Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:03 pm

They just can't let Jiren go. Despite contradicting Dragonball's story.
The obsession on trying to bring him along for the ride is not factual.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:08 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:30 pm
Based on what I have scaled in the ToP. It is based on anime data, but I believe it can apply to the Manga too. Omen was comparable to Supressed Jiren, who, as we know is strong enough to take on the likes of a KK×20 Blue Spirit Bomb and come at the tops, applying more or less the same effort with 1st Omen. 3rd Omen is strong enough to push his Full Power back, when KK×20 Goku Blue and Blue Evo Vegeta kinda couldn't.

That's about it. It depends on how you scale it.
I'd be really careful when it comes to scaling between the anime and the manga. No character or form between the mediums has been comparable in power (even the difference between SSG and SSB is suggested to be small in the manga, and SSB Vegeta/Goku are implied to be relatively close to a God of Destruction in power multiple times). Omen was able to take hits without any issue from a full power Jiren in the manga, and while Jiren does power up further, it was only enough to bring him about dead even with Ultra Instinct, so Omen and UI might actually be equivalent in overall strength in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:32 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:27 pm
The only information we have is that 7-Moro-3 may be more powerful. Unless we see it how can we be sure?

Again, Vegeta is at the very least comparable to Goku, but he probably doesn't have more strength that power stressed Omen. He simply performs better against Moro due to Spirit Fission.

This is an instance where strength isn't comparable to performance, unlike in the ToP with Jiren.
Moro says (to Vegeta): “Yes, you have gained a considerable amount of power. Yet you’re still not able to contend with me”.

Piccolo: “Vegeta has gotten stronger, I barely recognize him! But Moro is still more powerful than him. It’s a level that can’t be overcome with training alone...”.

Also Moro (to Vegeta): “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights. You will make for my finest meal yet”.

*Skips several pages*

Goku: “Moro’s chi is back to normal... Wait, no, it’s bigger than ever!!”

Moro: “This has restored me to my former glory... and more!”

I’m not sure how much clearer it can be.

See, in the beginning it was already clear that Vegeta’s power was the highest among the good guys, but Moro’s was still superior. It was only with the forced spirit fission that Vegeta managed to cross that bridge and turn the tables. Everything else that Goku and Piccolo talk about, besides his character development, is how he accomplished both strength and a difficult move. He surpassed Goku in both ways. It’s not only because he can use a super awesome technique, which wouldn’t even work on Goku anyway.

And Goku and Moro both confirm 73 allowed Moro to reach a even greater level. That’s why he managed to beat the blue out of Vegeta instantly, which he didn’t in his earlier form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:37 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:17 am
Well the question is, how much stronger is Ultra Instinct compared to Omen?
In the anime Jiren was as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct Goku made him look like he was standing still in comparison.

They teased Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie and didn't use it. They haven't used it in this arc either.

So it's strong enough that it's going to likely be saved for the next villain. With Jiren being a match for that then he's still the strongest antagonist so far. Stronger than Broly and Moro.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:50 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:45 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:13 pm
Old Moro was nowhere near SSJ God Vegeta in terms of sheer power. The only reason he fared aswell as he did against him was because of his magic and nothing more. He used the planet’s own energy to attack Vegeta (which strangely is powerful enough to overcome God Vegeta, but hey! Writing) So Old Moro never used his own power to fight on par with or overpower God Vegeta.
Can't disagree, but seeing Moro simply performing like this with no powering up sequence, tells me that although weaker to God Vegeta, he is near his level. He completely thrashed SS2 Vegeta, even if you count that his telekinesis was magic based.

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So being below God a bit makes the most sense. I also support the idea that there is no need for absolutely massive gaps in power to change the tide of battle. And even if they end up being massive, characters can still deal damage. This is the case of the former here.

So yeah, Elder Moro never overpowered Vegeta. But he wasn't far from his league.
Fair enough.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:11 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:03 pm
They just can't let Jiren go. Despite contradicting Dragonball's story.
The obsession on trying to bring him along for the ride is not factual.
The same could be said about Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:13 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:37 pm
In the anime Jiren was as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct Goku made him look like he was standing still in comparison.

They teased Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie and didn't use it. They haven't used it in this arc either.

So it's strong enough that it's going to likely be saved for the next villain. With Jiren being a match for that then he's still the strongest antagonist so far. Stronger than Broly and Moro.
But we're talking about the manga, where the difference doesn't seem all that palpable. The continuities have different levels of strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:35 am

We can't determine the difference there as well.

Ultra Instinct Sign Goku and Jiren were sort of on the same level, then Jiren powered up a lot then Ultra Instinct Goku easily overwhelmed him. Then Jiren powered up again after.

At best we could say that Moro was above Jiren when he was fighting evenly matched against Goku when he was using Sign because Moro was above the stronger Goku using Sign but that's about it for now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:06 pm

So how strong was Beerus when he woke up? his initial power I mean, the least strong Beerus known to man, before taking things seriously vs Vegeta and vs SSG.

I'm talking about the power he used vs SS3 Goku at King Kai's. It wasn't that much power because SS2 Vegeta managed to land some hits and push him around a little even if it was of no use after all. Sure, Beerus has so much in reserve nobody can touch him, but what if instead of SS3 Goku, that was Buuhan? or if it was Vegeta Baby? or GT SS4 Goku? could any of them catch Beerus off-guard and deal some serious damage?

If that happened to be Beerus' full power and had nothing else left, who would be needed for Beerus to die?
DB sure has someone that can kill the kind of power Beerus was using at that time, which was enough to easily put down SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks and Buu, but not for SS2 Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:36 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:06 pm
So how strong was Beerus when he woke up? his initial power I mean, the least strong Beerus known to man, before taking things seriously vs Vegeta and vs SSG.

I'm talking about the power he used vs SS3 Goku at King Kai's. It wasn't that much power because SS2 Vegeta managed to land some hits and push him around a little even if it was of no use after all. Sure, Beerus has so much in reserve nobody can touch him, but what if instead of SS3 Goku, that was Buuhan? or if it was Vegeta Baby? or GT SS4 Goku? could any of them catch Beerus off-guard and deal some serious damage?

If that happened to be Beerus' full power and had nothing else left, who would be needed for Beerus to die?
DB sure has someone that can kill the kind of power Beerus was using at that time, which was enough to easily put down SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks and Buu, but not for SS2 Vegeta.
While it was early in the DBS anime's days, Beerus states he uses 100% of his power against SSG Goku. This was obviously BS, but he also told Enraged SS2 Vegeta that he was forced to use 10% of his power.

While it requires some leaps, I make the argument that these in conjunction mean that, at the time, Beerus's full power in that state of suppression was equal to SSG fully, and that Vegeta reached 10% of that state while he was enraged by his wife being slapped.

This would mean Vegeta reached 1/10th of SSG's power at the time, which only leaves SSG's relation to Fusions and other known levels of power at the time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:22 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:06 pm
So how strong was Beerus when he woke up? his initial power I mean, the least strong Beerus known to man, before taking things seriously vs Vegeta and vs SSG.

I'm talking about the power he used vs SS3 Goku at King Kai's. It wasn't that much power because SS2 Vegeta managed to land some hits and push him around a little even if it was of no use after all. Sure, Beerus has so much in reserve nobody can touch him, but what if instead of SS3 Goku, that was Buuhan? or if it was Vegeta Baby? or GT SS4 Goku? could any of them catch Beerus off-guard and deal some serious damage?

If that happened to be Beerus' full power and had nothing else left, who would be needed for Beerus to die?
DB sure has someone that can kill the kind of power Beerus was using at that time, which was enough to easily put down SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks and Buu, but not for SS2 Vegeta.
interesting question. My thoughts are, at this time Ultimate Gohan's power had to diminish greatly. Goku SSJ3 was the post of power used to hype Vegeta up. Sure Goku could have made great gains but I bet it was a marginal increase. Just my thoughts on it. I think due to Vegeta's insane burst of power, it might be fair to say Beerus at the time was utilizing a power comparable to initial Buuhan. Before his power up to match Vegito. So SSJ1 GT Goku could do it easily and SSJ Vegito.

However! That might not be the case due to the fact Goku thought fusion wouldn't work. My thoughts are he meant the line based on how Beerus was barely trying. It wasn't "oh he is already stronger than Vegito" just more of a "based on how strong he was without trying, Vegito probably wouldn't work"

But if we take the line to assume he is stronger than Vegito, then not by too much I imagine. Obviously Beerus in cannon is leagues above but for this hypothetical the weakest version of Buuhan i'd say

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:00 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:37 pm
They teased Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie and didn't use it. They haven't used it in this arc either.
How so?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:30 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:11 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:03 pm
They just can't let Jiren go. Despite contradicting Dragonball's story.
The obsession on trying to bring him along for the ride is not factual.
The same could be said about Beerus.
With bias, it definitely can be.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:06 pm

Noah wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:00 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:37 pm
They teased Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie and didn't use it. They haven't used it in this arc either.
How so?
They showed it and purposefully didn't use it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:32 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:06 pm
So how strong was Beerus when he woke up? his initial power I mean, the least strong Beerus known to man, before taking things seriously vs Vegeta and vs SSG.

I'm talking about the power he used vs SS3 Goku at King Kai's. It wasn't that much power because SS2 Vegeta managed to land some hits and push him around a little even if it was of no use after all. Sure, Beerus has so much in reserve nobody can touch him, but what if instead of SS3 Goku, that was Buuhan? or if it was Vegeta Baby? or GT SS4 Goku? could any of them catch Beerus off-guard and deal some serious damage?

If that happened to be Beerus' full power and had nothing else left, who would be needed for Beerus to die?
DB sure has someone that can kill the kind of power Beerus was using at that time, which was enough to easily put down SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks and Buu, but not for SS2 Vegeta.
Goku after getting beaten said that not even fusion would beat him so I guess Beerus was > SS Vegetto.

The only reason Vegeta managed to last more than a second with him was because of his Quake of Fury.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:04 am

I have no reason to believe SSG was ever stronger than fusion honestly. It was only ever said fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. Ultimately, SSG ended up not being enough either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:40 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:04 am
I have no reason to believe SSG was ever stronger than fusion honestly. It was only ever said fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. Ultimately, SSG ended up not being enough either.
The fact that Goku is half-Vegito (and knew full well what Buu arc Vegito was capable of) and well as the fact that Goku was more confident about his chances against Beerus with SSG than he was with fusion, points to BoG SSG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegito (Buu arc).

Plus, SSG was flat out stated in-universe (and in guides) during BoG to a greater level of power than anything experienced before. So narrtively to message is that SSG > anything from Z. There's no evidence against this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:55 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:40 pm
The fact that Goku is half-Vegito (and knew full well what Buu arc Vegito was capable of) and well as the fact that Goku was more confident about his chances against Beerus with SSG than he was with fusion, points to BoG SSG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegito (Buu arc).

Plus, SSG was flat out stated in-universe (and in guides) during BoG to a greater level of power than anything experienced before. So narrtively to message is that SSG > anything from Z. There's no evidence against this.
It was also stated in guides/interviews and such that SSG was equivalent to 60% of Beerus' full strength. Do you still believe that's true?
Goku was more confident about his chances against Beerus with SSG than he was with fusion
Do you have any proof of this? Goku relied on SSG because it was the only option, it was what Beerus was looking for, and he knew fusion couldn't beat Beerus. But there wasn't ever a moment after Goku did the ritual where anyone was like "Oh wow, this power really IS stronger than Vegito" or something.

Everything after BoG in Super would lead me to believe Vegito would've done just as well against Beerus as an SSG Goku did. That is to say, put up a decent effort, and lose.

To complicate matters further, now you have it being the case that Vegito's and Gogeta's base forms in Super are stronger than Goku or Vegeta in SSB now. Plus you have Kefla, a fusion who in base form could go toe-to-toe with SSG Goku, even though the base forms of both her components are infinitely weaker than Goku or Vegeta. (If you think base form Caulifla/Kale could go up against Buu arc SS3 Goku or SS2 Vegeta, then that's simply a matter of opinion and something we disagree on.)

It's ambiguous enough that I'm not so foolish as to say "Oh yeah, Buu arc Vegito is DEFINITELY stronger than SSG Goku," but I'm just saying that to me personally, I don't think SSG Goku ended up surpassing a theoretical maximum-power Vegito, and it seems like there's enough evidence for me to back up that thought.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:10 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:55 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:40 pm
The fact that Goku is half-Vegito (and knew full well what Buu arc Vegito was capable of) and well as the fact that Goku was more confident about his chances against Beerus with SSG than he was with fusion, points to BoG SSG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegito (Buu arc).

Plus, SSG was flat out stated in-universe (and in guides) during BoG to a greater level of power than anything experienced before. So narrtively to message is that SSG > anything from Z. There's no evidence against this.
It was also stated in guides/interviews and such that SSG was equivalent to 60% of Beerus' full strength. Do you still believe that's true? The 60% thing is only in the movie continuity, it doesn't apply to Super
Goku was more confident about his chances against Beerus with SSG than he was with fusion
Do you have any proof of this? Goku relied on SSG because it was the only option, it was what Beerus was looking for, and he knew fusion couldn't beat Beerus. But there wasn't ever a moment after Goku did the ritual where anyone was like "Oh wow, this power really IS stronger than Vegito" or something.
The fact that he completely dismissed fusion ad an option yet had no doubts about SSG suggest that he was stronger than Buu arc Vegito

Everything after BoG in Super would lead me to believe Vegito would've done just as well against Beerus as an SSG Goku did. That is to say, put up a decent effort, and lose.

To complicate matters further, now you have it being the case that Vegito's and Gogeta's base forms in Super are stronger than Goku or Vegeta in SSB now. Plus you have Kefla, a fusion who in base form could go toe-to-toe with SSG Goku, even though the base forms of both her components are infinitely weaker than Goku or Vegeta. (If you think base form Caulifla/Kale could go up against Buu arc SS3 Goku or SS2 Vegeta, then that's simply a matter of opinion and something we disagree on.)
You are forgetting that fusion is a multiplier where the base result is stronger than either hall's strongest natural transformation, not a fixed tier of power. Also, you are making a false analogy. You are comparing the feats of Post-BoG Post-Whis training Gogeta & Vegito (who's base individual halves are already stronger than anything from Z) to that of Buu arc Vegito, who's halves are massively weaker.

Also, you're wrong about the U6 Saiyans. Base to base, Caulifla, Cabba and especially Kale were basically in the same league as Goku & Vegeta in the ToP. And yes, any U6 base Saiyan could solo Z easily


It's ambiguous enough that I'm not so foolish as to say "Oh yeah, Buu arc Vegito is DEFINITELY stronger than SSG Goku," but I'm just saying that to me personally, I don't think SSG Goku ended up surpassing a theoretical maximum-power Vegito, and it seems like there's enough evidence for me to back up that thought. There isn't any evidence in any medium that anything from Z could even phase SSG Goku at all. Nearly all available info suggest BoG SSG Goku solos Z.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:34 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:04 am
I have no reason to believe SSG was ever stronger than fusion honestly. It was only ever said fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. Ultimately, SSG ended up not being enough either.
Goku said he never imagined that a realm of power like the Super Saiyan God could exist, and he could certainly imagine how strong a hypothetical Vegetto would be at his maximum strength (SSJ3 Vegetto). The point was really that the SSG was a level of power above anything DBZ could provide, or at least that was the intention.

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