Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Hugo Boss
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:58 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:20 am In the first video he actually effotlessly stomped both Goku and Vegeta. And by stomped, I mean "oneshot them right back into base form". So no, Zamasu in the anime was definitely stronger than two Super Saiyans Blue. Vegeta managed to overwhelm him only because he was just messing around, whereas Goku did defeat him but only after literally breaking his limits and his limbs.
Vegeta and Trunks overpowered Zamas together, that’s what implies Zamas is weaker than two Super Saiyan Blue level beings in the anime. Goku continued further at the cost of crippling his arms, so his kamehameha possibly enhanced his battle power at that degree as well. When he used kaioken, he probably doubled his strength and managed to overwhelm Zamas again. So, at the beginning, it doesn’t seem like they can pull it off, but after using their powered-up moves combined or doubled they can.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:11 pm

My take is that Merged Zamasu when his body isn't mutated IS the "base" version, halo or not.

He didn't really get stronger throughout it all, just used fancier moves. In the manga, he has no halo but is functionally the same.

It's when he decides to power up in the anime after getting his halo broken, particularly his corrupt purple half, where his power truly spikes. In that case, his arm is what's gaining the strength at first and was equal to SSB Vegito. It was only when he went giant that the rest of his body caught up to his corrupt half and was a true equal to Vegito,

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:01 pm

Vegeta and Trunks overpowered Zamas together
Zamasu was holding back. Vegeta himself noted this earlier in the episode. He was just playing with them. You can see it very clearly in his behaviour throughout the fight. He starts super confident, then is shocked when his Holy Wrath is being pushed back. After the beam struggle, Zamasu oneshot Vegeta, and Trunks was basically out of the fight too.
Goku continued further at the cost of crippling his arms, so his kamehameha possibly enhanced his battle power at that degree as well. When he used kaioken, he probably doubled his strength and managed to overwhelm Zamas again. So, at the beginning, it doesn’t seem like they can pull it off, but after using their powered-up moves combined or doubled they can.
This, however, is different. In this case, we do have Zamasu fighting seriously (which is clear in the fact that he is no longer so smug and composed like before). Goku did manage to overwhelm him after making the biggest Kamehameha he ever created up until that point. Goku then moved in to attack him WHILE Zamasu was fazed/confused by literally half his face being damaged. In addition, Zamasu was not expecting the Kaio-ken, he probably did not even know about its existence. He was caught off guard, which is most likely why Goku was able to overpower him in the end and destroy his Barrier of Light.

Point is, Zamasu was overpowered by Goku due to a chain of unfortunate events, not due to being weaker -- because again, in the previous episode he was able to oneshot two Super Saiyans Blue. Goku broke his limits but he was still in Super Saiyan Blue AND he was alone (no Vegeta to help him around) -- So his increase in strength couldn't have been big enough to make a considerable difference, especially based on the feats Zamasu performed in the previous episode.
My take is that Merged Zamasu when his body isn't mutated IS the "base" version, halo or not.
I agree. It would be a silly stretch to distinguish between "Base" Zamasu and "Halo" Zamasu. When Zamasu created the Barrier of Light, he wasn't really transforming. He just condensed his power into a halo that allowed him to strike at his opponents from a great distance.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:54 pm

I never told that Zamas wasn’t holding back though. Just reiterating that halo version is what can be overpowered by two Super Saiyans Blue. Zamas at full power in the anime obviously is much stronger, since he can handle Vegetto Blue for a while.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:28 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:54 pm I never told that Zamas wasn’t holding back though. Just reiterating that halo version is what can be overpowered by two Super Saiyans Blue. Zamas at full power in the anime obviously is much stronger, since he can handle Vegetto Blue for a while.
But that's my point. Halo Fused Zamasu CAN be overpowered by a Super Saiyan Blue (under specific circumstances), but at the same time in episode 65 he was able to oneshot two Super Saiyans Blue. And for this reason, I disagree with the notion that the anime stayed true to Toryiama's original outline for Fused Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:03 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:28 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:54 pm I never told that Zamas wasn’t holding back though. Just reiterating that halo version is what can be overpowered by two Super Saiyans Blue. Zamas at full power in the anime obviously is much stronger, since he can handle Vegetto Blue for a while.
But that's my point. Halo Fused Zamasu CAN be overpowered by a Super Saiyan Blue (under specific circumstances), but at the same time in episode 65 he was able to oneshot two Super Saiyans Blue. And for this reason, I disagree with the notion that the anime stayed true to Toryiama's original outline for Fused Zamasu.
Agreed. With their normal power they stand no chance.

It's only with their amped attacks that they managed to face him and hell Zamasu tanked Vegeta and Trunks attack. It took the combination of Goku's limit breaking Kamehameha and Zamasu's own attack exploding on him to damage just his face. We also don't know what version of KK Goku used.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:54 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:03 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:28 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:54 pm I never told that Zamas wasn’t holding back though. Just reiterating that halo version is what can be overpowered by two Super Saiyans Blue. Zamas at full power in the anime obviously is much stronger, since he can handle Vegetto Blue for a while.
But that's my point. Halo Fused Zamasu CAN be overpowered by a Super Saiyan Blue (under specific circumstances), but at the same time in episode 65 he was able to oneshot two Super Saiyans Blue. And for this reason, I disagree with the notion that the anime stayed true to Toryiama's original outline for Fused Zamasu.
Agreed. With their normal power they stand no chance.

It's only with their amped attacks that they managed to face him and hell Zamasu tanked Vegeta and Trunks attack. It took the combination of Goku's limit breaking Kamehameha and Zamasu's own attack exploding on him to damage just his face. We also don't know what version of KK Goku used.
True. I actually never noticed that the Holy Wrath exploded on Zamasu's face. That must have played a big factor in damaging him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:05 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:28 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:54 pm I never told that Zamas wasn’t holding back though. Just reiterating that halo version is what can be overpowered by two Super Saiyans Blue. Zamas at full power in the anime obviously is much stronger, since he can handle Vegetto Blue for a while.
But that's my point. Halo Fused Zamasu CAN be overpowered by a Super Saiyan Blue (under specific circumstances), but at the same time in episode 65 he was able to oneshot two Super Saiyans Blue. And for this reason, I disagree with the notion that the anime stayed true to Toryiama's original outline for Fused Zamasu.
The original post is particularly addressing that specific circumstance, not the whole. Taking in consideration everything else, I would come to the same conclusion as you.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:08 pm

TOEI Dropped the ball on merged Zamas. They had him get overpowered [and injured] by Blue Goku and Vegeta a few times. Then go on and fight equally with Vegetto, ludicrous writing.

The manga did it right with Vegetto. Outright dominating Zamas then fighting equally with Blue, as Toriyama originally wanted.
Last edited by Miracles on Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:30 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:08 pm Guys TOEI Dropped the ball on merged Zamas. They had him get overpowered [and injured] by Blue Goku and Vegeta a few times. Then go on and have him fight equally with Vegetto is ludicrous writing.

The manga did it right with Vegetto just outright dominating Zamas and then have him fightign equally with Blue as Toriyama originally wanted.
I see 0 issues with how Zamasu was handled.

Every issue you said has been explained.

I disagree about Vegetto. Having them on par gave us a better fight. One sided fights are boring.

Vegetto on the manga was horrible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:30 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:08 pm Guys TOEI Dropped the ball on merged Zamas. They had him get overpowered [and injured] by Blue Goku and Vegeta a few times. Then go on and have him fight equally with Vegetto is ludicrous writing.

The manga did it right with Vegetto just outright dominating Zamas and then have him fightign equally with Blue as Toriyama originally wanted.
I see 0 issues with how Zamasu was handled.

Every issue you said has been explained.

I disagree about Vegetto. Having them on par gave us a better fight. One sided fights are boring.

Vegetto on the manga was horrible.
That's the point. The Vegetto vs Zamas was one sided in the manga for good writing sake. Just so full power Blue Goku vs Zamas fighting evenly can be logical. There was no explanations as to why Zamas was getting overpowered/injured by single then going to handle Vegetto evenly in the anime. That's just bad writing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:47 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:30 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:08 pm Guys TOEI Dropped the ball on merged Zamas. They had him get overpowered [and injured] by Blue Goku and Vegeta a few times. Then go on and have him fight equally with Vegetto is ludicrous writing.

The manga did it right with Vegetto just outright dominating Zamas and then have him fightign equally with Blue as Toriyama originally wanted.
I see 0 issues with how Zamasu was handled.

Every issue you said has been explained.

I disagree about Vegetto. Having them on par gave us a better fight. One sided fights are boring.

Vegetto on the manga was horrible.
That's the point. The Vegetto vs Zamas was one sided in the manga for good writing sake. Just so full power Blue Goku vs Zamas fighting evenly can be logical. There was no explanations as to why Zamas was getting overpowered/injured by single then going to handle Vegetto evenly in the anime. That's just bad writing.
Zamasu became more powerful when he hit himself with the Light of Divine Justice. His body has Black's cells, allowing him to become stronger through anger and pain.

Zamasu was overpowered by Goku because he broke his limits. It's not the first time Goku breaks his limits and wins against impossible odds.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:50 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:47 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:30 pm
I see 0 issues with how Zamasu was handled.

Every issue you said has been explained.

I disagree about Vegetto. Having them on par gave us a better fight. One sided fights are boring.

Vegetto on the manga was horrible.
That's the point. The Vegetto vs Zamas was one sided in the manga for good writing sake. Just so full power Blue Goku vs Zamas fighting evenly can be logical. There was no explanations as to why Zamas was getting overpowered/injured by single then going to handle Vegetto evenly in the anime. That's just bad writing.
Zamasu became more powerful when he hit himself with the Light of Divine Justice. His body has Black's cells, allowing him to become stronger through anger and pain.

Zamasu was overpowered by Goku because he broke his limits. It's not the first time Goku breaks his limits and wins against impossible odds.
Except your reasons are not explained in the story by TOEI. As a matter of fact, they say the light was Zamas failing to regenerate himself after getting injured by a tired Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:52 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:50 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:47 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm

That's the point. The Vegetto vs Zamas was one sided in the manga for good writing sake. Just so full power Blue Goku vs Zamas fighting evenly can be logical. There was no explanations as to why Zamas was getting overpowered/injured by single then going to handle Vegetto evenly in the anime. That's just bad writing.
Zamasu became more powerful when he hit himself with the Light of Divine Justice. His body has Black's cells, allowing him to become stronger through anger and pain.

Zamasu was overpowered by Goku because he broke his limits. It's not the first time Goku breaks his limits and wins against impossible odds.
Except your reasons are not explained in the story by TOEI. As a matter of fact, they say the light was Zamas failing to regenerate himself after getting injured by a tired Goku.
Why would they need to explain it again when literally -in the previous episode- we have Black aknowledging how he can become much stronger by injuring himself?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:54 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:30 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:08 pm Guys TOEI Dropped the ball on merged Zamas. They had him get overpowered [and injured] by Blue Goku and Vegeta a few times. Then go on and have him fight equally with Vegetto is ludicrous writing.

The manga did it right with Vegetto just outright dominating Zamas and then have him fightign equally with Blue as Toriyama originally wanted.
I see 0 issues with how Zamasu was handled.

Every issue you said has been explained.

I disagree about Vegetto. Having them on par gave us a better fight. One sided fights are boring.

Vegetto on the manga was horrible.
That's the point. The Vegetto vs Zamas was one sided in the manga for good writing sake. Just so full power Blue Goku vs Zamas fighting evenly can be logical. There was no explanations as to why Zamas was getting overpowered/injured by single then going to handle Vegetto evenly in the anime. That's just bad writing.
Goku Black is part of Merged Zamasu so by hitting himself he powered up a lot. Just like Black did when getting damaged since he's still a Saiyan.

The scene is very clear.

The manga didnt have good writting. Now thanks to it, Vegetto is clearly inferior to Gogeta in that continuity since he couldn't even last 5 minutes against a very week opponent.

In the anime we can explain him defusing way better since Zamasu was on par with him so Vegetto got tired way quicker. Making him not inferior to Gogeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:18 pm

So in the new chapter it's revealed that Merus has been hiding his power from everyone for an unknown reason. He also knows what Ultra Instinct is and has his own ROSAT.
Image
Can't believe that "Merus is an angel because white hair" theory will probably turn out to be true.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:52 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:50 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:47 pm

Zamasu became more powerful when he hit himself with the Light of Divine Justice. His body has Black's cells, allowing him to become stronger through anger and pain.

Zamasu was overpowered by Goku because he broke his limits. It's not the first time Goku breaks his limits and wins against impossible odds.
Except your reasons are not explained in the story by TOEI. As a matter of fact, they say the light was Zamas failing to regenerate himself after getting injured by a tired Goku.
Why would they need to explain it again when literally -in the previous episode- we have Black aknowledging how he can become much stronger by injuring himself?
For consistency sake. There is no true answer whether the Saiyan Zenkai worked since he fused with Zamas a non saiyan. Just like he lost immortality when he fused with a mortal.
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:54 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:30 pm
I see 0 issues with how Zamasu was handled.

Every issue you said has been explained.

I disagree about Vegetto. Having them on par gave us a better fight. One sided fights are boring.

Vegetto on the manga was horrible.
That's the point. The Vegetto vs Zamas was one sided in the manga for good writing sake. Just so full power Blue Goku vs Zamas fighting evenly can be logical. There was no explanations as to why Zamas was getting overpowered/injured by single then going to handle Vegetto evenly in the anime. That's just bad writing.
Goku Black is part of Merged Zamasu so by hitting himself he powered up a lot. Just like Black did when getting damaged since he's still a Saiyan.

The scene is very clear.

The manga didnt have good writting. Now thanks to it, Vegetto is clearly inferior to Gogeta in that continuity since he couldn't even last 5 minutes against a very week opponent.

In the anime we can explain him defusing way better since Zamasu was on par with him so Vegetto got tired way quicker. Making him not inferior to Gogeta.
Your not making canoncial sense. How does Vegetto pwning zamas in the manga make him inferior to Gogeta? There was no time limit for Vegeto becoming undone in both anime/manga but an hour.

Goku Black becoming stronger while fused with a mortal is headcanon too. Since Zmaas lost his immortality fusing with a mortal that does not mean Black can still grow stronger. TOEI has to note that for consistency sake which they didn't, hence why it's bad writing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:41 pm

For consistency sake. There is no true answer whether the Saiyan Zenkai worked since he fused with Zamas a non saiyan. Just like he lost immortality when he fused with a mortal.
He did not lose his immortality. It was still there, only it was hindered by having a Saiyan body. If he lost his immortality, he would have been finished in episode 66.

Fused Zamasu remarks upon his birth that his strength has no limit. In the sub, Gowasu mentions how Zamasu's power expanded to no end upon fusing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:43 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:25 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:52 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:50 pm
Except your reasons are not explained in the story by TOEI. As a matter of fact, they say the light was Zamas failing to regenerate himself after getting injured by a tired Goku.
Why would they need to explain it again when literally -in the previous episode- we have Black aknowledging how he can become much stronger by injuring himself?
For consistency sake. There is no true answer whether the Saiyan Zenkai worked since he fused with Zamas a non saiyan. Just like he lost immortality when he fused with a mortal.
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:54 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm

That's the point. The Vegetto vs Zamas was one sided in the manga for good writing sake. Just so full power Blue Goku vs Zamas fighting evenly can be logical. There was no explanations as to why Zamas was getting overpowered/injured by single then going to handle Vegetto evenly in the anime. That's just bad writing.
Goku Black is part of Merged Zamasu so by hitting himself he powered up a lot. Just like Black did when getting damaged since he's still a Saiyan.

The scene is very clear.

The manga didnt have good writting. Now thanks to it, Vegetto is clearly inferior to Gogeta in that continuity since he couldn't even last 5 minutes against a very week opponent.

In the anime we can explain him defusing way better since Zamasu was on par with him so Vegetto got tired way quicker. Making him not inferior to Gogeta.
Your not making canoncial sense. How does Vegetto pwning zamas in the manga make him inferior to Gogeta? There was no time limit for Vegeto becoming undone in both anime/manga but an hour.

Goku Black becoming stronger while fused with a mortal is headcanon too. Since Zmaas lost his immortality fusing with a mortal that does not mean Black can still grow stronger. TOEI has to note that for consistency sake which they didn't, hence why it's bad writing.
Because he defused in less than 5 minutes without doing any effort at all while Gogeta didn't.

In the anime it makes sense for him to defuse since he's fighting an immortal being that doesn't tire so he ran out of energy way too quickly.

And yes, Zamasu didnt lose his immortality. He's body just got screwed up but thanks to it, it got stronger.

Trunks didnt even destroyed his body, that was all his own doing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:55 pm

Yeah, Merged Zamasu in the anime very specifically notes that he was too weak after getting bodied by Goku going all out and destroying himself in the process.

He then powers himself up with his weird magenta lightning, which allows his purple corrupted half (a visual indicator of his mortal half that grows in power like Goku Black did) to somewhat fight SSB Vegito. Afterwords, the rest of his body bulks up and he becomes stronger yet again, becoming a true equal to SSB Vegito in power but not in speed.

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