Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

On a logical level it makes no sense, all the viewers know it, but somehow what they've shown us says otherwise, unfortunately. I love 17, but I don't buy it. I could accept frieza being a prodigy, but 17 getting to GOD level after fighting poachers? Meanwhile characters like Piccolo keep on training, and they're still below ss2/ss3 level?

But 17 was stronger than Freeza before both of them trained.

Not even close. 17 was 1/3 Freeza in the Cell saga, but the thing here is that Freezer was a natural prodigy while A17 was a random human with an unlimited energy generator inside.
A17 getting stronger doesn't make any sense because his strength came from Dr. Guero's machines and not himself.

Since 17 was stated to be just as strong as Goku in the TOP and Gohan was stated to be strongest after Goku/Vegeta in this arc [iirc]. We have to assume Gohan is indeed in Blue's weight class in the TOP. Especially now that he is much stronger than his TOP self, it's not bad writing to see why he is surviving so far.

Piccolo keeping up with Gohan while being weaker is probably bad writing. I want to say it's happened before in the Z team against Nappa tho? Not sure.

Yeah, that sentence of Goku even if he isn't being literal puts 17 in at least the God level of power, but I don't know about Gohan being above him. That being said, here we have Piccolo keeping up with Gohan so unless we have good explanations (I doubt it) this chapter will simply be a mess.

Regarding the z-warriors fight against Nappa, none of them kept up. All they could do was to try cheap attacks while Nappa was distracted (something that can be coordinated even at different levels of strength), but nothing comparable to what we have seen in this last chapter of the manga.

Regards!

Nope. 17 was vastly stronger than Freeza in the Cell arc.

Hell, his weaker furure self had beaten Super Saiyan Future Gohan with less than half of his power.

[MechaTrunks]

Nope. 17 was vastly stronger than Freeza in the Cell arc.

Hell, his weaker furure self had beaten Super Saiyan Future Gohan with less than half of his power.

Future 17 was below Future Trunks SSJ (Trunks could fight both androids fairly well, even if he still lacked the strength to win), and we know Trunks SSJ was like SSJ Goku in Namek.
That Goku was 1/4 the strength of Freezer give or take (a bit less I would say), and Present 17 while stronger, is still a bit below kami-piccolo when it comes to pure strength.

Regards!

[Koitsukai]

Future 17 was stronger than Future Trunks. He even tells Goku that if there weren't two androids, he'd still need to escape. The manga never showed Trunks actually fighting the androids except when he kills them. And he killed Mecha Freeza, who several times said to be stronger than before and to be more than willing to prove it.

What would be the point of having weaker enemies and stronger protagonists?


-- On another note: what is the general understanding of Goku's base from RoF? the beyond god thing is suppose to be like an overcoming form (like he can't go SS, SS2, SS3 from there, only SSB?) or is that actually his weakest iteration available?

And if it was a form, we have to believe he dropped it, it was a temporary thing, part of his training towards SSB or what? in-universe speaking, of course.

[Sadala Elite]

Nope. 17 was vastly stronger than Freeza in the Cell arc.

Hell, his weaker furure self had beaten Super Saiyan Future Gohan with less than half of his power.

Future 17 was below Future Trunks SSJ (Trunks could fight both androids fairly well, even if he still lacked the strength to win), and we know Trunks SSJ was like SSJ Goku in Namek.
That Goku was 1/4 the strength of Freezer give or take (a bit less I would say), and Present 17 while stronger, is still a bit below kami-piccolo when it comes to pure strength.

Regards!

Completely false.

Both Future 17 & 18 were much stronger than any of the Super Saiyans before the ROSAT (who themselves were much stronger than Pre-RoF Freeza). They were toying with Future Trunks & Future Gohan for years just for entertainment, Trunks was never anywhere near their level before training in the ROSAT. Hell, in the original manga Future 17 even tells Future Gohan that "I wasn't even using half of my power" before killing him immediately afterwards.

Z-Freeza even with his cyber enhancements was completely weak compared to any Super Saiyan in Z. And Future Trunks in his 1st appearance was considerably stronger than SSJ1 Goku was on Namek. That's why Future Trunks killed Freeza and King Cold was zero effort.

[Sadala Elite]

Android 17 now is definitely SSB level in both the anime and manga. People only deny it because they don't like the idea of him being that strong (enough though he's natural stronger than Freeza without training).

[Thunderbird]

They were in the same level of power...God tier. That's the point. Of course they are still weaker than Goku despite that fact.

But you said "just as strong".

Goku also said "us" as in Vegeta. Android 17 is not as strong as Ultra Instinct or Super Saiyan Blue Evolved either.

Android 17 is weaker than a character that is weaker than Goku's weaker transformation.

[MechaTrunks]

Future 17 was stronger than Future Trunks. He even tells Goku that if there weren't two androids, he'd still need to escape. The manga never showed Trunks actually fighting the androids except when he kills them.

Trunks exaggerated the strength of the androids to ensure Goku & co would be ready in the present.
Later, after they are beaten by the Present androids, Trunks confesses that he in fact was able to fight fairly well aganst both of them at the same time (in the future), and that he only came back to the present not to defeat the androids but to create a parallel TL where the androids weren't there.

In fact, Cell travelled to the past precisely because future Trunks managed to kill the androids in his TL and without any RoSat training (since he killed them before coming back to the past for the 2nd time).

And he killed Mecha Freeza, who several times said to be stronger than before and to be more than willing to prove it.

Mecha thought he was stronger (he had reasons to think it) but we can't dismiss every single character sensing his strength saying that he's only a fraction of what he was in Namek.

What would be the point of having weaker enemies and stronger protagonists?

That's the Cell saga in a nutshell. I mean, during how many of the chapters in that saga is Cell the strongest fighter?
He spends most of it hidding from our protagonists.
When he's strong enough not to hide he absorbs A17 and is surpassed again by Vegeta & Trunks.
Then he gets his perfect body, but Goku already knew since the beginning that Gohan was much, much stronger (which turned to be true).

That being said, the SSJ in the beginning of the Cell saga were very far from Freezer (namek freezer that is), and were inferior to the Androids (the present ones at least) so there was a reason to fear the androids.

Both Future 17 & 18 were much stronger than any of the Super Saiyans before the ROSAT (who themselves were much stronger than Pre-RoF Freeza).

Nope, if that had been the case the Cell saga wouldn't have happened (or wouldn't be called Cell saga because Cell wouldn't have appeared). The future androids were weak enough to be killed by future Trunks SSJ (as we know him when he comes back from the future, that is, with a strength comparable to Namek SSJ Goku) and although it's true that they played with Gohan (we don't know in which circumstances) they surely weren't able to play with SSJ Trunks once he grew up.
Future Gohan never had Goku to train him and never learned to master his Ki, his SSJ form was probably very weak compared to present TL SSJs.

Hell, in the original manga Future 17 even tells Future Gohan that "I wasn't even using half of my power" before killing him immediately afterwards.

Gohan was very confident that he could defeat them and 17 is saying that he didn't use half his power IN HIS LAST FIGHT, not in the one SSJ Gohan is killed (that fight is off-paneled and we don't know how it went).

Z-Freeza even with his cyber enhancements

Cyber-Freeza was much weaker than Namek Freezer, his strength being only comparable to Cold while being in 2nd form. Everyone that knew him from Namek assumed he was repressing his strength a lot when he appeared in the earth and even Cold considered his son to be above him (demonstrating that they weren't aware of how weak cyber-Freezer had turned to be).

Regards!

[Hugo Boss]

[...] what is the general understanding of Goku's base from RoF? the beyond god thing is suppose to be like an overcoming form (like he can't go SS, SS2, SS3 from there, only SSB?) or is that actually his weakest iteration available?

And if it was a form, we have to believe he dropped it, it was a temporary thing, part of his training towards SSB or what? in-universe speaking, of course.

It is implied to be a highly trained base form, with god-like powerlevel, given the way Goku describes the blue form. It wasn’t given an explanation to why Goku and Vegeta can transform back to their old Super Saiyan forms.

[ankokudaishogun]

-- On another note: what is the general understanding of Goku's base from RoF? the beyond god thing is suppose to be like an overcoming form (like he can't go SS, SS2, SS3 from there, only SSB?) or is that actually his weakest iteration available?

in the movie? It was supposed to be his "new base", with his Super Saiyan transformation turning blue hair instead of blonde

[Kenneth La Torre]

Future 17 was stronger than Future Trunks. He even tells Goku that if there weren't two androids, he'd still need to escape. The manga never showed Trunks actually fighting the androids except when he kills them.

Trunks exaggerated the strength of the androids to ensure Goku & co would be ready in the present.
Later, after they are beaten by the Present androids, Trunks confesses that he in fact was able to fight fairly well aganst both of them at the same time (in the future), and that he only came back to the present not to defeat the androids but to create a parallel TL where the androids weren't there.

In fact, Cell travelled to the past precisely because future Trunks managed to kill the androids in his TL and without any RoSat training (since he killed them before coming back to the past for the 2nd time).

And he killed Mecha Freeza, who several times said to be stronger than before and to be more than willing to prove it.

Mecha thought he was stronger (he had reasons to think it) but we can't dismiss every single character sensing his strength saying that he's only a fraction of what he was in Namek.

What would be the point of having weaker enemies and stronger protagonists?

That's the Cell saga in a nutshell. I mean, during how many of the chapters in that saga is Cell the strongest fighter?
He spends most of it hidding from our protagonists.
When he's strong enough not to hide he absorbs A17 and is surpassed again by Vegeta & Trunks.
Then he gets his perfect body, but Goku already knew since the beginning that Gohan was much, much stronger (which turned to be true).

That being said, the SSJ in the beginning of the Cell saga were very far from Freezer (namek freezer that is), and were inferior to the Androids (the present ones at least) so there was a reason to fear the androids.

Both Future 17 & 18 were much stronger than any of the Super Saiyans before the ROSAT (who themselves were much stronger than Pre-RoF Freeza).

Nope, if that had been the case the Cell saga wouldn't have happened (or wouldn't be called Cell saga because Cell wouldn't have appeared). The future androids were weak enough to be killed by future Trunks SSJ (as we know him when he comes back from the future, that is, with a strength comparable to Namek SSJ Goku) and although it's true that they played with Gohan (we don't know in which circumstances) they surely weren't able to play with SSJ Trunks once he grew up.
Future Gohan never had Goku to train him and never learned to master his Ki, his SSJ form was probably very weak compared to present TL SSJs.

Hell, in the original manga Future 17 even tells Future Gohan that "I wasn't even using half of my power" before killing him immediately afterwards.

Gohan was very confident that he could defeat them and 17 is saying that he didn't use half his power IN HIS LAST FIGHT, not in the one SSJ Gohan is killed (that fight is off-paneled and we don't know how it went).

Z-Freeza even with his cyber enhancements

Cyber-Freeza was much weaker than Namek Freezer, his strength being only comparable to Cold while being in 2nd form. Everyone that knew him from Namek assumed he was repressing his strength a lot when he appeared in the earth and even Cold considered his son to be above him (demonstrating that they weren't aware of how weak cyber-Freezer had turned to be).

Regards!

you are very miss Iinformed, and i suggest you actually go re read the entire android to cell saga story. no one is taking you serious what so ever with these non-sense statements.

[MechaTrunks]

you are very miss Iinformed, and i suggest you actually go re read the entire android to cell saga story. no one is taking you serious what so ever with these non-sense statements.

I'm pretty sure I know the Cell saga much better than you do, the proof is that you dismiss the statements that doesn't fit your narrative while I incorporate every statement made in the manga in order to say what I say.
Trunks stated that he could fight BOTH androids fairly well, and Cell confirmed that by telling us that Trunks managed to kill the future androids in the 1st TimeLine (where Cell comes from, after killin Trunks, by the way).

Everything else is also based on statements from the manga, the proof is that you're unable to contradict what I say with well constructed arguments, and have to limit your posts to this kind of un-argumented rant.

Regards!

[Koitsukai]

Trunks exaggerated the strength of the androids to ensure Goku & co would be ready in the present.
Later, after they are beaten by the Present androids, Trunks confesses that he in fact was able to fight fairly well aganst both of them at the same time (in the future), and that he only came back to the present not to defeat the androids but to create a parallel TL where the androids weren't there.

In fact, Cell travelled to the past precisely because future Trunks managed to kill the androids in his TL and without any RoSat training (since he killed them before coming back to the past for the 2nd time).


Mecha thought he was stronger (he had reasons to think it) but we can't dismiss every single character sensing his strength saying that he's only a fraction of what he was in Namek.


That's the Cell saga in a nutshell. I mean, during how many of the chapters in that saga is Cell the strongest fighter?
He spends most of it hidding from our protagonists.
When he's strong enough not to hide he absorbs A17 and is surpassed again by Vegeta & Trunks.
Then he gets his perfect body, but Goku already knew since the beginning that Gohan was much, much stronger (which turned to be true).

That being said, the SSJ in the beginning of the Cell saga were very far from Freezer (namek freezer that is), and were inferior to the Androids (the present ones at least) so there was a reason to fear the androids.

-Nah, DB has mechanically enhanced characters being much stronger than their previous self. Cyborg Tao was 5x stronger, the androids from humans to defeating SS, and of course Mecha Freeza with much, much, more advanced technology is not going to be the exception. Specially if he is so sure about it.
-Nobody said he was using a fraction of his power, not even Freeza boasted about it. Gohan saying he can become even stronger than the power they felt does not equate to your claims, after a year who wouldn't expect him to be able to do that? About Freeza, I'll go with Freeza's claim over Gohan's.

-Trunks DID NOT exaggerate, there would be no need, they are not pacifists or skeptical and he already got Goku's trust, he would only need to bloat Goku's illness if anything. His comment after fight meant he never was one-shot like that, the future androids do not compare to the present ones, that's the subtext of it, not that he's been misinforming people all along. We know nothing about Cell's original timeline, we know power fluctuates from timeline to timeline, those assumptions are yours and yours only.

-Cell is made of Freeza, his dad, and the people that killed him. Being weaker as an adult than one of his donors is illogical and supported by nothing.

-The original timeline had SS Goku coming from Yadrat and killing Freeza and King Cold, that means Freeza's new power aided by his dad didn't prevent them from dying. And I bet they took Goku seriously that time. Even in Namek, Goku told him to heal, train and try it again some other time. He can't touch super saiyans, sorry.

Nothing supports Freeza being powerwise relevant after Trunks was introduced.

Regards!

[Miracles]

They were in the same level of power...God tier. That's the point. Of course they are still weaker than Goku despite that fact.

But you said "just as strong".

Goku also said "us" as in Vegeta. Android 17 is not as strong as Ultra Instinct or Super Saiyan Blue Evolved either.

Android 17 is weaker than a character that is weaker than Goku's weaker transformation.

Goku said "about as strong" that means in the realm of power, not literally equals.

[Sadala Elite]

Future 17 was stronger than Future Trunks. He even tells Goku that if there weren't two androids, he'd still need to escape. The manga never showed Trunks actually fighting the androids except when he kills them.

Trunks exaggerated the strength of the androids to ensure Goku & co would be ready in the present.
Later, after they are beaten by the Present androids, Trunks confesses that he in fact was able to fight fairly well aganst both of them at the same time (in the future), and that he only came back to the present not to defeat the androids but to create a parallel TL where the androids weren't there.

In fact, Cell travelled to the past precisely because future Trunks managed to kill the androids in his TL and without any RoSat training (since he killed them before coming back to the past for the 2nd time).

And he killed Mecha Freeza, who several times said to be stronger than before and to be more than willing to prove it.

Mecha thought he was stronger (he had reasons to think it) but we can't dismiss every single character sensing his strength saying that he's only a fraction of what he was in Namek.

What would be the point of having weaker enemies and stronger protagonists?

That's the Cell saga in a nutshell. I mean, during how many of the chapters in that saga is Cell the strongest fighter?
He spends most of it hidding from our protagonists.
When he's strong enough not to hide he absorbs A17 and is surpassed again by Vegeta & Trunks.
Then he gets his perfect body, but Goku already knew since the beginning that Gohan was much, much stronger (which turned to be true).

That being said, the SSJ in the beginning of the Cell saga were very far from Freezer (namek freezer that is), and were inferior to the Androids (the present ones at least) so there was a reason to fear the androids.

Both Future 17 & 18 were much stronger than any of the Super Saiyans before the ROSAT (who themselves were much stronger than Pre-RoF Freeza).

Nope, if that had been the case the Cell saga wouldn't have happened (or wouldn't be called Cell saga because Cell wouldn't have appeared). The future androids were weak enough to be killed by future Trunks SSJ (as we know him when he comes back from the future, that is, with a strength comparable to Namek SSJ Goku) and although it's true that they played with Gohan (we don't know in which circumstances) they surely weren't able to play with SSJ Trunks once he grew up.
Future Gohan never had Goku to train him and never learned to master his Ki, his SSJ form was probably very weak compared to present TL SSJs.

Hell, in the original manga Future 17 even tells Future Gohan that "I wasn't even using half of my power" before killing him immediately afterwards.

Gohan was very confident that he could defeat them and 17 is saying that he didn't use half his power IN HIS LAST FIGHT, not in the one SSJ Gohan is killed (that fight is off-paneled and we don't know how it went).

Z-Freeza even with his cyber enhancements

Cyber-Freeza was much weaker than Namek Freezer, his strength being only comparable to Cold while being in 2nd form. Everyone that knew him from Namek assumed he was repressing his strength a lot when he appeared in the earth and even Cold considered his son to be above him (demonstrating that they weren't aware of how weak cyber-Freezer had turned to be).

Regards!

Completely wrong again, and your post sound like nonsense that goes against what we actually see in the manga and anime.

Mecha Freeza was frequently stated and shown to be stronger than Namek saga Freeza in both the actual series and in every official guide like the Daizenshuu. Mecha Freeza was suppressed on Earth before the fight with Trunks began. So that means that any possible argument for Mecha Freeza being weaker can be dismissed (if he was weaker then he would have never considered invading Earth to fight Goku again). And the fact that SSJ1 Trunks killed him easily in his debut proves that he was already way stronger than Namek arc SSJ1 Goku.

Future Trunks was weaker than Future Gohan before training in the ROSAT. This was stated and shown in both the original manga and the History of Trunks anime. To say Future Gohan got no training is false headcanon because it doesn't make any sense (he wouldn't have survived as long as he did if that was the case) .And to say that Future Trunks exaggerated the strength of the Androids is nonsense headcanon because the series shows the exact opposite: Trunks was completely surprised by the apparent greater power of the Present Androids. And the manga implied that Future 17 killed Future Gohan after telling him "I wasn't even using half my power this whole time", which logically means that the Future Androids were just toying with the Saiyan this whole time.

SSJ1 Vegeta at the early Android arc was shown (and stated by Piccolo) to have been stronger than post 3 years training SSJ1 Goku (who even before the 3 years of training was already stronger than Z-Freeza), yet he was casually beat down by Android 18. If these Androids from either timeline could so easily beat SSJ1s that are stronger than Namek arc SSJ1 Goku, then they could easily just one shot Z-Freeza. So there's no evidence that Z-Freeza in any form was stronger than the Androids, he was way weaker than them.

[MechaTrunks]

-Nah, DB has mechanically enhanced characters being much stronger than their previous self. Cyborg Tao was 5x stronger, the androids from humans to defeating SS, and of course Mecha Freeza with much, much, more advanced technology is not going to be the exception. Specially if he is so sure about it.
-Nobody said he was using a fraction of his power, not even Freeza boasted about it. Gohan saying he can become even stronger than the power they felt does not equate to your claims, after a year who wouldn't expect him to be able to do that? About Freeza, I'll go with Freeza's claim over Gohan's.

In the Cell saga the strongest of the androids was the only one that didn't had any mechanised part, so that argument can be spinned and is not a solid proof by itself.
I judge every character by the statements and feats/facts, and it's obvious that in terms of battle-androids, Guero's technology was above anything the Freezer army ever achieved.

We have a conflict of statements regarding Mecha Freezer: on one hand he is convinced he is stronger now, on the other, the ones sensing his energy think he isn't.
So besides siding with who we think is right (I would argue Gohan is the one being right, since Freezer can't sense energies and has no means of measuring kis), we have to look at the facts: Mecha Freezer was completely obliterated by someone with a strength comparable to SSJ Namek Goku, a fighter he was able to match in Namek despite being badly injured.

Injured 100% Namek Freezer = SSJ Namek Goku = SSJ Trunks >>>> Mecha Freezer going by the feats (and Gohan's statements).

-Trunks DID NOT exaggerate, there would be no need, they are not pacifists or skeptical and he already got Goku's trust, he would only need to bloat Goku's illness if anything.

I disagree on that. Even if they're not pacifists, they still were killed in the future TL because they weren't strong enough.
Trunks wanted to avoid the future repeating in the same way at any cost, and even if the z-warriors wouldn't have stopped training even if not being warned of the danger, with such an imposing menace it's obvious that they would double their efforts in preparing for the fight.

But Trunks exaggerating the strength of the androids makes a lot of sense once we know what his goal was and how he was as a character (he's not like the rest of the z-warriors. He tried to kill Cell while transforming, he tried to kill the androids in the lab before they could escape. He didn't want to enjoy a good fight, he just wanted to protect the future at any cost).

His comment after fight meant he never was one-shot like that, the future androids do not compare to the present ones, that's the subtext of it, not that he's been misinforming people all along. We know nothing about Cell's original timeline, we know power fluctuates from timeline to timeline, those assumptions are yours and yours only.

Trunks KILLED the future androids, that's why Cell had to come to the past in the first place.
If it was only Trunks's statement saying that (and even then, Trunks says he could fight the androids fairly well, implying that he was close to both of them, otherwise you wouldn't use that expresion to describe it), but the fact of him destroying the androids further proves that he was not exagerating: he could really fight the future androids with chances to win.

-Cell is made of Freeza, his dad, and the people that killed him. Being weaker as an adult than one of his donors is illogical and supported by nothing.

Perfect Cell was the best of the best of all of his donators, I never said that he was below Freezer.
Imperfect Cell was still not completed, he stil was not the perfect fighter he was designed to be, so he clearly could be inferior to any of his donators.

-The original timeline had SS Goku coming from Yadrat and killing Freeza and King Cold, that means Freeza's new power aided by his dad didn't prevent them from dying. And I bet they took Goku seriously that time. Even in Namek, Goku told him to heal, train and try it again some other time. He can't touch super saiyans, sorry.

True, but also had him dying much sooner implying that the SSJ wasn't enough to deafeat Cold.
Since Mecha Freezer only had a fraction of his original strength he would've been killed in the future TL as easily as he was in the Present one, just with Goku (or even Vegeta or Piccolo) ending his misery.

Nothing supports Freeza being powerwise relevant after Trunks was introduced.

On the opposite, Cell having Freezer cells is still spoken as a big deal by everyone, and knowing how many people had to absorb Cell in order to surpass kami-colo and the androids also gives us the reference we need to estimate the power of the SSJs.
It's in the cell saga that we can realise how injured Freezer was after the Genkidama and how strong he really was in comparison to regular, untrained SSJ.

Mecha Freeza was frequently stated and shown to be stronger than Namek saga Freeza in both the actual series and in every official guide like the Daizenshuu. Mecha Freeza was suppressed on Earth before the fight with Trunks began.

Frequently? Mecha Freezer only appears for a couple of chapters and he's never mentioned again.
And the official guide contradicted the manga in dozens of places, it's not a source that can be used when the manga points towards a different direction.

Mecha Freezer was NOT supressed, he was scared of Trunks, no one attacks suppressing his own strength if he is scared of his opponent.

So that means that any possible argument for Mecha Freeza being weaker can be dismissed (if he was weaker then he would have never considered invading Earth to fight Goku again).

The whole point of that scene is that neither Freezer nor his father are aware of Freezer's real strength.
What doesn't make any sense is for Freezer to fight supressed as you say when he was scared of the SSJ. He fought with all his strength (the one he already had) which was what Gohan considered to be him going supressed.

And the fact that SSJ1 Trunks killed him easily in his debut proves that he was already way stronger than Namek arc SSJ1 Goku.

But then we have SSJ Goku matchin SSJ Trunks in strength while stating that he hasn't had time to train besides learning a new technique and to transform at will.
And we also have Gohan stating that Trunks has the same Ki as his father in Namek.
I mean, this happens even if you don't like it.

Future Trunks was weaker than Future Gohan before training in the ROSAT. This was stated and shown in both the original manga and the History of Trunks anime.

Future Trunks was able to fight agains the future androids, so he had to be at least at the same level as future Gohan when he was killed if not stronger.
And never in the manga it's said that future Gohan was stronger than Future Trunks, in fact it's the opposite, the last time Trunks tries to fight the androids he is confident because he has surpased Gohan.

To say Future Gohan got no training is false headcanon because it doesn't make any sense (he wouldn't have survived as long as he did if that was the case) .

Goku died before the androids appeared and every other z-warrior died in the fight against them.
The training Gohan could have gotten in that context is minimal. We also know that Goku didn't force Gohan to train (the first training Gohan ever had was with Piccolo) so he wouldn't have trained as much as he did in the present TL to prepare for the androids.
That's not head-canon, it's simply common sense.

And to say that Future Trunks exaggerated the strength of the Androids is nonsense headcanon because the series shows the exact opposite: Trunks was completely surprised by the apparent greater power of the Present Androids.

He literally says that he could fight the androids fairly well and, in fact, he actually managed to destroy the androids in his original Time Line.
I mean, what more proofs do you need? HE DESTROYED THE ANDROIDS! How was he able to do that if he, according to you, was no match for them?
And he did that without any RoSat training, we're speaking of the exact same Trunks that says what he says in the present TL.

SSJ1 Vegeta at the early Android arc was shown (and stated by Piccolo) to have been stronger than post 3 years training SSJ1 Goku (who even before the 3 years of training was already stronger than Z-Freeza)

SSJ1 Goku was implied to be much inferior to Z-Freeza, unless you somehow ignore every single writting rule regarding fights in DB.
I mean, a badly injured Freezer fought at the same level of a SSJ, in Dragon Ball this means that Freezer was much above them.

And in fact, Toriyama himself confirmed that Goku SSJ had just 1/4 the strength of Namek Freezer in an interview. If the manga itself wasn't alone, we have the author confirming this himself.

Regards!

[DBZ Macky]

Heyo everyone, so my designated Powar Levuls channel just hit its 4th year anniversary this week!
And... with the recent state of things with the quarantine and all, I guess this is as good of a time as I'll ever get to expend my unused brain cells on Dragon Ball Super's horrendous power scaling after a such a long time!

I'd say most of the fellas here with their own power level lists have similar opinions on the scaling for the "Z" portion of the series. Of course, I can't say for everyone, but I've seen ZombieVito's list for example, as well as Kaboom's list, and I can pretty much agree with everything there.

The main points of contention arise as soon as Super Saiyan God appears, and even more so when it abruptly disappears only to reappear again. It's 2020 and we still don't know how strong exactly the Base Saiyans are supposed to be after Goku "absorbs Super Saiyan God's power" / trains with Whis.

Some people like Kaboom straight up opted to never touch the scaling for Dragon Ball Super, and I can understand why.

Some peeps like myself, Marlowe89 and ChiefWamsutta had proposed a "Two Base Theory" at the time of Super's run, and some of us might've changed our opinion on that, but it seemed to be the best way to make sense of Goku and Vegeta's inconsistent power level at the time. Basically, it boiled down to Goku and Vegeta being able to range from not being much stronger than their Boo arc bases to being as strong as SS God's power in their base forms (and sometimes, everything in between).

I've read the latest few posts and it's really wholesome to see a few familiar names from back in the day when Super was airing, still scratching their heads over the scaling, and it's also great to see some new names as well.

I would really like to hear you guys' current thoughts on the general power scaling of Super now that we've had over an year or two since the last episode. Y'know, thoughts on the usual questions like:
How strong do you think SSG was?
How strong was SSB/Base Goku in RoF?
How strong were Cabba and the other Universes' fighters compared to Goku and co.?
(When) did Goku actually surpass Beerus? etc.

Hope we're able to get the discussion going! And I suppose I should share my two cents on the latest posts as well.

-Nah, DB has mechanically enhanced characters being much stronger than their previous self. Cyborg Tao was 5x stronger, the androids from humans to defeating SS, and of course Mecha Freeza with much, much, more advanced technology is not going to be the exception. Specially if he is so sure about it.
-Nobody said he was using a fraction of his power, not even Freeza boasted about it. Gohan saying he can become even stronger than the power they felt does not equate to your claims, after a year who wouldn't expect him to be able to do that? About Freeza, I'll go with Freeza's claim over Gohan's.

We have a conflict of statements regarding Mecha Freezer: on one hand he is convinced he is stronger now, on the other, the ones sensing his energy think he isn't.
So besides siding with who we think is right (I would argue Gohan is the one being right, since Freezer can't sense energies and has no means of measuring kis), we have to look at the facts: Mecha Freezer was completely obliterated by someone with a strength comparable to SSJ Namek Goku, a fighter he was able to match in Namek despite being badly injured.

Yeah, I partly agree with both of your points. While Tao was much stronger with the Cybernetic enhancements, I don't think Freeza would necessarily be 5x stronger, given that mechanical enhancements shouldn't really be a "multiplier".

Personally, I think that the fact that Freeza brought Cold with him to fight Goku, and the fact that in the future, Goku was able to defeat both Freeza and Cold on his own despite spending a good chunk of his time on Yardrat recovering (as well as learning to tap into SS at will and learning Shunkan-Ido) and possibly not being much stronger than he was on Namek, leads precedence to Mecha Freeza being still slightly weaker than Namek Arc SS Goku.

IMO, SS Goku (Post Yardrat) > SS Trunks = SS Goku (Namek) > Mecha Freeza > Freeza (Namek)
going by Gohan's statement and my theory about Goku not being much stronger than he was on Namek.

-- On another note: what is the general understanding of Goku's base from RoF? the beyond god thing is suppose to be like an overcoming form (like he can't go SS, SS2, SS3 from there, only SSB?) or is that actually his weakest iteration available?

in the movie? It was supposed to be his "new base", with his Super Saiyan transformation turning blue hair instead of blonde

I'm still on the fence with this as I've mentioned, but I do think that Goku can still transform into SS, SS2 and SS3 from his maximum base power ("Saiyan Beyond God", you might say), however, it won't be strong enough to overpower opponents on that level of power requiring him to go Super Saiyan God / Super Saiyan Blue. And most characters who aren't at this level, despite being relatively strong like SS3 Gotenks, are still in one-shot range even in the full power of his base form.

I guess it sounds really confusing when I put it like that, but to put it into perspective:
Jiren, etc. >> SS Blue >> Hit, etc. >> SS God >= SS2 Kale, etc. >> SS3 Goku > SS2 Goku > SS Goku > Base Goku >>> SS3 Gotenks etc.

Please, do let me know what you think.

[Koitsukai]

In the Cell saga the strongest of the androids was the only one that didn't had any mechanised part, so that argument can be spinned and is not a solid proof by itself.
I judge every character by the statements and feats/facts, and it's obvious that in terms of battle-androids, Guero's technology was above anything the Freezer army ever achieved.

We have a conflict of statements regarding Mecha Freezer: on one hand he is convinced he is stronger now, on the other, the ones sensing his energy think he isn't.
So besides siding with who we think is right (I would argue Gohan is the one being right, since Freezer can't sense energies and has no means of measuring kis), we have to look at the facts: Mecha Freezer was completely obliterated by someone with a strength comparable to SSJ Namek Goku, a fighter he was able to match in Namek despite being badly injured.

Injured 100% Namek Freezer = SSJ Namek Goku = SSJ Trunks >>>> Mecha Freezer going by the feats (and Gohan's statements).


I disagree on that. Even if they're not pacifists, they still were killed in the future TL because they weren't strong enough.
Trunks wanted to avoid the future repeating in the same way at any cost, and even if the z-warriors wouldn't have stopped training even if not being warned of the danger, with such an imposing menace it's obvious that they would double their efforts in preparing for the fight.

But Trunks exaggerating the strength of the androids makes a lot of sense once we know what his goal was and how he was as a character (he's not like the rest of the z-warriors. He tried to kill Cell while transforming, he tried to kill the androids in the lab before they could escape. He didn't want to enjoy a good fight, he just wanted to protect the future at any cost).


Trunks KILLED the future androids, that's why Cell had to come to the past in the first place.
If it was only Trunks's statement saying that (and even then, Trunks says he could fight the androids fairly well, implying that he was close to both of them, otherwise you wouldn't use that expresion to describe it), but the fact of him destroying the androids further proves that he was not exagerating: he could really fight the future androids with chances to win.


Perfect Cell was the best of the best of all of his donators, I never said that he was below Freezer.
Imperfect Cell was still not completed, he stil was not the perfect fighter he was designed to be, so he clearly could be inferior to any of his donators.


True, but also had him dying much sooner implying that the SSJ wasn't enough to deafeat Cold.
Since Mecha Freezer only had a fraction of his original strength he would've been killed in the future TL as easily as he was in the Present one, just with Goku (or even Vegeta or Piccolo) ending his misery.



On the opposite, Cell having Freezer cells is still spoken as a big deal by everyone, and knowing how many people had to absorb Cell in order to surpass kami-colo and the androids also gives us the reference we need to estimate the power of the SSJs.
It's in the cell saga that we can realise how injured Freezer was after the Genkidama and how strong he really was in comparison to regular, untrained SSJ.

- It doesn't matter if Cell was the strongest android, it's not a mecha vs organic debate. The fact that mechanically enhanced characters improve is still true, Lapis and Lazuli were humans and were stronger after the modifications, the same goes for Dr Gero as A-20, so was Tao Pai Pai and so was Freeza. Cybernetic enhancements improve you in DB, Mecha Freeza unless explicitly stated against, should continue with said trend, more so considering his access to highly advanced technology, and that he said so several times. And Freeza not knowing how to sense ki is irrelevant, he's been in a lab for a year where he more than likely was informed about his progress and improvements. Besides being half machine probably has him knowing better about his situation than before.
Gohan could've been talking about Freeza's habit of always having one more trick up his sleeve and being cocky, for all we know. Having Gohan contradict Freeza would make no sense, he wasn't even that accurate in his description or that insistent about it. I'll value several statements over just one.

Also Freeza was NOT badly injured in Namek. Gohan was badly injured vs Cell, Vegeta was badly injured vs Fat Buu, but not Freeza, he was not incapacitated, not until he got cut in half. Goku was more battered than Freeza was.

- Trunks did NOT exaggerate. They died in the future because they had no idea about the androids, they weren't prepared, they were copying with Goku's sudden illness and death during half a decade of peace. Not because they half-assed their training and were too cocky about it.
There is no need to exaggerate anything, once you tell Goku that the androids killed EVERYBODY and that he didn't even get to fight, it's a done deal. They are experienced fighters, they don't need to be told a different story to engage them. Nothing implies he exaggerated, he was comparing the future and present androids who are way stronger.

- Again, those are your assumptions only. We know literally nothing about Cell's TL, we don't know how strong the Trunks Cell killed was. Future androids were weaker, Present androids way stronger, Cell's TL androids... who knows? how did Trunks killed them? can you confirm Trunks didn't brought back their blueprints and Future Bulma created a remote to stop them? no, because we know nothing about it. Not even Cell knows what happened.

- Adult Cell is 1st form Cell, he is like 28 years old and no longer growing, perfection aside, he is out of his cocoon, he is not a larva anymore. He is a many-decades finished product and now goes on to his next step of evolution that is absorbing others, he wasn't potentially complete but he was already developed. He can fight a supressed Kamiccolo who is waaay stronger than any pre-ROSAT SS. They sense Freeza and King Cold when he shows his ki, therefore him being weaker than Freeza would make no sense at all.
He is a clone of Freeza and many others, genetically he is stronger, and not because of 17 and 18. How could he be weaker than just one of his donors?

- Cold dying sooner doesn't imply SS wouldn't be enough for him. He had time to transform (if he could), but he chose to watch his son die and then cowardly tried to trick Trunks, that alone implies he had no chance against him.

-Freeza being Cell's donor isn't a big deal only because of he was the strongest donor, but because he was a sadistic psychopath that could not be trusted, and that was proved in the Cell Games to be the most dangerous quality of Cell, more so than his actual power.

[Koitsukai]

I would really like to hear you guys' current thoughts on the general power scaling of Super now that we've had over an year or two since the last episode. Y'know, thoughts on the usual questions like:
How strong do you think SSG was?
How strong was SSB/Base Goku in RoF?
How strong were Cabba and the other Universes' fighters compared to Goku and co.?
(When) did Goku actually surpass Beerus? etc.

- SSG to me was above BoG SS3 Vegito, or at least above SS Vegito.
- Base Goku in RoF has to be high Z tier. Freeza in his 1st form one-shot Gohan, so his final form has to be around Buutenks/Buuhan level of power, and Goku was slightly above that.
- Cabba seemed equal in base and somewhat below SS Vegeta, which going with RoF's base form would make Cabba a beast that eats Z alive, and that sounds weird.
- Goku I think surpassed Beerus with MUI. With Sign I think he got up there with him, give or take a kiri.

Yeah, I partly agree with both of your points. While Tao was much stronger with the Cybernetic enhancements, I don't think Freeza would necessarily be 5x stronger, given that mechanical enhancements shouldn't really be a "multiplier".

Personally, I think that the fact that Freeza brought Cold with him to fight Goku, and the fact that in the future, Goku was able to defeat both Freeza and Cold on his own despite spending a good chunk of his time on Yardrat recovering (as well as learning to tap into SS at will and learning Shunkan-Ido) and possibly not being much stronger than he was on Namek, leads precedence to Mecha Freeza being still slightly weaker than Namek Arc SS Goku.

IMO, SS Goku (Post Yardrat) > SS Trunks = SS Goku (Namek) > Mecha Freeza > Freeza (Namek)
going by Gohan's statement and my theory about Goku not being much stronger than he was on Namek.

I agree. I don't think Mecha Freeza has to be much stronger than his Namek self, being already in control of his FP could be enough to consider himself "stronger". Definitely not weaker though. Goku while not training on Yadrat, sure must gotten a huge zenkai boost after Namek.

[MechaTrunks]

- It doesn't matter if Cell was the strongest android, it's not a mecha vs organic debate. The fact that mechanically enhanced characters improve is still true, Lapis and Lazuli were humans and were stronger after the modifications, the same goes for Dr Gero as A-20, so was Tao Pai Pai and so was Freeza.

The fact that Tao Pai Pai, Lazuli and Lapis were improved through mechanical implants doesn't imply in any way that this was also the case for Freezer when all the facts point towards the opposite direction.

Cybernetic enhancements improve you in DB, Mecha Freeza unless explicitly stated against, should continue with said trend, more so considering his access to highly advanced technology, and that he said so several times.

The thing is that it was stated to be that way. Not only was his power sensed as being dormant when it wasn't, but we also have concrete feats proving he's below what he was in Namek with him being on par with his father while in 2nd form.

And Freeza not knowing how to sense ki is irrelevant, he's been in a lab for a year where he more than likely was informed about his progress and improvements.

False, the proof is that he (and Cold) still considered himself to be above anyone else (including Goku SSJ) and he was completely obliterated by a SSJ that had the exact same strength as Goku SSJ.
Freezer's doctors repaired him, he felt OK and he rushed back to the earth without testing himself (same that happens in RoF, by the way).

Besides being half machine probably has him knowing better about his situation than before.

Nothing indicated that. On the opposite, he assumed he was at least as strong as in Namek and without the stamina problems which we know he didn't have by the fact that he was already going 100%.

Gohan could've been talking about Freeza's habit of always having one more trick up his sleeve and being cocky, for all we know.

Gohan is not speculating, but answering Yamcha's question.
Yamcha: Was Freezer's power always this big?
Gohan: This is nothing. He can still increase it a lot more.

That's the scene, and that's the comparison Gohan draws: Mecha Freezer is nothing compared to Namek's Freezer. He then assume that Freezer is hidding his power (logic, from his POW that was the only explanation at that point), but we know this isn't the case from the Trunks vs Mecha fight.

Also Freeza was NOT badly injured in Namek. Gohan was badly injured vs Cell, Vegeta was badly injured vs Fat Buu, but not Freeza, he was not incapacitated, not until he got cut in half. Goku was more battered than Freeza was.

What? I mean, who are you to decide that?
Freezer was surely more visibly injured than Raditz after Gohan's attack if that's what you mean.
Him being badly injured is his own statement, and also that he was almost killed by the Genkidama.
This is not debatable, it's stated in the manga.

- Trunks did NOT exaggerate. They died in the future because they had no idea about the androids, they weren't prepared, they were copying with Goku's sudden illness and death during half a decade of peace. Not because they half-assed their training and were too cocky about it.
There is no need to exaggerate anything, once you tell Goku that the androids killed EVERYBODY and that he didn't even get to fight, it's a done deal. They are experienced fighters, they don't need to be told a different story to engage them. Nothing implies he exaggerated, he was comparing the future and present androids who are way stronger.

Look this is easy: Trunks came back to give Goku the medicine and to warn them about the androids.
The fact is that Trunks said he couldn't even fight one of the androids the first time, and that he could fight both of them fairly well the second time.
Both sentences are incompatible: so you can try to dismiss the one you don't like, or you can try to explain why Trunks may have contradicted himself.
My explanation is that he exgerated the strength of the androids the first time because as he later explains, the main reason for him to come back was that there could exist a TL with humanity on it and not the doomed future he came from.

The fact is that Trunks has 2 contradictory sentences, and 1 of them is supported by the facts (he killed the future androids in TL1).

- Again, those are your assumptions only. We know literally nothing about Cell's TL, we don't know how strong the Trunks Cell killed was. Future androids were weaker, Present androids way stronger, Cell's TL androids... who knows? how did Trunks killed them? can you confirm Trunks didn't brought back their blueprints and Future Bulma created a remote to stop them? no, because we know nothing about it. Not even Cell knows what happened.

If no chgs between the TLs were stated, then it's only logical that they wen't mostly the same.
You can't assume future Trunks reached SSJ2 in TL1 while the one that comes back to TL3 didn't increase his strength at all, because then it's you the one making assumptions.
Trunks says he is able to fight both androids fairly well and he kills them in one of the TLs, why is this fact so hard to accept to you?

- Adult Cell is 1st form Cell, he is like 28 years old and no longer growing, perfection aside, he is out of his cocoon, he is not a larva anymore. He is a many-decades finished product and now goes on to his next step of evolution that is absorbing others, he wasn't potentially complete but he was already developed. He can fight a supressed Kamiccolo who is waaay stronger than any pre-ROSAT SS. They sense Freeza and King Cold when he shows his ki, therefore him being weaker than Freeza would make no sense at all.
He is a clone of Freeza and many others, genetically he is stronger, and not because of 17 and 18. How could he be weaker than just one of his donors?

It doesn't matter how old he is or if he's on the cocoon or not. Your argument of Cell being an improved clone would be true if he didn't had to absrob the androids to complete himself.
He was an unfinished product, so it's only logical that he still wasn't as strong as the ones forming them.

- Cold dying sooner doesn't imply SS wouldn't be enough for him. He had time to transform (if he could), but he chose to watch his son die and then cowardly tried to trick Trunks, that alone implies he had no chance against him.

No, that only implies that Cold thought he had no chance against him (it's different).
Cold thought that Freezer was still as strong as before, and he saw Trunks cutting that Freezer that should be stronger than him.
Cold didn't try to fight against Trunks because he still considered himself below Freezer when that wasn't the case, and this wouldn't have happened in the future.
Goku would've told Mecha his true state and Cold would've fought in his true form.

The fact is that Goku in the future had to resort to the KK to win, something that didn't happen in the present TL.

-Freeza being Cell's donor isn't a big deal only because of he was the strongest donor, but because he was a sadistic psychopath that could not be trusted, and that was proved in the Cell Games to be the most dangerous quality of Cell, more so than his actual power.

Freezer wasn't more of a psycopath than Vegeta when he first came to the earth, it was feared because of his power and that's why Vegeta then gets anoyed reminding that Cell also has his Cells (Vegeta wouldn't react like that if Piccolo wasn't refering to Freezer's strength as the most problematic aspect of Cell).

Regards!

[Hugo Boss]

[...]
How strong do you think SSG was?
How strong was SSB/Base Goku in RoF?
How strong were Cabba and the other Universes' fighters compared to Goku and co.?
(When) did Goku actually surpass Beerus? etc.
[...]

- Strong enough to overshadow Super Saiyan 3 and stronger than any DBZ enemy before Beerus.
- Super Saiyan Blue was stronger than Super Saiyan God and weaker than Golden Freeza. Base Goku was stronger than Freeza, who was stronger than a regular Super Saiyan.
- If I were to rank U6, it would be something like this:
#1 - Hit, #2 - Magetta, #3 - Frost, #4 - Cabba, #5 - Botamo. Hit is about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue, but can outdo it with his techniques. Magetta is the most difficult opponent to Super Saiyan Vegeta. Frost and Super Saiyan Cabba are weaker than Super Saiyan Vegeta, but Frost seems a little stronger than Cabba, I’m not sure about it. And Botamo can be countered by Base Goku and Base Gohan. Let me know if you want a comprehensive tier list for the rest of the universes’ fighters.
- Goku and Vegeta still haven’t surpassed Beerus. That might be a plot point for the future.