Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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ankokudaishogun
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:30 am

most likely scenario is #17 being retconned to be 3-to-God level instead of Blue

in the end, he never really showed anything Blue-class in the manga

EDIT: except maybe his barrier

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:32 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:30 am
most likely scenario is #17 being retconned to be 3-to-God level instead of Blue

in the end, he never really showed anything Blue-class in the manga

EDIT: except maybe his barrier
Even if that would make everything much more pallatable and it's what I believed prior to seeing that statement, Goku and Vegeta compared him to themselves.
The difference between SSJ Blue and completed SSJ Blue is already big, which would have to be added to the difference between SSJ God and SSJ Blue, and whatever difference in power there could be between #17 and a SSJ God.

That's quite a difference for Goku to speak as if 17 is in the same ballpark as them.

Let's see how the future events in the manga go (it wouldn't be the first time the manga retconed something, even in Z that happened at least once).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:43 am

MechaTrunks wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:32 am
The difference between SSJ Blue and completed SSJ Blue is already big
It isn't though? SSB can vary in power from being weaker than SSG to it's full strength, which is the "completed" SSB. There's fundamentally no difference in actual power between SSB when Goku first unleashed the full power on Hit in the U6 tournament, and when Goku fought Fused Zamasu, the only difference is the former power could only be unleashed for a moment while the latter could be sustained for as long as he could keep the transformation up. We aren't actually given any indication that Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form has gotten any stronger until this arc, actually.

Keep in mind Goku and Vegeta commented that they wouldn't get any stronger from training for 3 years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and Vegeta's goal from training in the HTC during the Goku Black arc wasn't to gain power, but to train to utilize SSG/SSB switching to keep up SSB's full strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:20 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:43 am
It isn't though? SSB can vary in power from being weaker than SSG to it's full strength, which is the "completed" SSB. There's fundamentally no difference in actual power between SSB when Goku first unleashed the full power on Hit in the U6 tournament, and when Goku fought Fused Zamasu, the only difference is the former power could only be unleashed for a moment while the latter could be sustained for as long as he could keep the transformation up. We aren't actually given any indication that Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form has gotten any stronger until this arc, actually.

Keep in mind Goku and Vegeta commented that they wouldn't get any stronger from training for 3 years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and Vegeta's goal from training in the HTC during the Goku Black arc wasn't to gain power, but to train to utilize SSG/SSB switching to keep up SSB's full strength.
I agree on most of what you say, but when I say big I mean big in terms of Dragon Ball (since it's Goku the one saying 17 is in their ballpark of power).
Let's take the fight against Zamatsu as a basis (and if we agree that the SSJB didn't increse in strength in the trainings in the RoSat -something I also think-):
- Regular SSJBlue could do nothing against him even when they were two vs 1.
- That regular SSJBlue was already a good deal above SSJGod (in fact, I don't recall a single instance of the SSJB being weaker than the SSGod form in the manga -unless we're speaking of weakened SSJBlues of course-).
-Then completed SSJBlue surpassed him even if just by a tiny bit.

This difference (the one between SSG and completed SSJB) would be a 50-60% increase in power, a bit more maybe? They may not seem big by our standards, but I doubt anyone within the DB universe would say that such difference in power is not big.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:57 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:37 am
Miracles wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:27 pm
Goku stated 17 was as strong as him. TOEI said Toriyama gave 17 such ability to fight Blue.
This is a unanimous decision of the producers of the product. Besides, 17 didn't even fight SSJ3, the fight was stopped.
Yes, I didn't recall that statement (I don't know the DBS manga as well as the original one unfortunately) so there's nothing to be discussed here:
#17 is in the ballpark of the SSJ Blue, which unfortunately makes this Moro saga the worst written saga of the whole DBS manga and more resembling the pre-saiyan saga Dragon Ball than the level of writting we saw after it.
Why is the writing bad in this arc?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:55 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:57 pm
Why is the writing bad in this arc?
Because that fight alone would require a lot of assumptions just to be coherent. I mean, there was a reason why in most of the fights the Z-warriors sat at the bench and only interfered in very concrete moments, and that was because you can't team a 10 million units fighter with a 3 million units fighter vs a 13 milliion unit fighter and call it a day.
Never, in any single fight of Z (or even prior to that) you saw characters with such disparity in power levels fighting neck to neck, because the reality of what should happen is that the weaker fighters should be absolutely killed without being able to do anything.

But here we have Piccolo that was capped at weaker than a FP SSJ already in Z (and Super respected that until that last chapter), Mystic Gohan that should double his strength at the very least, #18 which is an incognite and #17 that's multiple times stronger than Gohan all fighting at the same pace, coordinating movements to make cool scenes and taking the same damage from a guy that:
1. I'm supposed to believe that Moros criminal henchmen is carefully modulating the strength of his hits to adapt to each one of the fighters?
That's impossible.
2. Or is it that Toyotarou has gone the full fanservice path, which I'm a bit disappointed because he always managed to find an interesting inbetween that I found very entertaining, but this last chapters fells very cheap.
The like the Black saga (in the manga) a lot precisely because it managed to give Trunks and even Kaioshin very prominent roles without feeling cheap in any moment.
Trunk's strategies to divert Black's attention were good enough to be plausible, Black didn't want to kill Trunks so he could train (which explained Trunks surviving that many times) and once the fight started he took the back-seat, still had a role in healing Goku and entered the fight when it actually made sense.
The same with kaioshin, he's the shunkanido boy in the saga and saves Trunk's life becoming crucial for the plot.

In the ToP there was a reason as for why much weaker characters could surprise the stronger ones, because killin was forbidden and anyone had to adapt to who they were fighting against. This allowed for the excellent Mutenroshi vs Jiren scene, where Mutenroshi takes full advantage of that fact and is able to have a very crucial role while still being weak as fuck compared to any other fighter in that match.

But now? I can't think of a single reason as of why Piccolo or even Mystic Gohan are still alive if this fight is in the SSJGod levels.
I hope Toyotarou explains this or thinks about it twice, because I don't want the DBS manga to turn into full fanservice.

Regards!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:49 am

This is what I've been thinking myself too.
It's too weird having Piccolo coordinating with Gohan if he is not, even remotely, in his ballpark. He should be muuuuch slower and weaker than him if he was the same Piccolo as Z, capped at SSJFP.
Him being able to keep up with Gohan, survive Saganbo AND Goku's comment, seem to imply that he's at least SSJ3/SSG level. Perhaps due to him training consistently with Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:57 am

wolflonnie wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:49 am
This is what I've been thinking myself too.
It's too weird having Piccolo coordinating with Gohan if he is not, even remotely, in his ballpark. He should be muuuuch slower and weaker than him if he was the same Piccolo as Z, capped at SSJFP.
Him being able to keep up with Gohan, survive Saganbo AND Goku's comment, seem to imply that he's at least SSJ3/SSG level. Perhaps due to him training consistently with Gohan.
Even that explanation would also be cheap writting.
Z and beginning of Super established some limits to the characters that are now completely broken.
Heck, the SSJ3 was considered to be the limit of the SSJ forms, and Goku spent years just to barely being able to use it for an hour.
When he acquired the God form, he said he was angry because that's a power he could've never accessed on his own.
And now Piccolo suddenly gets there after YEARS of not increasing his strength in a couple of months of training with Mystic Gohan?

If hope that Toyotarou simply had a bad month and/or that Toriyama wasn't able to supervise him and that this won't happen again.
If I want bad fanservice levels of writting I already have Dragon Ball Multiverse.

Regards!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:44 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:55 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:57 pm
Why is the writing bad in this arc?
Because that fight alone would require a lot of assumptions just to be coherent. I mean, there was a reason why in most of the fights the Z-warriors sat at the bench and only interfered in very concrete moments, and that was because you can't team a 10 million units fighter with a 3 million units fighter vs a 13 milliion unit fighter and call it a day.
Never, in any single fight of Z (or even prior to that) you saw characters with such disparity in power levels fighting neck to neck, because the reality of what should happen is that the weaker fighters should be absolutely killed without being able to do anything.

But here we have Piccolo that was capped at weaker than a FP SSJ already in Z (and Super respected that until that last chapter), Mystic Gohan that should double his strength at the very least, #18 which is an incognite and #17 that's multiple times stronger than Gohan all fighting at the same pace, coordinating movements to make cool scenes and taking the same damage from a guy that:
1. I'm supposed to believe that Moros criminal henchmen is carefully modulating the strength of his hits to adapt to each one of the fighters?
That's impossible.
2. Or is it that Toyotarou has gone the full fanservice path, which I'm a bit disappointed because he always managed to find an interesting inbetween that I found very entertaining, but this last chapters fells very cheap.
The like the Black saga (in the manga) a lot precisely because it managed to give Trunks and even Kaioshin very prominent roles without feeling cheap in any moment.
Trunk's strategies to divert Black's attention were good enough to be plausible, Black didn't want to kill Trunks so he could train (which explained Trunks surviving that many times) and once the fight started he took the back-seat, still had a role in healing Goku and entered the fight when it actually made sense.
The same with kaioshin, he's the shunkanido boy in the saga and saves Trunk's life becoming crucial for the plot.

In the ToP there was a reason as for why much weaker characters could surprise the stronger ones, because killin was forbidden and anyone had to adapt to who they were fighting against. This allowed for the excellent Mutenroshi vs Jiren scene, where Mutenroshi takes full advantage of that fact and is able to have a very crucial role while still being weak as fuck compared to any other fighter in that match.

But now? I can't think of a single reason as of why Piccolo or even Mystic Gohan are still alive if this fight is in the SSJGod levels.
I hope Toyotarou explains this or thinks about it twice, because I don't want the DBS manga to turn into full fanservice.

Regards!
Since 17 was stated to be just as strong as Goku in the TOP and Gohan was stated to be strongest after Goku/Vegeta in this arc [iirc]. We have to assume Gohan is indeed in Blue's weight class in the TOP. Especially now that he is much stronger than his TOP self, it's not bad writing to see why he is surviving so far.

Piccolo keeping up with Gohan while being weaker is probably bad writing. I want to say it's happened before in the Z team against Nappa tho? Not sure.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:59 am

Android 17 is not just as strong as Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:24 pm

God, the power scaling is so messed up, my head hurts trying to figure things out, while keeping track of all of the inconsistencies. You simply can't make sense of it
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:23 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:59 am
Android 17 is not just as strong as Goku.

For the manga, I agree. He has shown nothing that would indicate he's that strong. The most he's done is kinda get the upper hand over SS3 Goku.

I think he's approaching SSG levels at best. Goku saying he's just as strong as us is total bs as he can't even sense the Androids. 17 hasn't shown enough.

In the Anime, I'd say he's U6 SSB Goku level or a bit stronger... That explains his performance against Toppo in the beam clash.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:13 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:59 am
Android 17 is not just as strong as Goku.
Goku: "...just about as strong as us."

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:50 am

But he clearly isn't so Goku was wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:22 am

On a logical level it makes no sense, all the viewers know it, but somehow what they've shown us says otherwise, unfortunately. I love 17, but I don't buy it. I could accept frieza being a prodigy, but 17 getting to GOD level after fighting poachers? Meanwhile characters like Piccolo keep on training, and they're still below ss2/ss3 level?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:07 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:22 am
On a logical level it makes no sense, all the viewers know it, but somehow what they've shown us says otherwise, unfortunately. I love 17, but I don't buy it. I could accept frieza being a prodigy, but 17 getting to GOD level after fighting poachers? Meanwhile characters like Piccolo keep on training, and they're still below ss2/ss3 level?
But 17 was stronger than Freeza before both of them trained.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:36 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:07 pm
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:22 am
On a logical level it makes no sense, all the viewers know it, but somehow what they've shown us says otherwise, unfortunately. I love 17, but I don't buy it. I could accept frieza being a prodigy, but 17 getting to GOD level after fighting poachers? Meanwhile characters like Piccolo keep on training, and they're still below ss2/ss3 level?
But 17 was stronger than Freeza before both of them trained.
Not even close. 17 was 1/3 Freeza in the Cell saga, but the thing here is that Freezer was a natural prodigy while A17 was a random human with an unlimited energy generator inside.
A17 getting stronger doesn't make any sense because his strength came from Dr. Guero's machines and not himself.
Miracles wrote:Since 17 was stated to be just as strong as Goku in the TOP and Gohan was stated to be strongest after Goku/Vegeta in this arc [iirc]. We have to assume Gohan is indeed in Blue's weight class in the TOP. Especially now that he is much stronger than his TOP self, it's not bad writing to see why he is surviving so far.

Piccolo keeping up with Gohan while being weaker is probably bad writing. I want to say it's happened before in the Z team against Nappa tho? Not sure.
Yeah, that sentence of Goku even if he isn't being literal puts 17 in at least the God level of power, but I don't know about Gohan being above him. That being said, here we have Piccolo keeping up with Gohan so unless we have good explanations (I doubt it) this chapter will simply be a mess.

Regarding the z-warriors fight against Nappa, none of them kept up. All they could do was to try cheap attacks while Nappa was distracted (something that can be coordinated even at different levels of strength), but nothing comparable to what we have seen in this last chapter of the manga.

Regards!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:36 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:50 am
But he clearly isn't so Goku was wrong.
Now 17 isn't, due to Goku's extraordinary training. Back then it is a fact that 17 was.
MechaTrunks wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:36 pm
Miracles wrote:Since 17 was stated to be just as strong as Goku in the TOP and Gohan was stated to be strongest after Goku/Vegeta in this arc [iirc]. We have to assume Gohan is indeed in Blue's weight class in the TOP. Especially now that he is much stronger than his TOP self, it's not bad writing to see why he is surviving so far.

Piccolo keeping up with Gohan while being weaker is probably bad writing. I want to say it's happened before in the Z team against Nappa tho? Not sure.
Yeah, that sentence of Goku even if he isn't being literal puts 17 in at least the God level of power, but I don't know about Gohan being above him. That being said, here we have Piccolo keeping up with Gohan so unless we have good explanations (I doubt it) this chapter will simply be a mess.

Regarding the z-warriors fight against Nappa, none of them kept up. All they could do was to try cheap attacks while Nappa was distracted (something that can be coordinated even at different levels of strength), but nothing comparable to what we have seen in this last chapter of the manga.

Regards!
Thanks for the clear up about Nappa vs Z warriors. It's just bad writing then, how Piccolo can keep up with Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:28 pm

No, back in the Tournament Gohan was weaker than Goku and Android 17 is not even as strong as Gohan. Android 17 was never as strong as Goku, not in the manga or anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:45 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:28 pm
No, back in the Tournament Gohan was weaker than Goku and Android 17 is not even as strong as Gohan. Android 17 was never as strong as Goku, not in the manga or anime.
They were in the same level of power...God tier. That's the point. Of course they are still weaker than Goku despite that fact.

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