Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Berserker1921
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:32 am

I doubt Gogeta or Vegito are angel level as of now. In the manga or anime. I don’t think SsjB Gogeta was that much stronger than Broly or Beerus.

I still doubt that Broly is stronger or on the level of Beerus. This was Goku assuming. We have never seen a fully unleashed Beerus. Goku shouldn’t know Beerus full potential. Only Whis would know. And not once did he think or say anything to justify that. Also, Beerus, didn’t seem concerned or nervous by the battle. Unlike he did with jiren.

And even if Gogeta could use ssjbE or ssjbkkx20 or even both. He wouldn’t last more than a minute at best.

We don’t know how powerful Grand Priest is. If Whis goes out of his way to actively mention that GP would kick his butt. That’s saying something.

Whis wasn’t afraid of SsjB Gogeta or MUI Goku. He was impressed. But not nervous or afraid.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:49 am

For in-universe statements I don't think it really matters who is saying them but that it's the author saying those things through them. In this case is Toriyama through Goku ranking the new character's amazing above Beerus.

I mean, it's not really Goku going rogue and defying Toriyama. Characters say what the author wants them to say.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:54 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:49 am
For in-universe statements I don't think it really matters who is saying them but that it's the author saying those things through them. In this case is Toriyama through Goku ranking the new character's amazing above Beerus.

I mean, it's not really Goku going rogue and defying Toriyama. Characters say what the author wants them to say.
Was this said from the promotional statements? Because, they often hype someone to gain viewers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:55 am

I have a question: How strong do you think Zeno's guards are? I figure they must be at least Hakaishin level, and likely Angel level (they can use the same Warp technique that the Angels do, but they don't need a staff to do it). They are almost certainly weaker than Daishinkan, though, at least individually. How many of them do you think it would take to defeat him, if they all attacked him at once? I also wonder what their origin/species is, but that's not really a topic for this thread.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:58 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:49 am
For in-universe statements I don't think it really matters who is saying them but that it's the author saying those things through them. In this case is Toriyama through Goku ranking the new character's amazing above Beerus.

I mean, it's not really Goku going rogue and defying Toriyama. Characters say what the author wants them to say.
Going by that logic, Mr. Satan and Monaka are both stronger than Goku. :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:28 am

Do you think Moro will reach angel level? Especially, with all the hax powers he has.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:34 am

Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:32 am
I still doubt that Broly is stronger or on the level of Beerus. This was Goku assuming. We have never seen a fully unleashed Beerus. Goku shouldn’t know Beerus full potential. Only Whis would know. And not once did he think or say anything to justify that. Also, Beerus, didn’t seem concerned or nervous by the battle. Unlike he did with jiren.
At the very least, in the manga continuity we (and in fact, Goku as well) have seen Beerus fight at full power in the Zeno exhibition. So it's entirely within reason in that continuity at least that Broly is stronger than Beerus, and that Goku knows what he's saying.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:44 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:34 am
Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:32 am
I still doubt that Broly is stronger or on the level of Beerus. This was Goku assuming. We have never seen a fully unleashed Beerus. Goku shouldn’t know Beerus full potential. Only Whis would know. And not once did he think or say anything to justify that. Also, Beerus, didn’t seem concerned or nervous by the battle. Unlike he did with jiren.
At the very least, in the manga continuity we (and in fact, Goku as well) have seen Beerus fight at full power in the Zeno exhibition. So it's entirely within reason in that continuity at least that Broly is stronger than Beerus, and that Goku knows what he's saying.
Even then, we don’t know if that’s his full power. Yes, it was a death match. You’d think they would go 100%. But, some of the gods were not even injured. I think Beerus is still much stronger than he is letting on. But we I’ll have an answer in this newest arc. If Beerus fights Moro.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:07 am

Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:44 am
Even then, we don’t know if that’s his full power. Yes, it was a death match. You’d think they would go 100%. But, some of the gods were not even injured. I think Beerus is still much stronger than he is letting on. But we I’ll have an answer in this newest arc. If Beerus fights Moro.
The only god who wasn't injured was Belmod, specifically because he took a dive (to foreshadow how 17 would win despite being weaker than Jiren.) Goku actually specifically notes during the confrontation that Beerus is going all out in that tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:20 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:07 am
Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:44 am
Even then, we don’t know if that’s his full power. Yes, it was a death match. You’d think they would go 100%. But, some of the gods were not even injured. I think Beerus is still much stronger than he is letting on. But we I’ll have an answer in this newest arc. If Beerus fights Moro.
The only god who wasn't injured was Belmod, specifically because he took a dive (to foreshadow how 17 would win despite being weaker than Jiren.) Goku actually specifically notes during the confrontation that Beerus is going all out in that tournament.
I don’t know. Maybe. But canon is confusing now. We have three canons. Anime, manga, and movie. Also, we didn’t have a Broly arc in the manga

So, in anime, we have no idea.

Manga, Beerus showed off his full power.

And movies, it can go either way. If we count the fight from BoG movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:23 am

Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:20 am
I don’t know. Maybe. But canon is confusing now. We have three canons. Anime, manga, and movie. Also, we didn’t have a Broly arc in the manga

So, in anime, we have no idea.

Manga, Beerus showed off his full power.

And movies, it can go either way. If we count the fight from BoG movie.
We don't have a Broly arc in the manga, but the chapter that finishes the ToP (and the extra chapter) basically just say to go see the movie because that's what happened.

Honestly, I think hoping that Beerus is actually stronger than Broly is wishful thinking at this point. Only the anime gives some leeway, but that's because SSBKK/SSBE/UI aren't used in the movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:30 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:23 am
Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:20 am
I don’t know. Maybe. But canon is confusing now. We have three canons. Anime, manga, and movie. Also, we didn’t have a Broly arc in the manga

So, in anime, we have no idea.

Manga, Beerus showed off his full power.

And movies, it can go either way. If we count the fight from BoG movie.
We don't have a Broly arc in the manga, but the chapter that finishes the ToP (and the extra chapter) basically just say to go see the movie because that's what happened.

Honestly, I think hoping that Beerus is actually stronger than Broly is wishful thinking at this point. Only the anime gives some leeway, but that's because SSBKK/SSBE/UI aren't used in the movie.
In the anime, Beerus wasn’t scared by the first 2 power ups. However, became nervous and admired UIO/MUI.

I feel Beerus wasn’t afraid of broly. I know we didn’t see what he was doing when the battle was going on with bulla. He didn’t seem concerned or anything. I have a feeling that he is still stronger than Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:22 am

Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:32 am
I don’t think SsjB Gogeta was that much stronger than Broly or Beerus.
The difference in strength between them was night and day. Broly literally couldn't land a single hit on Gogeta Blue. The fight wouldn't have been so one sided in Gogeta's favor if they were close in strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:13 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:22 am
Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:32 am
I don’t think SsjB Gogeta was that much stronger than Broly or Beerus.
The difference in strength between them was night and day. Broly literally couldn't land a single hit on Gogeta Blue. The fight wouldn't have been so one sided in Gogeta's favor if they were close in strength.
Gogeta was faster than Broly. No doubt. Broly couldn’t lay a finger on him the moment he went blue. Doesn’t mean he couldn’t damage him if he caught him. He lasted 90% of the fight. The only time he was in real danger was when Gogeta was going to use his kamehama on him.

The fight sort of reminds me of Grade 3 Trunks vs Cell. Trunks had power to match or exceed cell (at that time). However, couldn’t hit him.

Even Goku knew about this. However chose grade 4 because gave him more speed.

What I am saying is Gogeta was faster than Broly. Which I think that gave him bigger edge. Instead of actual power. Of course this is dragon ball, where power means everything.

I said my statement regarding to Beerus over Broly. I still believe that Beerus has some stuff up his sleeves that present a threat to Gogeta. I mentioned earlier, we will have to see what happens by the end of the Moro arc. Because, right now I doubt Gogeta or any other fusion would present a threat to Moro.

I know am off topic. But, I think Beerus stronger than Broly. And I personally think a match for blue Gogeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:17 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:40 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:20 pm
Putting Ikari Broly as equal to SSB Goku is for simplicity's sake. The 2 trade blows relatively evenly, and neither is really sweating it by the time Broly becomes a Super Saiyan. It also just makes more sense to me, seeing as how base Gogeta performed similar to SSB Goku against SS Broly.

Super Saiyan equal to Super Saiyan, base form to base form, etc.

It just makes everything simpler and works well enough with what's seen anyways. Too many minute differences, you lose the simplicity and ease of comparing characters.
But for Freeza to decide to end the fight does tell us they really weren't equal. A tired Goku had the advantage.

There also are too many variables between base Gogeta and Broly. We don't know if the latter got stronger by fighting Freeza and we also don't know if the former was really on par with Ikari Broly in base since he just evaded the attacks with a real fight head on. Hell, we don't really even know if Ikari and Super Saiyan stack.
Which is WHY I try to simplify things a bit. I don't take every aura flare and scream from Broly as an immediate power-up, I see both fighters trading blows and smiling as they fight one another as relatively even in terms of raw power, I assume that equivalent forms are meant to be equivalent, etc.

Makes thing easier and honestly lines up more with what I think the filmmakers are thinking, little regard as they give to power-scaling.

If I try to make every single potential discrepancy a point that throws things outta whack, I'd get frustrated too often and just not bother anymore. There's such a thing as choosing which assumptions to make.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:07 am

As Berserker said, Gogeta Blue went out of his way to strike Broly as hard as he could, multiple times, while simultaneously not even trying to take Broly's blows head on. Gogeta was indeed stronger than Broly, but I argue that it wasn't by so much that he could just stand in place and still beat him - like Cell did to 16.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:44 am

Thani wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:07 am
As Berserker said, Gogeta Blue went out of his way to strike Broly as hard as he could, multiple times, while simultaneously not even trying to take Broly's blows head on. Gogeta was indeed stronger than Broly, but I argue that it wasn't by so much that he could just stand in place and still beat him - like Cell did to 16.
Yeah, I do feel like if Gogeta just stood there and tried to tank ki attacks & physical blows from Broly, even with his guard up... he would've definitely felt those hits... If not put him in danger. Don't think the gap was too big. Prob a 30 - 50% difference.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:52 am

Imo, the biggest gap possible between Broly at FPSS and Blue Gogeta is 2 times.

Headcanon alert: I would put Broly at his strongest on par with 75×Blue and Blue Fusion at 150×Blue along with MUI.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:12 pm

Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:13 am
Gogeta was faster than Broly. No doubt. Broly couldn’t lay a finger on him the moment he went blue. Doesn’t mean he couldn’t damage him if he caught him. He lasted 90% of the fight. The only time he was in real danger was when Gogeta was going to use his kamehama on him.

The fight sort of reminds me of Grade 3 Trunks vs Cell. Trunks had power to match or exceed cell (at that time). However, couldn’t hit him.

Even Goku knew about this. However chose grade 4 because gave him more speed.

What I am saying is Gogeta was faster than Broly. Which I think that gave him bigger edge. Instead of actual power. Of course this is dragon ball, where power means everything.

I said my statement regarding to Beerus over Broly. I still believe that Beerus has some stuff up his sleeves that present a threat to Gogeta. I mentioned earlier, we will have to see what happens by the end of the Moro arc. Because, right now I doubt Gogeta or any other fusion would present a threat to Moro.

I know am off topic. But, I think Beerus stronger than Broly. And I personally think a match for blue Gogeta.
It's important to note that Broly and Gogeta actually have two fist clashes in the movie. Both end with Gogeta being unmoved while Broly is sent flying back. The difference in strength is genuinely palpable. Though, I'm not trying to downplay Broly's power either, given the sheer pummeling he took from Gogeta and stayed standing anyhow.
Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:30 am
In the anime, Beerus wasn’t scared by the first 2 power ups. However, became nervous and admired UIO/MUI.

I feel Beerus wasn’t afraid of broly. I know we didn’t see what he was doing when the battle was going on with bulla. He didn’t seem concerned or anything. I have a feeling that he is still stronger than Broly.
Beerus is actually very unnerved by Goku bringing out SSBKK during the U6 tournament, which Whis points out. The initial idea seemed to be that Kaioken would be enough for Goku to possibly take Beerus on, before Ultra Instinct's greater heights seemingly contradict that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:13 pm

Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:54 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:49 am
For in-universe statements I don't think it really matters who is saying them but that it's the author saying those things through them. In this case is Toriyama through Goku ranking the new character's amazing above Beerus.

I mean, it's not really Goku going rogue and defying Toriyama. Characters say what the author wants them to say.
Was this said from the promotional statements? Because, they often hype someone to gain viewers.
What do you mean? it was stated in the movie, Toriyama had in mind Broly stronger than Beerus, and decided to make it explicit through Goku's comment.

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