Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm

shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:18 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:05 pm
shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:51 pm
Dude, give me the evidence that Jiren is "Only" stronger than Belmond, because there's nothing that suggests that he's weaker or stronger.

The only one with bias here is you as you claim Beerus is stronger despite you have no idea how strong Jiren is in comparison yet you make statements like these propping your headcanon as gospel..


The fact that Jiren was stated to be only stronger than Belmond was the ONLY definition of Jiren's power. You trying to hide behind the ignorance fallacy of the contrary won't work.

While Beerus dances around and dang near kills multiple gods. That's battle powers of gods stacked against Beerus, more so than Belmond. Yet you say there is no proof that Beerus is superior to Jiren? The majority [at the same time] > singular.
Tell me this, what makes you think Jiren isn't capable of doing the same as Beerus in fighting mutible GoD and that he's only stronger Belmond? Give me an exact line or panel from the manga that states Jiren can ONLY beat Belmond and that Beerus is stronger than Jiren.
You are still appealing to ignorance fallacy. Jiren's power was defined by specifically being stronger than Belmond ONLY. You claiming that it is a possibility that he could go handle multiple gods like Beerus did is your headcanon and contrary to story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:25 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:18 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:05 pm

The fact that Jiren was stated to be only stronger than Belmond was the ONLY definition of Jiren's power. You trying to hide behind the ignorance fallacy of the contrary won't work.

While Beerus dances around and dang near kills multiple gods. That's battle powers of gods stacked against Beerus, more so than Belmond. Yet you say there is no proof that Beerus is superior to Jiren? The majority [at the same time] > singular.
Tell me this, what makes you think Jiren isn't capable of doing the same as Beerus in fighting mutible GoD and that he's only stronger Belmond? Give me an exact line or panel from the manga that states Jiren can ONLY beat Belmond and that Beerus is stronger than Jiren.
You are still appealing to ignorance fallacy. Jiren's power was defined by specifically being stronger than Belmond ONLY.
Again, show me the where it was stated that Jiren is weaker than the other GoDs bar Belmond
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:05 pm
You claiming that it is a possibility that he could go handle multiple gods like Beerus did is your headcanon and contrary to story.
And yet your headcanon that Beerus is superior to Jiren despite there being nothing that implies it is somehow fact?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:39 pm

shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:25 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:18 pm
Tell me this, what makes you think Jiren isn't capable of doing the same as Beerus in fighting mutible GoD and that he's only stronger Belmond? Give me an exact line or panel from the manga that states Jiren can ONLY beat Belmond and that Beerus is stronger than Jiren.
You are still appealing to ignorance fallacy. Jiren's power was defined by specifically being stronger than Belmond ONLY.
Again, show me the where it was stated that Jiren is weaker than the other GoDs bar Belmond
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:05 pm
You claiming that it is a possibility that he could go handle multiple gods like Beerus did is your headcanon and contrary to story.
And yet your headcanon that Beerus is superior to Jiren despite there being nothing that implies it is somehow fact?
Your headcanon has blinded you to the point of delusion. Jiren's power was factually/specifically defined being above one god. There is no statement/showings about him being able to handle all the gods at the same time like Beerus. There is no room for possibility [your headcanon] of him being above all the other gods in that statement when it was pertaining to a singular god only.

You have to prove there is a possibility...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:29 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
Your headcanon has blinded you to the point of delusion.
Says the guy repeatedly going Beerus>Jiren when there nothing that indicate Jiren is weaker
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
Jiren's power was factually/specifically defined being above one god. There is no statement/showings about him being able to handle all the gods at the same time like Beerus.
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
There is no room for possibility [your headcanon] of him being above all the other gods in that statement when it was pertaining to a singular god only.
I've asked this three times now and you've still have yet to provided an answer, How does this indicate that he's weaker than the other GoDs?

Look dude here are the known facts

Both Jiren and Beerus GoD tier,

Both are stronger than SSB,

Both are stronger than Belmond,


There are no statements in the manga or anime comparing the two, meanwhile supplement material, merchandising, and quotes taking from recent video games have gone out of their way to comparisons between the two as ambiguous as possible.

To claim one to be stronger than the other is nothing but headcanon.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:40 pm

shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:29 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
Your headcanon has blinded you to the point of delusion.
Says the guy repeatedly going Beerus>Jiren when there nothing that indicate Jiren is weaker
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
Jiren's power was factually/specifically defined being above one god. There is no statement/showings about him being able to handle all the gods at the same time like Beerus.
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
There is no room for possibility [your headcanon] of him being above all the other gods in that statement when it was pertaining to a singular god only.
I've asked this three times now and you've still have yet to provided an answer, How does this indicate that he's weaker than the other GoDs?

Look dude here are the known facts

Both Jiren and Beerus GoD tier,

Both are stronger than SSB,

Both are stronger than Belmond,


There are no statements in the manga or anime comparing the two, meanwhile supplement material, merchandising, and quotes taking from recent video games have gone out of their way to comparisons between the two as ambiguous as possible.

To claim one to be stronger than the other is nothing but headcanon.
Wrong only jiren is stated to be above belmond
Nothing stated beerus is stronger than belmond not vice versa as stated

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:48 pm

Block88 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:40 pm
shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:29 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
Your headcanon has blinded you to the point of delusion.
Says the guy repeatedly going Beerus>Jiren when there nothing that indicate Jiren is weaker
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
Jiren's power was factually/specifically defined being above one god. There is no statement/showings about him being able to handle all the gods at the same time like Beerus.
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
There is no room for possibility [your headcanon] of him being above all the other gods in that statement when it was pertaining to a singular god only.
I've asked this three times now and you've still have yet to provided an answer, How does this indicate that he's weaker than the other GoDs?

Look dude here are the known facts

Both Jiren and Beerus GoD tier,

Both are stronger than SSB,

Both are stronger than Belmond,


There are no statements in the manga or anime comparing the two, meanwhile supplement material, merchandising, and quotes taking from recent video games have gone out of their way to comparisons between the two as ambiguous as possible.

To claim one to be stronger than the other is nothing but headcanon.
Wrong only jiren is stated to be above belmond
Nothing stated beerus is stronger than belmond not vice versa as stated
I'm pretty sure it's was stated in the manga that Beerus along with the mouse GoD(whose name escapes me atm) were the stronger GoDs.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:11 pm

shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:29 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
Your headcanon has blinded you to the point of delusion.
Says the guy repeatedly going Beerus>Jiren when there nothing that indicate Jiren is weaker
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
Jiren's power was factually/specifically defined being above one god. There is no statement/showings about him being able to handle all the gods at the same time like Beerus.
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:05 pm
There is no room for possibility [your headcanon] of him being above all the other gods in that statement when it was pertaining to a singular god only.
I've asked this three times now and you've still have yet to provided an answer, How does this indicate that he's weaker than the other GoDs?

Look dude here are the known facts

Both Jiren and Beerus GoD tier,

Both are stronger than SSB,

Both are stronger than Belmond,


There are no statements in the manga or anime comparing the two, meanwhile supplement material, merchandising, and quotes taking from recent video games have gone out of their way to comparisons between the two as ambiguous as possible.

To claim one to be stronger than the other is nothing but headcanon.
So you still got no proof showing/stating that Jiren can handle all the gods at the same time and even kill a handful with an attack like Beerus.
All you got is your headcanon possibility scenario based on ignorance that Jiren can do what Beerus did despite the story only saying he is stronger than one god.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:47 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:11 pm
So you still got no proof showing/stating that Jiren can handle all the gods at the same time and even kill a handful with an attack like Beerus.
All you got is your headcanon possibility scenario based on ignorance that Jiren can do what Beerus did
Ignorance would be me claiming Jiren > Beerus simply because Beerus wasn't shown being unfazed from being frozen in time hit or shaking the world of void by powering up, Kinda like what your doing with this Beerus > Jiren debate.
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:11 pm
despite the story only saying he is stronger than one god.
I would say "That doesn't mean he's weaker than the other GoD" but that would a "headcanon scenario" which is a big nono as only your headcanons are allow to be legitimate in the holy book of Toriyama :roll:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Shintoki » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:40 pm

why is this debate still a thing?

Jiren was specifically stated to be above belmod.

belmod resorted to trickery (pretending to be down till last heavily weakened god) to try winning in the gods' tournament instead of facing heads on like the others, even though the priest specifically prohibited that.

that alone by itself negates any idea tht belmod is close to a FP beerus. now let this rest

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:01 am

shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:47 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:11 pm
So you still got no proof showing/stating that Jiren can handle all the gods at the same time and even kill a handful with an attack like Beerus.
All you got is your headcanon possibility scenario based on ignorance that Jiren can do what Beerus did
Ignorance would be me claiming Jiren > Beerus simply because Beerus wasn't shown being unfazed from being frozen in time hit or shaking the world of void by powering up, Kinda like what your doing with this Beerus > Jiren debate.
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:11 pm
despite the story only saying he is stronger than one god.
I would say "That doesn't mean he's weaker than the other GoD" but that would a "headcanon scenario" which is a big nono as only your headcanons are allow to be legitimate in the holy book of Toriyama :roll:
I didn't ask for your headcanon. I asked you to prove this supposed "possibility" of a character, only being stronger than ONE god somehow capable of doing what the strongest god [with Quitela] did to ALL the gods.

Show me or let your headcanon rest.
Shintoki wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:40 pm
why is this debate still a thing?

Jiren was specifically stated to be above belmod.

belmod resorted to trickery (pretending to be down till last heavily weakened god) to try winning in the gods' tournament instead of facing heads on like the others, even though the priest specifically prohibited that.

that alone by itself negates any idea tht belmod is close to a FP beerus. now let this rest
Thank you. I will let it rest, seeing the poster has no facts but contradictory interpretations of what he thinks a character can do.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Shintoki » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:27 am

Np, it's just better to spend time in more productive topics!

so I was wondering about a strength Formula I developed recently related to the films continuity based on toriyama statements and in-film statements.

beerus was stated to have been using about 70% of his power while goku was using 80% as an SSG and later on 100% (presumebly) at the end of the film. Goku was ranked by toriyama then as 6 in comparison to beerus whom would have been a 10.

if ~70% = 10 and 100% = 6 wouldn't goku have been about ~42% of beerus's 70% power? which means beerus would still been 58% stronger.

this is what I originally thought but old man toriyama sure broke it no time. you see, it doesn't work like that when you add the fact that toriyama stated whis was a 15 as well since whis is being compared to whis and using just his 70% would be unlikely.

so it's more probable that toriyama meant 10 = 100% beerus and 6 = 100% goku which would roughly translate to goku equaling 60% which lines perfectly with the in-verse statement considering that beerus was pushed to use roughly 70% of his power.

thoughts?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:28 am

Miracles wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:01 am
I didn't ask for your headcanon. I asked you to prove this supposed "possibility" of a character, only being stronger than ONE god somehow capable of doing what the strongest god [with Quitela] did to ALL the gods.

Show me or let your headcanon rest.
Show me prove that that Belmond is the only GoD Jiren can defeat, and that Beerus is stronger.
Miracles wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:01 am
I will let it rest, seeing the poster has no facts but contradictory interpretations of what he thinks a character can do.
You have no idea how Jiren compares to Beerus, yet you continue to make this baseless claim than Beerus is superior. I've literally asked you 7 times now to provide me with proof Jiren is weaker than the other GoDs and that Beerus is stronger, Yet you still haven't.

At this i'm done, it's clear your just going to keep echoing "Beerus > Jiren because i said so" as fact despite having nothing that prove it,

Farewell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:16 am

So, Hearts and Co are Heroes villains, although they technically fall under the Super Continuity (one of it's time lines at least) so I will ask something about them.


When Kamioren absorbed the Universe Seed in the Anime, Hearts said that it wasn't at full power, yet Kamioren achieved a level of power comparable to Blue Evolution and Ultra Instinct Omen (GoD Mode too and SS3 Cumber in the Manga).

Should we assume that since Super Hearts would be comparable to Kamioren and gained the power of a complete Universe Seed that he probably got like, 3-4 times the boost that Kamioren did to go Ultimate? It isn't much to say, but what do you think?

Also, would it grant God Ki powers when fully charged, or would that counter Hearts' role as a Godslayer? Opinions?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:04 am

Shintoki wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:40 pm
why is this debate still a thing?

Jiren was specifically stated to be above belmod.
Actually:
"The strongest man in Universe 11, said to have power that exceeds even the Gods of Destruction."

So even in the manga Jiren is stronger than all the GoDs and not just Belmod

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:10 am

Nice find, but most people forget that Top only says in the manga that Jiren is stronger than Belmod in terms of battle power, which would mean he could exceed several Gods of Destruction in that aspect. Since battle power obviously isn’t the only deciding factor in a fight, you can have a situation that Beerus or even Belmod can beat Jiren with their gimmicks, despite the power difference.

That and, considering Oracle Fish’s prophecy, Goku and Vegeta will probably surpass Jiren with their new techniques, which would make them close if not equal to Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Shintoki » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:17 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:04 am
Shintoki wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:40 pm
why is this debate still a thing?

Jiren was specifically stated to be above belmod.
Actually:
"The strongest man in Universe 11, said to have power that exceeds even the Gods of Destruction."

So even in the manga Jiren is stronger than all the GoDs and not just Belmod
that's a mistranslation actually. there is no contextual indication of a plural reference in the original japanese. the proper translation would be: ''the strongest man in universe 11, said to have a power that exceeds their own destroyer''

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:46 am

shadd21 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:48 pm
I'm pretty sure it's was stated in the manga that Beerus along with the mouse GoD(whose name escapes me atm) were the stronger GoDs.
I think it's just predicated on feats but not statements. Those were the last two standing in the exhibition match. Before that, Beerus was styling on all the other gods when it was ALL v 1 at the start. Beerus is clearly 1 of the superior GoDs. For me, it's enough of a showing to put him above everyone else. Belmod was also messing around to some extent, but he was clearly defeated by the end of the exhibition. That immediately puts Beerus above him IMO, especially when combined with Beerus' other feats in the exhibition. And the implication is that Quitela is Beerus' rival.

For a few years now, I've seen the GoDs as having tiers of power, like any other group, and not a flat PL or anything close to it. So it makes sense that some would be stronger than others, even much stronger.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:06 pm

Wouldn't Beerus' comments on Vegeta and Goku being candidates for GoDs in other universes when he can easily one-punch them in PSSB, make it clear that he is already one of the stronger GoDs? It isn't as clear, but a candidate GoD ≈ GoD. And when GoD Beerus defeats a GoD candidate for another universe that easily (Vegeta's case) it would make sense for him to be superior.

Which is also why I don't think that the manga advanced forms of PSSB offer much of a boost. Because it would make sense for these boosts to be near GoD levels, while still questionable matched for Beerus. If so, Jiren should be like slightly above Beerus imo, but it's not stated anywhere so yeah.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:10 pm

I don't know why people assume MUI Goku is stronger than a Goku and Vegeta fusion. In the story, it is stated that fusion alone is more capable than anything the singulars can do on their own. It's like saying SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Vegetto in the Majin Buu arc.

BTW, I know this counts for nothing what do those cards say concerning Broly, fusion and MUI?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:47 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't know why people assume MUI Goku is stronger than a Goku and Vegeta fusion. In the story, it is stated that fusion alone is more capable than anything the singulars can do on their own. It's like saying SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Vegetto in the Majin Buu arc.

BTW, I know this counts for nothing what do those cards say concerning Broly, fusion and MUI?
Mostly because Ultra Instinct is very clearly NOT factored into the equation where Fusions are concerned. If it were, Vegito/Gogeta would be so absurdly strong that there should be no contest whatsoever between him and someone "merely" as strong or stronger than a God of Destruction like Broly. Base form Gogeta/Vegito is already clearly as strong as SSB, and then SSB is added on top of that.

Which makes sense. Goku can't tap into it at will, and it's not really a Saiyan-type power and thus wouldn't be part of the accessible repertoire of a Fusion with Vegeta; their combined potential likely wouldn't include something like that given its Angelic nature. Also, all supplementary media to the main series places Ultra Instinct Goku on, at a bear minimum, the same general level as SSB Fusions and often even stronger. Which makes sense as well given how powerful the technique is and how hyped up it was, as well as keeping Goku from accessing it just yet.

Basically, Ultra Instinct is the EXCEPTION to the rule of "Fusions being greater than their component fighters", because the state puts Goku at a level comparable to if not superior to SSB Fusion with his own power and is not counted in any of his Fusions' potential.

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