Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[The Undying]

Some peeps like myself, Marlowe89 and ChiefWamsutta had proposed a "Two Base Theory" at the time of Super's run, and some of us might've changed our opinion on that, but it seemed to be the best way to make sense of Goku and Vegeta's inconsistent power level at the time.

Gotta say I'm surprised I'm still remembered in this thread. I don't post ITT very frequently at all anymore, mainly because I've more or less completely given up on trying to scale the anime at this point, but it's nice to have a shout-out here and there.

To be clear, my "two base theory" for the anime eventually developed into something more along the lines of a proposed retcon - as in Goku and Vegeta have a super strong godly base in the first two arcs, but were later nerfed to be pretty massively below that to align them with the rest of the franchise. This (in my mind) is proven when Beerus tells Goku he's still at "the level of the gods" after absorbing SSG in the BoG arc, only for the Hakaishin to later collectively note during the US arc that Goku reached "the level of the gods" only after transforming into his Blue form from SS1. That's a definite inconsistency, and one that can only be reconciled if you consider the base Saiyans getting a rather hefty downgrade out-of-universe.

As Dragon Wukong surmised, too many things in the DBS anime are too ambiguous to be adequately parsed, require (sometimes conflicting) fan speculation to make sense of, or flat-out contradict each other altogether. It's impossible to work with. It's obvious why this would be the case: Super's scriptwriting staff consists of several people all working on different episodes without a supervisor to guide them in the right direction or a pre-existing serialization to adapt, so it was arguably doomed from the start.

[MechaTrunks]

Toriyama DID co-wrote and approved the Daizenshuu guides (and others like the Super exciting guides), its a fact that you are denying. And they ALL say SSJ1 is 50x. If Toriyama always wanted SSJ1 to be only 10x then the guides that he co-write would say so.

Even if that was true, which it isn't the case, he surely didn't write or co-write the Power Level sections of those guides (full of impossible numbers from beginning to end, starting with 1500 Raditz and 4000 Nappa) that he would later ADDRESS in an interview.

SSJ1 being only 10x is a plot hole and contradiction, because that would make it weaker than Kaioken x20. There's no SSJ1 could have neared even 50% Freeza if SSJ1 was only 10x. And no, Freeza was never weakened on Namek nor as a Cyborg. You have been debunked.

No, the plothole would be Freezer not losing strength after being badly injured which is something that happens in every single fight of the series.
But the important think here is that YOU CAN'T ACKNOWLEDGE FACTS THAT CONTRADICTS YOU.

I mean, even if you think that Toriyama's vision makes no sense, you're still denying that he said what he said.
I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with Toriyama, the problem is when you lie just to prove your point: What Toriyama said is cristal clear, Goku SSJ wasn't a 50x boost to him but a 10x in Namek.

Now we can start debating if that 10x claim makes sense or if it doesn't (it clearly does), but what you can't do is to deny that Toriyama said what he said just because you don't like it.

Regards!

[Sadala Elite]

Toriyama DID co-wrote and approved the Daizenshuu guides (and others like the Super exciting guides), its a fact that you are denying. And they ALL say SSJ1 is 50x. If Toriyama always wanted SSJ1 to be only 10x then the guides that he co-write would say so.

Even if that was true, which it isn't the case, he surely didn't write or co-write the Power Level sections of those guides (full of impossible numbers from beginning to end, starting with 1500 Raditz and 4000 Nappa) that he would later ADDRESS in an interview.

SSJ1 being only 10x is a plot hole and contradiction, because that would make it weaker than Kaioken x20. There's no SSJ1 could have neared even 50% Freeza if SSJ1 was only 10x. And no, Freeza was never weakened on Namek nor as a Cyborg. You have been debunked.

No, the plothole would be Freezer not losing strength after being badly injured which is something that happens in every single fight of the series.
But the important think here is that YOU CAN'T ACKNOWLEDGE FACTS THAT CONTRADICTS YOU.

I mean, even if you think that Toriyama's vision makes no sense, you're still denying that he said what he said.
I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with Toriyama, the problem is when you lie just to prove your point: What Toriyama said is cristal clear, Goku SSJ wasn't a 50x boost to him but a 10x in Namek.

Now we can start debating if that 10x claim makes sense or if it doesn't (it clearly does), but what you can't do is to deny that Toriyama said what he said just because you don't like it.

Regards!

This is the most delusional response I've ever read.

- Toriyama is the main authority of ALL of these guides. He is the one who approves them for publication. This is a confirmed fact. And these guides all say that SSJ1 is 50x. YOU are the one that's in denial. If Toriyama wanted SSJ1 to be only 10x then all of these guides that he approved would say so and not 50x. Its simple logic

- The actually story (both anime and manga) say that Freeza was NEVER weakened at any point in Z, that he used his full power against SSJ1 Goku, and that Mecha Freeza > Namek Freeza. There is not a single quote from Toriyama or any guide that says otherwise.

- There is not a single quote from Toriyama or any official source that says that Freeza in Z was stronger than ANY of the main Androids. Your headcanon is not fact, its nonsense.

- You are forgetting Freeza's durability. Freeza is a character who could survive an exploding planet even after getting cut in half. To assume that he couldnt use his full power because of his injuries goes against the basis of Freeza's character. There's also the simple fact that Freeza himself (as well as Toriyama and every official guide) in the story says he uses his real 100% power and was never nerfed.

[Sadala Elite]

Some peeps like myself, Marlowe89 and ChiefWamsutta had proposed a "Two Base Theory" at the time of Super's run, and some of us might've changed our opinion on that, but it seemed to be the best way to make sense of Goku and Vegeta's inconsistent power level at the time.

Gotta say I'm surprised I'm still remembered in this thread. I don't post ITT very frequently at all anymore, mainly because I've more or less completely given up on trying to scale the anime at this point, but it's nice to have a shout-out here and there.

To be clear, my "two base theory" for the anime eventually developed into something more along the lines of a proposed retcon - as in Goku and Vegeta have a super strong godly base in the first two arcs, but were later nerfed to be pretty massively below that to align them with the rest of the franchise. This (in my mind) is proven when Beerus tells Goku he's still at "the level of the gods" after absorbing SSG in the BoG arc, only for the Hakaishin to later collectively note during the US arc that Goku reached "the level of the gods" only after transforming into his Blue form from SS1. That's a definite inconsistency, and one that can only be reconciled if you consider the base Saiyans getting a rather hefty downgrade out-of-universe.

As Dragon Wukong surmised, too many things in the DBS anime are too ambiguous to be adequately parsed, require (sometimes conflicting) fan speculation to make sense of, or flat-out contradict each other altogether. It's impossible to work with. It's obvious why this would be the case: Super's scriptwriting staff consists of several people all working on different episodes without a supervisor to guide them in the right direction or a pre-existing serialization to adapt, so it was arguably doomed from the start.

2-Base Theory was nonsense from the start. It only exist to downplay certain characters because they simply dont like the idea of them being that strong (regardless of onscreen proof) as well as an inability to accept the simple idea of Goku holding back his power. And its based on the misconception that god-ki has anything to do with raw power.

And Saiyan-beyond God was never retconned (feats count no matter what, there's no ambiguity). And any alleged inconsistencies stem from fandom biases and misconceptions about how strong Goku & Vegeta opponents are supposed to be, with nonsense complaints such as "there's no way base Cabba solo's Z" and other stuff. There's feats throughout all of Super that consistently show that Goku & Vegeta's base forms since RoF are stronger than SSG from BoG (like Base Goku matching Fit Buu before the ToP for example).

And you are mixing up 2 different quotes from Beerus about being at the "level of the gods". In the second quote he was referring to the Hakaishin, the 1st quote he's refering to god powers in general like SSG. Using that to claim that Saiyan-beyond god was ecer retconned is stupid.

[The Undying]

as well as an inability to accept the simple idea of Goku holding back his power

One reply in and you're already contradicting yourself.

If "feats count no matter what", you wouldn't be applying headcanon to maintain your preconceptions about Goku being at a specific level of power whenever they're challenged by the series. If you think he's holding back even during scenes where none of the characters acknowledge he's holding back, you're positing speculation in place of the narrative because you want to believe he's holding back.

Therefore, feats clearly only count for you when they're convenient. You're actively acknowledging the same thing you were trying to disprove when you said the anime wasn't ambiguous.

(like Base Goku matching Fit Buu before the ToP for example).

Skinny Boo was never implied to be on SSG's level and kept up with Goku just fine, so that's equally speculative. If anything, that whole skirmish can be (and has been) interpreted to support the exact opposite of what you're proposing.

But nobody knows, since the anime is never actually specific about most of this stuff.

And you are mixing up 2 different quotes from Beerus about being at the "level of the gods". In the second quote he was referring to the Hakaishin, the 1st quote he's refering to god powers in general like SSG.

Unfortunately for you, I'm not mixing up anything. Unfortunately for the time I've wasted having to respond to this post, you're making a lot of things up.

The original Japanese term for "level of the gods" is identical in both quotes, so it would obviously refer to the same thing; to pretend that it suddenly means something completely different the second time it's used (as opposed to the first time) is unsupported and nonsensical. You're really just twisting dialogue here, which is about as dishonest and biased as you can get when discussing explicit statements like these.

If you have to apply post-hoc reasoning to justify obvious in-universe disrepancies or keep your position intact, you've already foregone any claim to objectivity. You're literally starting from a conclusion and then reinterpreting everything to make it "fit" that same conclusion, even when it's not suggested by any of the characters in the scene. That's called begging the question, and it's a classic presuppositional fallacy.

Do better next time.

[dbgtFO]

Can't fault MechaTrunks aka freezamite for arguing for what he does, only the invisible kaio-ken x10 bothers me.

Mostly I blame Toriyama. That interview with the translation we're given says what MechaTrunks says it does, Toriyama drew it as 10x, but it was established(by who?) as 50x, which he thought was too much.

In any case although we have cases, where Toriyama put his foot down and vetoed certain ideas and concepts, he doesn't always do that and will allow for stuff different, than what he intended. His comment on the hair colors of the Saiyans in the Bardock movie makes that clear; his personal thought is that full blooded Saiyans have black hair, but he ok'ed the possibility of the anime having Saiyans with other hair colors(though he would later in the manga establish all full blooded Saiyans to have black hair, so here it was not just a thought he had).

But it can be argued, that although his original vision is one thing, the fact that he has allowed the vast majority of official sources to peddle quite another idea, utterly invalidates the original intent as fact, ensuring the new idea is in fact the case.
As for Freeza losing power, it isn't stated quite as clearly as one would like, but it's the natural conclusion one would draw considering the statements provided by MechaTrunks.
Furthermore in RoF, penned entirely by Toriyama, he has Freeza state, that he will start out in his final form, so he won't get caught off guard like last time he fought Goku, which is an odd statement to make, if it wasn't the case, that he couldn't fight at absolute full power the last time and thus making the whole being caught off guard thing irrelevant.

I feel like RoF is what happens, when both of them are fresh from the start, which results in Freeza being naturally stronger, when both are at absolute full power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So the latest SDBH episode is out. Nothing really unexpected.

Beerus is stronger than the likes of SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and base Time Patrol Trunks with his sword without even trying. But that was obvious already.

Though Krillin and Piccolo are the only ones to fall to their knees when the Universe Tree starts sucking up energy from the Earth and others planets all over the universes. Gohan, 17, and the Xeno versions of Goku and Vegeta are also present but fine. So Piccolo and Krillin are the weakest ones present, even with all the Saiyans in their base forms.

[Lionel]

I honestly don't mind Piccolo having improved greatly. Does it seem unfoundedly spontaneous? Kind of. It's because his power was never considered noteworthy since halfway to maybe 2/3rds of the way through the Cell arc if you hold Goku's observations of his power up in any regard post ROSAT. After that scene you have a few implicative narrational choices like Piccolo being picked over the kids and Frost requiring Super Saiyan to be overwhelmed despite having lost much of his stamina in two previous matches during the Champa arc.

It's nothing that seems all too significant but if fill-ins like Shisami, Tagoma, Dyspo, and others can become so strong then why not the famed Child of Katas?

Now the Super Saiyan form's amplifier -- despite what Toriyama claims, it wouldn't make sense for it to be 10 times greater than base. Since Kaioken was brought up as having a greater threshold than that, we could also cite Oozaru with its in-manga amplifer of 10 times just like this desired amplifier. If both the giant were-ape form and the golden superman form were equal to one another past girth then why would the latter be mythologised so much outside of tradition and lack of familiarity of just how strong it is?

[MechaTrunks]

This is the most delusional response I've ever read.

- Toriyama is the main authority of ALL of these guides. He is the one who approves them for publication. This is a confirmed fact. And these guides all say that SSJ1 is 50x. YOU are the one that's in denial. If Toriyama wanted SSJ1 to be only 10x then all of these guides that he approved would say so and not 50x. Its simple logic

If you think that Toriyama wrote those guides you're even more ignorant than I thought, really.
The only thing that we know 100% for sure that Toriyama wrote from his hands, besides the manga, is that interview where HE SAYS that 50x is an exaggeration and that he drew those scenes with a 10x on mind.

This is what Toriyama SAID:

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

It was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold ALREADY IMPLIES that this whas what OTHER PEOPLE UNDERSOOD.
And if the ones claiming Goku got a 50x power up are the GUIDES, it's obvious that Toriyama DIDN'T WROTE THOSE GUIDES.

Are you seriously trying to demonstrate that Toriyama didn't write what he wrote based on your baseless assumption that he wrote the guides?
You have NO PROOF that Toriyama wrote those guides (and more specifically, those sections of the guides), and you are trying to deny something we know 100% he actually said because it was an interview HE MADE? For real?

- The actually story (both anime and manga) say that Freeza was NEVER weakened at any point in Z, that he used his full power against SSJ1 Goku, and that Mecha Freeza > Namek Freeza. There is not a single quote from Toriyama or any guide that says otherwise.

That's a lie, not only Freeza says his power has decreased, but in every single fight in the series when a character is injured he loses strength.
You not understanding those basic Dragon Ball rules is not Toriyama's fault.
And stop using your "100% means he didn't lose strength" fallacy as if I hadn't tried to explain you 20 times that 100% just means "going all out".

- There is not a single quote from Toriyama or any official source that says that Freeza in Z was stronger than ANY of the main Androids. Your headcanon is not fact, its nonsense.

There's not a single quote from Toriyama or any official source saying that Kid bu was stronger than Pilaf but hey, I can understand that by myself.
It seems this is not your case.

- You are forgetting Freeza's durability. Freeza is a character who could survive an exploding planet even after getting cut in half. To assume that he couldnt use his full power because of his injuries goes against the basis of Freeza's character. There's also the simple fact that Freeza himself (as well as Toriyama and every official guide) in the story says he uses his real 100% power and was never nerfed.

Cell also had Freezer's cells and durability but his head got disintegrated by a KameHame Ha. So what?
Freeza wouldn't have survived cut in half if it wasn't because Goku gave him some Ki, he was agonizing after being cut (and how wasn't he even able to fly to escape the planet, if he still was in his buffed-100% form that according to you means he was at full power?).

Freezer's character was never immune to injuries (just very sturdy) as proven by the fact that after being cut he wasn't even able to fly. Why wouldn't he? He didn't lose any strength when injured right?

Can't fault MechaTrunks aka freezamite for arguing for what he does, only the invisible kaio-ken x10 bothers me.

Mostly I blame Toriyama. That interview with the translation we're given says what MechaTrunks says it does, Toriyama drew it as 10x, but it was established(by who?) as 50x, which he thought was too much.

In any case although we have cases, where Toriyama put his foot down and vetoed certain ideas and concepts, he doesn't always do that and will allow for stuff different, than what he intended. His comment on the hair colors of the Saiyans in the Bardock movie makes that clear; his personal thought is that full blooded Saiyans have black hair, but he ok'ed the possibility of the anime having Saiyans with other hair colors(though he would later in the manga establish all full blooded Saiyans to have black hair, so here it was not just a thought he had).

But it can be argued, that although his original vision is one thing, the fact that he has allowed the vast majority of official sources to peddle quite another idea, utterly invalidates the original intent as fact, ensuring the new idea is in fact the case.
As for Freeza losing power, it isn't stated quite as clearly as one would like, but it's the natural conclusion one would draw considering the statements provided by MechaTrunks.
Furthermore in RoF, penned entirely by Toriyama, he has Freeza state, that he will start out in his final form, so he won't get caught off guard like last time he fought Goku, which is an odd statement to make, if it wasn't the case, that he couldn't fight at absolute full power the last time and thus making the whole being caught off guard thing irrelevant.

I feel like RoF is what happens, when both of them are fresh from the start, which results in Freeza being naturally stronger, when both are at absolute full power.

Thank you for your opinion (even though I really don't know any freezamite, seriously).
I think Toriyama refered to the guides when he said that "it was established" and since most of the fans took those numbes for granted, then they became what the majority assumed was the canonical story.

I don't think most of the guides being unable to understand the manga and Toriyama's idea invalidates it. I mean, it's not as if the manga later contradicted anything regarding that, and I still remember that when in Battle of Gods Bills says that base Goku could never defeat Freezer, most of the fans mocked Toriyama for that statement but I think it's obvious that in his head, what he drew in the manga still stands true.

And very good point your RoF quote, yes, Freezer's statement about starting all out to not be caught off-guard like it happened in Namek could have been a clear reference to the Genkidama and the fact that he was already badly injured when he arrived at 100%.

Now the Super Saiyan form's amplifier -- despite what Toriyama claims, it wouldn't make sense for it to be 10 times greater than base. Since Kaioken was brought up as having a greater threshold than that, we could also cite Oozaru with its in-manga amplifer of 10 times just like this desired amplifier.

It actually makes all the sense, because the Freezer that manages to overpower the KKx20 and the Freezer that fights Goku SSJ are very different.
The Genkidama was meant to kill Freeza and almost did it (Freeza stated that he was badly injured by it). In other words, the 50% Freezer before the Genkidama was much, much stronger than the 50% Freezer after the Genkidama.

Regards!

[DBZ Macky]

snip

I don't want to come off as rude, but isn't this entire discussion more suitable to the general power level thread instead of this one being more dedicated towards Super?

I honestly don't mind Piccolo having improved greatly. Does it seem unfoundedly spontaneous? Kind of. It's because his power was never considered noteworthy since halfway to maybe 2/3rds of the way through the Cell arc if you hold Goku's observations of his power up in any regard post ROSAT. After that scene you have a few implicative narrational choices like Piccolo being picked over the kids and Frost requiring Super Saiyan to be overwhelmed despite having lost much of his stamina in two previous matches during the Champa arc.

It's nothing that seems all too significant but if fill-ins like Shisami, Tagoma, Dyspo, and others can become so strong then why not the famed Child of Katas?

Now the Super Saiyan form's amplifier -- despite what Toriyama claims, it wouldn't make sense for it to be 10 times greater than base. Since Kaioken was brought up as having a greater threshold than that, we could also cite Oozaru with its in-manga amplifer of 10 times just like this desired amplifier. If both the giant were-ape form and the golden superman form were equal to one another past girth then why would the latter be mythologised so much outside of tradition and lack of familiarity of just how strong it is?

Yeah, I can make peace with Piccolo being able to grow incredibly stronger in a short period of time (even if that implies that if Piccolo went in the RoSaT instead of Goten/Trunks, the entire arc might've been a lot shorter) since he's already done that before when he went from being on par with Second Form Freeza on Namek to being able to overpower Android 20 and basically being on par with the Super Saiyans in the span of 3 years with regular training on Earth.

But it still makes the notion of Tenshinhan and Krillin fighting on par with the guys from the other universes even more ridiculous than it already was.

[MechaTrunks]

I don't want to come off as rude, but isn't this entire discussion more suitable to the general power level thread instead of this one being more dedicated towards Super?

You're right, but while it's true that we have spent 2 pages speaking of Namek and Freezer, this debate started while discussing if A17 power up in Super made any sense and if he was above or below Freezer to begin with in Z.
That being said, this is a DBZ debate more than a DBS one so I have no problem in moving the discussion there.

Regards!

[Sadala Elite]

This is the most delusional response I've ever read.

- Toriyama is the main authority of ALL of these guides. He is the one who approves them for publication. This is a confirmed fact. And these guides all say that SSJ1 is 50x. YOU are the one that's in denial. If Toriyama wanted SSJ1 to be only 10x then all of these guides that he approved would say so and not 50x. Its simple logic

If you think that Toriyama wrote those guides you're even more ignorant than I thought, really.
The only thing that we know 100% for sure that Toriyama wrote from his hands, besides the manga, is that interview where HE SAYS that 50x is an exaggeration and that he drew those scenes with a 10x on mind.

This is what Toriyama SAID:

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

It was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold ALREADY IMPLIES that this whas what OTHER PEOPLE UNDERSOOD.
And if the ones claiming Goku got a 50x power up are the GUIDES, it's obvious that Toriyama DIDN'T WROTE THOSE GUIDES.

Are you seriously trying to demonstrate that Toriyama didn't write what he wrote based on your baseless assumption that he wrote the guides?
You have NO PROOF that Toriyama wrote those guides (and more specifically, those sections of the guides), and you are trying to deny something we know 100% he actually said because it was an interview HE MADE? For real?

- The actually story (both anime and manga) say that Freeza was NEVER weakened at any point in Z, that he used his full power against SSJ1 Goku, and that Mecha Freeza > Namek Freeza. There is not a single quote from Toriyama or any guide that says otherwise.

That's a lie, not only Freeza says his power has decreased, but in every single fight in the series when a character is injured he loses strength.
You not understanding those basic Dragon Ball rules is not Toriyama's fault.
And stop using your "100% means he didn't lose strength" fallacy as if I hadn't tried to explain you 20 times that 100% just means "going all out".

- There is not a single quote from Toriyama or any official source that says that Freeza in Z was stronger than ANY of the main Androids. Your headcanon is not fact, its nonsense.

There's not a single quote from Toriyama or any official source saying that Kid bu was stronger than Pilaf but hey, I can understand that by myself.
It seems this is not your case.

- You are forgetting Freeza's durability. Freeza is a character who could survive an exploding planet even after getting cut in half. To assume that he couldnt use his full power because of his injuries goes against the basis of Freeza's character. There's also the simple fact that Freeza himself (as well as Toriyama and every official guide) in the story says he uses his real 100% power and was never nerfed.

Cell also had Freezer's cells and durability but his head got disintegrated by a KameHame Ha. So what?
Freeza wouldn't have survived cut in half if it wasn't because Goku gave him some Ki, he was agonizing after being cut (and how wasn't he even able to fly to escape the planet, if he still was in his buffed-100% form that according to you means he was at full power?).

Freezer's character was never immune to injuries (just very sturdy) as proven by the fact that after being cut he wasn't even able to fly. Why wouldn't he? He didn't lose any strength when injured right?

Can't fault MechaTrunks aka freezamite for arguing for what he does, only the invisible kaio-ken x10 bothers me.

Mostly I blame Toriyama. That interview with the translation we're given says what MechaTrunks says it does, Toriyama drew it as 10x, but it was established(by who?) as 50x, which he thought was too much.

In any case although we have cases, where Toriyama put his foot down and vetoed certain ideas and concepts, he doesn't always do that and will allow for stuff different, than what he intended. His comment on the hair colors of the Saiyans in the Bardock movie makes that clear; his personal thought is that full blooded Saiyans have black hair, but he ok'ed the possibility of the anime having Saiyans with other hair colors(though he would later in the manga establish all full blooded Saiyans to have black hair, so here it was not just a thought he had).

But it can be argued, that although his original vision is one thing, the fact that he has allowed the vast majority of official sources to peddle quite another idea, utterly invalidates the original intent as fact, ensuring the new idea is in fact the case.
As for Freeza losing power, it isn't stated quite as clearly as one would like, but it's the natural conclusion one would draw considering the statements provided by MechaTrunks.
Furthermore in RoF, penned entirely by Toriyama, he has Freeza state, that he will start out in his final form, so he won't get caught off guard like last time he fought Goku, which is an odd statement to make, if it wasn't the case, that he couldn't fight at absolute full power the last time and thus making the whole being caught off guard thing irrelevant.

I feel like RoF is what happens, when both of them are fresh from the start, which results in Freeza being naturally stronger, when both are at absolute full power.

Thank you for your opinion (even though I really don't know any freezamite, seriously).
I think Toriyama refered to the guides when he said that "it was established" and since most of the fans took those numbes for granted, then they became what the majority assumed was the canonical story.

I don't think most of the guides being unable to understand the manga and Toriyama's idea invalidates it. I mean, it's not as if the manga later contradicted anything regarding that, and I still remember that when in Battle of Gods Bills says that base Goku could never defeat Freezer, most of the fans mocked Toriyama for that statement but I think it's obvious that in his head, what he drew in the manga still stands true.

And very good point your RoF quote, yes, Freezer's statement about starting all out to not be caught off-guard like it happened in Namek could have been a clear reference to the Genkidama and the fact that he was already badly injured when he arrived at 100%.

Now the Super Saiyan form's amplifier -- despite what Toriyama claims, it wouldn't make sense for it to be 10 times greater than base. Since Kaioken was brought up as having a greater threshold than that, we could also cite Oozaru with its in-manga amplifer of 10 times just like this desired amplifier.

It actually makes all the sense, because the Freezer that manages to overpower the KKx20 and the Freezer that fights Goku SSJ are very different.
The Genkidama was meant to kill Freeza and almost did it (Freeza stated that he was badly injured by it). In other words, the 50% Freezer before the Genkidama was much, much stronger than the 50% Freezer after the Genkidama.

Regards!

- YOU are the ignorant one if you refuse to acknowledge the fact that Toriyama co-wrote those guides just to protect your headcanon. You are living in denial. And the fact that they still all say that SSJ1 is 50x for years speaks for itself (which means he likely changed his mind after that interview you keep using). And even if he didn't co-wrote them, he still gave them official approval, which makes them valid, NOT your headcanon.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

That's just one of many examples of Toriyama approving and co-making these guides, the same guides that all say SSJ1 is 50x.

- Nobody said that Freeza is immune to injuries (learn how to read). The point about Freeza's race' durability is that they DON'T lose power from injuries. That Freeza did not get any weaker do to the Spirit Bomb or the punches he got from SSJ1 Goku while still using only 50% because if he did then he wouldnt have stated to have used his full power (logic).

- There's not a single quote or feat in the series that says Freeza in Z was stronger than any Androids or that Freeza got weaker do to the Spirit Bomb (its just your headcanon). A challenge you to find a single quote or image in the series that says otherwise.

"That's a lie, not only Freeza says his power has decreased, but in every single fight in the series when a character is injured he loses strength.
You not understanding those basic Dragon Ball rules is not Toriyama's fault."

Show me a quote from the manga or anime that says Freeza got weaker from the Spirit Bomb.

- SSJ1 is repeatingly stated and shown to be stronger than Kaioken. If SSJ1 was only a 10x boost then that wouldn't make any sense because Kaioken can go up to 20x. It would only make sense if SSJ1 was a 50x boost.

- The only time Freeza starts losing power was halfway into the fight with SSJ1 Goku (because Freeza's 100% form has bad stamina, just like how Golden Freeza did in Revival of F.) Never any time before that. And no, Freeza WAS still able to fly after getting cut in half, he's seen flying while trying to blast Goku.

- You Kid Buu vs Pilaf argument completely fails because they were never compared to each other. Freeza on the other hand WAS both directly and indirectly compared to the SSJs and the Androids and is consistely portrayed as weaker than both in Z.

[Sadala Elite]

Can't fault MechaTrunks aka freezamite for arguing for what he does, only the invisible kaio-ken x10 bothers me.

Mostly I blame Toriyama. That interview with the translation we're given says what MechaTrunks says it does, Toriyama drew it as 10x, but it was established(by who?) as 50x, which he thought was too much.

In any case although we have cases, where Toriyama put his foot down and vetoed certain ideas and concepts, he doesn't always do that and will allow for stuff different, than what he intended. His comment on the hair colors of the Saiyans in the Bardock movie makes that clear; his personal thought is that full blooded Saiyans have black hair, but he ok'ed the possibility of the anime having Saiyans with other hair colors(though he would later in the manga establish all full blooded Saiyans to have black hair, so here it was not just a thought he had).

But it can be argued, that although his original vision is one thing, the fact that he has allowed the vast majority of official sources to peddle quite another idea, utterly invalidates the original intent as fact, ensuring the new idea is in fact the case.
As for Freeza losing power, it isn't stated quite as clearly as one would like, but it's the natural conclusion one would draw considering the statements provided by MechaTrunks.
Furthermore in RoF, penned entirely by Toriyama, he has Freeza state, that he will start out in his final form, so he won't get caught off guard like last time he fought Goku, which is an odd statement to make, if it wasn't the case, that he couldn't fight at absolute full power the last time and thus making the whole being caught off guard thing irrelevant.

I feel like RoF is what happens, when both of them are fresh from the start, which results in Freeza being naturally stronger, when both are at absolute full power.

MechaTrunks' arguments make absolutely no sense for all the reasons I've brought up. Its just headcanon and fallacies.

The only time in the Namek arc where Freeza explicitly loses power from before was halfway into the fight against SSJ1 Goku, because Freeza's 100% burns Ki and stamina really fast (just like Golden Freeza in RoF). There's nothing to suggest Freeza got nerfed from the Spirit Bomb, its pure headcanon that ignores the unique features of Freeza's race durability.

And he's never brought any proof of Freeza in Z being stronger than any of the Androids or SSJ1s, or for Mecha Freeza being weaker than Namek Freeza (despite multiple sources and the series itself saying otherwise).

[ZombieVito]

So the latest SDBH episode is out. Nothing really unexpected.

Beerus is stronger than the likes of SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and base Time Patrol Trunks with his sword without even trying. But that was obvious already.

Though Krillin and Piccolo are the only ones to fall to their knees when the Universe Tree starts sucking up energy from the Earth and others planets all over the universes. Gohan, 17, and the Xeno versions of Goku and Vegeta are also present but fine. So Piccolo and Krillin are the weakest ones present, even with all the Saiyans in their base forms.

Well then nothing contradicted then. Piccolo is below the base Saiyans. Was Gohan Ultimate there?

[Hugo Boss]

Well then nothing contradicted then. Piccolo is below the base Saiyans. Was Gohan Ultimate there?

I don’t think this implies Saiyans’ regular forms are stronger than Piccolo. It’s similar to when Rumsshi paralyzed Goku and knocked out the Kaioshins. People assume that was an indication that Goku was stronger than the Kaioshin in his base form, but actually the other Gods of Destruction were affected as much as Goku, who only gets close to them in his god forms, so this kind of thing seems to count the true capability.

[Dragon Wukong]

Saying Super Saiyan is weaker than Kaioken presents a logical plothole in why Goku would never use Kaioken again if he can be literally twice as strong as he is as a Super Saiyan at any given time (and certainly wouldn't take into account how everyone who can sense ki reacts to Goku's newfound power). That being said, saying none of the main androids are stronger than Frieza ALSO posits a logical plothole in how the hell two Super Saiyans can easily decimate Frieza but get their butts kicked in turn by the androids. If that were the case, Trunks would have never needed to go back in time.

The obvious conclusion would be neither of those things are true and Dragon Ball strength discussions suck as whole, being filled with fans who present their arguments as fact when everything is pretty much just speculation.

[Sadala Elite]

Saying Super Saiyan is weaker than Kaioken presents a logical plothole in why Goku would never use Kaioken again if he can be literally twice as strong as he is as a Super Saiyan at any given time (and certainly wouldn't take into account how everyone who can sense ki reacts to Goku's newfound power). That being said, saying none of the main androids are stronger than Frieza ALSO posits a logical plothole in how the hell two Super Saiyans can easily decimate Frieza but get their butts kicked in turn by the androids. If that were the case, Trunks would have never needed to go back in time.

The obvious conclusion would be neither of those things are true and Dragon Ball strength discussions suck as whole, being filled with fans who present their arguments as fact when everything is pretty much just speculation.

Exactly

[ZombieVito]

Well then nothing contradicted then. Piccolo is below the base Saiyans. Was Gohan Ultimate there?

I don’t think this implies Saiyans’ regular forms are stronger than Piccolo. It’s similar to when Rumsshi paralyzed Goku and knocked out the Kaioshins. People assume that was an indication that Goku was stronger than the Kaioshin in his base form, but actually the other Gods of Destruction were affected as much as Goku, who only gets close to them in his god forms, so this kind of thing seems to count the true capability.

I disagree. Kaioshins getting knocked out while base Goku didn't is clear enough.

Anyway I actually don't even take into consideration this for Piccolo. Piccolo is clearly on par with base Goham during the ToP and since the latter is weaker than base Goku and Vegeta then so is Piccolo.

[MechaTrunks]

- YOU are the ignorant one if you refuse to acknowledge the fact that Toriyama co-wrote those guides just to protect your headcanon. You are living in denial. And the fact that they still all say that SSJ1 is 50x for years speaks for itself (which means he likely changed his mind after that interview you keep using). And even if he didn't co-wrote them, he still gave them official approval, which makes them valid, NOT your headcanon.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

That's just one of many examples of Toriyama approving and co-making these guides, the same guides that all say SSJ1 is 50x.

That's an interview to Toriyama INCLUDED IN THE GUIDE, of course, what Toriyama answers in this interview can be considered written by him.
But the sole fact that the Guides include an interview to the author of the series ALREADY PROVES that they weren't written by the author of the series, otherwise TORIYAMA WOULD NOT INTERVIEW HIMSELF!

You've wasted many posts trying to spin Toriyama's words to make him say the opposite of what he said, and now you're trying to spin Time and reality to make Toriyama say that the 50x mulitplier was exaggerated before the 50x multiplier was published anywhere?

And besides, how the hell could Toriyama change his mind about a scene that was already DRAWN? Unless you can prove that he redrew that scene and that it was different in the original run of the manga (which is clearly NOT THE CASE), what you say makes absolutely no sense.

- Nobody said that Freeza is immune to injuries (learn how to read). The point about Freeza's race' durability is that they DON'T lose power from injuries. That Freeza did not get any weaker do to the Spirit Bomb or the punches he got from SSJ1 Goku while still using only 50% because if he did then he wouldnt have stated to have used his full power (logic).

If Freezer don't lose power from injuries, why the hell can't he even fly after he is cut by his own kienzan? It surely was not a fatal injury because once Goku gave him a bit of Ki, he proved to be mor than capable to survive despite being cut.
Why did Goku give Cell a senzu bean to recover if Cell had Freezer's cells and shouldn't lose any strength, and why did Cell act as if he had recovered his strength if he hadn't lost any at that point?
Why does Freezer say that he has lost power if that wasn't true?

- There's not a single quote or feat in the series that says Freeza in Z was stronger than any Androids or that Freeza got weaker do to the Spirit Bomb (its just your headcanon). A challenge you to find a single quote or image in the series that says otherwise.

Chapter 323 from the manga:
Freezer: It would be wise to leave the planet quickly, if I'm stuck in the explosion I'll lose EVEN MORE strength.

So not only Freeza confirms that he can lose strength when injured by huge explosions (helllo Genkidama) but that he has already lost strength.

I can't wait to see how do you try to spin that sentence to make Freeza say that his power is intact. The mental gimnastics will be incredible.

Show me a quote from the manga or anime that says Freeza got weaker from the Spirit Bomb.

Chapter 317 from the manga:
Freezer: Even as hurt as I am I'll still be able to kill you all.

Chapter 323 from the manga:
Freezer: It would be wise to leave the planet quickly, if I'm stuck in the explosion I'll lose EVEN MORE strength.

So if the quote from chapter 317 wasn't clear enough (what sense does it make for him to say this if he hasn't lost his strength?) we have the quote from chapter 323 that further confirms that Freezer has already lost power (and that's 2 chapters before Goku explains to him that his 100% started to get weaker as soon as he reached it).

SSJ1 is repeatingly stated and shown to be stronger than Kaioken. If SSJ1 was only a 10x boost then that wouldn't make any sense because Kaioken can go up to 20x. It would only make sense if SSJ1 was a 50x boost.

False (never in the series it's directly stated that the KKx20 was below the untrained SSJ1, and if you say it was, then copy-paste this statement here).
The point of comparison is Freezer but the SSJ1 only appeared after he was badly injured and you only have to see the mental gimnastics you have to make to leave Freezer's injuries out of the equation when trying to explain it.
Furthermore, it's the author of the series' stance the one you're contradicting, you'll need more than your personal view on a scene to convince me that the author was wrong -and that would be if you didn't contradict the logic of the whole series to make your point, which you do-.

And no, Freeza WAS still able to fly after getting cut in half, he's seen flying while trying to blast Goku.

False again. Freeza was in the ground asking Goku for help, he only becames able to fly and fire that last ki blast after Goku gives him some ki.
You're again contradicting the manga to fit your absolutely unreasonable stance that not only goes against what's drawn, but also agains't the author's own words.

Saying Super Saiyan is weaker than Kaioken presents a logical plothole in why Goku would never use Kaioken again if he can be literally twice as strong as he is as a Super Saiyan at any given time (and certainly wouldn't take into account how everyone who can sense ki reacts to Goku's newfound power).

The KK had the drawback of destroying Goku's body, and there was never a need for it to be used.
When Goku fought against the future androids, even going SSJ already make his illnes go wild so the KK was out of the equation from the begining.
After he recovered from the illnes, he already had decided that he would train the SSJ and improve it (which is what he did in the training in the RoSaT). After the RoSaT training the SSJ became a 30-40x mulitplier for him, so the KK was worse in every single aspect (less strength and much, much more damaging to the body -the SSJ didn't damage it at all, in fact-).

That being said, saying none of the main androids are stronger than Frieza ALSO posits a logical plothole in how the hell two Super Saiyans can easily decimate Frieza but get their butts kicked in turn by the androids. If that were the case, Trunks would have never needed to go back in time.

Goku didn't easily decimate Freeza. He had a close fight with him until Freeza's power depleted as a consequence of his lack of stamina (and that was after Freeza's power was decimated because of the Genkidama).
Mecha Freeza's power was stated to be a fraction of his power in Namek, and his performance against Trunks was comparable to his father while transformed so even Piccolo or Vegeta would have been able to kill him if they tried.

Regards!

[Sora Saiyan]

RE: SSJ multiplier and Freezas power.

Toriyama did really make a mess of that one.. and the weird thing is that came from an interview in the SEG, which is also where the new multipliers for the forms were revealed (with a whole lot of new info). He could've had it changed if he really wanted to at that time, as that was the guide with tons of new information from Toriyama himself. but obviously that didn't happen so I'll stick with the 50x increase. The issue also lies with what Toriyama deemed as "only a 10 fold change from what it was up to that point". Did he forget about the invisible Kaioken, or just factor it into Gokus standard power as he was constantly using that power? Thus he instead pictured SSJ as a 10x increase on top of that? Thats very much in the realms of possibility, and I guess if that was the case a 50x increase on top of that would be absurd. One thing we know for sure is that the mythical SSJ form being weaker than Kk is never implied in the slightest throughout any point in the series, and honestly it seems quite strange to think it was weaker at all.

There is never a moment in the Freeza fight where it's even implied that he's gotten weaker, in fact it's quite the contrary, everything after implies that Freeza, and Goku are stronger than ever before. Freeza can't believe Gokus strength when he first becomes a SSJ. Freeza also can't believe that Goku dodged his beams, he literally said something like "nobody ever dodges that"
The only thing we know from statements and implications is that Freeza didn't get weaker, but instead, as Goku says when he questions Freeza on deciding to use his full power so late, Freezas body can't handle his full power for very long anymore. Freezas reaction after Gokus statement confirms that. So that is pretty much confirming what effect the Genki Dama and such had on Freeza, his ki didn't drop, but his body couldn't handle the strain of his true power for very long.
Goku states upon Freeza powering up to 100% "I finally get to see Freeza at his fullest" Goku would never make such a statement if Freeza was weaker than previous. He also says that he wants to check out the most powerful guy in the universal at full power when Kaio tells him to finish Freeza during his power up. The whole conversation with Kaio wouldn't happen the way it did if Freeza was weaker than previous. Goku straight up says to Freeza that he wants to beat him while he's at his best so Freeza will have no regrets as a warrior. Goku can sense ki, let's never forget that. Goku would never say he's gonna beat Freeza once Freeza is at his best if he was weaker than he was before, in fact when he realised that Freeza was weaker after hitting his peak and burning out his power he just straight up quit the fight. Goku also states that he surpassed the supposedly unsurpassable Freeza. This just isn't in his character to lie about something like that.

There was many moments in this fight for both characters to mention even a slight decrease in his power, but we instead have the ever battle hungry Goku who wanted to beat Freeza at the peak of his powers never mentioning such, and instead saying he was at his best when he was.. well at his best. And Freeza also never implying anything like a decrease in power in the slightest. Goku and Freeza both confirm the effect the Genki dama had on him during an interaction which I mentioned previously. We also have instances of Freeza calling SSJ Gokus power astonishing and such, but I felt it was more important to concentrate on Freeza in this post.

One thing I've gotta say is that I won't respond to headcanon, but only actual evidence as I don't want to get dragged down that slippery slope. There's no need in bringing any headcanon into this debate when we can find a lot of actual proof through the material itself. This fight was dialogue heavy so there's a lot of things to scour through.