Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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GodVegetto91
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:32 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:57 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:35 pm
The next enemy is always stronger than the last
This is false as a rule of thumb, Hit stated himself that he reached his limit vs SSB Goku and without the time skip he'd have no chance, and until he enhanced his time skip not even with that technique he was a match for SSB. Vegeta also commented on Hit's attacks not being that big of a deal and his speed being nothing he couldn't do himself.
Hit's raw power is below SSB, while Golden Freeza was much stronger than SSB. Hit even with his technique couldn't touch SSB Goku.

Also, quoting a novel? really? over the actual movie? what makes a novel more valid than the actual movie written by Akira Toriyama and produced by Toei Animation?
I could say the same thing about you. Why are you disregarding my message ALL based on one single thing: (I should have said USUALLY always stronger), but you’re unforgiving apparently, trying to look for any reasons to attack me. It’s quite clear to me that you aren’t looking to have a rational discussion. Anyone arguing for a previous main antagonist to be stronger than a current main antagonist (without any hard evidence to back it up), automatically loses all credibility for me.

This is the last thing i’ll say for now. I’m out of here. Peace!
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu Black » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:50 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:35 pm
The next enemy is always stronger than the last
Not true.

Golden Frieza was weaker than Beerus.

Goku Black was weaker than Hit.

Moro so far is weaker than Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:58 pm

Zamasu Black wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:50 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:35 pm
The next enemy is always stronger than the last
Not true.

Golden Frieza was weaker than Beerus.

Goku Black was weaker than Hit.

Moro so far is weaker than Broly.
Moro is stronger than Broly cause he can absorb Broly's power.
Goku Black was stronger than Hit. He can battle stronger Blue Saiyans in his Base [anime] and SSJ [manga].
Beerus is a SETUP for Goku's goal as Toriyama said. However, Goku got stronger to face Golden Freeza in RoF.

Yes the next enemy is always stronger since Goku always increases in power.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:00 pm

Zamasu Black wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:50 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:35 pm
The next enemy is always stronger than the last
Not true.

Golden Frieza was weaker than Beerus.

Goku Black was weaker than Hit.

Moro so far is weaker than Broly.
Goku Black was NOT weaker than Hit. Hit used his time skip (technique) to match SSJ Blue KK x10 Goku. And Moro will be stronger than Broly now thanks to his endless meals. The only thing true is that Beerus is stronger than Golden Freeza. Which was OBVIOUSLY the exception! I’ve already explained that in the above posts. Why are you all attacking me on the same little thing?! So i can’t get lazy for one single time forgetting the word usually and ya’ll are punishing me for it. That’s totally unfair and you know it. The point stands that Beerus is the exception to that rule.

Moro > Broly > Jiren > Merged Zamasu > Goku Black’s latest appearance > Hit’s latest appearance (after powering up during the U6 tournament) > Golden Frieza > Buu.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu Black » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:08 pm

Well if you're dismissing it as a technique, which isn't really fair because it's still part of his power...then Hit was weaker than Golden Frieza.

But really you have to include it so therefore overall, Beerus was superior to Hit who was superior to Goku Black and also Zamasu.

Who knows what will happen with Moro but the last we actually did know he wasn't even that strong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:15 pm

Zamasu Black wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:08 pm
Well if you're dismissing it as a technique, which isn't really fair because it's still part of his power...then Hit was weaker than Golden Frieza.

But really you have to include it so therefore overall, Beerus was superior to Hit who was superior to Goku Black and also Zamasu.

Who knows what will happen with Moro but the last we actually did know he wasn't even that strong.
Hit still powered up heavily during the tournament. There’s no way he could tank hits from 10x Kaioken Blue Goku otherwise. So Hit’s latest appearance (right when the fight ended) was now massively stronger than Golden Freeza. But still weaker than SSJ Rosé Goku Black in his latest appearance right before fusing with Future Zamasu. Since he had gotten so many zenkais. Even as a SSJ Rosé already. He spammed them throughout the entire arc. And he got one final power-up after he got pownstomped by Vegeta and sliced his own hand with his energy sword.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu Black » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:21 pm

No Hit said he couldn't power up like that. The tanking hits doesn't really matter much anymore, he also didn't tank them anyway.

Regular Hit, pure power level wise is weaker than Golden Frieza. Otherwise as an overall fighter then Goku Black was inferior to him.

So either way you look at it, there was someone inferior. Zamasu was a next enemy and he was weaker than all the main antagonists from Super up till them.

If anything they kinda got weaker between

Beerus > Hit > Goku Black > Zamasu

And as of right now it's not impossible to see

Jiren > Broly > Moro

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:25 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:32 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:57 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:35 pm
The next enemy is always stronger than the last
This is false as a rule of thumb, Hit stated himself that he reached his limit vs SSB Goku and without the time skip he'd have no chance, and until he enhanced his time skip not even with that technique he was a match for SSB. Vegeta also commented on Hit's attacks not being that big of a deal and his speed being nothing he couldn't do himself.
Hit's raw power is below SSB, while Golden Freeza was much stronger than SSB. Hit even with his technique couldn't touch SSB Goku.

Also, quoting a novel? really? over the actual movie? what makes a novel more valid than the actual movie written by Akira Toriyama and produced by Toei Animation?
I could say the same thing about you. Why are you disregarding my message ALL based on one single thing: (I should have said USUALLY always stronger), but you’re unforgiving apparently, trying to look for any reasons to attack me. It’s quite clear to me that you aren’t looking to have a rational discussion. Anyone arguing for a previous main antagonist to be stronger than a current main antagonist (without any hard evidence to back it up), automatically loses all crediblity for me.

This is the last thing i’ll say for now. I’m out of here. Peace!
I disregarded it because like someone else stated and I mean no disrespect, it makes no sense. You mix manga and anime, Beerus was never stated or implied to be the strongest GoD in the anime, actually there is a statement about him losing to Belmod in an arm wrestling match, you still consider Beerus unique because Broly was compared to him by Goku (he should've compared him to Jiren IF Broly was stronger than Jiren, don't you think? he just fought Jiren who happens to be the strongest challenge he ever faced, not using him in a comparison means he is still the strongest)
and you actually believe not even Blue Gogeta compares to Beerus, what? based on what? on your personal preference. He could've raped Broly who most likely is stronger than Beerus! that much was stated, is not even my opinion.
Base Gogeta dodging a couple of beams isn't something Goku and Vegeta weren't already doing, and Broly never ever ever matched Blue Gogeta, that is contradicting the actual footage shown.

so anyone basing an argument on wrong information automatically loses all credibility for me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:29 pm

After all that happened there is too much fact denying around here. The next enemy being weaker than the last does not SERVE the purpose of the story. Actually goes against the plot. Goku gets stronger each arc and his goal is to do so. No way does he train just to face weaker enemies than before. This is straight nonsense and headcanon from the fandom just to try and keep their favorite characters relevant. When in DB, past villains always get left in the dust. Yes, that includes Broly as well since Goku WILL BE THE STRONGEST facing his goalpost. Which Toriyama,; Backed by the story, said is Beerus.

For examples, Jiren was said to be stronger than BELMOND ONLY. Goku beat Jiren with UI. No where in the narration did it state Goku even as UI surpassed Beerus. LATER Broly was compared to Goku's goal post in the stronger god in Beerus post TOP. Facing a stronger Goku. Broly was not paralleled to the past weaklings in Belmond/Jiren who were beaten already. That means Broly is stronger since he is currently relevant.

Moro is facing a much stronger Goku/Vegeta. The UI Moro will face is leagues above TOP UI. This UI Goku was going to face an ANGEL at full power. Not to mention this spirit control Vegeta is letting out city destroying blasts with a FINGER BEAMS. Moro will be facing the greatest Goku and Vegeta's ever! Not to mention Merus, the angel sees Moro as such a threat he was going to fight alongside Goku and Vegeta against Moro.

This is all leading back to the story's premise about Goku and Vegeta "becoming "formidable rivals" for Beerus. Stated in the movie, anime and manga. So as Goku and Vegeta grows like this just to face Beerus, no way in God's green earth is anyone stronger than Beerus since he is the final boss.

DB is a story and the villians are here to serve that story. They are to give the main character it's purpose. Therefore Toriyama "ALWAYS" has the next enemy better than the last since Goku's theme is "always getting stronger." Anyone who says otherwise is in denial, pure and simple and can''t understand the plot of DBS.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm

Zamasu Black wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:21 pm
No Hit said he couldn't power up like that. The tanking hits doesn't really matter much anymore, he also didn't tank them anyway.

Regular Hit, pure power level wise is weaker than Golden Frieza. Otherwise as an overall fighter then Goku Black was inferior to him.

So either way you look at it, there was someone inferior. Zamasu was a next enemy and he was weaker than all the main antagonists from Super up till them.

If anything they kinda got weaker between

Beerus > Hit > Goku Black > Zamasu

And as of right now it's not impossible to see

Jiren > Broly > Moro
Yes he did power up. I don’t care what Hit says. No one tanks punches from someone who is over 10x superior to you and still emerge victorious. Hit’s latest appearance being superior to Golden Freeza is not too far out of the realm of possibility. Since Goku and Vegeta themselves had already trained for 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber AFTER battling Frieza as SSJ Blue’s! And before the Universe 6-7 tournament.

Also. After the Goku Black Arc on earth, Hit (who was stated to have grown much superior since the ending of the U6 tournament by Goku), went “all-out” against this newly improved SSJ Blue Goku. (Improved so much that he didn’t even need to use a regular Kaioken). Also, this Hit didn’t even use his time skip at all. Just his own regular power, and still bested a SSJ Blue Goku that has grown “OVER!!!” 10 times stronger than his SSJ Blue during the tournament.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:36 pm

U6 arc Hit was definitely not stronger than Fused Zamasu. Even just Halo Fused Zamasu could probably beat him if he had knowledge of his hax ability.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:41 pm

Zamasu Black wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:21 pm
No Hit said he couldn't power up like that. The tanking hits doesn't really matter much anymore, he also didn't tank them anyway.

Regular Hit, pure power level wise is weaker than Golden Frieza. Otherwise as an overall fighter then Goku Black was inferior to him.

So either way you look at it, there was someone inferior. Zamasu was a next enemy and he was weaker than all the main antagonists from Super up till them.

If anything they kinda got weaker between

Beerus > Hit > Goku Black > Zamasu

And as of right now it's not impossible to see

Jiren > Broly > Moro
This. Vegeta said Hit's blows weren't a problem after taking so many of them, when Goku hacked the time skip and Hit tried not using it, he couldn't keep up with SSB and even recognised that was his limit, and then not even with the time skip he could touch SSB Goku. He then improves his technique, and actually explains he can't grow stronger through power ups and transformations like Goku-tachi, only through his ability, Whis, Vados and Piccolo repeat this too.
There is no way around it, his raw strenght never changes throughout the arc, and it is below SSB. Only his ability improves, unlike the manga where it is the other way around.
Overall he is a bigger challenge than Golden Freeza, but not because of how hard he can punch.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:47 pm

Image
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:50 pm

So, with Jiren thus far being portrayed and having more feats/statements backing up his superiority to Broly, as well as Moro thus far not demonstrating anything beyond Broly, it kinda looks like villains are getting WEAKER from Jiren onwards.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:51 pm

You should watch the full episode instead of just screens, it sinks better as a whole rather than some loose phrases. There is a whole scene with people much more qualified than us supporting what I'm saying.

I won't go, again, into proving what the series shows, people can keep on not believing what the characters actually say about themselves, for all I care

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:29 pm
After all that happened there is too much fact denying around here. The next enemy being weaker than the last does not SERVE the purpose of the story. Actually goes against the plot. Goku gets stronger each arc and his goal is to do so. No way does he train just to face weaker enemies than before. This is straight nonsense and headcanon from the fandom just to try and keep their favorite characters relevant. When in DB, past villains always get left in the dust. Yes, that includes Broly as well since Goku WILL BE THE STRONGEST facing his goalpost. Which Toriyama,; Backed by the story, said is Beerus.

For examples, Jiren was said to be stronger than BELMOND ONLY. Goku beat Jiren with UI. No where in the narration did it state Goku even as UI surpassed Beerus. LATER Broly was compared to Goku's goal post in the stronger god in Beerus post TOP. Facing a stronger Goku. Broly was not paralleled to the past weaklings in Belmond/Jiren who were beaten already. That means Broly is stronger since he is currently relevant.

Moro is facing a much stronger Goku/Vegeta. The UI Moro will face is leagues above TOP UI. This UI Goku was going to face an ANGEL at full power. Not to mention this spirit control Vegeta is letting out city destroying blasts with a FINGER BEAMS. Moro will be facing the greatest Goku and Vegeta's ever! Not to mention Merus, the angel sees Moro as such a threat he was going to fight alongside Goku and Vegeta against Moro.

This is all leading back to the story's premise about Goku and Vegeta "becoming "formidable rivals" for Beerus. Stated in the movie, anime and manga. So as Goku and Vegeta grows like this just to face Beerus, no way in God's green earth is anyone stronger than Beerus since he is the final boss.

DB is a story and the villians are here to serve that story. They are to give the main character it's purpose. Therefore Toriyama "ALWAYS" has the next enemy better than the last since Goku's theme is "always getting stronger." Anyone who says otherwise is in denial, pure and simple and can''t understand the plot of DBS.
Very good post. Nice to see some fresh, logical, and rational thinking once in a while. Yes, all of what you said is true. This also means that while SSJ Blue Gogeta was heavily superior to the MUI Goku from the tournament of power, he won’t be superior at all to this newly “mastered” Ultra Instinct Goku from this Arc. But rather, inferior. This Goku has been “battling to death” with a freaking ANGEL, for 6 months straight! And since Moro himself is going to be a vastly stronger villain then Broly was before him, so must his opponents be, therefore, the new MUI Goku & Spirit Control Vegeta >>>>>>>> SSJ Blue Gogeta from the Broly movie.

As for Goku leaving everyone in the dust in the future. I whole heartedly believe that Broly is the ONLY person that won’t happen to. Since he is a Saiyan too, with INFINITE potential and zenkais.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:03 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:51 pm
You should watch the full episode instead of just screens, it sinks better as a whole rather than some loose phrases. There is a whole scene with people much more qualified than us supporting what I'm saying.

I won't go, again, into proving what the series shows, people can keep on not believing what the characters actually say about themselves, for all I care
That was right AFTER Hit boosted himself through improvement.
Goku confirms that Hit's strength got stronger from that too. That's the facts of the context.
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:29 pm
After all that happened there is too much fact denying around here. The next enemy being weaker than the last does not SERVE the purpose of the story. Actually goes against the plot. Goku gets stronger each arc and his goal is to do so. No way does he train just to face weaker enemies than before. This is straight nonsense and headcanon from the fandom just to try and keep their favorite characters relevant. When in DB, past villains always get left in the dust. Yes, that includes Broly as well since Goku WILL BE THE STRONGEST facing his goalpost. Which Toriyama,; Backed by the story, said is Beerus.

For examples, Jiren was said to be stronger than BELMOND ONLY. Goku beat Jiren with UI. No where in the narration did it state Goku even as UI surpassed Beerus. LATER Broly was compared to Goku's goal post in the stronger god in Beerus post TOP. Facing a stronger Goku. Broly was not paralleled to the past weaklings in Belmond/Jiren who were beaten already. That means Broly is stronger since he is currently relevant.

Moro is facing a much stronger Goku/Vegeta. The UI Moro will face is leagues above TOP UI. This UI Goku was going to face an ANGEL at full power. Not to mention this spirit control Vegeta is letting out city destroying blasts with a FINGER BEAMS. Moro will be facing the greatest Goku and Vegeta's ever! Not to mention Merus, the angel sees Moro as such a threat he was going to fight alongside Goku and Vegeta against Moro.

This is all leading back to the story's premise about Goku and Vegeta "becoming "formidable rivals" for Beerus. Stated in the movie, anime and manga. So as Goku and Vegeta grows like this just to face Beerus, no way in God's green earth is anyone stronger than Beerus since he is the final boss.

DB is a story and the villians are here to serve that story. They are to give the main character it's purpose. Therefore Toriyama "ALWAYS" has the next enemy better than the last since Goku's theme is "always getting stronger." Anyone who says otherwise is in denial, pure and simple and can''t understand the plot of DBS.
Very good post. Nice to see some fresh, logical, and rational thinking once in a while. Yes, all of what you said is true. This also means that while SSJ Blue Gogeta was heavily superior to the MUI Goku from the tournament of power, he won’t be superior at all to this newly “mastered” Ultra Instinct Goku from this Arc. But rather, inferior. This Goku has been “battling to death” with a freaking ANGEL, for 6 months straight! And since Moro himself is going to be a vastly stronger villain then Broly was before him, so must his opponents be, therefore, the new MUI Goku & Spirit Control Vegeta >>>>>>>> SSJ Blue Gogeta from the Broly movie.

As for Goku leaving everyone in the dust in the future. I whole heartedly believe that Broly is the ONLY person that won’t happen to. Since he is a Saiyan too, with INFINITE potential and zenkais.
Thanks. Yeah it's a possibility with Broly. However, we know Goku is going to be the man in the end. Broly will not be, he is to serve Goku. Hence why Goku said he would be visiting Broly to fight him from time to time. Broly is nothing but spinach for Popeye to get stronger, lol.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:10 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:50 pm
So, with Jiren thus far being portrayed and having more feats/statements backing up his superiority to Broly, as well as Moro thus far not demonstrating anything beyond Broly, it kinda looks like villains are getting WEAKER from Jiren onwards.
Well, the whole show goes Beerus >>> Freeza >> Hit << Black << Zamasu << Jiren >> Broly >> Moro.

But it doesn't mean much because the challenge is always harder.
above SSG level < above SSB level < SSB level time skip < above SSB level and immortality < fusion of previous < stronger than GoD < stronger than GoD and with no self control < daikaioshin level magic

Super introduced a refreshing way to move things forward without necessarily having a guy that just hits harder than the one before.
Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:03 pm
That was right AFTER Hit boosted himself through improvement.
Goku confirms that Hit's strength got stronger from that too. That's the facts of the context.
Goku is talking about the improved technique, his raw power remains the same, Hit stated enough, Vados, Whis and Piccolo backed him up.

I've said my peace about this and so has the cast.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:07 pm

Wow this debate.

I will only say one thing, Jiren is confirmed ONLY stronger than Belmod who is unknown in comparison to other GoDs within the show. Whiss has a vague statement about Jiren being MAYBE stronger than a GoD but as we saw not all GoDs are equals so that statement is meh.

Broly is likely stronger than Beers, how does that Beerus compare to Jiren or Belmod? We don't really know.

It's true however that Jiren has more feats and statements backing him up more than Broly, however, I genuinely believe this is due to the show giving 40 episodes to wank off Jiren while Broly had only roughly 90 min to work with and not because Toriyama actually intended for Broly to magically weaker than Jiren.

As for Moro, really guys? We are still far from the climax of the arc and Moro has much more build-up than Jiren or Broly and he's about to face MUCH stronger Goku and Vegeta than Jiren and Broly did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:22 pm

It'd be pretty boring if it just went "BOOM, guy's stronger than before. BOOM, guy's stronger than before" as usual again.

I actually really like the idea of villains powering DOWN for once, but being threats in different ways. The Tournament of Power's structure meant Jiren didn't have to be killed to win and the heroes had rules to prevent him from completely killing them.

Meanwhile, Broly had comparable power but was berserking on Earth where he had no such restraints beyond his own behaviour.

And Moro needs to absorb that energy and thus can be cut off before he gets bad.

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