong, then it isn't true.

That isn't an inconsistent since it was more or less stated after Vegeta trained with Whis that mortal's can be trained to sense god ki without needing to be a god: https://youtu.be/3jFiV0se9FE?t=64 (Vegeta is in his base form which has no god ki).

Especially this weird 'if it isn't in the manga, then it isn't true', which is a made-up rule. Like saying that since the manga never said anything about the Namekian Book of Legend, it doesn't actual exist (which people actually argued until Toriyama directly mentioned it).
It not being in the manga means it probably wasn't in Toriyama's outline. Therefore just something either TOEI/Toyotaro did on their own.
Besides, Vegeta being able to sense god ki [when he has god ki] doesn't mean those who don't have god ki can start to sense it. TOEI doesn't pay attention some times.
That rule isn't true either since Vegito coming back wasn't Toriyama's idea and Toei had to create most of the TOP fighters and why was Jiren, Dypso, and Toppo wearing the same uniform.

Also, Vegeta was in his base form when he sensed Whis, which specifically doesn't have god ki. So again, Toei has been very constant with you can sense god ki if you're not a god if your power is high enough.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:09 am

HeroR wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:37 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:34 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:26 am



That isn't an inconsistent since it was more or less stated after Vegeta trained with Whis that mortal's can be trained to sense god ki without needing to be a god: https://youtu.be/3jFiV0se9FE?t=64 (Vegeta is in his base form which has no god ki).

Especially this weird 'if it isn't in the manga, then it isn't true', which is a made-up rule. Like saying that since the manga never said anything about the Namekian Book of Legend, it doesn't actual exist (which people actually argued until Toriyama directly mentioned it).
It not being in the manga means it probably wasn't in Toriyama's outline. Therefore just something either TOEI/Toyotaro did on their own.
Besides, Vegeta being able to sense god ki [when he has god ki] doesn't mean those who don't have god ki can start to sense it. TOEI doesn't pay attention some times.
That rule isn't true either since Vegito coming back wasn't Toriyama's idea and Toei had to create most of the TOP fighters and why was Jiren, Dypso, and Toppo wearing the same uniform.

Also, Vegeta was in his base form when he sensed Whis, which specifically doesn't have god ki. So again, Toei has been very constant with you can sense god ki if you're not a god if your power is high enough.
Vegeta has god powers and trained to sense god ki, unlike the other mortals. Also, even tho Vegetto wasn't Toriyama's idea he still has to give his approval. Which was a consensus event that happened between anime/manga. No dual agreement about mortals being able to sense god ki if strong enough. It's just another TOEI goof.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:29 am

Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:09 am
HeroR wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:37 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:34 pm

It not being in the manga means it probably wasn't in Toriyama's outline. Therefore just something either TOEI/Toyotaro did on their own.
Besides, Vegeta being able to sense god ki [when he has god ki] doesn't mean those who don't have god ki can start to sense it. TOEI doesn't pay attention some times.
That rule isn't true either since Vegito coming back wasn't Toriyama's idea and Toei had to create most of the TOP fighters and why was Jiren, Dypso, and Toppo wearing the same uniform.

Also, Vegeta was in his base form when he sensed Whis, which specifically doesn't have god ki. So again, Toei has been very constant with you can sense god ki if you're not a god if your power is high enough.
Vegeta has god powers and trained to sense god ki, unlike the other mortals. Also, even tho Vegetto wasn't Toriyama's idea he still has to give his approval. Which was a consensus event that happened between anime/manga. No dual agreement about mortals being able to sense god ki if strong enough. It's just another TOEI goof.
Vegeta's base form doesn't have god power. It's just really strong. That and Goku didn't trained with Whis and still sensed god ki despite also having no god ki in his base or Super Saiyan forms outside of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So it isn't a 'Toei goof'. They have constantly showed that high power level equal, you can sense god ki.

Again, just because it doesn't show up the manga doesn't mean it 'doesn't count'.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:07 am

HeroR wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:29 am
Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:09 am
HeroR wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:37 pm


That rule isn't true either since Vegito coming back wasn't Toriyama's idea and Toei had to create most of the TOP fighters and why was Jiren, Dypso, and Toppo wearing the same uniform.

Also, Vegeta was in his base form when he sensed Whis, which specifically doesn't have god ki. So again, Toei has been very constant with you can sense god ki if you're not a god if your power is high enough.
Vegeta has god powers and trained to sense god ki, unlike the other mortals. Also, even tho Vegetto wasn't Toriyama's idea he still has to give his approval. Which was a consensus event that happened between anime/manga. No dual agreement about mortals being able to sense god ki if strong enough. It's just another TOEI goof.
Vegeta's base form doesn't have god power. It's just really strong. That and Goku didn't trained with Whis and still sensed god ki despite also having no god ki in his base or Super Saiyan forms outside of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So it isn't a 'Toei goof'. They have constantly showed that high power level equal, you can sense god ki.

Again, just because it doesn't show up the manga doesn't mean it 'doesn't count'.
Yes it does. If the manga does not have it in word and deed then it isn't a major plot point in the story. Your still ignoring the fact that Goku and Vegeta actually have god ki and can sense god ki cause they trained with Whis. Special requirements which are actually stated within the series. These other characters do not have such prerequisites cause It was never stated. Therefore a TOEI mishap.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:04 am

Just a scattered thought, but after reading so many of the posts about Jiren and MUI Goku you realise how bad Toei butchered MUI.
Now UIO had the whole thing of actually being weaker than Jiren, and Toei worked that to a fine art, UIO was genuinely untouchable even though being much weaker than Jiren, and the only times Goku was almost caught was in the air, and that occured twice. It always seemed like one attack off of his opponent could end it, hence why the KHH block against Jiren whilst in mid air was so important (if I remember right, he still looked a little ragged after the block). Then MUI appears, the first episode he was feather fisted as hell; which is fine when thinking there's a gargantuan power difference, but then the next episode arrives and it's like Toei totally forgot what MUI was meant to represent in favour of a standard brawl. Yeah, I know Super loves a spectacle, but now the fans seem to have forgot what UI was meant to represent, and the only way UI Goku can actually win against Jiren in their eyes is if Goku is more powerful than said opponent now. All that work UIO set up was thrown to the way side for a shitty spectacle that tarnished all of the classy work prior. In this instance I much prefer manga MUI, even though UIO was awesome in the anime, the awful handling for the forms final pay off in MUI gives the manga the win overall due to it keeping Goku at a level where one shot ends it for him, but he's almost untouchable and would slowly defeat the opponent due to now being able to attack with greater precision, and a more concentrated force. Basically it stuck true to UI. But again, I would much prefer the anime if it stuck with what it was setting up as it was more of an OP ability until it was.. completed :lol:. Honestly its straight up flabbergasting and infuriating that it was set up so fucking well that they straight up ruined their own work in the penultimate episode. That final appearance just turned it into a generic SSJ transformation. Nothing special remained.

Anyway, I mentioned the manga and anime in that rant and I know how bad some of this community can be when saying one is better than the other in any instant, but it's just a general observation on the matter that one just didn't straight up fuck itself over for a spectacle. I'm not saying either is better than the other overall.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:35 am

To be fair, Ultra Instinct Goku only got tagged by Hidden Power Jiren a few key times.

The first time, he engaged in a beam struggle that Jiren could brute-force through; next, he deflected one of Goku's own blasts at him before then hitting him again in midair while he's reeling from the blow. The third time, he does get hit fair and square once with a solid kick.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:09 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:35 am
To be fair, Ultra Instinct Goku only got tagged by Hidden Power Jiren a few key times.

The first time, he engaged in a beam struggle that Jiren could brute-force through; next, he deflected one of Goku's own blasts at him before then hitting him again in midair while he's reeling from the blow. The third time, he does get hit fair and square once with a solid kick.
The difference was he always seemed to be on the losing side of a brute force battle, gone was everything that made UI unique. That attacking side of UI didn't seem super instinctive and ridiculous like the dodging side of UIO. The defensive side of his battle was worse, he seemed to be having a straight up fight like back in Z days (there was nothing special about his dodging here) compared to avoiding moves he had no right avoiding like he did as UIO.
Like I said prior, it always seemed that if UIO was tagged it was gonna be the end, yet somehow Jiren can hit Goku clean now and he just gets back up. We know for sure Jiren was always steps ahead of UIO but it truly doesn't look like he was much stronger than MUI in raw power, and if he was he should've ended it with the clean strikes as it would logically mean the gap between LB Jiren and MUI is bigger than the gap between Nomral Jiren and UIO since Jiren can tag him now, even with his improved offensive abilities which should logically make him harder to hit since you've gotta deal with both OP abilities. Honestly it just looked like a fight of two warriors very close in power, they even lock hands and try to over power each other at one point and there's barely a difference, if any in strength.
I just remember watching the fight thinking "this was the pay off, it's just a straight up Z style brawl" and that was all it was watching it again now.

MUI should've just been handled like in the manga. Weak as hell but slowly grinds him down with precise blows that wouldn't do any damage before being able to concentrate the power of his blows, and if Jiren lands it's just game over.. it was much better than this, or, ya know, do it the best way and have it be actually better than UIO from the anime instead of worse. It would've been awesome to see, and just end it like the anime did, the strain of the form screwed him up. We did sorta get a glimpse of how godly it should be at the end of 129, but it was just way too short lived.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:29 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:09 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:35 am
To be fair, Ultra Instinct Goku only got tagged by Hidden Power Jiren a few key times.

The first time, he engaged in a beam struggle that Jiren could brute-force through; next, he deflected one of Goku's own blasts at him before then hitting him again in midair while he's reeling from the blow. The third time, he does get hit fair and square once with a solid kick.
The difference was he always seemed to be on the losing side of a brute force battle, gone was everything that made UI unique. That attacking side of UI didn't seem super instinctive and ridiculous like the dodging side of UIO. The defensive side of his battle was worse, he seemed to be having a straight up fight like back in Z days (there was nothing special about his dodging here) compared to avoiding moves he had no right avoiding like he did as UIO.
Like I said prior, it always seemed that if UIO was tagged it was gonna be the end, yet somehow Jiren can hit Goku clean now and he just gets back up. We know for sure Jiren was always steps ahead of UIO but it truly doesn't look like he was much stronger than MUI in raw power, and if he was he should've ended it with the clean strikes as it would logically mean the gap between LB Jiren and MUI is bigger than the gap between Nomral Jiren and UIO since Jiren can tag him now, even with his improved offensive abilities which should logically make him harder to hit since you've gotta deal with both OP abilities. Honestly it just looked like a fight of two warriors very close in power, they even lock hands and try to over power each other at one point and there's barely a difference, if any in strength.
I just remember watching the fight thinking "this was the pay off, it's just a straight up Z style brawl" and that was all it was watching it again now.

MUI should've just been handled like in the manga. Weak as hell but slowly grinds him down with precise blows that wouldn't do any damage before being able to concentrate the power of his blows, and if Jiren lands it's just game over.. it was much better than this, or, ya know, do it the best way and have it be actually better than UIO from the anime instead of worse. It would've been awesome to see, and just end it like the anime did, the strain of the form screwed him up. We did sorta get a glimpse of how godly it should be at the end of 129, but it was just way too short lived.
I agree 100%!

Anime UI is simply another ssj transformation. It takes away from OMEN, the build up, the presitge of this universal technique/transformation that has been alluded throughout the entire series. I felt like Goku should have remained weaker than Jiren, but like you said, was able to win regardless because of technique. UI was introduced as this ability that would make you be able to virtually take no damage from an opponent regardless of how much power they had, not that it would make your power level increase. They even tried to say that OMEN was simply lacking the offensive side of the technique. They had it! They were so close!

If they would have done it properly, they could still keep people like Beerus stronger ( well, practically speaking anways) and yet Goku could still rival Beerus bc of this technique, not because Gokus power shot through the multiverse roof! Now they have to keep introducing people who are more powerful, bigger, and stronger, and stronger and stronger.

I felt Omen had a real Dragonball vibe actually, like when Goku would show up after training and have some new kickass technique that even when the goons were stronger, he was able to come out on top. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for power-ups, but felt like this time with UI, it wasn't executed properly ( anime)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzk1999 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:38 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:09 am
MUI should've just been handled like in the manga. Weak as hell but slowly grinds him down with precise blows that wouldn't do any damage before being able to concentrate the power of his blows, and if Jiren lands it's just game over.. it was much better than this, or, ya know, do it the best way and have it be actually better than UIO from the anime instead of worse. It would've been awesome to see, and just end it like the anime did, the strain of the form screwed him up. We did sorta get a glimpse of how godly it should be at the end of 129, but it was just way too short lived.
Uh, unless I’m missing something, I did not get that impression of the form from the manga. Maybe when Roshi was using his off brand version of the technique, but not for Goku. Like, what is there in the manga that makes it sound like the bolded? Any particular examples?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:11 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:38 pm

Uh, unless I’m missing something, I did not get that impression of the form from the manga. Maybe when Roshi was using his off brand version of the technique, but not for Goku. Like, what is there in the manga that makes it sound like the bolded? Any particular examples?
Whis calls Goku mistaken whilst Goku is trying overcome his wall by going for pure brute force with the KK like power up, then Roshi tells Goku that needing more plain fighting strength was stupid, which fits perfectly with what Whis said just prior in a narrative sense.
The whole concept of UI in the manga was overcoming Gokus wall through something outside of strength. That where all the lessons of his other teachers tie in aswell in the manga, and why Goku trying it overcome the wall with sheer power was a failure. Everything in the manga ties in to UI being a wall he must climb a different way.

"Attacks that exploit openings are not true strength"

MUI in the manga was precise and exploited Jirens openings, but the blows weren't powerful enough to overcome him. MUI just didn't have the firepower to defeat Jiren but could avoid his blows and counter. Goku would have definitely won if he truly perfected UI, but as we know it was taking it's toll on him, and Jiren just had way too much brute force so he could end Goku once he slipped, and even catch Gokus leg through just having sheer brute power capable of catching upto the op ability of UI. Without the UI abilities Goku wouldn't have stood a chance, the manga made the UI abilities the focal point in their battle, and thats where we can see that Goku could only hang in there due to exploiting Jirens openings, and being able to avoid him, all of Gokus attacks were counters due to both sides of UI working I guess.

So it wasn't a standard power increase in the manga. The narrative and showings, well, show that. One thing I was wrong about was the attacks of UI being more concentrated as that wasn't stated anywhere, I mean it fits, but I believe I got that from the anime when Goku in UIO could only utilise his FP through a KHH.

I don't find the manga version perfect. Sometimes it had too much facial expression for my taste, and I didn't get the feeling it was like his mind was totally severed from his body. Toyo could've done with a scene like in the anime when UIO deflects all of Keflas blasts with his eyes closed. It's something simple, but it works in showing what UI is meant to represent.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:33 pm

I'm addressing this on this thread because it seems the right one
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:44 pm

About rildo :
No, it isn't headcanon. It is a fact.
When you speak about someone without specifying in what moment of his life was that someone, you talk about the stronger/better form in which you've seen that someone.
So, Goku saying rildo was superior to buu intended that rildo was in fact stronger of the strongest version of buu, not certainly stronger than a weaker form of him. It wouldn't have any sense at all, is illogical. Rildo is,the first serious enemy in gt, and in the shonen logic every boss evil character is stronger than the previous. Rildo is the evil boss of his arc, so he what to be superior to Buuhan by logic.
If I say that android 18 is stronger than freezer, you wouldn't ever think that I mean that 18 is stronger that first form freezer but weaker than the second, if I say so you would, rightfully, think that I mean that android 18 is stronger than any form of freezer, not than a specific, weaker one.
Actually, it is because YOU are ASSUMING Goku has the same logic as you. The example does not work because Freeza has a logical in crescendo improvement due to holding back his true power, Freeza is always Freeza, that is not the case with Buu. The next Buu is not necessarily stronger than the previous one. Buuhan wasn't Kid Buu withholding power, and Grey Buu wasn't stronger than the original Fat one nor was Buucollo stronger than Buutenks.

Others could argue that Goku refers to the Buus his interlocutors know about (Fat Buu, Super Buu, Good Buu) and you couldn't prove them wrong.
Others could say Goku didn't refer to the Majin Buu, just Buu, meaning the good one that lives with them and aside of Goku, Vegeta and Uub is the strongest on Earth.
Others could say Goku considers Buu a different entity from the Buu + absorptions (one of the reasons why he decided to not fuse against Kid Buu), what he kinda is, meaning Kid Buu. And you couldn't prove them wrong either. Talking about surpassing Goku doesn't mean surpassing Goku as Vegito.
Others could argue he was talking about the Buu he knew he couldn't take on his own, meaning Super Buu.
But no one could argue it wasn't Buuhan if Goku were to say "he is even stronger than Buu when he absorbed Gohan" because he was the strongest foe from Z.

There are many Buus, the fused Buus, the good Buus, the evil Buus, the pure evil Buus. Goku did not specified which one it was, that is a fact. All of the Buus were very strong, some more than others, and you can't prove he wasn't talking about any of them, specially when Base Rildo got hit by Pan, hit her back and she took off flying, wasn't that big of a deal for Base Goku, and was one-shot by Majuub later. Something tells me that Pan wouldn't go against a +Buuhan on her own being all cocky. But that last line is headcanon.

I'm not claiming to know which one he was talking about, I'm saying you can't definitely know which one it was without making assumptions.

Regarding the saiyans power up between baby saga and s17 :

Literally every ssj outperforms majuub against s17, so it's pretty factual that everyone underwent a big power up.
Specially Goku, when everyone else was stoked by s17 , is shown competing with him using his ssj
Again, this isn't really much to go by, they were all fodder to Super 17, nobody outshined the other. You could maybe make a case for Vegeta but hardly did better than the rest, he kept getting up just to get his ass kicked once more.
And SS Goku was already stronger than the rest, in base he took down both his SS kids before, it makes sense for him to put up a better fight. But even though he threw him flying across the globe, S-17 just laughed it off and put Goku down, forcing Goku to spam ki blasts.
Uub at the start of gt had already mastered kid buu's strenght, an since gt follows the anime , kid buu is the strongest buu not counting enraged Buuhan, hakaishin ruudo is stronger than uub and rildo is stronger than ruudo, so going by that would be nonsensical thinking that rildo is stronger than a form of buu that is weaker than ruudo, even because gt perfect files itself stated that base rildo >ruudo, making rildo stronger than rage Buuhan by default and making that the only viable interpretation of what Goku said
Where was stated that Uub had already mastered Kid Buu's strenght? there wasn't enough to make conclusions based on the first act of episode 1, and I wouldn't take to heart GT PF, they stated Gohan kept training after EoZ while the directors/writers stated otherwise.
Also, what was that about SS being 2x in GT?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:52 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:33 pm
I'm addressing this on this thread because it seems the right one
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:44 pm

About rildo :
No, it isn't headcanon. It is a fact.
When you speak about someone without specifying in what moment of his life was that someone, you talk about the stronger/better form in which you've seen that someone.
So, Goku saying rildo was superior to buu intended that rildo was in fact stronger of the strongest version of buu, not certainly stronger than a weaker form of him. It wouldn't have any sense at all, is illogical. Rildo is,the first serious enemy in gt, and in the shonen logic every boss evil character is stronger than the previous. Rildo is the evil boss of his arc, so he what to be superior to Buuhan by logic.
If I say that android 18 is stronger than freezer, you wouldn't ever think that I mean that 18 is stronger that first form freezer but weaker than the second, if I say so you would, rightfully, think that I mean that android 18 is stronger than any form of freezer, not than a specific, weaker one.
Actually, it is because YOU are ASSUMING Goku has the same logic as you. The example does not work because Freeza has a logical in crescendo improvement due to holding back his true power, Freeza is always Freeza, that is not the case with Buu. The next Buu is not necessarily stronger than the previous one. Buuhan wasn't Kid Buu withholding power, and Grey Buu wasn't stronger than the original Fat one nor was Buucollo stronger than Buutenks.

Others could argue that Goku refers to the Buus his interlocutors know about (Fat Buu, Super Buu, Good Buu) and you couldn't prove them wrong.
Others could say Goku didn't refer to the Majin Buu, just Buu, meaning the good one that lives with them and aside of Goku, Vegeta and Uub is the strongest on Earth.
Others could say Goku considers Buu a different entity from the Buu + absorptions (one of the reasons why he decided to not fuse against Kid Buu), what he kinda is, meaning Kid Buu. And you couldn't prove them wrong either. Talking about surpassing Goku doesn't mean surpassing Goku as Vegito.
Others could argue he was talking about the Buu he knew he couldn't take on his own, meaning Super Buu.
But no one could argue it wasn't Buuhan if Goku were to say "he is even stronger than Buu when he absorbed Gohan" because he was the strongest foe from Z.

There are many Buus, the fused Buus, the good Buus, the evil Buus, the pure evil Buus. Goku did not specified which one it was, that is a fact. All of the Buus were very strong, some more than others, and you can't prove he wasn't talking about any of them, specially when Base Rildo got hit by Pan, hit her back and she took off flying, wasn't that big of a deal for Base Goku, and was one-shot by Majuub later. Something tells me that Pan wouldn't go against a +Buuhan on her own being all cocky. But that last line is headcanon.

I'm not claiming to know which one he was talking about, I'm saying you can't definitely know which one it was without making assumptions.

Regarding the saiyans power up between baby saga and s17 :

Literally every ssj outperforms majuub against s17, so it's pretty factual that everyone underwent a big power up.
Specially Goku, when everyone else was stoked by s17 , is shown competing with him using his ssj
Again, this isn't really much to go by, they were all fodder to Super 17, nobody outshined the other. You could maybe make a case for Vegeta but hardly did better than the rest, he kept getting up just to get his ass kicked once more.
And SS Goku was already stronger than the rest, in base he took down both his SS kids before, it makes sense for him to put up a better fight. But even though he threw him flying across the globe, S-17 just laughed it off and put Goku down, forcing Goku to spam ki blasts.
Uub at the start of gt had already mastered kid buu's strenght, an since gt follows the anime , kid buu is the strongest buu not counting enraged Buuhan, hakaishin ruudo is stronger than uub and rildo is stronger than ruudo, so going by that would be nonsensical thinking that rildo is stronger than a form of buu that is weaker than ruudo, even because gt perfect files itself stated that base rildo >ruudo, making rildo stronger than rage Buuhan by default and making that the only viable interpretation of what Goku said
Where was stated that Uub had already mastered Kid Buu's strenght? there wasn't enough to make conclusions based on the first act of episode 1, and I wouldn't take to heart GT PF, they stated Gohan kept training after EoZ while the directors/writers stated otherwise.
Also, what was that about SS being 2x in GT?
Thanks to bring that here

uub is buu's reincarnation and he trained 5 years, is more than sensed to think that He had mastered that power.
I'll research a bit better and tell you about that.
Rildo said that Goku wasn't using even half of his power in their first match, the x2 thing derives from that along with the fact that mega rildo held advantage on base Goku, and mega rildo isn't even rildo x2 since he's just rildo + sigma force, but still mega rildo, even if on a disadvantage against ssj Goku didn't get completely obliterated like the x50 multiplier would have done. That suggests this
Rildo 1
Goku 1,1
Mega rildo 1,7
Ssj Goku 2
And all just appears to be ok. Also, in gt a x50 like gap between base forms and ssj is never shown, ssj really appears to be not that stronger than the base in multiple occasions, one above all gohan in s17 arc : even a x2 boost would have made gohan stronger than majuub, and that's perfect. Plus, while both ssj goten and trunks do outperform majuub by a decent margin, in base they don't seem a lot weaker than majuub and in ssj they aren't a lot stronger than him at all, in fact they pretty much got stomped the same way.
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:06 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:33 pm
I'm addressing this on this thread because it seems the right one
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:44 pm

About rildo :
No, it isn't headcanon. It is a fact.
When you speak about someone without specifying in what moment of his life was that someone, you talk about the stronger/better form in which you've seen that someone.
So, Goku saying rildo was superior to buu intended that rildo was in fact stronger of the strongest version of buu, not certainly stronger than a weaker form of him. It wouldn't have any sense at all, is illogical. Rildo is,the first serious enemy in gt, and in the shonen logic every boss evil character is stronger than the previous. Rildo is the evil boss of his arc, so he what to be superior to Buuhan by logic.
If I say that android 18 is stronger than freezer, you wouldn't ever think that I mean that 18 is stronger that first form freezer but weaker than the second, if I say so you would, rightfully, think that I mean that android 18 is stronger than any form of freezer, not than a specific, weaker one.
Actually, it is because YOU are ASSUMING Goku has the same logic as you. The example does not work because Freeza has a logical in crescendo improvement due to holding back his true power, Freeza is always Freeza, that is not the case with Buu. The next Buu is not necessarily stronger than the previous one. Buuhan wasn't Kid Buu withholding power, and Grey Buu wasn't stronger than the original Fat one nor was Buucollo stronger than Buutenks.

Others could argue that Goku refers to the Buus his interlocutors know about (Fat Buu, Super Buu, Good Buu) and you couldn't prove them wrong.
Others could say Goku didn't refer to the Majin Buu, just Buu, meaning the good one that lives with them and aside of Goku, Vegeta and Uub is the strongest on Earth.
Others could say Goku considers Buu a different entity from the Buu + absorptions (one of the reasons why he decided to not fuse against Kid Buu), what he kinda is, meaning Kid Buu. And you couldn't prove them wrong either. Talking about surpassing Goku doesn't mean surpassing Goku as Vegito.
Others could argue he was talking about the Buu he knew he couldn't take on his own, meaning Super Buu.
But no one could argue it wasn't Buuhan if Goku were to say "he is even stronger than Buu when he absorbed Gohan" because he was the strongest foe from Z.

There are many Buus, the fused Buus, the good Buus, the evil Buus, the pure evil Buus. Goku did not specified which one it was, that is a fact. All of the Buus were very strong, some more than others, and you can't prove he wasn't talking about any of them, specially when Base Rildo got hit by Pan, hit her back and she took off flying, wasn't that big of a deal for Base Goku, and was one-shot by Majuub later. Something tells me that Pan wouldn't go against a +Buuhan on her own being all cocky. But that last line is headcanon.

I'm not claiming to know which one he was talking about, I'm saying you can't definitely know which one it was without making assumptions.

Regarding the saiyans power up between baby saga and s17 :

Literally every ssj outperforms majuub against s17, so it's pretty factual that everyone underwent a big power up.
Specially Goku, when everyone else was stoked by s17 , is shown competing with him using his ssj
Again, this isn't really much to go by, they were all fodder to Super 17, nobody outshined the other. You could maybe make a case for Vegeta but hardly did better than the rest, he kept getting up just to get his ass kicked once more.
And SS Goku was already stronger than the rest, in base he took down both his SS kids before, it makes sense for him to put up a better fight. But even though he threw him flying across the globe, S-17 just laughed it off and put Goku down, forcing Goku to spam ki blasts.
Uub at the start of gt had already mastered kid buu's strenght, an since gt follows the anime , kid buu is the strongest buu not counting enraged Buuhan, hakaishin ruudo is stronger than uub and rildo is stronger than ruudo, so going by that would be nonsensical thinking that rildo is stronger than a form of buu that is weaker than ruudo, even because gt perfect files itself stated that base rildo >ruudo, making rildo stronger than rage Buuhan by default and making that the only viable interpretation of what Goku said
Where was stated that Uub had already mastered Kid Buu's strenght? there wasn't enough to make conclusions based on the first act of episode 1, and I wouldn't take to heart GT PF, they stated Gohan kept training after EoZ while the directors/writers stated otherwise.
Also, what was that about SS being 2x in GT?
But wait, isn't that thread about dbs alone?
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:15 pm

@koitsukai
Research on uub completed. Goku said he had completed his training at the start of gt, implying that he in fact unlocked all of his pre reincarnation strenght
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:41 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:52 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:33 pm
I'm addressing this on this thread because it seems the right one
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:44 pm

About rildo :
No, it isn't headcanon. It is a fact.
When you speak about someone without specifying in what moment of his life was that someone, you talk about the stronger/better form in which you've seen that someone.
So, Goku saying rildo was superior to buu intended that rildo was in fact stronger of the strongest version of buu, not certainly stronger than a weaker form of him. It wouldn't have any sense at all, is illogical. Rildo is,the first serious enemy in gt, and in the shonen logic every boss evil character is stronger than the previous. Rildo is the evil boss of his arc, so he what to be superior to Buuhan by logic.
If I say that android 18 is stronger than freezer, you wouldn't ever think that I mean that 18 is stronger that first form freezer but weaker than the second, if I say so you would, rightfully, think that I mean that android 18 is stronger than any form of freezer, not than a specific, weaker one.




Regarding the saiyans power up between baby saga and s17 :

Literally every ssj outperforms majuub against s17, so it's pretty factual that everyone underwent a big power up.
Specially Goku, when everyone else was stoked by s17 , is shown competing with him using his ssj



Uub at the start of gt had already mastered kid buu's strenght, an since gt follows the anime , kid buu is the strongest buu not counting enraged Buuhan, hakaishin ruudo is stronger than uub and rildo is stronger than ruudo, so going by that would be nonsensical thinking that rildo is stronger than a form of buu that is weaker than ruudo, even because gt perfect files itself stated that base rildo >ruudo, making rildo stronger than rage Buuhan by default and making that the only viable interpretation of what Goku said


Also, what was that about SS being 2x in GT?
Thanks to bring that here

uub is buu's reincarnation and he trained 5 years, is more than sensed to think that He had mastered that power.
I'll research a bit better and tell you about that.
Rildo said that Goku wasn't using even half of his power in their first match, the x2 thing derives from that along with the fact that mega rildo held advantage on base Goku, and mega rildo isn't even rildo x2 since he's just rildo + sigma force, but still mega rildo, even if on a disadvantage against ssj Goku didn't get completely obliterated like the x50 multiplier would have done. That suggests this
Rildo 1
Goku 1,1
Mega rildo 1,7
Ssj Goku 2
And all just appears to be ok. Also, in gt a x50 like gap between base forms and ssj is never shown, ssj really appears to be not that stronger than the base in multiple occasions, one above all gohan in s17 arc : even a x2 boost would have made gohan stronger than majuub, and that's perfect. Plus, while both ssj goten and trunks do outperform majuub by a decent margin, in base they don't seem a lot weaker than majuub and in ssj they aren't a lot stronger than him at all, in fact they pretty much got stomped the same way.

-I don't think that thread is just about DBS, but the whole franchise. This thread seems to be about the whole franchise as well

-Ok, I can accept Uub having reached his potential, as long as it is from the original dub, I've found different dubs to just state as they please.

-I can't agree with the 2x multiplier though, even if it seems to not be that big of a boost, I'd prefer to believe Goku uses bursts of kaioken rather than downplaying the SS multiplier, mainly because it doesn't contradict the original story. I wouldn't also take those statements to heart, like "dozens" or "twice as strong", because they are just subjective statements to demonstrate big boosts or stuff like that. Can you tell me what episode was that said? because I don't remember ever hearing it.

-Can't agree with Uub being outclassed by others aside from Vegeta either. It didn't seem to me like that at all. GT treated fodder pretty much the same.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:54 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:41 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:52 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:33 pm
I'm addressing this on this thread because it seems the right one



Also, what was that about SS being 2x in GT?
Thanks to bring that here

uub is buu's reincarnation and he trained 5 years, is more than sensed to think that He had mastered that power.
I'll research a bit better and tell you about that.
Rildo said that Goku wasn't using even half of his power in their first match, the x2 thing derives from that along with the fact that mega rildo held advantage on base Goku, and mega rildo isn't even rildo x2 since he's just rildo + sigma force, but still mega rildo, even if on a disadvantage against ssj Goku didn't get completely obliterated like the x50 multiplier would have done. That suggests this
Rildo 1
Goku 1,1
Mega rildo 1,7
Ssj Goku 2
And all just appears to be ok. Also, in gt a x50 like gap between base forms and ssj is never shown, ssj really appears to be not that stronger than the base in multiple occasions, one above all gohan in s17 arc : even a x2 boost would have made gohan stronger than majuub, and that's perfect. Plus, while both ssj goten and trunks do outperform majuub by a decent margin, in base they don't seem a lot weaker than majuub and in ssj they aren't a lot stronger than him at all, in fact they pretty much got stomped the same way.

-I don't think that thread is just about DBS, but the whole franchise. This thread seems to be about the whole franchise as well

-Ok, I can accept Uub having reached his potential, as long as it is from the original dub, I've found different dubs to just state as they please.

-I can't agree with the 2x multiplier though, even if it seems to not be that big of a boost, I'd prefer to believe Goku uses bursts of kaioken rather than downplaying the SS multiplier, mainly because it doesn't contradict the original story. I wouldn't also take those statements to heart, like "dozens" or "twice as strong", because they are just subjective statements to demonstrate big boosts or stuff like that. Can you tell me what episode was that said? because I don't remember ever hearing it.

-Can't agree with Uub being outclassed by others aside from Vegeta either. It didn't seem to me like that at all. GT treated fodder pretty much the same.
The things you can't accept are all due to some headcsnons of yours, let me say.
Even if you don't want to, nothing point to the fact that Goku uses kaioken in gt, nor dialogues or guides . He just uses ssj, and if it has a x2 multiplier kaioken would simply scale out of that and being less that that, becoming more like,a percentage increase . Anyway, ssj4 being x2 is not a problem at all just by considering that kaioken isn't involved at all in gt, so, your argue utilizing that as a scapegoat falls. And anyway, as I said, getting a x50 boost would just mean that Goku would have destroyed rildo, and that isn't happened at all. In fact , rildo could still fight back even if on a disadvantage.

And even for uub, even if you don't think that the saiyans had surpassed him, facts just points out the completely opposite thing. Rewatch s17 arc, it points out what I said.
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:45 am

For me, Uub truly peaked once he finished with his OWN training after he left the lookout. Goku showed him the basics and unlocked his power from nothing to SSJ Buu saga level imo.

But only once Uub went by himself to train (he said it, "I still have a long way" or something) did he reach that Kid Buu level which he used against the Tuffleized Saiyans and Baby. Which is also why his fusion with Buu would result in a Majuub of initial power near Super Buu's level and then in a level of enraged Buuhan, peaking at that point and being a close match for SSJ Baby Vegeta (stronger than SSJ3 Goku), thus forcing the Mutant to use some of his full power to defeat him instantaneously
My posts will speak for myself! :)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:29 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:45 am
For me, Uub truly peaked once he finished with his OWN training after he left the lookout. Goku showed him the basics and unlocked his power from nothing to SSJ Buu saga level imo.

But only once Uub went by himself to train (he said it, "I still have a long way" or something) did he reach that Kid Buu level which he used against the Tuffleized Saiyans and Baby. Which is also why his fusion with Buu would result in a Majuub of initial power near Super Buu's level and then in a level of enraged Buuhan, peaking at that point and being a close match for SSJ Baby Vegeta (stronger than SSJ3 Goku), thus forcing the Mutant to use some of his full power to defeat him instantaneously
Again, headcanons. Facts puts that in a different way. Not only because you don't like them means that it isn't the case .
Really, if I can give an advice :
If you want to be a good power scaler, let go any opinion and base your mind on facts.
Again, I'm always here to help and I know that is hard to let go a mindset , specially if you have it from a long time.
But you know what? It is only matter of who helps you. If I did it, you can too.
Personally, if I were alone I wouldn't be as good as a scaler as I am, I owe all to million friends that helped me giving me the right way to see things.
From what I see you're even younger than me, so change your mind shouldn't be that hard
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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