Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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HeroR
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:39 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:12 pm
DBSuper doesn’t follow that RoF plot point of God-like base form. It went back to the linear Base-SS-SS2-SS3-SSGod-SSBlue evolution line.
The movie itself never suggested that their base form had God ki, just that it was super strong. Like in the movie, everyone sensed Goku's ki when Battle of Gods made it a point that God Ki can't be sensed at all by non-gods.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:49 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:38 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:31 pm
DBSuper manga has been consistently burying this notion that battle power always wins fights that I don’t understand why some people still insist on it.
That's true. In the manga is said that if you have an higher power level you can counter/be immune to haxes
Tell that to Moro.
Moro absorbs energy, which raises his own battle power.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:27 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:49 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:38 pm

That's true. In the manga is said that if you have an higher power level you can counter/be immune to haxes
Tell that to Moro.
Moro absorbs energy, which raises his own battle power.
And lowers the battle power of his foes. So, how exactly the superior battle power of the Saiyans guarantee their win? Moro obviously has a gimmick that makes him better than any battle power related fighter.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:57 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:27 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:49 am

Tell that to Moro.
Moro absorbs energy, which raises his own battle power.
And lowers the battle power of his foes. So, how exactly the superior battle power of the Saiyans guarantee their win? Moro obviously has a gimmick that makes him better than any battle power related fighter.
The Saiyans can win with their superior power easily if they grew half a brain, like Goku using a Kamehameha IT to warp into Moro's back and vaporize him. I mean, these same idiots let Moro eat a ball of energy in front of them without even attempting to stop him. Heck, Vegeta stopped in the middle of his attack and power down the first time he had Moro on the ropes.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:03 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:12 pm
DBSuper doesn’t follow that RoF plot point of God-like base form. It went back to the linear Base-SS-SS2-SS3-SSGod-SSBlue evolution line.
It actually did, until the U6 arc. Base Freeza curbstomped Ssj Gohan while Base Goku could put a fight against his fourth form. The gap's huge. Then we see a hulf-rusty Ssj Gohan take on Ssj Goku after the Zamasu arc. It's clearly a retcon.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:47 pm

I was meaning to find out just how strong RoF FF Freeza was:

We have his Namek figures, his FP was 120 million, and his 1st form was 530.000. So that is 226 x stronger than his first form to fight SS Goku, but he was at half power most of the time, so that's like +100x from 1st form to standard Namek FF Freeza. In RoF I assume he should be using more power than in Namek because Goku is no joke, so 150x stronger than in his 1st form at least.

In his 1st form he pretty much kills Gohan with one punch. For some reason, Gohan was in base when facing Freeza, DBS corrected that stupid mistake and had him as SS when Freeza attacks him.
The thing is just how weak SS Gohan was? the weakest SS Gohan from Z was the one at the Cell Games who wasn't at the level of Perfect Cell(he stalemated with Dabura as SS in the buu arc), so he has to be around that level.

So DBS 1st form Freeza, although sucker-kiblasting him, had SS Gohan on the ropes and could've killed him with no trouble.
RoF 1st form Freeza does to base Gohan what SS Gohan did to Shisami, I don't know how much stronger than your enemy you have to be to kill him with one punch, so perhaps 1st Form Freeza = SS Gohan, just for the sake of lowballing. So Final Form Freeza would be 150x stronger than the Cell arc SS Gohan.

I'm using Zombie Vito's power list to have some numbers to rely on, even though they are his own headcanon:

Cell arc SS Gohan = 2,800,000,000
SS3 Son Goku = 30,000,000,000
Super Vegito = 1,125,000,000,000
Buuhan =110,000,000,000
RoF Final Form Freeza (Gohan x 150)= 420.000.000.000

This puts RoF FF Freeza (and RoF Base Goku) somewhere in between Buuhan and Super Vegito

Thoughts?
Did I miss something?

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:57 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:39 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:12 pm
DBSuper doesn’t follow that RoF plot point of God-like base form. It went back to the linear Base-SS-SS2-SS3-SSGod-SSBlue evolution line.
The movie itself never suggested that their base form had God ki, just that it was super strong. Like in the movie, everyone sensed Goku's ki when Battle of Gods made it a point that God Ki can't be sensed at all by non-gods.
Thank you.

The god base forms is fandom
Base/SSJ forms being powered up AFTER making Red form his own is canon.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:32 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:57 pm
The god base forms is fandom
Not really, no. It is as official as it can be.

Think I'm getting it wrong but you next sentence kinda contradicts this one I quoted?

Super Saiyan form "powered-up by red form/god ki/god power" is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
Base form "powered-up by red form/god ki/god power" is Saiyan beyond God.

What am I missing?
Games - You are weak. Why are you weak?
Dragon Ball Super - *coughes*
Games - Because you lack... Content.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:23 am

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:32 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:57 pm
The god base forms is fandom
Not really, no. It is as official as it can be.

Think I'm getting it wrong but you next sentence kinda contradicts this one I quoted?

Super Saiyan form "powered-up by red form/god ki/god power" is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
Base form "powered-up by red form/god ki/god power" is Saiyan beyond God.

What am I missing?
Your missing canon fact.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:37 am

So no "official"? There's only "canon" (there isn't) and whatever is not labeled (arbitrarily) as such then it falls under the "fandom" category? What reasoning is this?

Saiyan beyond God is an official concept, whether anyone likes it or not. It was not created by fans so it can't be labeled as "fandom".
Games - You are weak. Why are you weak?
Dragon Ball Super - *coughes*
Games - Because you lack... Content.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:33 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:47 pm
I was meaning to find out just how strong RoF FF Freeza was:

We have his Namek figures, his FP was 120 million, and his 1st form was 530.000. So that is 226 x stronger than his first form to fight SS Goku, but he was at half power most of the time, so that's like +100x from 1st form to standard Namek FF Freeza. In RoF I assume he should be using more power than in Namek because Goku is no joke, so 150x stronger than in his 1st form at least.

In his 1st form he pretty much kills Gohan with one punch. For some reason, Gohan was in base when facing Freeza, DBS corrected that stupid mistake and had him as SS when Freeza attacks him.
The thing is just how weak SS Gohan was? the weakest SS Gohan from Z was the one at the Cell Games who wasn't at the level of Perfect Cell(he stalemated with Dabura as SS in the buu arc), so he has to be around that level.

So DBS 1st form Freeza, although sucker-kiblasting him, had SS Gohan on the ropes and could've killed him with no trouble.
RoF 1st form Freeza does to base Gohan what SS Gohan did to Shisami, I don't know how much stronger than your enemy you have to be to kill him with one punch, so perhaps 1st Form Freeza = SS Gohan, just for the sake of lowballing. So Final Form Freeza would be 150x stronger than the Cell arc SS Gohan.

I'm using Zombie Vito's power list to have some numbers to rely on, even though they are his own headcanon:

Cell arc SS Gohan = 2,800,000,000
SS3 Son Goku = 30,000,000,000
Super Vegito = 1,125,000,000,000
Buuhan =110,000,000,000
RoF Final Form Freeza (Gohan x 150)= 420.000.000.000

This puts RoF FF Freeza (and RoF Base Goku) somewhere in between Buuhan and Super Vegito

Thoughts?
Did I miss something?
1st Form Freeza is implied to be weaker than Good Boo twice by Kuririn.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:02 pm

RoF FF Freeza is definitely above Buuhan and Vegetto. Base Goku in RoF, after the power boost, achieving god mode allowed him to fight Beerus head up.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:50 pm

REMINDER: we do _NOT_ know if RoF First Form Freeza is as limited as back in Namek.

Final Form is BASE Freeza, First Form is RESTRICTED. There is no reason to believe he's restricted to the same proportional amount as back in Namek

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:50 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:50 pm
REMINDER: we do _NOT_ know if RoF First Form Freeza is as limited as back in Namek.

Final Form is BASE Freeza, First Form is RESTRICTED. There is no reason to believe he's restricted to the same proportional amount as back in Namek
Exactly. And he has decent control over his battle power in that form. So, he can be as powerful as Base Goku or rival SS Goku if he wants.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:30 am

also: given he later stop bothering with the restricted form, it's likely him using that specific form instead of the other ones was just scene

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:00 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:50 pm
REMINDER: we do _NOT_ know if RoF First Form Freeza is as limited as back in Namek.

Final Form is BASE Freeza, First Form is RESTRICTED. There is no reason to believe he's restricted to the same proportional amount as back in Namek
Exactly.

Otherwise FF Freeza would be over 200 times stronger than Boo and that's clearly not the case by the ToP since the Trio De Danger preassured base Goku and Vegeta.

Anyway, what's the agreeable multiplier now a days for Super Saiyan God? Broly movie made it seem not that huge.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:32 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:00 am
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:50 pm
REMINDER: we do _NOT_ know if RoF First Form Freeza is as limited as back in Namek.

Final Form is BASE Freeza, First Form is RESTRICTED. There is no reason to believe he's restricted to the same proportional amount as back in Namek
Exactly.

Otherwise FF Freeza would be over 200 times stronger than Boo and that's clearly not the case by the ToP since the Trio De Danger preassured base Goku and Vegeta.

Anyway, what's the agreeable multiplier now a days for Super Saiyan God? Broly movie made it seem not that huge.
Well, it's gotta be stronger than SS3 for sure. Enough so that it's still significant, but not so much so.

Based on how Broly jumped up to match Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base form, I'd say his Ikari state which matched SSG Vegeta may well have jumped up around 50-100 times more, giving us a conservative but still sizable 2500-5000 times boost off of a post-SSG/Whis training min. Majin Buu-level base form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:02 pm

About Freeza,
In RoF he says he's using his FF instead of being overconfident like in the past, insinuating the other forms are still there. In Broly it is implied he still can access his other forms but he doesn't want to, he prefers to be taller in his final form. Nothing is said about his power restrainment one way or the other and we don't know how his race actually works, without new info or retcon, he should still work the same as always. 200x than 1st form sounds like a lot, yeah, with a 50x boost he would still be Z top tier.
How Goku fares against others speaks only of Goku and the retcons he suffered(from putting up a fight with Beerus as SS to needing SS3 for Trunks, for example)


About SSGOD,
BoG presented it like it was stronger than at least Super Vegito. I'll pretend Goku didn't mean SS3 Vegito (when he perfectly could have). Assuming base Vegito = SS3 Goku, actually to lowball it more, SS3 Goku > Base Vegito:

SS3 Goku 400
Base Vegito 300
Super Vegito 15.000
SSG 15.000-20.000

Base Broly 300-400 (not really base, he got some ikari boosts while in base that were slowly giving him the edge)

Ikari Broly in order to resist and then stomp God has to become, like PerhapsTheOtherOne said, between 50-100x stronger. 20.000 sounds like a lot but less than that would place God weaker than BoG Super Vegito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:20 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:27 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:49 am

Tell that to Moro.
Moro absorbs energy, which raises his own battle power.
And lowers the battle power of his foes. So, how exactly the superior battle power of the Saiyans guarantee their win? Moro obviously has a gimmick that makes him better than any battle power related fighter.
NLF. put him up against someone who moves and punches hundreds of times faster and harder than him. not only have time to react even to his death.

This has been a problem in this forum since the beginning. you guys fall to much into the NLF arguments. it was made more apparent with UI and it seems that it will happen with moro until he inevitably goes down using pure power only.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:38 am

Except that is not happening. Moro is already above current Blue's power. Not to mention Goku only thinks UI might dodge Moro's absorption ability. So no, nobody is just "lolol blitzing Moro."

:lol:
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