Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So then even base Jiren is stronger than Broly?

Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I feel as though the 2 are relatively even, with Broly perhaps having more raw power than Full-Power Jiren (not Shirtless Jiren) but less skill due to being berserk.

Either way, I don't think there's any significant difference such that Jiren would still win in a fight due to having better control over his Hakaishin+ level strength.

[Thunderbird]

Well Whis mentioned and later confirmed the rumour that there was a mortal (Jiren) who their own GoD (Belmod) stood no chance against.

Whereas Broly was said to be probably stronger than Beerus.

So if Beerus and Belmod were roughly equal then base Jiren alone should be stronger than Broly and Super Full Power Jiren would make a complete fool out of him.

[Miracles]

They seriously need to stop making Beerus a moving goalpost. It contributes to the rather stale feeling of most of Super. It would be hella lame if they later reveal him to above MUI Goku and SSB Gogeta.

It wouldn't be lame because that would be keeping the story's plot consistent. In BoG, Goku made a wager with Beerus. If he beat the destroyer, earth would be saved. So instead, Goku loses to Beerus. Which Toriyama stated himself; Goku's defeat was out of respect for Beerus and to give Goku a goal to shoot towards in the future. So, the consequences for being defeated was the obliteration of earth. However, Beerus stated that he would smash earth another time and told Goku to get stronger in order to have another showdown.

Add on to the fact how the plot confirmed at the end of the movie [more than once throughout the series too] that Goku will become an arch rival for Beerus. This narration for our protagonist never changed. The intrigue never said that Goku is a formidable opponent for Beerus ever in the story. Since the plot already established that both are going to fight again. This is what plot has been steadily building up to, Goku facing Beerus a second time around.

Dragonball is a story first, it isn't some fanfic comic, where it's emphasis is on "feats." Victory belts aren't defined by lifting/blowing up heavy objects. The story simply denying an arm wrestling contest as a standard for stronger fighter is proof of that. It's about how is the next, "always" strongest bad guy going to make our power hungry hero the strongest. DB has themes, a certain point it wants to reach, which builds our characters. It certainly does not bend itself to the fans desires or selective reading. The quicker people stop looking at DB solely as a power level spreadsheet the clearer they can see the scheme it is trying to accomplish.

Beerus hasn't offered anything of narrative worth after Battle of Gods. He's been a borderline nothing character since RoF, plays zero role in any of the (little) character growth that Goku or Vegeta get in Super, let alone power growth, and he and Whis generally ruin the tension of any plot (except the ToP arc) just by being around.

Absolutely nothing since RoF implies Goku and Beerus are gonna get a major rematch, so you are just projecting. Making Beerus a moving goalposts only adds to the problem. Its simply bad writing.

And the worst thing is, Beerus has little-to-no on screen proof of being stronger than even UI Omen Goku, let alone Broly, Jiren, SSB Fusion and MUI Goku. Actions speak louder than words (show don't tell), thats why feats matter.

The story did show us through TELLING that Goku is NOT an "arch rival" for Beerus yet. The plot can't even tell us if Broly, a character, who fought a full power Blue fusion Gogeta is stronger than Beerus. So all those so called "feats," you imagine, mean nothing when the current plot is holding Beerus up STILL as the benchmark for Goku.

I also have to chuckle at your statement about Beerus bringing no story importance. The one who introduced Goku to a new world with the god forms? Who allowed Whis to train Goku, so they could fight again for his growth? Who introduced Goku to other fighters from U6 through holding a tournament with Champa? Finally, who is still on Goku's radar, despite facing the current strongest Broly?

All this is leading back to what was stated in BoG. Where Goku said he will fight Beerus again. In RoF, where Whis made mention that Goku and Vegeta might have a chance against Beerus, if they fought him at the same time. In U6, Goku; stated, he was going to use Blue KK for Beerus, in the manga, the oracle fish reiterated again to Beerus how they will be formidable foes before the TOP arc. Now the Broly movie, Beerus is used again, as a goalpost. Which all confirms how Toriyama stated, in an interview, that Beerus is a goal Goku shoots for from the beginning.

Instead of falsely accusing the story of not being straight up about it's plan, pretending it's deceiving the audience, why not reread all mediums and Toriyama interviews on the subject. Just cause you don't like where the story is headed doesn't take away from the truth of the plot.

[Miracles]

So then even base Jiren is stronger than Broly?

There's a misunderstanding of the contents of fusion and it's impact on Toriyama's story...

6. Fusion [#BO2#FUS]
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of.

Toriyama using fusion against Broly, in order to demonstrate just how far above he is from any opponent we've seen so far, shows his preeminence. There is/was nothing Goku and Vegeta can do separately, to overcome a combined version of themselves.

[Sadala Elite]

It wouldn't be lame because that would be keeping the story's plot consistent. In BoG, Goku made a wager with Beerus. If he beat the destroyer, earth would be saved. So instead, Goku loses to Beerus. Which Toriyama stated himself; Goku's defeat was out of respect for Beerus and to give Goku a goal to shoot towards in the future. So, the consequences for being defeated was the obliteration of earth. However, Beerus stated that he would smash earth another time and told Goku to get stronger in order to have another showdown.

Add on to the fact how the plot confirmed at the end of the movie [more than once throughout the series too] that Goku will become an arch rival for Beerus. This narration for our protagonist never changed. The intrigue never said that Goku is a formidable opponent for Beerus ever in the story. Since the plot already established that both are going to fight again. This is what plot has been steadily building up to, Goku facing Beerus a second time around.

Dragonball is a story first, it isn't some fanfic comic, where it's emphasis is on "feats." Victory belts aren't defined by lifting/blowing up heavy objects. The story simply denying an arm wrestling contest as a standard for stronger fighter is proof of that. It's about how is the next, "always" strongest bad guy going to make our power hungry hero the strongest. DB has themes, a certain point it wants to reach, which builds our characters. It certainly does not bend itself to the fans desires or selective reading. The quicker people stop looking at DB solely as a power level spreadsheet the clearer they can see the scheme it is trying to accomplish.

Beerus hasn't offered anything of narrative worth after Battle of Gods. He's been a borderline nothing character since RoF, plays zero role in any of the (little) character growth that Goku or Vegeta get in Super, let alone power growth, and he and Whis generally ruin the tension of any plot (except the ToP arc) just by being around.

Absolutely nothing since RoF implies Goku and Beerus are gonna get a major rematch, so you are just projecting. Making Beerus a moving goalposts only adds to the problem. Its simply bad writing.

And the worst thing is, Beerus has little-to-no on screen proof of being stronger than even UI Omen Goku, let alone Broly, Jiren, SSB Fusion and MUI Goku. Actions speak louder than words (show don't tell), thats why feats matter.

The story did show us through TELLING that Goku is NOT an "arch rival" for Beerus yet. The plot can't even tell us if Broly, a character, who fought a full power Blue fusion Gogeta is stronger than Beerus. So all those so called "feats," you imagine, mean nothing when the current plot is holding Beerus up STILL as the benchmark for Goku.

I also have to chuckle at your statement about Beerus bringing no story importance. The one who introduced Goku to a new world with the god forms? Who allowed Whis to train Goku, so they could fight again for his growth? Who introduced Goku to other fighters from U6 through holding a tournament with Champa? Finally, who is still on Goku's radar, despite facing the current strongest Broly?

All this is leading back to what was stated in BoG. Where Goku said he will fight Beerus again. In RoF, where Whis made mention that Goku and Vegeta might have a chance against Beerus, if they fought him at the same time. In U6, Goku; stated, he was going to use Blue KK for Beerus, in the manga, the oracle fish reiterated again to Beerus how they will be formidable foes before the TOP arc. Now the Broly movie, Beerus is used again, as a goalpost. Which all confirms how Toriyama stated, in an interview, that Beerus is a goal Goku shoots for from the beginning.

Instead of falsely accusing the story of not being straight up about it's plan, pretending it's deceiving the audience, why not reread all mediums and Toriyama interviews on the subject. Just cause you don't like where the story is headed doesn't take away from the truth of the plot.

The last time Whis said that Goku was not yet a rival to Beerus was back in U6 arc, which was many power-ups ago.

The Broly movie itself has Goku stating that Broly likely above Beerus. Plus, the ToP (both versions) repeatingly has Jiren being stated to be above the GoDs.

"The one who introduced Goku to a new world with the god forms? Who allowed Whis to train Goku, so they could fight again for his growth? Who introduced Goku to other fighters from U6 through holding a tournament with Champa? Finally, who is still on Goku's radar, despite facing the current strongest Broly? "

Most of that was Whis, not Beerus. Also, the U6 arc was a glorified filler arc with not much story and zero stakes. And a lot of other characters are still on Goku's radar too (Broly, Jiren, Moro, Vegeta, Freeza, Hit, etc), so that doesn't prove anything about Beerus either.

[Thunderbird]

Toriyama using fusion against Broly, in order to demonstrate just how far above he is from any opponent we've seen so far, shows his preeminence. There is/was nothing Goku and Vegeta can do separately, to overcome a combined version of themselves.

That doesn't account for anything anymore.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm fairly certain that WHIS is the main goal at this point. I mean, he's the martial arts master who has yet to be surpassed, the only teacher Goku hasn't yet become greater than.

[Miracles]

Beerus hasn't offered anything of narrative worth after Battle of Gods. He's been a borderline nothing character since RoF, plays zero role in any of the (little) character growth that Goku or Vegeta get in Super, let alone power growth, and he and Whis generally ruin the tension of any plot (except the ToP arc) just by being around.

Absolutely nothing since RoF implies Goku and Beerus are gonna get a major rematch, so you are just projecting. Making Beerus a moving goalposts only adds to the problem. Its simply bad writing.

And the worst thing is, Beerus has little-to-no on screen proof of being stronger than even UI Omen Goku, let alone Broly, Jiren, SSB Fusion and MUI Goku. Actions speak louder than words (show don't tell), thats why feats matter.

The story did show us through TELLING that Goku is NOT an "arch rival" for Beerus yet. The plot can't even tell us if Broly, a character, who fought a full power Blue fusion Gogeta is stronger than Beerus. So all those so called "feats," you imagine, mean nothing when the current plot is holding Beerus up STILL as the benchmark for Goku.

I also have to chuckle at your statement about Beerus bringing no story importance. The one who introduced Goku to a new world with the god forms? Who allowed Whis to train Goku, so they could fight again for his growth? Who introduced Goku to other fighters from U6 through holding a tournament with Champa? Finally, who is still on Goku's radar, despite facing the current strongest Broly?

All this is leading back to what was stated in BoG. Where Goku said he will fight Beerus again. In RoF, where Whis made mention that Goku and Vegeta might have a chance against Beerus, if they fought him at the same time. In U6, Goku; stated, he was going to use Blue KK for Beerus, in the manga, the oracle fish reiterated again to Beerus how they will be formidable foes before the TOP arc. Now the Broly movie, Beerus is used again, as a goalpost. Which all confirms how Toriyama stated, in an interview, that Beerus is a goal Goku shoots for from the beginning.

Instead of falsely accusing the story of not being straight up about it's plan, pretending it's deceiving the audience, why not reread all mediums and Toriyama interviews on the subject. Just cause you don't like where the story is headed doesn't take away from the truth of the plot.

The last time Whis said that Goku was not yet a rival to Beerus was back in U6 arc, which was many power-ups ago.

The Broly movie itself has Goku stating that Broly likely above Beerus. Plus, the ToP (both versions) repeatingly has Jiren being stated to be above the GoDs.

"The one who introduced Goku to a new world with the god forms? Who allowed Whis to train Goku, so they could fight again for his growth? Who introduced Goku to other fighters from U6 through holding a tournament with Champa? Finally, who is still on Goku's radar, despite facing the current strongest Broly? "

Most of that was Whis, not Beerus. Also, the U6 arc was a glorified filler arc with not much story and zero stakes. And a lot of other characters are still on Goku's radar too (Broly, Jiren, Moro, Vegeta, Freeza, Hit, etc), so that doesn't prove anything about Beerus either.

You didn't refute anything but just ignored many other narrative examples from the story and interviews I used. For example, You FALSELY said Whis was the one who introduced Goku to a new world when it was Beerus who had the beef with Champa to SETUP the tournament. Beerus is the one who had the prophecy about the Saiyan god from the beginning. Who sought out Goku and introduced him to the god realm.

Jiren was stated in story to only be factually stronger than Belmond. Not all the gods. You got it all wrong. You also claiming U6 arc is "filler" when Toriyama outlined it together is just you illogically lashing out again. Just cause you don't like where the story is going doesn't mean you can hand wave it. You are going to have to do better than just venting your feelings, thinking that will usurp the story facts about Goku becoming a arch rival for Beerus so they could have another fight.

Toriyama using fusion against Broly, in order to demonstrate just how far above he is from any opponent we've seen so far, shows his preeminence. There is/was nothing Goku and Vegeta can do separately, to overcome a combined version of themselves.

That doesn't account for anything anymore.

This is just you talking. You are aren't an authority on Dragonball. Since Super is a continuation of Toriyama's original Dragonball manga that line about fusion counts for everything.

[Thunderbird]

This is just you talking. You are aren't an authority on Dragonball. Since Super is a continuation of Toriyama's original Dragonball manga that line about fusion counts for everything.

Nah that's long out of date.

[Miracles]

This is just you talking. You are aren't an authority on Dragonball. Since Super is a continuation of Toriyama's original Dragonball manga that line about fusion counts for everything.

Nah that's long out of date.

You are factually wrong. Since Super continues from the manga. Therefore not being out of date.

[Thunderbird]

The comments worthless now.

Anyone else have anything useful to add?

[Miracles]

The comments worthless now.

Anyone else have anything useful to add?

So you keep saying but you haven't' proved it. So far, all you have is head canon. If Goku and Vegeta were to merge right now, with the powers they have achieved in the Galactic Patrol arc, the fusions battle power wouldn't be above and beyond anything Goku and Vegeta could achieve individually?

If you want to deny facts in favor of making up your own story for Dragonball, just say so. At least have the decency to let the other poster know you have no intention of having a sincere discussion for accuracy. Instead prefer theoretical prating.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The comments worthless now.

Anyone else have anything useful to add?

It's interesting to note that SSB Fusions are in the same ranking as Ultra Instinct Goku in most media, which suggests that Goku using the form is independent of Fusion's power. It might be because it's a power only Goku can manifest between him and Vegeta.

Either way, that's essentially SSB multiplied by SSB, which we know to be true because base Gogeta/Vegito are portrayed as equal and perhaps even slightly stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, which can be determined due to Super Saiyan Gogeta matching Ikari SS Broly whose Ikari form matched SSB Goku.

[Thunderbird]

If you want to deny facts in favor of making up your own story for Dragonball, just say so. At least have the decency to let the other poster know you have no intention of having a sincere discussion for accuracy. Instead prefer theoretical prating.

Ok stop whining now. You're getting yourself all agitated.

Either way, that's essentially SSB multiplied by SSB, which we know to be true because base Gogeta/Vegito are portrayed as equal and perhaps even slightly stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, which can be determined due to Super Saiyan Gogeta matching Ikari SS Broly whose Ikari form matched SSB Goku.

But what does that actually have to say about how Broly compares to Jiren?

Broly is probably stronger than Beerus and Jiren is out of Belmod's league even without him breaking his limits.

So is base Jiren stronger than Broly or is Belmod just really weak compared to Beerus?

[Hugo Boss]

But what does that actually have to say about how Broly compares to Jiren?

Broly is probably stronger than Beerus and Jiren is out of Belmod's league even without him breaking his limits.

So is base Jiren stronger than Broly or is Belmod just really weak compared to Beerus?

I think this question was answered in the previous pages of this thread. There is nothing confirmed about how Broli compares to Jiren or how strong Beerus truly is.

[Thunderbird]

What about in promotional material?

[Koitsukai]

What about in promotional material?

I guess it is just that, material to promote and hype a product or character. To me, if it didn't make the final cut through statements or feats, it never happened.

Belmod and Beerus were implied to be on the same level, nothing points to one being much stronger than the other like SS2 Gohan and Cell Games SS Goku, if anything Belmod has the physical edge or proved it once at least, admitted by Beerus himself. If Belmod were to be way weaker than Beerus, it would contradict in-universe statements by the wisest character of U7, so I'd say no to that one until the show addresses it. To me they are somewhat equals, no matter who is stronger.

I'll play the devil's advocate: FPSS Broly could be stronger than Beerus and at the same time surpass regular FP Jiren. He can surpass the GoDs by 1 and FPSS Broly by 2 for all we know.
Although, his boost from SS to FPSS wasn't that amazing, he was definitely going to defeat SS Gogeta even if he could actually block one of Broly's attack. I'm thinking with his power ups he got stronger than that because if he stayed the same as he was in that weird dimension he wouldn't be a match for Beerus.

I don't think we need to have FPSS Broly weaker than base Jiren, he should at least be on his level, if both have surpassed their hakaishin that seem to be evenly matched. Jiren, even weaker, would probably tame him with his skillset though.

[Thunderbird]

Well if Belmod and Beerus were the same then you'd have to think base Jiren should be stronger than Broly.

It was said that Belmod stood no chance against Jiren whereas Broly was only supposed to probably be stronger than Beerus. So if he is stronger it's not implied to be by much.

[Miracles]

Ok stop whining now. You're getting yourself all agitated.

You are the one begging the question, still trying to make Jiren relevant here in 2020.

Tell you what, when Goku is at a level that will stomp previous opponents, when he is facing Beerus again, who is supposedly weaker than Jiren, then we will talk, lol.

[Hugo Boss]

It was said that Belmod stood no chance against Jiren

It wasn’t clear cut as this in the anime. It was only rumored that Vermoud couldn’t defeat Jiren, no given circunstancies or specific event to back it up. Maybe they had a brawl like Goku and Beerus?! In the manga, Top talks specifically about Jiren’s battle power being greater than Vermoud’s, and doesn’t compare them in the several other fighting aspects. In resume, you can infer that Jiren is probably stronger than Vermoud as well. Then, even if Beerus and Vermoud are at about the same level and if Goku is on point, you can’t tell which one between Jiren and Broli is the strongest.

Though, in the anime Jiren’s battle power greatly increases after whatever event he had so far with Vermoud, so maybe he is stronger than Broli?! Who knows.. I don’t think you will have a satisfying answer for this. There are a couple of “ifs” to consider, notably one that Beerus is being saved for a future plot point.