Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:21 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:56 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:26 pm
Soldierofficial wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:55 am


Final Form Freeza proved to be as strong as Base Goku every time they met.

All the times?
1) revival of f : Goku was beyond god, not base
2) prior to the tournament of power :Goku was shown in "base" to keep coherence with revival of f, so that "base"could perfectly be a beyond God
3) tournament of power : against dysplasia, final form freezer demonstrated to be In the same tier as God Goku (see the fight against dyspo)
Against Anilaza too. He could have gone 100% but he probably saw no use to it (he could, as he did transform in front of Frost after all). But OK, we shouldn't jump to such conclusions.

I mean, FF Freeza being SSG level sounds a bit off. There is the counterargument that Goku uses Blue against Freeza and he uses True Golden or Golden (depending on the fight), so the boost the forms provide needs to be similar. That contradicts his fight with Base/Aura of a God Toppo as he uses True Golden, when Goku and Vegeta matched him with Blue and Blue KK in instances, so that would lowball the multiplier for the True Golden form.

Either way, I think he is SS level by the ToP too. Perhaps low SS2, but since he used True Golden against a max power SS2 Cabba, it is contradicted.
In the anime, true golden provides the same boost of golden but has less stamina drain, in a way similar to ssj grade 4 in comparison to ssj
True golden : golden = ssj grade 4 : ssj

Freezer>>>frost, and frost demonstrated to be easily ssj tier or anyway relative to that tier of power.
Freezer went golden against kyabe even if it was unneeded just to be cruel and have fun his way, nothing implies he needed it. we know that out freezer is a Sadistic asshole , after all .
Plus, Kyabe at the tournament of power is way weaker than vegeta, so if he would've really needed golden to stomp Kyabe he wouldn't be ssj tier at all, or at least not Goku/vegeta ssj tier
Last edited by p-hyvo on Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:23 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:04 pm
FF Freeza was going at it with a Dyspo, who was body bagging Hit.
Yes, that the point. Godku vs dyspo was a bad rip off of battle of gods, and freezer stood up perfectly against dyspo. That's a clear proof of him being ssg Guerin his final form
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2653
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:42 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:23 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:04 pm
FF Freeza was going at it with a Dyspo, who was body bagging Hit.
Yes, that the point. Godku vs dyspo was a bad rip off of battle of gods, and freezer stood up perfectly against dyspo. That's a clear proof of him being ssg Guerin his final form
It makes sense. god level in FF and blue level while golden.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:42 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:23 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:04 pm
FF Freeza was going at it with a Dyspo, who was body bagging Hit.
Yes, that the point. Godku vs dyspo was a bad rip off of battle of gods, and freezer stood up perfectly against dyspo. That's a clear proof of him being ssg Guerin his final form
It makes sense. god level in FF and blue level while golden.
So, you think it would be possible for trained Broly arc Freeza in let's say 100% Final to easily challenge Wrathful/Ikari stage 1 Broly?
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:48 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:42 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:23 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:04 pm
FF Freeza was going at it with a Dyspo, who was body bagging Hit.
Yes, that the point. Godku vs dyspo was a bad rip off of battle of gods, and freezer stood up perfectly against dyspo. That's a clear proof of him being ssg Guerin his final form
It makes sense. god level in FF and blue level while golden.
Yes, thats perfectly the point. That what it is.
And like that it is coherent with revival of f too, when freezer was relative to beyond God Goku in his final form and blue tier with golden
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:54 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:45 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:42 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:23 pm


Yes, that the point. Godku vs dyspo was a bad rip off of battle of gods, and freezer stood up perfectly against dyspo. That's a clear proof of him being ssg Guerin his final form
It makes sense. god level in FF and blue level while golden.
So, you think it would be possible for trained Broly arc Freeza in let's say 100% Final to easily challenge Wrathful/Ikari stage 1 Broly?
Well, I see no problem in that.
Personally , let's scale it in my canons :
Goku 1
God 60'000
Freezer, 50% 40'000
Freezer, 70% 56'000
Freezer, 100% 80'000
Broly, oozaru power (first stage) 77'000

And that's lowballing imo.
Anyway, vs oozaru broly (first stage), final form freezer would have been a valid and useful help if he went all out.
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:59 pm

Returning to the previous point, final form freezer staid suppressed for like 90% of the tournament of power. He took it easy, like an occasion to have fun sadistically.
It was the case against kyabe, against the yardratian guy , against frost and against that guy from u10 freezer eliminated.
The only valid feat to comprehend his power is against dyspo, fight in which freezer stood up perfectly as God Goku did previously with the same enemy.
Freezer went golden against kyabe just because he's a saiyan and freezer hates saiyans and is a sadist, so he took that poor kid as a victim of his suppressed anger against saiyans, just to let it out let's say.
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2653
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:16 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:45 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:42 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:23 pm


Yes, that the point. Godku vs dyspo was a bad rip off of battle of gods, and freezer stood up perfectly against dyspo. That's a clear proof of him being ssg Guerin his final form
It makes sense. god level in FF and blue level while golden.
So, you think it would be possible for trained Broly arc Freeza in let's say 100% Final to easily challenge Wrathful/Ikari stage 1 Broly?
Golden Freeza was taking a beating for a while against SSJ Broly. It's possible.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3171
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:53 pm

Goku was very clear about Freeza being much weaker than his SSGod form when they were fighting Anilasa. SS2 Goku also easily stopped him from charging his ki ball against the Saiyan girls.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2653
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:55 pm

You mean Freeza ALLOWED SSJ2 Goku to stop his ki charge. Also, you can't use FF freeza kicking SSJG Goku from falling as an example of strength comparison when Freeza is rescuing him. It's not an attempt to defeat him in a fight.

Freeza earlier even stated he was using Goku to fight Jiren shortly after he used UI. So it's a bad idea to try and say Freeza was trying to damage Goku at anytime.
Last edited by Miracles on Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:38 am

So, where would you guys say RoF 1st Form Freeza peaks at during the Buu arc? given that he one-shot SS Gohan, could he take on Majin Vegeta? would he be even stronger than that?

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3171
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:03 am

Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:55 pm
You mean Freeza ALLOWED SSJ2 Goku to stop his ki charge. Also, you can't use FF freeza kicking SSJG Goku from falling as an example of strength comparison when Freeza is rescuing him. It's not an attempt to defeat him in a fight.

Freeza earlier even stated he was using Goku to fight Jiren shortly after he used UI. So it's a bad idea to try and say Freeza was trying to damage Goku at anytime.
They already tried to damage each other before the tournament, so I don’t see why Freeza would suddenly treat Goku better because he needs him, a kick is a kick. Anyway, it’s quite a stretch to assume he is SSGod level, since most of the time it looks like he is only Base level.
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:38 am
So, where would you guys say RoF 1st Form Freeza peaks at during the Buu arc? given that he one-shot SS Gohan, could he take on Majin Vegeta? would he be even stronger than that?
Perfect Cell level at best.

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:11 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:38 am
So, where would you guys say RoF 1st Form Freeza peaks at during the Buu arc? given that he one-shot SS Gohan, could he take on Majin Vegeta? would he be even stronger than that?
Well over all the z verse in the anime, 17/18 tier in the manga (17 and 18 form z obviously)
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2035
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:14 am

I've always seen it as Freeza ordinarily having a general level equal to the base Saiyans in his own base, but with him being able to push it to full power (and without needing to bulk up) that equals Super Saiyan.

Granted, said base level is already at the level of Majin Buu.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:18 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:38 am
So, where would you guys say RoF 1st Form Freeza peaks at during the Buu arc? given that he one-shot SS Gohan, could he take on Majin Vegeta? would he be even stronger than that?
Based on my scale in the previous page of the thread, I placed 1st Form RoF Freeza somewhere above a non-trained SS Buu saga Gohan. So, he should be near the level of SS Gooku and Vegeta from the Buu saga, who should be roughly on par with Cell Games SS Gohan. That said, Perfect Cell level, Super Perfect Cell under certain conditions, but since its his 1st Form, it is more than enough. SS2 level isn't his thing for Buu saga.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
Soldierofficial
Newbie
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:29 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Soldierofficial » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:43 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:11 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:38 am
So, where would you guys say RoF 1st Form Freeza peaks at during the Buu arc? given that he one-shot SS Gohan, could he take on Majin Vegeta? would he be even stronger than that?
Well over all the z verse in the anime, 17/18 tier in the manga (17 and 18 form z obviously)
Do you think RoF Freeza needed to transform to defeat Gohan and Piccolo in the manga?

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:21 pm

Soldierofficial wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:43 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:11 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:38 am
So, where would you guys say RoF 1st Form Freeza peaks at during the Buu arc? given that he one-shot SS Gohan, could he take on Majin Vegeta? would he be even stronger than that?
Well over all the z verse in the anime, 17/18 tier in the manga (17 and 18 form z obviously)
Do you think RoF Freeza needed to transform to defeat Gohan and Piccolo in the manga?
In the manga He would need to, considering that his final form is low ssb tier
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4146
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:20 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:38 am
So, where would you guys say RoF 1st Form Freeza peaks at during the Buu arc? given that he one-shot SS Gohan, could he take on Majin Vegeta? would he be even stronger than that?
This is the biggest issue that prevents me from fully accepting Good Boo > FF Freeza.

The difference between his first and final form becomes very small. Like not even 5 times as strong.

PerahpsTheOtherOne idea is kinda neat now that I think about it. We do know that unless he bulks up he never is at 100% of his full power on his final form so who said he's always at 70% during it? He can be way lower. That way he can be equal to base Goku and also stronger than Frost with the same form. This also fits with what the narrator said on E25, that in order to surpass FF Freeza, Goku needed to turn Blue.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:04 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:20 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:38 am
So, where would you guys say RoF 1st Form Freeza peaks at during the Buu arc? given that he one-shot SS Gohan, could he take on Majin Vegeta? would he be even stronger than that?
This is the biggest issue that prevents me from fully accepting Good Boo > FF Freeza.

The difference between his first and final form becomes very small. Like not even 5 times as strong.

PerahpsTheOtherOne idea is kinda neat now that I think about it. We do know that unless he bulks up he never is at 100% of his full power on his final form so who said he's always at 70% during it? He can be way lower. That way he can be equal to base Goku and also stronger than Frost with the same form. This also fits with what the narrator said on E25, that in order to surpass FF Freeza, Goku needed to turn Blue.
Hoo, I think I can think of a good reasoning for that. Freeza's suppression forms. We were given PLs and although some may question their credibility they were our clues. We knew that at 50% Final, Freeza would match and perhaps even be stronger than KK×20 Goku with a PL of 3 million. This would suggest that at 50% he isn't at 60 million, like PHyvo said. He was stronger as he wasn't fatigued. Perhaps 80, 90 or even 100 million (enough of a multiplier on top of Goku's KK×20 [×1.5 to be exact] for him to survive the Saiyan's onslaught).

Only with such a PL would Freeza's third form with a potential PL of roughly 2 million (4× 1st form or 2× 2nd form) be considered a suppression of his power (1%). So ideally, he can use the Final Form and use as less as 1% to as match as 50+% (going FP or 100% when he bulks up and anything below that being his slim form, with the exception of him being bulked up and dropping to lower levels because of fatigue, which has no relation to how much power Freeza exerts. He may as well give his 100% still).

And that's when I fell personally contradicted. If FF Freeza thought that going Golden would be the only way of defeating Goku (with him in Golden being twice as strong as Blue), then he would require a boost of a similar level. If we somehow saw Goku fighting in a lesser form first it would be enough, but I can't find a hole in this.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2653
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:28 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:03 am
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:55 pm
You mean Freeza ALLOWED SSJ2 Goku to stop his ki charge. Also, you can't use FF freeza kicking SSJG Goku from falling as an example of strength comparison when Freeza is rescuing him. It's not an attempt to defeat him in a fight.

Freeza earlier even stated he was using Goku to fight Jiren shortly after he used UI. So it's a bad idea to try and say Freeza was trying to damage Goku at anytime.
They already tried to damage each other before the tournament, so I don’t see why Freeza would suddenly treat Goku better because he needs him, a kick is a kick. Anyway, it’s quite a stretch to assume he is SSGod level, since most of the time it looks like he is only Base level.
It's not a stretch cause FF Freeza was boxing with Dyspo, who bodied Hit and was tagging up SSJG Goku. Golden Freeza and Blue Kakarot damaged each other before the TOP, where Freeza was using Goku to fight against Jiren with UI. Even gave him power to assure U7's victory so he could get brought back to life too. All the evidence points to Freeza's FF being Red level.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

Post Reply