Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2131
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat May 30, 2020 8:16 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:50 pm
Quick question, when was stated in the manga that SSB is 10x SSG?

I always thought it happened during the Champa tournament, but I don't remember reading anything like that.
It's an extrapolation based on how SSG was superior to SSB after the latter's power was reduced below 10%.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4407
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 31, 2020 3:51 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:45 pm
Do you mind explaining why you think so?
Because that's literally what fusion is.

Vegetto's body isn't a vessel for Goku and Vegeta's minds to inhabit. He's a completely separate being born into the world when they fuse.

If what you said was right then when Elder Kaioshin died he should have defused on the spot but didn't. The fusion only has 1 soul.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun May 31, 2020 5:04 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:16 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:50 pm
Quick question, when was stated in the manga that SSB is 10x SSG?

I always thought it happened during the Champa tournament, but I don't remember reading anything like that.
It's an extrapolation based on how SSG was superior to SSB after the latter's power was reduced below 10%.
For all that it's worth, I'm more of a fan of Blue=5×God with that approach. Especially seeing how 2 equal warriors (Goku and Vegeta) against the same enemy (Hit) performed differently. God Goku def did more than 10% Blue Vegeta, which relates to full power God ≈ 20%Blue

But the Blue that equals 5 times God is the Full Potential of the form (rare to see in the Manga tbh), or Perfected Blue. Which is why the Perfected Blue multiplier can be 10 or 2 times Blue, depending on the percentage of power used while in the form.

That's how I view this whole thing.
P O W E R

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3426
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun May 31, 2020 6:54 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 3:51 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:45 pm
Do you mind explaining why you think so?
Because that's literally what fusion is.

Vegetto's body isn't a vessel for Goku and Vegeta's minds to inhabit. He's a completely separate being born into the world when they fuse.

If what you said was right then when Elder Kaioshin died he should have defused on the spot but didn't. The fusion only has 1 soul.
That’s curious, because each half of Zamas reacted differently from large damage taken.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1903
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun May 31, 2020 9:09 am

Fused Zamasu only had Zamasu's soul, as evidenced by the fact that Infinite Zamasu (i.e. the manifestation of his soul) appeared as the normal, immortal Zamasu. No sign of Black at all.

Image
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4407
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 31, 2020 1:33 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:09 am
Fused Zamasu only had Zamasu's soul, as evidenced by the fact that Infinite Zamasu (i.e. the manifestation of his soul) appeared as the normal, immortal Zamasu. No sign of Black at all.

Image
Because Goku Black's soul is Zamasus.

Why would it reflect Black at all?

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1903
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun May 31, 2020 2:18 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:33 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:09 am
Fused Zamasu only had Zamasu's soul, as evidenced by the fact that Infinite Zamasu (i.e. the manifestation of his soul) appeared as the normal, immortal Zamasu. No sign of Black at all.

Image
Because Goku Black's soul is Zamasus.

Why would it reflect Black at all?
My point was meant to show that Fused Zamasu did not have his own unique soul, because otherwise Infinite Zamasu would have the saiyan hair. This was in reference to when you said that, if Vegito was anything to go by, the fused being has their own soul and is not just a vessel for one of the fusee's soul to inhabit.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4407
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 31, 2020 6:31 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:18 pm
My point was meant to show that Fused Zamasu did not have his own unique soul, because otherwise Infinite Zamasu would have the saiyan hair. This was in reference to when you said that, if Vegito was anything to go by, the fused being has their own soul and is not just a vessel for one of the fusee's soul to inhabit.
But Black's soul shouldn't resemble Goku at all. It should resemble regular Zamasu since he's him.

It's like saying Ginyu's soul changed to resemble Tagoma when he switched bodies with him. It doesn't make sense at all.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1454
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun May 31, 2020 7:32 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:54 pm
DBZ Macky wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:35 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:45 pm
These are bad arguments. The fact that Base Gogeta could causally parry and defend against SSJ1 Broly at all is proof that he was stronger than normal SSB Goku/Vegeta.
Except that argument is worse than the one I made, there is no "proof".
Gogeta isn't the only one who parried Broly's Ki attacks, he deflected like two before transforming, while SSB Goku deflects a whole bunch of them.

I will repeat this again "Gogeta mostly dodged Broly's attacks while SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta traded blows with Broly", but this time, I will also provide visual aid.

Goku and Vegeta hold their own against Broly before distracting him with Freeza and escaping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMu3WCt662o
Time stamp - 1:28

Base Gogeta literally doing less than what Goku and Vegeta could do, and transforming into Super Saiyan to outclass Broly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LehvY__pLYY
Time stamp - 1:01

Perhaps it's because I'm the only one who re-watches the movie every couple of weeks like an insane person, but it really seems like I'm in the minority here who doesn't believe Base Gogeta > the Super Saiyan Blues.

I honestly feel that what everyone actually remembers is Gogeta acting overly cocky and it has just been echoed so much around the community that it has created a sort of Mandela effect. There is not a single shred of evidence or implication that Base Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta yet everyone parrots it because, well, everyone else does.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:45 pm
And the Vegito argument doesn't work. In the anime, that Merged Zamasu that Vegito fought wasn't the same strength as the one SSB Goku/Vegeta & Trunks did (this was after M.Zamasu got massively stronger from hitting himself with the Lightning of Absolution and getting the purple arm, which cause Goku and Vegeta to decide to fuse at all). And the manga, M.Zamasu himself acknowledged Base Vegito as stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, saying to himself that he might actually have a challenge now.
I don't own the Manga in any official capacity, so this Youtube video is the best source I have, and clearly Zamasu calls Vegetto trash rather than "acknowledging him as stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta" or treating him like a challenge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYShBO6Jofs
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:45 pm
Fusion is officially a AxB multiplier of both partners power leading to the base fusion, hence why Base Kefla > SSJ2 Caulifla & Mastered Berzerk Kale, why Buu arc Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku & Majin Vegeta, etc.
I don't disagree with the base Fusions being above Super Saiyan 2 or 3, even the AxB multiplier can work, but that doesn't mean that Base Fusions should just be stronger than the fusees strongest forms. Otherwise, Ultra Instinct and any other future forms are obsolete and they should've just changed Dragon Ball Super to Dragon Ball Fusions: The Anime.
- The fact that Base Gogeta could so effortlessly dodge and parry SSJ1 Broly attacks at all while being still cocky and in control of the situation is obvious proof that he was stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta (who were basically blood lusted, getting slapped around and forced to retreat instead of using their higher forms). Only with pure headcanon would someone argue that SSB Goku/Vegeta were stronger than Base Gogeta despite having a worse performance.

- The fact that Base Vegito could so effortlessly destroy half of M.Zamasu's body (a feat that Vegeta needed a SSB Gamma attack to do) alone points to Base Vegito > SSB Goku/Vegeta.

- Base Fusions are only stronger than their fusees natural forms. This doesn't apply to things like UI and Kaioken.
But this is how Gogeta is, he is cocky. Which does not mean that he is stronger than SSB Goku / Vegeta, he clearly performed worse than the two Saiyans, who not only dodged Ki Blasts, but attacks and Broly's rampage.

SSB Goku (having activated Blue more than once, that is, using less than 10% of his power and after using Mafuba) also managed to open a hole in Zamasu's body with a Kamehameha.

And what would be "natural forms"? Does this include God forms, which are not obtained in a conventional way?

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:29 am

You guys think that the long term plan will have Broly remain at FPSS, or will they try to milk it by him using FPSS2 and FPSS3. If so, won't that affect the power scale a lot?

In my previous headcanon, SS3 Broly would be above Blue fusion by a bit, but with my new headcanon,FPSS2 Broly is already up there.

Blue/Xeno SS4 Kaio Ken fusions are a thing and probably above MUI etc, but since they are not Canon, are we ready to speak about above MUI tier threats?

I still don't see Moro being up there btw.

So how will Broly affect all this if he gets new forms (assuming that his Full Power variants become his default and function like the normal forms, cause we may get blonde-haired versions instead, which would drastically change this mindset I presented) ?
P O W E R

User avatar
Triggered Vegeta
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:44 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:07 am

Imo Broly was just slightly weaker than Gogeta. Survived all of his attacks, had he known how to actually fight... That fight wouldn't have been so one sided.

As far as him getting a SS2 & SS3 variant of FPSS, I believe they would give a far greater increase than the vanilla variants of those forms similar to Kefla.

If he could activate those forms & control them he'd be way above anyone before that except the angels since we have no clue how far above a G.O.D they are.

Btw Kefla still had the green hair from kale. Imo I believe that was her controlled Berserk state. The one Kale used previously... She's able to stack SS2 power on top of that? Maybe that's why Goku had such a hard time? Cuz it wasn't just Vanilla SS & SS2 but enhanced variants.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3426
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:21 am

I don’t think Broli has stronger forms. He will probably work on mastering his current one, if Goku can help him with that.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:09 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:29 am
You guys think that the long term plan will have Broly remain at FPSS, or will they try to milk it by him using FPSS2 and FPSS3. If so, won't that affect the power scale a lot?

In my previous headcanon, SS3 Broly would be above Blue fusion by a bit, but with my new headcanon,FPSS2 Broly is already up there.

Blue/Xeno SS4 Kaio Ken fusions are a thing and probably above MUI etc, but since they are not Canon, are we ready to speak about above MUI tier threats?

I still don't see Moro being up there btw.

So how will Broly affect all this if he gets new forms (assuming that his Full Power variants become his default and function like the normal forms, cause we may get blonde-haired versions instead, which would drastically change this mindset I presented) ?
I think he won't access that form easily if he ever shows up again(underline the IF part). Considering his zenkai and some training he might have been doing, when he see him again his Ikari form might even be way above SSB, and his SS form(who knows if he can now unlock it at will) might be what they need to win whoever they are fighting.
According to Toriyama, the SS2 and SS3 forms are all part of the SS transformation or something like that, so Broly might get a free pass to do whatever he likes as FPSS.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:48 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:07 am
Imo Broly was just slightly weaker than Gogeta. Survived all of his attacks, had he known how to actually fight... That fight wouldn't have been so one sided.

As far as him getting a SS2 & SS3 variant of FPSS, I believe they would give a far greater increase than the vanilla variants of those forms similar to Kefla.

If he could activate those forms & control them he'd be way above anyone before that except the angels since we have no clue how far above a G.O.D they are.

Btw Kefla still had the green hair from kale. Imo I believe that was her controlled Berserk state. The one Kale used previously... She's able to stack SS2 power on top of that? Maybe that's why Goku had such a hard time? Cuz it wasn't just Vanilla SS & SS2 but enhanced variants.
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:09 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:29 am
You guys think that the long term plan will have Broly remain at FPSS, or will they try to milk it by him using FPSS2 and FPSS3. If so, won't that affect the power scale a lot?

In my previous headcanon, SS3 Broly would be above Blue fusion by a bit, but with my new headcanon,FPSS2 Broly is already up there.

Blue/Xeno SS4 Kaio Ken fusions are a thing and probably above MUI etc, but since they are not Canon, are we ready to speak about above MUI tier threats?

I still don't see Moro being up there btw.

So how will Broly affect all this if he gets new forms (assuming that his Full Power variants become his default and function like the normal forms, cause we may get blonde-haired versions instead, which would drastically change this mindset I presented) ?
I think he won't access that form easily if he ever shows up again(underline the IF part). Considering his zenkai and some training he might have been doing, when he see him again his Ikari form might even be way above SSB, and his SS form(who knows if he can now unlock it at will) might be what they need to win whoever they are fighting.
According to Toriyama, the SS2 and SS3 forms are all part of the SS transformation or something like that, so Broly might get a free pass to do whatever he likes as FPSS.
So all in all, Broly's FPSS may as well function as a form superior to his vanilla SS3? As in, he already has this ultimate form, but never went through every single step in between (SS and FP SS) to get it.
P O W E R

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:36 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:21 am
I don’t think Broli has stronger forms. He will probably work on mastering his current one, if Goku can help him with that.
Let's hope that he doesn't. If Broly master's that form like Kale did then his character is worthless after that point.

He'll be destined to become another secondary protagonist whose only use will be to show how strong newer antagonists are.

Basically a Gohan 2.0

Kataphrut
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1492
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:31 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:36 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:21 am
I don’t think Broli has stronger forms. He will probably work on mastering his current one, if Goku can help him with that.
Let's hope that he doesn't. If Broly master's that form like Kale did then his character is worthless after that point.

He'll be destined to become another secondary protagonist whose only use will be to show how strong newer antagonists are.

Basically a Gohan 2.0
You say that like it won't happen anyway.

This is the funny thing about the execs pushing Toriyama to make a canon Broly that they can sell. Because what's going to happen to him now that he has? He'll either never be seen again, or he will, and will immediately get surpassed by the next big bad.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:35 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:31 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:36 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:21 am
I don’t think Broli has stronger forms. He will probably work on mastering his current one, if Goku can help him with that.
Let's hope that he doesn't. If Broly master's that form like Kale did then his character is worthless after that point.

He'll be destined to become another secondary protagonist whose only use will be to show how strong newer antagonists are.

Basically a Gohan 2.0
You say that like it won't happen anyway.

This is the funny thing about the execs pushing Toriyama to make a canon Broly that they can sell. Because what's going to happen to him now that he has? He'll either never be seen again, or he will, and will immediately get surpassed by the next big bad.
Low-key already happening in the Manga with Moro, although we still have to see some stuff.

I digress though.
P O W E R

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3426
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:24 am

I don’t see Broli being paired up with Goku and Vegeta in terms of protagonism. More like Hit or Jiren level of importance. They might appear once in a while.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:24 am
I don’t see Broli being paired up with Goku and Vegeta in terms of protagonism. More like Hit or Jiren level of importance. They might appear once in a while.
Yep. Eventually, like Jiren and Hit, Goku will leave Broly behind too.
That's just the way DB goes.

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:10 pm

Even Jiren was treated as nothing more than fodder in Super Dragon Ball Heroes.

Dragon Ball has a terrible knack for this.

Post Reply