Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Psajdak
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Psajdak » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:56 pm

I have a feeling there won't actually be second Goku vs Beerus match, similar to how there won't be second Goku vs Jiren, etc...

There will probably be some new enemy that will be stronger than them, and Goku will defeat that enemy...

You get the point. :yawn:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:53 am

Thoughts on Goku & Vegeta's power by the end of DBS. Will their power cap at angel tier or close to GP level?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:40 am

Miracles wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:29 pm
You are the one begging the question, still trying to make Jiren relevant here in 2020.
Calm yourself.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:15 pm
It wasn’t clear cut as this in the anime. It was only rumored that Vermoud couldn’t defeat Jiren, no given circunstancies or specific event to back it up. Maybe they had a brawl like Goku and Beerus?! In the manga, Top talks specifically about Jiren’s battle power being greater than Vermoud’s, and doesn’t compare them in the several other fighting aspects. In resume, you can infer that Jiren is probably stronger than Vermoud as well. Then, even if Beerus and Vermoud are at about the same level and if Goku is on point, you can’t tell which one between Jiren and Broli is the strongest.

Though, in the anime Jiren’s battle power greatly increases after whatever event he had so far with Vermoud, so maybe he is stronger than Broli?! Who knows.. I don’t think you will have a satisfying answer for this. There are a couple of “ifs” to consider, notably one that Beerus is being saved for a future plot point.
Well in the anime in 110 Whis said that Jiren's power was within the realm of or even greater than a destroyers. Then he said the rumour of a mortal who their own God of Destruction has no chance against seems to be true.

So Belmod just apparently would just stand no chance against Jiren. Whereas Broly is only probably stronger than Beerus. So if Beerus and Belmod are the same then the way they described makes Jiren out to sound stronger even when that's not counting his super full power form which was strong enough to overpower Ultra Instinct Goku which in turn stomped base Jiren.

Unless Beerus is somehow drastically stronger than Belmod then Jiren should be stronger than Broly by a good amount.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:04 am

Thunderbird wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:40 am
Well in the anime in 110 Whis said that Jiren's power was within the realm of or even greater than a destroyers. Then he said the rumour of a mortal who their own God of Destruction has no chance against seems to be true.

So Belmod just apparently would just stand no chance against Jiren. Whereas Broly is only probably stronger than Beerus. So if Beerus and Belmod are the same then the way they described makes Jiren out to sound stronger even when that's not counting his super full power form which was strong enough to overpower Ultra Instinct Goku which in turn stomped base Jiren.

Unless Beerus is somehow drastically stronger than Belmod then Jiren should be stronger than Broly by a good amount.
This is not what Whis said. He confirmed that what he said to Goku before was a rumor and assumed Jiren perhaps was the mortal who (presumably) Vermoud couldn’t defeat. Only that. He didn’t make a direct statement nor had an actual basis for his claim. Yet Broli was said to be probably stronger than Beerus. Goku actually fought them both, so it seems a stronger assumption.

Anyway, even if both descriptions are correct, they don’t weigh the respective differences like “this one is much stronger” or “that one is only a bit stronger”.
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:53 am
Thoughts on Goku & Vegeta's power by the end of DBS. Will their power cap at angel tier or close to GP level?
In theory they would rival Beerus. That’s what the Oracle Fish said.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:13 am

Hugo Boss

Well I remember Vegeta stating he wanted to surpass them all or at least Whis. Can't remember the exact episode, though it might have been his ego getting the best of him.

I do believe UI from the Top definitely poses a great threat to Beerus, although he can't get the job done due to the time limit. I'd imagine by the end of the series Both Goku & Vegeta would be leaps and bounds above the other GOD at the very least.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:51 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:04 am
This is not what Whis said.
Yes it is. Pay attention to the show.

"If I had to say, he is within the realm of being a destroyer. Or perhaps beyond even that already. The rumour that there is a universe that has a mortal against whom even their destroyer is no match would appear to be true."

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:47 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:13 am
Hugo Boss

Well I remember Vegeta stating he wanted to surpass them all or at least Whis. Can't remember the exact episode, though it might have been his ego getting the best of him.

I do believe UI from the Top definitely poses a great threat to Beerus, although he can't get the job done due to the time limit. I'd imagine by the end of the series Both Goku & Vegeta would be leaps and bounds above the other GOD at the very least.
That was probably episode 14 when Vegeta was wondering about the strength of the gods. I’m talking about the manga chapter in which Oracle Fish reiterates his prophecy that Goku and Vegeta will be formidable opponents to Beerus. Honestly, I don’t know how this will work out considering how strong Jiren was.

Thunderbird wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:51 pm
"If I had to say, he is within the realm of being a destroyer. Or perhaps beyond even that already. The rumour that there is a universe that has a mortal against whom even their destroyer is no match would appear to be true."
I don’t know where you got these lines from, but given how it uses “destroyer” instead of “God of Destruction”, it seems it is a fan translation. Try an official broadcasting service. Anyway, even going by this “no match” clause, we don’t know how strong one needs to be to become unmatched in this particular context. Remember we are discussing assumptions from the characters, not feasible facts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:29 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:47 pm
I don’t know where you got these lines from, but given how it uses “destroyer” instead of “God of Destruction”, it seems it is a fan translation. Try an official broadcasting service. Anyway, even going by this “no match” clause, we don’t know how strong one needs to be to become unmatched in this particular context. Remember we are discussing assumptions from the characters, not feasible facts.
The lines come from the official subtitles found on the Funimation Home Video release, no it isn't a fan translation.

If Belmod is no match for Jiren where Beerus probably is or isn't stronger than Broly then it'd be quite clear that the advantage should sure go to Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:22 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:29 pm
The lines come from the official subtitles found on the Funimation Home Video release, no it isn't a fan translation.

If Belmod is no match for Jiren where Beerus probably is or isn't stronger than Broly then it'd be quite clear that the advantage should sure go to Jiren.
Honestly I don’t understand why an official sub would use “destroyer” to refer to Hakaishin, but okay. My bad for not believing your source.

Back to the point, Goku doesn’t say that Broli is “perhaps” but rather “probably” stronger than Beerus. Then, you can work out like this: Beerus is “probably” no match for Broli, while Vermoud is “perhaps” no match for Jiren. I could say “probably” is a bit more direct than “perhaps”, but that would be foolhardy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:04 pm

I don't know about that, if Goku thinks that Broly is only probably stronger than Beerus then it also means he could probably not be either.

There seemed to be no doubt at all that base Jiren was above Belmod. Super Full Power Jiren should be able to wreck Belmod like he was nothing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:52 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:04 pm
I don't know about that, if Goku thinks that Broly is only probably stronger than Beerus then it also means he could probably not be either.
No: if Broly is probably stronger than Beerus then it's POSSIBLE(not probable) Beerus might be as strong or stronger than Broly.

There seemed to be no doubt at all that base Jiren was above Belmod. Super Full Power Jiren should be able to wreck Belmod like he was nothing.
There is no doubt Jiren is stronger than Belmod.
The only doubt is if he was stronger already when playing with 1st Omen Goku or when he was Serious against Goku&Vegeta(+17) or when he went Full Power against 3rd Omen Goku


Given the absolutely gigantic jump between Full Power and Super Full Power, though, there is little doubt Super Full Power Jiren is stronger than Beerus, unless Beerus himself is as strong as Raging MUI Goku.
And we know Beerus had yet to master UI, so that's quite unlikely(though not impossible: Jiren himself doesn't have UI yet is on that level)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:56 am

Is God of Destruction Toppo stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:59 pm

Thunderbird

That's a tough one. Toppo smashed SSBE who was even with SSB KKx20 Goku Ep. 123 who both made Jiren power up more than he did in ep. 110... While Kefka one hit SSB KK?? As a regular SS let alone SS2 + SS2 enraged. I'd say, both are even power wise... The Hakai might be a problem tho.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:05 pm

Blue evolution Vegeta is only equal to Blue KK. Stated by TOEI.
Kefla's SSJ1 form was equal to the spirit bomb that overpowered Goku's BlueKKX20.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:52 pm

Vegeta being equal to Goku's Kaioken is irrelevant. Toppo's strength surpassed that and Vegeta after having the rage boost was drastically more powerful than before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:13 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:05 pm
Blue evolution Vegeta is only equal to Blue KK. Stated by TOEI.
Kefla's SSJ1 form was equal to the spirit bomb that overpowered Goku's BlueKKX20.
Ep 123 SSBKKx20 >> Ep 115 SSBKKx20

Goku gets stronger after each time he uses UI, that's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:15 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:52 pm
Vegeta being equal to Goku's Kaioken is irrelevant. Toppo's strength surpassed that and Vegeta after having the rage boost was drastically more powerful than before.
Plus, Toppo was stated to be the 2nd biggest threat to U7, implying that he's at max stronger than Kefla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:42 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:52 pm
Vegeta being equal to Goku's Kaioken is irrelevant. Toppo's strength surpassed that and Vegeta after having the rage boost was drastically more powerful than before.
It isn't irrelevant, especially when the directors come out and said that AFTER Super ends. They were both equal after the TOP.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:13 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:05 pm
Blue evolution Vegeta is only equal to Blue KK. Stated by TOEI.
Kefla's SSJ1 form was equal to the spirit bomb that overpowered Goku's BlueKKX20.
Ep 123 SSBKKx20 >> Ep 115 SSBKKx20

Goku gets stronger after each time he uses UI, that's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last.
No, each UI omen was stronger cause he was reaching the level of gods by getting closer to mastering UI. Nowhere was it stated they just grew randomly overall in strength.
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:44 pm

I believe for sure that Hakaishin Toppo was stronger than SS2 Kefla.

He was making a fool out of SSBE Vegeta and instantly put down the likes of Golden Freeza earlier. I'm fairly confident he's even stronger than Ikari SS Broly in terms of numerical power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:52 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:42 pm
Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:52 pm
Vegeta being equal to Goku's Kaioken is irrelevant. Toppo's strength surpassed that and Vegeta after having the rage boost was drastically more powerful than before.
It isn't irrelevant, especially when the directors come out and said that AFTER Super ends. They were both equal after the TOP.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:13 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:05 pm
Blue evolution Vegeta is only equal to Blue KK. Stated by TOEI.
Kefla's SSJ1 form was equal to the spirit bomb that overpowered Goku's BlueKKX20.
Ep 123 SSBKKx20 >> Ep 115 SSBKKx20

Goku gets stronger after each time he uses UI, that's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last.
No, each UI omen was stronger cause he was reaching the level of gods by getting closer to mastering UI. Nowhere was it stated they just grew randomly overall in strength.
You are making the false assumption that transformations are tiers and that Goku & Vegeta didnt get any stronger outside of new forms (which is easily debunked).

SSBKK & SSBE being equal means that they have the same multiplier, not that SSBKK from ep.123 was equal in power to the one from ep.109

Whis himself in the anime said that Goku gets stronger after each time he uses UI (the Omen boost itself never changed, Goku did), and there's numerous feats to back it up too.

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