Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Xeno Goku Black
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:41 pm

He's ahead because of his abilities, he proved superior to him in the fights with Moro. He isn't more powerful than him though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:01 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:41 pm
He's ahead because of his abilities, he proved superior to him in the fights with Moro. He isn't more powerful than him though.
The main technique that Vegeta learned in Yardrat would not work in Goku, so the only way for Vegeta to be superior to Goku is in terms of power. Goku's speech about him needing to overcome Vegeta is also very direct, he is not talking about techniques or anything like that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:08 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:01 pm
The main technique that Vegeta learned in Yardrat would not work in Goku, so the only way for Vegeta to be superior to Goku is in terms of power. Goku's speech about him needing to overcome Vegeta is also very direct, he is not talking about techniques or anything like that.
It doesn't have to work on Goku. Vegeta achieved what Goku did not, he "beat" Moro where Goku failed, he surpassed him. He overwhelmed an enemy that overwhelmed Goku in return. As Piccolo said he one upped him.

But in terms of sheer power levels, Vegeta is not as strong as Goku. Vegeta was said to have no effect on Moro at first before he took his energy, Moro said he couldn't contend with him.

Whereas in the last chapter Goku did contend with Moro, overpowered him at times and hurt him but his power was unstable, he topped out and his speed went and he lost.

If that Goku could maintain his power and fought current Vegeta he'd win.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:26 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:08 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:01 pm
The main technique that Vegeta learned in Yardrat would not work in Goku, so the only way for Vegeta to be superior to Goku is in terms of power. Goku's speech about him needing to overcome Vegeta is also very direct, he is not talking about techniques or anything like that.
It doesn't have to work on Goku. Vegeta achieved what Goku did not, he "beat" Moro where Goku failed, he surpassed him. He overwhelmed an enemy that overwhelmed Goku in return. As Piccolo said he one upped him.

But in terms of sheer power levels, Vegeta is not as strong as Goku. Vegeta was said to have no effect on Moro at first before he took his energy, Moro said he couldn't contend with him.

Whereas in the last chapter Goku did contend with Moro, overpowered him at times and hurt him but his power was unstable, he topped out and his speed went and he lost.

If that Goku could maintain his power and fought current Vegeta he'd win.
Piccolo's speech about Vegeta performing better than Goku is not related to power, in fact, but that's not the point.

Goku said he would have to overcome Vegeta AGAIN, and said '' just you wait ''. He put himself in a lower position. How would he have to overcome Vegeta, supposedly already having more power? Moro was about to be defeated, there was nothing he had to overcome if he was talking about performance and if he was already stronger. You are talking as if the meaning of Goku's speech was "Vegeta was fine this time, but next time I will do better", when in reality he straight up says he needs to overcome Vegeta

Moro: ''If this is truly the extent of your power ... then I will not fall to you''. He was stronger than Goku, he says that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:42 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:26 pm
Goku said he would have to overcome Vegeta AGAIN, and said '' just you wait ''. He put himself in a lower position. How would he have to overcome Vegeta, supposedly already having more power? Moro was about to be defeated, there was nothing he had to overcome if he was talking about performance and if he was already stronger. You are talking as if the meaning of Goku's speech was "Vegeta was fine this time, but next time I will do better", when in reality he straight up says he needs to overcome Vegeta
He does have to overcome Vegeta and is in a lower position than him. Vegeta has mastered a new highly powerful technique. Goku can't even keep his power stable for more than a minute or so.

Goku is inferior to the person that is inferior to Vegeta. It doesn't always have to be about power level.
Moro: ''If this is truly the extent of your power ... then I will not fall to you''. He was stronger than Goku, he says that.
Yeah he is stronger than him but against Vegeta, they said that his attack had "barely any effect", he just made him skid back a little. He clearly didn't have the power that Goku had if he can smack him upside the rocks and make him bleed. He was still knocking him around a lot.

Moro may have said he wouldn't fall to Goku but he said Vegeta couldn't contend with him and again Goku could and did so for an entire chapter where he overpowered him in that aura clash off. Then Goku also powered up again after that comment from Moro.

Vegeta is weaker, he just took energy from him to make Moro weaker than himself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:45 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:42 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:26 pm
Goku said he would have to overcome Vegeta AGAIN, and said '' just you wait ''. He put himself in a lower position. How would he have to overcome Vegeta, supposedly already having more power? Moro was about to be defeated, there was nothing he had to overcome if he was talking about performance and if he was already stronger. You are talking as if the meaning of Goku's speech was "Vegeta was fine this time, but next time I will do better", when in reality he straight up says he needs to overcome Vegeta
He does have to overcome Vegeta and is in a lower position than him. Vegeta has mastered a new highly powerful technique. Goku can't even keep his power stable for more than a minute or so.

Goku is inferior to the person that is inferior to Vegeta. It doesn't always have to be about power level.
Vegeta mastering a new technique doesn't put him above Goku because that technique works for specific beings like Moro. He learning something Goku didn't get (when in fact Goku didn't even have time to learn anything besides IT) also doesn't put him above Goku

After Goku said he would need to overcome Vegeta, Jaco replies "so you intend to train even more without new enemies?", Showing that Goku's speech implied that he would need to train in order to overcome Vegeta. That is, it was not about performance or techniques, but about power

All of this reinforces what Moro said about Vegeta being the best meal. It is implied more than once that he surpassed Goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:56 pm

I think you're just taking what was said as too literal as opposed to a reflection of what was currently happening.

It was made very clear that one was stronger than the other with Goku being able to kick Moro around and Vegeta being unable to harm him whatsoever.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:19 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:56 pm
I think you're just taking what was said as too literal as opposed to a reflection of what was currently happening.

It was made very clear that one was stronger than the other with Goku being able to kick Moro around and Vegeta being unable to harm him whatsoever.
I am taking into account what is straight up said (more than once) in the most recent chapter, which is what the narrative wants to convey, regardless of the performance of the two (in which we had Moro hiding his power and admitting that there was being unnecessarily cautious with Goku, in addition to having Goku take advantage of the UI speed).

I'm not taking the dialogs literally, in-universe Jaco himself understands the line '' I will surpass Vegeta again '' as '' do you want to continue training?''. That is, Goku needs to get stronger in order to surpass Vegeta

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:43 pm

It was very clear. Vegeta did get stronger, but he never went to Moro and Goku's weight level, but instead took Moro down to his level and below.

Goku was dealing damage to Moro. Vegeta initially was dealing none, until Moro began to lose power.

What Jaco said does not matter in the slightest in light of what was actually shown.

If dialogue was to be taken that seriously, well, Piccolo said that Vegeta was not one to misread the power of his enemies... And we know that's BS for the entirety of DBZ and even some portions of Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:21 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:19 pm
I am taking into account what is straight up said
So am I, where things couldn't be any more clear cut. If Vegeta is unable to harm Moro and can not contend with him and Goku can harm Moro and contend with him then it is Goku that is the stronger.

You're referring to things that can be interpreted in different ways whereas what I mention is very clear.
Thani wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:43 pm
It was very clear. Vegeta did get stronger, but he never went to Moro and Goku's weight level, but instead took Moro down to his level and below.

Goku was dealing damage to Moro. Vegeta initially was dealing none, until Moro began to lose power.

What Jaco said does not matter in the slightest in light of what was actually shown.
Exactly, Vegeta likely grew stronger enough that he's likely within Ultra Instinct Signs level but he was shown to be inferior physically. He just weakened his opponent is all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:50 am

Imagine if Goku or Vegeta say Moro73 is the strongest they've faced? I got my popcorn ready :)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:18 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:50 am
Imagine if Goku or Vegeta say Moro73 is the strongest they've faced? I got my popcorn ready :)
Lmao Jiren/GoD comparison incoming? 🤡🤡🤡
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:33 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:18 am
Nevaeh wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:50 am
Imagine if Goku or Vegeta say Moro73 is the strongest they've faced? I got my popcorn ready :)
Lmao Jiren/GoD comparison incoming? 🤡🤡🤡
And here it is! Haha! I honestly predict he will be GoD level. Probably, a mid-tier GoD. But, I doubt he is stronger than UI Beerus or MUI Goku. But, he has hax abilities that gives him the edge.

He can absorb energy from almost anyone and anything. That we know of. Besides, Buu and the androids. That and his magical abilities. Made him pretty op. But, now, he has unlimited energy/stamina and can copy any ones skills and abilities.

He is a deadly foe. I’d probably have him at Blue Gogeta level from the Broly arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:38 am

Berserker1921 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:33 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:18 am
Nevaeh wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:50 am
Imagine if Goku or Vegeta say Moro73 is the strongest they've faced? I got my popcorn ready :)
Lmao Jiren/GoD comparison incoming? 🤡🤡🤡
And here it is! Haha! I honestly predict he will be GoD level. Probably, a mid-tier GoD. But, I doubt he is stronger than UI Beerus or MUI Goku. But, he has hax abilities that gives him the edge.

He can absorb energy from almost anyone and anything. That we know of. Besides, Buu and the androids. That and his magical abilities. Made him pretty op. But, now, he has unlimited energy/stamina and can copy any ones skills and abilities.

He is a deadly foe. I’d probably have him at Blue Gogeta level from the Broly arc.
Def can't disagree. Prime Moro ≈ 7-Moro-3 and I personally gauge him as fringe Above GoD tier. Ofc there is the implication that in the Manga GoDs can actually reach Blue fusion/MUI/Jiren levels, but I would say that Moro is up there.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:06 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:38 am
Berserker1921 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:33 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:18 am


Lmao Jiren/GoD comparison incoming? 🤡🤡🤡
And here it is! Haha! I honestly predict he will be GoD level. Probably, a mid-tier GoD. But, I doubt he is stronger than UI Beerus or MUI Goku. But, he has hax abilities that gives him the edge.

He can absorb energy from almost anyone and anything. That we know of. Besides, Buu and the androids. That and his magical abilities. Made him pretty op. But, now, he has unlimited energy/stamina and can copy any ones skills and abilities.

He is a deadly foe. I’d probably have him at Blue Gogeta level from the Broly arc.
Def can't disagree. Prime Moro ≈ 7-Moro-3 and I personally gauge him as fringe Above GoD tier. Ofc there is the implication that in the Manga GoDs can actually reach Blue fusion/MUI/Jiren levels, but I would say that Moro is up there.
I doubt he is stronger than MUI Goku, UI Beerus, and LB Jiren. But, if he is smart. Which he is. Moro can probably beat all
of them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FiReFTW » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:19 am

How can you guys argue that UI sign goku is stronger than Vegeta, or that Vegeta is stronger than UI sign goku, they didn't fight so its impossible to tell.

And its very hard to judge from the manga.

UI sign goku did start very strong against Moro and landed several punches, but Moro was toying and not fighting nearly at his full power.
Then when Moro faught at full power he obliterated Goku in just a few shots.
You could argue UI sign goku was losing power (which is a bit odd, I think he was losing stamina to keep up his UI sign and not power imo) but even if he would be losing power which I doubt I think it would be hard to judge because at the start Moro was not nearly fighting at full power.
And he even commented that Goku has no chance to beat him with such a power.

Now Vegeta started to fight Moro and he landed some punches but didn't have much of an effect yet Moro is now fighting at full power and taking it seriously unlike against Goku at start, and Moro also landed some shots on Vegeta yet they had little effect on Vegeta while they had a massive effect on Goku (one could argue Goku was spent a bit by then).
But Vegeta also started draining Moro of his energy now, yet he didn't drain much before evading his shots and striking a massive backhand punch already to a full powered Moro.

So in my opinion there is many things that we have seen from these chapters that make it very unclear and extremely difficult to say if Vegeta or UI sign goku is stronger physically, unless we actually had them both fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:24 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:18 am
Nevaeh wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:50 am
Imagine if Goku or Vegeta say Moro73 is the strongest they've faced? I got my popcorn ready :)
Lmao Jiren/GoD comparison incoming? 🤡🤡🤡
A statement like that affects Broly and a certain anorexic cat too. It's going to be fun :)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:44 pm

I just would like to know how you interpret this piece of dialogue:

Moro: “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights” ... “You will make for my finest meal yet”.

Hmm

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:03 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:44 pm
I just would like to know how you interpret this piece of dialogue:

Moro: “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights” ... “You will make for my finest meal yet”.

Hmm
All in all Vegeta is still GoD level. Anyone from that realm of power is worth more than any planet Moro has ever eaten.

But I question whether he can refer to his energy's "quality". As in, a Vegeta with the spirit control has a "better" energy to give than a worn out Omen Goku (even if power Stressed seemed to deal way more damage than Vegeta could on Prime Moro).

Again, he should be comparable to regular Omen Goku, but it may have to do with his spirit training.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:53 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:03 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:44 pm
I just would like to know how you interpret this piece of dialogue:

Moro: “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights” ... “You will make for my finest meal yet”.

Hmm
All in all Vegeta is still GoD level. Anyone from that realm of power is worth more than any planet Moro has ever eaten.

But I question whether he can refer to his energy's "quality". As in, a Vegeta with the spirit control has a "better" energy to give than a worn out Omen Goku (even if power Stressed seemed to deal way more damage than Vegeta could on Prime Moro).

Again, he should be comparable to regular Omen Goku, but it may have to do with his spirit training.
What is regular Omen Goku?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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