Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:49 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:21 am
[...] how can someone say Ultimate is a "fanmade" name.
I should have made more clear that my point is that it doesn't come from the original source. Video games also don't have a consensus about the name. Sometimes I see "potential unlocked" or "potential unleashed". But I see your point is correct about the officiality. Sorry for the "fanmade" terminology.
That sounds more like your headcanon than anything. And I'm not into semantics here. That means absolutely nothing. One is an English term and the other is a Japanese one. "Gattai" is used for Potara and "Fyujion" is used for Metamoru. Like I said, using different words for the same thing doesn't mean anything.
Actually, the context in which Gohan inserts "full power" is weird, because as he fights Goku, he is being told to unleash his power (huh?) and he retorts to Goku to get serious as well. Then, as he approaches Goku he claims he will use his full strength (but wasn't he already using it before?). So yeah, maybe this is my headcanon, but that's the only way I figured to make sense of what happens in that fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:04 pm

Just a few more notes about "Ultimate" (pulling some info from this post I previously wrote, but also some other stuff... someone please double check my Japanese transcriptions)-

As Grimlock states, the form has never actually been named in the series itself, so the ONLY official names are ones that exist in ancillary material.

As I think we all know, it stems from the title page of chapter 497, where the original serialization has splash text that says 究極パワーUPの悟飯を見よ!! (Kyūkyoku Pawā UP no Gohan Miyo... like, "Check out Gohan's ultimate power-up!!"); this is from 1994.

"The Strongest Warrior" (最強の戦士 or Saikyō no Senshi) is from Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" section. This particular section is a bit odd in that it uses a combination of normal transformation names alongside more descriptive ones; for example, Cell arc Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is just "Super Saiyan 2" while 25th tournament Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is "High School Days Super Saiyan 2." It is this same section whose highlight box says "Saikyō no Senshi" alongside Ultimate Gohan. Daizenshuu 2 is from 1995.

Daizenshuu 7's pull-out poster labels him in this form as "Super Son Gohan" doing the usual thing of 超 (chou) with furigana indicating a "suupaa" pronunciation. Daizenshuu 7 is from 1996.

Daizenshuu 10 has the thing with "Ultimate Gohan" (アルティメット悟飯 Arutimetto Gohan) people point to (very bottom left). Daizenshuu 10 is from 1997.

Around this time in history, there's his Super Battle Collection figure, where he's Saikyō-han or in their own English words just "Ultimate Version". I believe this figure is from 1997.

Erren/Kagari also shared this with me, where in movie 13's production he's being labeled with the same 最強 (saikyō) from the figure and Daizenshuu 2. Movie 13 came out in 1995.

He is called "Ultimate Gohan" directly in the first Dragon Ball Z: Sparking! in 2005. This carries forward into the subsequent games; here's a collage from Sparking! METEOR with all Gohan forms.

(We have posts on this very forum going back to 2005, a year after the furthest-back install/archive we have, actively using the term "Ultimate Gohan.")

Just wanna stress the importance of checking the Japanese sources on things. For example, here's Budokai 3's Potara listing where it's like "Elder Kaioshin's Potential Unlock" (老界王神の潜在能力開放 Rō-Kaiōshin no Senzai Nōryoku Kaihō I think?). I think the "Budokai 3" localization was pretty spot-on with "Elder Kai Unlock Ability", right? (Then again, Steve translated that game.) Skimming JP websites yeah it does look like in the Xenoverse games it's a little more generic 潜在能力解放.

EDIT: One more thing I'd throw in the ring on this is that "Ultimate Gohan" is the name of the resulting character, while things like "Elder Kaioshin's Potential Unlock" are the abilities/techniques that GET HIM to that point. Think of something like "Super Vegeta", which is what he calls himself after transforming via Super Saiyan Grade II. Technique brings you to and is not necessarily the same as Descriptive Character Name.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:19 pm

Complainers will complain.
Last edited by Desassina on Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:27 pm

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku’s air punches didn’t even FAZE Moro! And there were many of them. It’s like it barely tickled him, though it did annoy him.

Is anyone still in doubt that Moro is superior to both Jiren and Broly now???
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:25 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:27 pm
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku’s air punches didn’t even FAZE Moro! And there were many of them. It’s like it barely tickled him, though it did annoy him.

Is anyone still in doubt that Moro is superior to both Jiren and Broly now???
I would refrain from drawing conclusions from rough drafts, but it seemed that Moro was a bit annoyed by Goku’s attacks and was took by surprise in some moments. Besides, we don’t know how this version of Goku compares to Jiren and Broli.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:05 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:49 pm
I should have made more clear that my point is that it doesn't come from the original source.
Then I don't see the point here at all. Because the "original source" does not provide a name. It's a nameless form.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:49 pm
Video games also don't have a consensus about the name. Sometimes I see "potential unlocked" or "potential unleashed".
Yes, that is the case because the video games aren't developed by the same developer. So it should be expected a nameless form in the "original source" to receive a lot of names in other places. Regardless of that, all terminologies that appear wherever it is in the Japanese version are still official and cannot, under any circumstances, be compared to things like "Kid Buu" and other English-ONLY terms like you did.

Just out curiosity: what do you have to say about this? It is also a nameless form in the 'original source" and the only thing that provided a name (as far as I know) was Dragon Ball Heroes (without any other name provided so far). Do you consider Super Saiyan Rage to be "fanmade" or "as official as Kid Buu"?




Hey, VegettoEX...

Image

I tried to find VegettoEX's last post about this but I couldn't find it since it was old. Not gonna make the same mistake again, I'm saving this post for further use. Once in a while there's always someone who'll doubt the legitimacy of things, so this will definitely come in handy.
VegettoEX wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:04 pm
Just wanna stress the importance of checking the Japanese sources on things.
And I'm gonna reiterate the importance of not only checking the Japanese sources on things, but trying to stick with it. Accuracy is everything, the less fandom nonsense, the better. We should only use English terms where is appropriate to translate (like Super Saiyajin Dai Ni/San Dankai) and when it's intentional to be in English (like the name of Vegeta's techniques).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:47 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:25 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:27 pm
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku’s air punches didn’t even FAZE Moro! And there were many of them. It’s like it barely tickled him, though it did annoy him.

Is anyone still in doubt that Moro is superior to both Jiren and Broly now???
I would refrain from drawing conclusions from rough drafts, but it seemed that Moro was a bit annoyed by Goku’s attacks and was took by surprise in some moments. Besides, we don’t know how this version of Goku compares to Jiren and Broli.
To be fair, I doubt that scene isn't gonna be in the actual chapter. Likewise, Goku in this arc is explicitly stated to have gotten far stronger in general, with his SSB outperforming his strength in the Tournament of Power (as an SSB). It can be assumed the same is true for his strength in Ultra Instinct.

It certainly seems to be the case now that Moro has surpassed Jiren. This also falls along with his saying that someone on par with SSG Vegeta's caliber would be "insect" to him in his prime. That's what we're seeing in this fight, Moro in his prime power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:02 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:05 pm
Just out curiosity: what do you have to say about this? It is also a nameless form in the 'original source" and the only thing that provided a name (as far as I know) was Dragon Ball Heroes (without any other name provided so far). Do you consider Super Saiyan Rage to be "fanmade" or "as official as Kid Buu"?
I’m okay with it and compliment your effort to clear things up. I just don’t feel that much importance from names that don’t come from the original work, with all due respect. Actually, I’m more interested in the second part of my previous post. :)
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:47 pm
It certainly seems to be the case now that Moro has surpassed Jiren.
I think it’s a fairly good assumption, but I won’t say I’m sure of it. When Goku fought Jiren he could barely sustain Ultra Instinct, so perhaps he worked more on this aspect instead of increasing its powerlevel.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:06 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:27 pm
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku’s air punches didn’t even FAZE Moro! And there were many of them. It’s like it barely tickled him, though it did annoy him.

Is anyone still in doubt that Moro is superior to both Jiren and Broly now???
Do we know how manga UI stacks up in comparison to Broly/Beerus?

Anime statements had ToP Omen/UI being >= Beerus. If we go by that then yes Moro is stronger

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:06 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:06 am
Do we know how manga UI stacks up in comparison to Broly/Beerus?

Anime statements had ToP Omen/UI being >= Beerus. If we go by that then yes Moro is stronger
In the anime and in the manga, Jiren is stronger than Goku using the initial stage of Ultra Instinct. By the rough drafts, Goku apparently can handle Moro in that stage. So, that raises some questions. Is Moro still hiding strength? Is this version of Goku stronger than the one that fought Jiren? Those question might be answered in the following chapters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:53 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:06 am
Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:06 am
Do we know how manga UI stacks up in comparison to Broly/Beerus?

Anime statements had ToP Omen/UI being >= Beerus. If we go by that then yes Moro is stronger
In the anime and in the manga, Jiren is stronger than Goku using the initial stage of Ultra Instinct. By the rough drafts, Goku apparently can handle Moro in that stage. So, that raises some questions. Is Moro still hiding strength? Is this version of Goku stronger than the one that fought Jiren? Those question might be answered in the following chapters.
Omen never really fights Jiren in the manga. It gets the slip on him then wears out before Goku can use it the first time, then Goku uses the form again to dodge several of Jiren's attacks, never really hitting him until he goes Ultra Instinct. That being said, how much trouble Jiren and Moro had with it seem somewhat comparable, but Moro's the only one who we see take a hit, and it appears to be ineffective.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:56 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:53 pm
Omen never really fights Jiren in the manga.
I think you meant “fight back”, which he only does in the definitive stage of Ultra Instinct. But that happened after Jiren released his full strength. It’s (kinda) implied Jiren would be able to do something if Goku didn’t go the full process, no? Just to be consistent with what happens in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:31 pm

So looking back at the ToP, can we safely say that Gohan and Kefla were not SSB level?

Manga Kefla was/is so weird. Reading the dialogue makes it seem like Kefla isn't stronger than Kale. In terms of fusions, she's the biggest outlier. Even Kibito Kai was stronger than Shin.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:43 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:31 pm
So looking back at the ToP, can we safely say that Gohan and Kefla were not SSB level?

Manga Kefla was/is so weird. Reading the dialogue makes it seem like Kefla isn't stronger than Kale. In terms of fusions, she's the biggest outlier. Even Kibito Kai was stronger than Shin.
I can't really see how else to interpret Kefla and Gohan as being anything BUT SSB level. Kale at this point had very nearly knocked out both SSB Vegeta and Dyspo, tossed around Golden Frieza, and knocked back SSB Goku. Gohan fighting evenly with Kefla is very clearly supposed to indicate he's at that level at least now, with Krillin even commenting on the possibility that Gohan could end up stronger than Goku if he just trained.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:13 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:31 pm
So looking back at the ToP, can we safely say that Gohan and Kefla were not SSB level?

Manga Kefla was/is so weird. Reading the dialogue makes it seem like Kefla isn't stronger than Kale. In terms of fusions, she's the biggest outlier. Even Kibito Kai was stronger than Shin.
I'd say they are within that realm of power. Probably as strong as earlier stages of SSB.

In the anime, we see both Gohan & 17 team up on Toppo, they can't seem to damage him. They did however take shots from Toppo & 17 even managed to hold a beam clash with him although Toppo was getting the upper hand... They can at least stall/survive against someone that strong.

Manga Kefla & Gohan are prob like 80% - 90% of SSB Goku Top. I'm basing this off the Kale Vs Frieza fight. Kefla retains Kales full power without the rage & better control.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:02 pm

I agree with Dragon Wukong that in the manga Gohan and Kafla were as strong as SSBlue Goku.

In the anime, Gohan was as strong as SSBlue Goku before he trained with Whis in the gravity chamber and Kafla rivaled the first stage of Ultra Instinct Goku.

If you ask me what I think it makes more sense, I’d say both have problems, but the anime builded it up Gohan a little better, while the manga made a good job by taxing Kale and making their fusion a union of the best of both worlds.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:46 pm

I’ve just read the whole chapter, and I must say, Moro didn’t look that impressive. At all...! He was very clearly struggling and on the losing end to Ultra Instinct “OMEN” Goku throughout the far end majority of the fight. And only gained the upper hand near the end after he powered up to (what I suppose) is his full power. This doesn’t mean he won’t get stronger in the future though. He might pull another Namek Moro, and eat the whole planet with everyone on it and become vastly more powerful after that. But in today’s manga chapter, he was very clearly struggling with and on the losing end to UI Omen Goku throughout the majority of the fight.

I really believed Moro would totally own UIO Goku... This isn’t even full UI yet guys, lets not forget that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:25 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:46 pm
I’ve just read the whole chapter, and I must say, Moro didn’t look that impressive. At all...! He was very clearly struggling and on the losing end to Ultra Instinct “OMEN” Goku throughout the far end majority of the fight. And only gained the upper hand near the end after he powered up to (what I suppose) is his full power. This doesn’t mean he won’t get stronger in the future though. He might pull another Namek Moro, and eat the whole planet with everyone on it and become vastly more powerful after that. But in today’s manga chapter, he was very clearly struggling with and on the losing end to UI Omen Goku throughout the majority of the fight.

I really believed Moro would totally own UIO Goku... This isn’t even full UI yet guys, lets not forget that.
To be fair, Moro wasn’t taking the fight very seriously and he’s also fighting a UI Omen Goku who is definitely stronger than the UI Omen Goku from the tournament of power due to Goku’s increases in power after the tournament of power and the events of Broly and getting beaten by Moro twice before AND training with Merus for 6 months in the chamber. We see Moro power up and it’s even said in the translations that Moro’s power surpasses that of the Gods. So I actually believe he looks really impressive, being able to fight against a more powerful UI omen Goku while holding back is no small feat. This is all after he demonstrated his power through the use of Soganbo as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:32 pm

Since we're talking about Moro can I just ask what happened to the ancient adversarial menace who was propped up as this connoisseur of arcane magic? Looking over recent depictions, it's like he's gone from someone trying to make an impression of being magically oriented to just another muscular juggernaut who happens to use a little bit of what could otherwise pass as energy projectiles. Was the magic only a means to an end for him to acquire strength comparable to the heroes so we can have semi-traditional fisticuffs?

I've said this before but Babidi has been more of a rigourist for magic than Moro, in my opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:53 pm

Jmass97 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:25 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:46 pm
I’ve just read the whole chapter, and I must say, Moro didn’t look that impressive. At all...! He was very clearly struggling and on the losing end to Ultra Instinct “OMEN” Goku throughout the far end majority of the fight. And only gained the upper hand near the end after he powered up to (what I suppose) is his full power. This doesn’t mean he won’t get stronger in the future though. He might pull another Namek Moro, and eat the whole planet with everyone on it and become vastly more powerful after that. But in today’s manga chapter, he was very clearly struggling with and on the losing end to UI Omen Goku throughout the majority of the fight.

I really believed Moro would totally own UIO Goku... This isn’t even full UI yet guys, lets not forget that.
To be fair, Moro wasn’t taking the fight very seriously and he’s also fighting a UI Omen Goku who is definitely stronger than the UI Omen Goku from the tournament of power due to Goku’s increases in power after the tournament of power and the events of Broly and getting beaten by Moro twice before AND training with Merus for 6 months in the chamber. We see Moro power up and it’s even said in the translations that Moro’s power surpasses that of the Gods. So I actually believe he looks really impressive, being able to fight against a more powerful UI omen Goku while holding back is no small feat. This is all after he demonstrated his power through the use of Soganbo as well.
Oh you are absolutely right that this UI Omen Goku is VASTLY superior to the one from the ToP. For all the examples you’ve mentioned. But it’s still not the state’s full power, and Moro is already losing nearly. This UI Omen Goku is definitely far superior to the MUI (silver haired version) from the ToP, no doubt about that. But still, it’s a weaker, incomplete, imperfect state that is already giving Moro trouble. That’s the point I’m trying to make.
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