Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:11 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:18 pm
So in the new chapter it's revealed that Merus has been hiding his power from everyone for an unknown reason. He also knows what Ultra Instinct is and has his own ROSAT.
It would be interesting to see what he is truly capable of. We never really saw which kind of techniques the angels can perform aside from their precise movements and magic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:06 am

Using UI at will means it's going to be used as hype fodder for future villains. This also means Beerus will go the way of every "Goku rival" not named Vegeta and become totally irrelevant

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:01 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:54 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm


That's the point. The Vegetto vs Zamas was one sided in the manga for good writing sake. Just so full power Blue Goku vs Zamas fighting evenly can be logical. There was no explanations as to why Zamas was getting overpowered/injured by single then going to handle Vegetto evenly in the anime. That's just bad writing.
Goku Black is part of Merged Zamasu so by hitting himself he powered up a lot. Just like Black did when getting damaged since he's still a Saiyan.

The scene is very clear.

The manga didnt have good writting. Now thanks to it, Vegetto is clearly inferior to Gogeta in that continuity since he couldn't even last 5 minutes against a very week opponent.

In the anime we can explain him defusing way better since Zamasu was on par with him so Vegetto got tired way quicker. Making him not inferior to Gogeta.
Erm.. dude, the manga spells it our for us why it happened. So instead of just blindly hating let's remember that Vegetto unfused because he powered up a full power attack to wipe out an immortal being, he also makes it known that he was gonna fight so there wouldn't even be a trace for him to regenerate from. If Zamasu wasn't immortal it would be different. In the manga it can actually be argued that Base Vegetto around regular SSJB (which puts him closer to base Gogeta for some people), and that's before achieving his FP by eating a senzu. But anyway, ignoring all of that let's just get to the main point as to why, in the mangas continuity, Gogeta's stronger. It's because Vegetto wasn't using CSSJB. That's really the end all be all, so regular SSJB is probably stronger than Beerus according to Shin, but CSSJB Vegetto would be well ahead, and fit in with Gogeta in the manga continuity.

The animes biggest issue with Zamasu was how he could go from fighting Goku, to SSJB Vegetto then to not speed blitzing Trunks, and instantly overpowering him (even though he slowed down, the gap should be way too large for him to now be slower than Trunks) . Then an awfully weak Genki Dama apparently makes Trunks stronger than even Vegetto. Obviously the lack of explanation is there in the anime, and that seems to be a valid point since you straight up ignore the manga even when it explains things.

We know a Genki Dama from a dying planet and a few earthlings isn't that strong btw. We've seen a Genki dama against Vegeta, against Freeza, and the one against Buu straight up confirms that, as that was made up from way more yet wasn't capable of finishing a being as weak as Buu (in the grand scheme of things) for a long time. So yeah, that Genki Dama shouldn't have been enough to defeat Buu let alone a being who should be 100s-1000 X stronger than Trunks, and even more times than that in some people's eyes with how powerful fusion is. Also this Zamasu didn't even need to regenerate from a final KHH from Vegetto, so yeah, there's that to prove he was an absolute tank when going into the fight with Trunks.
Now you can try to explain that away, but again it brings me back to; why will you argue against the manga when there's an actual explanation, but stick up for the anime when there isn't? It's straight up unfair, and if that's genuinely how you look at that it doesn't seem like there's going to be a discussion to be had.

To finish this off, the Manga isn't great.. there's a lot of issues. I don't favour the anime or manga overall, they both have their respective issues.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:30 am

to not speed blitzing Trunks, and instantly overpowering him (even though he slowed down, the gap should be way too large for him to now be slower than Trunks).
Which he did do at the beginning of their final fight. He overpowered him and was about to kill him, but Trunks blocked his attack.
Then an awfully weak Genki Dama apparently makes Trunks stronger than even Vegetto.
It's not that he was stronger than Vegito, it's that he capitalized on the damage Vegito dealt. Vegito already hurt Zamasu a lot with the Final Kamehameha and his final punch (which destroyed Zamasu's face for a moment), and this is on top of the long and tiresome battle they had, which exhausted Zamasu. So when Trunks entered the fray, Zamasu was already very tired and weakened, and his flawed immortality could not make up for it.

Trunks being able to finish off Zamasu ties into what Gowasu said earlier in the episode. He stated that the only way to defeat Zamasu was by hurting him enough to shatter the unstable balance between his immortal soul and mortal body. To disrupt his regeneration so much that he wouldn't be able to recover, basically. That's what both Vegito and Trunks did, with Vegito playing a big role in it (because even if the Final Kamehameha seemingly did nothing, you can't just ignore the fact that Vegito was giving Zamasu no window to breathe for a long time), and Trunks simply finishing off what Vegito started.

Finally, Trunks didn't actually destroy Zamasu. He just cleaved him in half. It was Zamasu himself who cast aside his mortal body to embrace his new ethereal form, and this is shown by the fact that Zamasu was still alive for several moments after being cut in half by Trunks. This, again, was their goal. To disrupt Zamasu's regeneration. So even if Zamasu was still alive, he was cut in half and could no longer regenerate.

To sum this up, if Vegito had never fought Zamasu, Trunks wouldn't have accomplished anything. Trunks fought Zamasu when he was exhausted and his regeneration extremely weakened.
Also this Zamasu didn't even need to regenerate from a final KHH from Vegetto, so yeah,
But he had to regenerate from his final punch. He had to regenerate from the "X" stab wounds in his chest from Trunks. Also, we don't actually know what the Final Kamehameha did to Zamasu. For all we know, it could have blown up half of him and he just regenerated it in two seconds. Even if it didn't blow him up, it still weakened his already unstable balance, like I was explaining earlier.
why will you argue against the manga when there's an actual explanation, but stick up for the anime when there isn't?
Except that there is an actual explanation in the anime, it just isn't conveyed very well.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:11 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:43 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:25 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:52 pm


Why would they need to explain it again when literally -in the previous episode- we have Black aknowledging how he can become much stronger by injuring himself?
For consistency sake. There is no true answer whether the Saiyan Zenkai worked since he fused with Zamas a non saiyan. Just like he lost immortality when he fused with a mortal.
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:54 pm

Goku Black is part of Merged Zamasu so by hitting himself he powered up a lot. Just like Black did when getting damaged since he's still a Saiyan.

The scene is very clear.

The manga didnt have good writting. Now thanks to it, Vegetto is clearly inferior to Gogeta in that continuity since he couldn't even last 5 minutes against a very week opponent.

In the anime we can explain him defusing way better since Zamasu was on par with him so Vegetto got tired way quicker. Making him not inferior to Gogeta.
Your not making canoncial sense. How does Vegetto pwning zamas in the manga make him inferior to Gogeta? There was no time limit for Vegeto becoming undone in both anime/manga but an hour.

Goku Black becoming stronger while fused with a mortal is headcanon too. Since Zmaas lost his immortality fusing with a mortal that does not mean Black can still grow stronger. TOEI has to note that for consistency sake which they didn't, hence why it's bad writing.
Because he defused in less than 5 minutes without doing any effort at all while Gogeta didn't.

In the anime it makes sense for him to defuse since he's fighting an immortal being that doesn't tire so he ran out of energy way too quickly.

And yes, Zamasu didnt lose his immortality. He's body just got screwed up but thanks to it, it got stronger.

Trunks didnt even destroyed his body, that was all his own doing.
Vegetto and Gowasu outright stated Zamas is no longer immortal. This was proven when he felt pain and was defeated by attacks. Trunks attack not able to kill Zamas doesn't prove Zamas is immortal but just wasn't strong enough to do so. So saying Zamas was still immortal is headcanon.

Vegetto defusing before an hour due to "having too much power" in the manga does not prove Gogeta is physically stronger than Vegetto due to a longer time limit. Especially since the amount of time Vegetto used was not even given.So trying to use Vegetto defusing from having too much power as bad writing by comparing it to Gogeta's fusion timetable is futile.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:27 am

Vegetto and Gowasu outright stated Zamas is no longer immortal. This was proven when he felt pain and was defeated by attacks. Trunks not able to kill Zamas doesn't prove Zamas is immortal but just wasn't strong enough to kill him. Saying Zamas was still immortal is headcanon.
His BODY was no longer fully immortal (half of it still was though, since Future Zamasu was one of the fusées). His soul was very clearly still immortal, as can be seen in episode 67. Gowasu never said Zamasu was no longer immortal, he just said his mortal side was affecting his immortal side.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:04 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:30 am
Your whole argument revolves around Trunks somehow being capable of actually being able to touch Zamasu whilst still being massively weaker. Yeah Zamasus fusion was unstable, and yes you can say that the countless attacks pushed it more to its limit, but it's hard to deny that the final attack by Trunks was portrayed as anything greater than what was shown prior (even the narrative is pushing this) and he straight up overpowered Merged Zamasu. Again, that's the biggest part, even Vegetto couldn't do that, he was faster when Zamasu bulked but he couldn't out muscle him.
I believe Gowasu said it will take an attack greater than anything the cast had shown prior to overcome his regeneration, and from what we see after it's only Trunks that manages to do that. Without a mention of Zamasus power dropping by likely 100s of X it's unfathomable that it could happen. Trunks has to be close in power to hang there at all, yet we can't say Zamasus power dropped without anything stating such as the drop is too huge to not be mentioned.
Now let's change this up and have the same thing happening when Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin are fighting Final Form Freeza on Namek. It straight up isn't possible, infact they couldn't come close to him or even see him moving besides Vegeta, but we know he was close to the level of suppression Freeza was showing there. Now this gap here is much, much larger that, so imagine replacing suppressed Freeza with 100%, and then somehow, even though the cast stood no chance before when the gap wasn't too large, they somehow managed to block shots and overpower him at 100%. Absurd right? Well this is that, but with an even larger gap and here there's only one fighter so it's even easier to not be caught by surprise. This kind of situation is shown numerous times in DB It's just not possible to come close to characters of that level, yet somehow.. Trunks straight up powered through Zamasu with the Genki sword and managed to block a few blows before getting that Genki sword. His sword should've been instantly shattered when he blocked Zamasu the first time, it was made up of ki right, a much weaker ki than Zamasus, so the clash should end in it going bye bye. But realistically Zamasu would kill Trunks before he could react.
The manga overcame this by Trunks slicing them from behind when they were defusing.

So basically if Zamasus power was dropping to a level close to Trunks' (even though nobody said it) close to the end of the Vegetto fight, Vegetto should've ended Zamasu with a total casual punch (massive gaps in power levels here).. if it didn't and Zamasu is still close to Vegetto, which is what was portrayed, then Trunks dies instantly. That's really how it hoes using old DB logic. I still use that since that's what a continuation uses as the base. If it can't use the original in the slightest something's wrong with the continuation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:35 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:04 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:30 am
Your whole argument revolves around Trunks somehow being capable of actually being able to touch Zamasu whilst still being massively weaker. Yeah Zamasus fusion was unstable, and yes you can say that the countless attacks pushed it more to its limit, but it's hard to deny that the final attack by Trunks was portrayed as anything greater than what was shown prior (even the narrative is pushing this) and he straight up overpowered Merged Zamasu. Again, that's the biggest part, even Vegetto couldn't do that, he was faster when Zamasu bulked but he couldn't out muscle him.
I believe Gowasu said it will take an attack greater than anything the cast had shown prior to overcome his regeneration, and from what we see after it's only Trunks that manages to do that. Without a mention of Zamasus power dropping by likely 100s of X it's unfathomable that it could happen. Trunks has to be close in power to hang there at all, yet we can't say Zamasus power dropped without anything stating such as the drop is too huge to not be mentioned.
Now let's change this up and have the same thing happening when Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin are fighting Final Form Freeza on Namek. It straight up isn't possible, infact they couldn't come close to him or even see him moving besides Vegeta, but we know he was close to the level of suppression Freeza was showing there. Now this gap here is much, much larger that, so imagine replacing suppressed Freeza with 100%, and then somehow, even though the cast stood no chance before when the gap wasn't too large, they somehow managed to block shots and overpower him at 100%. Absurd right? Well this is that, but with an even larger gap and here there's only one fighter so it's even easier to not be caught by surprise. This kind of situation is shown numerous times in DB It's just not possible to come close to characters of that level, yet somehow.. Trunks straight up powered through Zamasu with the Genki sword and managed to block a few blows before getting that Genki sword. His sword should've been instantly shattered when he blocked Zamasu the first time, it was made up of ki right, a much weaker ki than Zamasus, so the clash should end in it going bye bye. But realistically Zamasu would kill Trunks before he could react.
The manga overcame this by Trunks slicing them from behind when they were defusing.

So basically if Zamasus power was dropping to a level close to Trunks' (even though nobody said it) close to the end of the Vegetto fight, Vegetto should've ended Zamasu with a total casual punch (massive gaps in power levels here).. if it didn't and Zamasu is still close to Vegetto, which is what was portrayed, then Trunks dies instantly. That's really how it hoes using old DB logic. I still use that since that's what a continuation uses as the base. If it can't use the original in the slightest something's wrong with the continuation.
You won't see me disagreeing with you there. This is what I'm saying. The problem is the execution. They knew that Trunks had to defeat Zamasu, and they tried to explain how Zamasu could be defeated, but they just rushed to that point. What they should have done is stretch the Vegito and Trunks vs. Zamasu fights across one or two more episodes, which would have given them more time to show how Zamasu is falling apart, how Vegito is severely weakening his immortality, how Trunks is able to contend with him in his weakened state, etc.

Gowasu's explenation is fine, I actually love it. The idea that their only chance of victory is by shattering the balance between Zamasu's immortal soul and mortal body. The problem is that the episode is rushed. There are too many fights clumped in a single episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:51 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:35 am
You won't see me disagreeing with you there. This is what I'm saying. The problem is the execution. They knew that Trunks had to defeat Zamasu, and they tried to explain how Zamasu could be defeated, but they just rushed to that point. What they should have done is stretch the Vegito and Trunks vs. Zamasu fights across one or two more episodes, which would have given them more time to show how Zamasu is falling apart, how Vegito is severely weakening his immortality, how Trunks is able to contend with him in his weakened state, etc.

Gowasu's explenation is fine, I actually love it. The idea that their only chance of victory is by shattering the balance between Zamasu's immortal soul and mortal body. The problem is that the episode is rushed. There are too many fights clumped in a single episode.
I get you. It was just handled so poorly for me, and it's a true shame. The manga finale isn't the greatest, but having Trunks doing it by a sneak attack would've been the most logical conclusion. I just wish they would've put that in the anime, or something akin to that. But one things for sure, Zamasu and Trunks shouldn't have ever got into a physical skirmish without Trunks being the one to die instantly. I know it's the ending with the bigger spectacle, but sometimes keeping things toned down,and consistent to the DB world is so much better.
I've gotta say I would've loved to see a big battle between Vegetto and Zamasu, and when the hand turned to Trunks' we could buy it due to Zamasu maybe literally struggling to keep himself together, and also being massively weaker than he was before, both in turn helping Trunks to win.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:11 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:43 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:25 pm


For consistency sake. There is no true answer whether the Saiyan Zenkai worked since he fused with Zamas a non saiyan. Just like he lost immortality when he fused with a mortal.

Your not making canoncial sense. How does Vegetto pwning zamas in the manga make him inferior to Gogeta? There was no time limit for Vegeto becoming undone in both anime/manga but an hour.

Goku Black becoming stronger while fused with a mortal is headcanon too. Since Zmaas lost his immortality fusing with a mortal that does not mean Black can still grow stronger. TOEI has to note that for consistency sake which they didn't, hence why it's bad writing.
Because he defused in less than 5 minutes without doing any effort at all while Gogeta didn't.

In the anime it makes sense for him to defuse since he's fighting an immortal being that doesn't tire so he ran out of energy way too quickly.

And yes, Zamasu didnt lose his immortality. He's body just got screwed up but thanks to it, it got stronger.

Trunks didnt even destroyed his body, that was all his own doing.
Vegetto and Gowasu outright stated Zamas is no longer immortal. This was proven when he felt pain and was defeated by attacks. Trunks attack not able to kill Zamas doesn't prove Zamas is immortal but just wasn't strong enough to do so. So saying Zamas was still immortal is headcanon.

Vegetto defusing before an hour due to "having too much power" in the manga does not prove Gogeta is physically stronger than Vegetto due to a longer time limit. Especially since the amount of time Vegetto used was not even given.So trying to use Vegetto defusing from having too much power as bad writing by comparing it to Gogeta's fusion timetable is futile.
1) Just because you are immortal doesn't mean you can't feel pain.

2) Gowasu stated no such thing and by the end Zamasu still said to Trunks that he was immortal. If he wasnt then he would have died by having his brain cut in half.

3) Gogeta also had too much power and fought a much stronger opponent and didnt defuse. He even lauched his final attack. So in the manga Gogeta >> Vegetto.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:58 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:18 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:11 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:43 pm

Because he defused in less than 5 minutes without doing any effort at all while Gogeta didn't.

In the anime it makes sense for him to defuse since he's fighting an immortal being that doesn't tire so he ran out of energy way too quickly.

And yes, Zamasu didnt lose his immortality. He's body just got screwed up but thanks to it, it got stronger.

Trunks didnt even destroyed his body, that was all his own doing.
Vegetto and Gowasu outright stated Zamas is no longer immortal. This was proven when he felt pain and was defeated by attacks. Trunks attack not able to kill Zamas doesn't prove Zamas is immortal but just wasn't strong enough to do so. So saying Zamas was still immortal is headcanon.

Vegetto defusing before an hour due to "having too much power" in the manga does not prove Gogeta is physically stronger than Vegetto due to a longer time limit. Especially since the amount of time Vegetto used was not even given.So trying to use Vegetto defusing from having too much power as bad writing by comparing it to Gogeta's fusion timetable is futile.
1) Just because you are immortal doesn't mean you can't feel pain.

2) Gowasu stated no such thing and by the end Zamasu still said to Trunks that he was immortal. If he wasnt then he would have died by having his brain cut in half.

3) Gogeta also had too much power and fought a much stronger opponent and didnt defuse. He even lauched his final attack. So in the manga Gogeta >> Vegetto.
That's factually wrong. Gogeta and Vegetto were officially stated to be equal. Time limit doesn't make one stronger than the other.
Vegetto stated merged Zamas isn't immortal anymore because of Black being part of Zamas body now. It's the same reason Gowasu gave to Goku and Vegeta on why his body wasn't healing. So yes, they both stated merged Zamas is no longer immortal. Proof of that is Zamas without Black was stated to be "invulnerable/invincible." Hence why he could take a Rose Black's Kamehameha without flinching.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:05 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:58 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:18 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:11 am

Vegetto and Gowasu outright stated Zamas is no longer immortal. This was proven when he felt pain and was defeated by attacks. Trunks attack not able to kill Zamas doesn't prove Zamas is immortal but just wasn't strong enough to do so. So saying Zamas was still immortal is headcanon.

Vegetto defusing before an hour due to "having too much power" in the manga does not prove Gogeta is physically stronger than Vegetto due to a longer time limit. Especially since the amount of time Vegetto used was not even given.So trying to use Vegetto defusing from having too much power as bad writing by comparing it to Gogeta's fusion timetable is futile.
1) Just because you are immortal doesn't mean you can't feel pain.

2) Gowasu stated no such thing and by the end Zamasu still said to Trunks that he was immortal. If he wasnt then he would have died by having his brain cut in half.

3) Gogeta also had too much power and fought a much stronger opponent and didnt defuse. He even lauched his final attack. So in the manga Gogeta >> Vegetto.
That's factually wrong. Gogeta and Vegetto were officially stated to be equal. Time limit doesn't make one stronger than the other.
Vegetto stated merged Zamas isn't immortal anymore because of Black being part of Zamas body now. It's the same reason Gowasu gave to Goku and Vegeta on why his body wasn't healing. So yes, they both stated merged Zamas is no longer immortal. Proof of that is Zamas without Black was stated to be "invulnerable/invincible." Hence why he could take a Rose Black's Kamehameha without flinching.

And proof of the fact that they were wrong and Zamasu was still immortal is that he continued talking and laughing after his brain was split in half, and after his body was disintegrated his soul went on to merge with the very fabric of the cosmos. Fused Zamasu also took SSB Vegito's Final Kamehameha (which is much stronger than Rose Black's Kamehameha) without flinching.

When Gowasu and Vegito said that Zamasu was no longer immortal, they were referring to his body, because his mortal side was starting to affect his immortal side and hindering his regeneration.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:30 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:05 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:58 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:18 pm

1) Just because you are immortal doesn't mean you can't feel pain.

2) Gowasu stated no such thing and by the end Zamasu still said to Trunks that he was immortal. If he wasnt then he would have died by having his brain cut in half.

3) Gogeta also had too much power and fought a much stronger opponent and didnt defuse. He even lauched his final attack. So in the manga Gogeta >> Vegetto.
That's factually wrong. Gogeta and Vegetto were officially stated to be equal. Time limit doesn't make one stronger than the other.
Vegetto stated merged Zamas isn't immortal anymore because of Black being part of Zamas body now. It's the same reason Gowasu gave to Goku and Vegeta on why his body wasn't healing. So yes, they both stated merged Zamas is no longer immortal. Proof of that is Zamas without Black was stated to be "invulnerable/invincible." Hence why he could take a Rose Black's Kamehameha without flinching.

And proof of the fact that they were wrong and Zamasu was still immortal is that he continued talking and laughing after his brain was split in half, and after his body was disintegrated his soul went on to merge with the very fabric of the cosmos. Fused Zamasu also took SSB Vegito's Final Kamehameha (which is much stronger than Rose Black's Kamehameha) without flinching.

When Gowasu and Vegito said that Zamasu was no longer immortal, they were referring to his body, because his mortal side was starting to affect his immortal side and hindering his regeneration.
The fact is Gowasu and Vegetto were referring to Zamas overall being. That's why Gowasu stated they needed more power to take advantage of his mortal body now. They just didn't have enough power to ever destroy him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:38 pm

The fact is Gowasu and Vegetto were referring to Zamas overall being. That's why Gowasu stated they needed more power to take advantage of his mortal body now. They just didn't have enough power to ever destroy him.
That's not a fact. In the following episode, Gowasu aknowledges that he had an immortal soul all along. Vegito was also telling Zamasu that he was no longer immortal because he had fused with Goku, which is true. His body was no longer immortal, because it was partly mortal. But his soul was still immortal, though that is a topic that Vegito never touched. They didn't have enough power to destroy his mortal body, that's something that Zamasu did to himself. He cast aside his mortal form and embraced his new immortal form to become the multiverse. Finally, if you're going to take every statement at face value, then we have Fused Zamasu mentioning several times how he is still immortal and everlasting.

What is a fact is that if Zamasu was not immortal like you claim, he would have:

A) Stopped talking and laughing right after his brain was split in half;

B) Went straight to Hell after his body was disintegrated.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:07 pm

Can a supreme kai, even one like Zamasu, even go to Hell? Is Emma-Daioh even allowed to judge him?

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Grand Marshal 1
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:13 pm

Thani wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:07 pm
Can a supreme kai, even one like Zamasu, even go to Hell? Is Emma-Daioh even allowed to judge him?
Interesting question. My thought is that if a person like Zamasu is defined evil, he is immediately teleported to the Demon Realm, dead or not, with the approval of the higher order of God's, usually the Supreme Kais themselves.

Zamasu's case was a little special though, as he did everything he did out of pure fear for the cosmos. The dude wasn't evil. He had a vision that contradicted his teachings though. And he was immortal. Unkillable. Only erasure could send him away and that meant no afterlife. (if we speak for Zamasu in person).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:24 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:13 pm
Thani wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:07 pm
Can a supreme kai, even one like Zamasu, even go to Hell? Is Emma-Daioh even allowed to judge him?
Interesting question. My thought is that if a person like Zamasu is defined evil, he is immediately teleported to the Demon Realm, dead or not, with the approval of the higher order of God's, usually the Supreme Kais themselves.

Zamasu's case was a little special though, as he did everything he did out of pure fear for the cosmos. The dude wasn't evil. He had a vision that contradicted his teachings though. And he was immortal. Unkillable. Only erasure could send him away and that meant no afterlife. (if we speak for Zamasu in person).
Yes, that's my point. At the end of the day, he was still immortal. He had a semi-mortal body whose regeneration capabilities were ultimately shattered, but his soul, the core of his being remained immortal. And indeed the dominant personality of the fusion was very clearly Future Zamasu, not Goku Black, so it only makes sense that Fused Zamasu's core is everlasting like Future Zamasu's. So when his body was destroyed, his soul was not sent to the afterlife like every mortal soul (let's assume that that applies to kais too). Instead it remained in the living world and latched onto the closest host it could find -- the cosmos itself.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:48 pm

How strong do you guys think Cabba and the other Universe 6 Saiyans are supposed to be?

I recently made a poll for my YouTube channel and it seems like the vocal minority subscribes to the "Base Vegeta = Base Cabba" notion while the non-vocal majority seems to believe that Cabba is weaker than Cell Arc characters.

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Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:22 am

Miracles wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:58 pm
That's factually wrong. Gogeta and Vegetto were officially stated to be equal. Time limit doesn't make one stronger than the other.
Vegetto stated merged Zamas isn't immortal anymore because of Black being part of Zamas body now. It's the same reason Gowasu gave to Goku and Vegeta on why his body wasn't healing. So yes, they both stated merged Zamas is no longer immortal. Proof of that is Zamas without Black was stated to be "invulnerable/invincible." Hence why he could take a Rose Black's Kamehameha without flinching.
1) I know they are equal but that doesn't work with the manga. Vegetto couldn't even hold his fusion for any significant time when facing a much weaker opponent while Gogeta did so when facing someone on his level. Even if their powers are the same, this fact makes Vegetto inferior since he can't hold his fusion for long while Gogeta can.

This is not a problem with the anime since it makes sense for Vegetto to defuse there.

2) So tell me how Zamasu survived having his brain cut in half. Kaioshins still have the anatomy of humans so he should be very dead if he wasn't immortal. You are also ignoring that Zamasu himself said he was still immortal to both Vegetto and Trunks.
DBZ Macky wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:48 pm
How strong do you guys think Cabba and the other Universe 6 Saiyans are supposed to be?

I recently made a poll for my YouTube channel and it seems like the vocal minority subscribes to the "Base Vegeta = Base Cabba" notion while the non-vocal majority seems to believe that Cabba is weaker than Cell Arc characters.

Image
Most fans are clueless when it comes to power scaling.

Base Cabba was said to be equal to the same base Vegeta that the Commeson water copied and then owned SS3 Gotenks.

Cabba would finger flick Cell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:11 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:22 am
Most fans are clueless when it comes to power scaling.

Base Cabba was said to be equal to the same base Vegeta that the Commeson water copied and then owned SS3 Gotenks.

Cabba would finger flick Cell.
I could say the same about everyone lol.
Not just us fans, I don't think even Toei understands the power scale with how inconsistent everything seems.

Let's see, if we take everything at face value:
Assault Form Frost > Base Goku/Vegeta >= Base Cabba >> SS3 Gotenks >> Piccolo

But somehow Piccolo is able to keep up with Final Form Frost? Did Goku really beat the shit out of him so much that he was weaker than his first form?
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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