Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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miguelnuva1
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:40 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:58 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:49 am
For in-universe statements I don't think it really matters who is saying them but that it's the author saying those things through them. In this case is Toriyama through Goku ranking the new character's amazing above Beerus.

I mean, it's not really Goku going rogue and defying Toriyama. Characters say what the author wants them to say.
Going by that logic, Mr. Satan and Monaka are both stronger than Goku. :lol:
Monks and Hercule are both shown to be weaker after their statement of being stronger. A statement that isn't later proven false is info the author is trying to tell us.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:42 pm

SS Gogeta took two hits from FP thendirst hurt him and he blocked the second. He is way more than 2x Broly. Broly only looks 2x SS Gogeta

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:58 am
Going by that logic, Mr. Satan and Monaka are both stronger than Goku. :lol:
Hercule is a parody and Monaka is a deliberate red herring. Characters used for jokes like them shouldn't be compared to Goku seriously making note after fighting him that Broly is likely stronger than Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:06 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:13 pm
Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:54 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:49 am
For in-universe statements I don't think it really matters who is saying them but that it's the author saying those things through them. In this case is Toriyama through Goku ranking the new character's amazing above Beerus.

I mean, it's not really Goku going rogue and defying Toriyama. Characters say what the author wants them to say.
Was this said from the promotional statements? Because, they often hype someone to gain viewers.
What do you mean? it was stated in the movie, Toriyama had in mind Broly stronger than Beerus, and decided to make it explicit through Goku's comment.
That is an inaccurate statement. Toriyama wrote the dialogue with the purpose of uncertainty, using "probably." That's a word contrary to fact. He didn't flat out say Broly is stronger than Beerus. He didn't give a straight yes or no answer. This is how Beerus is treated throughout the series. Shin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus. He didn't say that he did. Toyotaro even confirmed the uncertain narration with defining Shin's statement as an "unknown." V-Jump's statement about Vegetto being a match for Beerus isn't in the story.

As for the debate, whether Gogeta was trying against Broly or not. There was no dialogue explaining Gogeta was holding back against Broly. Toriyama gave indication that Goku was holding back against Fat Buu in SSJ3. As well as Goku holding back against Majin Vegeta [He had SSJ3]. No such thing for the Gogeta vs Broly fight. Therefore, Gogeta was not holding back. Especially when Gogeta is using his best form, using multiple attacks and screaming his lungs out only to subdue; not defeat Broly. All those attacks only made Broly revert to Super Saiyan but Gogeta needed a Kamehameha to finish him off.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:40 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:06 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:13 pm
Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:54 am


Was this said from the promotional statements? Because, they often hype someone to gain viewers.
What do you mean? it was stated in the movie, Toriyama had in mind Broly stronger than Beerus, and decided to make it explicit through Goku's comment.
That is an inaccurate statement. Toriyama wrote the dialogue with the purpose of uncertainty, using "probably." That's a word contrary to fact. He didn't flat out say Broly is stronger than Beerus. He didn't give a straight yes or no answer. This is how Beerus is treated throughout the series. Shin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus. He didn't say that he did. Toyotaro even confirmed the uncertain narration with defining Shin's statement as an "unknown." V-Jump's statement about Vegetto being a match for Beerus isn't in the story.

As for the debate, whether Gogeta was trying against Broly or not. There was no dialogue explaining Gogeta was holding back against Broly. Toriyama gave indication that Goku was holding back against Fat Buu in SSJ3. As well as Goku holding back against Majin Vegeta [He had SSJ3]. No such thing for the Gogeta vs Broly fight. Therefore, Gogeta was not holding back. Especially when Gogeta is using his best form, using multiple attacks and screaming his lungs out only to subdue; not defeat Broly. All those attacks only made Broly revert to Super Saiyan but Gogeta needed a Kamehameha to finish him off.
Hey, you don't have to like it, I certainly don't, but you do have to accept it. I won't argue the actual statements on the movie written by the man himself. The word "probably" doesn't even matter anymore, after his zenkai "probably" probably went out the window. That was a mouthful.

And Shin didn't ask, his dialogue wasn't placed as an inquiry, it was placed to scale Vegito Blue, it even depends on the translation, but the subtext is more on the lines of "could this actually be happening?" instead of "hey, do you think he is stronger than Beerus now?.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:49 pm

Shin didn't even know that Beerus existed before Battle of Gods. It's much less likely that he has any idea of how strong Beerus really is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:02 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:40 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:58 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:49 am
For in-universe statements I don't think it really matters who is saying them but that it's the author saying those things through them. In this case is Toriyama through Goku ranking the new character's amazing above Beerus.

I mean, it's not really Goku going rogue and defying Toriyama. Characters say what the author wants them to say.
Going by that logic, Mr. Satan and Monaka are both stronger than Goku. :lol:
Monks and Hercule are both shown to be weaker after their statement of being stronger. A statement that isn't later proven false is info the author is trying to tell us.
But that's just the point. You never know what could or could not be 'proven false' until it happens.

A few years back, everyone thought Freeza would never be a match for even Cell saga characters, for example. If you told someone that Toriyama intended to make Freeza strong enough to one-shot SSJ2 Vegeto, no one would believe you. Yet here we are.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:44 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:40 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:06 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:13 pm


What do you mean? it was stated in the movie, Toriyama had in mind Broly stronger than Beerus, and decided to make it explicit through Goku's comment.
That is an inaccurate statement. Toriyama wrote the dialogue with the purpose of uncertainty, using "probably." That's a word contrary to fact. He didn't flat out say Broly is stronger than Beerus. He didn't give a straight yes or no answer. This is how Beerus is treated throughout the series. Shin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus. He didn't say that he did. Toyotaro even confirmed the uncertain narration with defining Shin's statement as an "unknown." V-Jump's statement about Vegetto being a match for Beerus isn't in the story.

As for the debate, whether Gogeta was trying against Broly or not. There was no dialogue explaining Gogeta was holding back against Broly. Toriyama gave indication that Goku was holding back against Fat Buu in SSJ3. As well as Goku holding back against Majin Vegeta [He had SSJ3]. No such thing for the Gogeta vs Broly fight. Therefore, Gogeta was not holding back. Especially when Gogeta is using his best form, using multiple attacks and screaming his lungs out only to subdue; not defeat Broly. All those attacks only made Broly revert to Super Saiyan but Gogeta needed a Kamehameha to finish him off.
Hey, you don't have to like it, I certainly don't, but you do have to accept it. I won't argue the actual statements on the movie written by the man himself. The word "probably" doesn't even matter anymore, after his zenkai "probably" probably went out the window. That was a mouthful.

And Shin didn't ask, his dialogue wasn't placed as an inquiry, it was placed to scale Vegito Blue, it even depends on the translation, but the subtext is more on the lines of "could this actually be happening?" instead of "hey, do you think he is stronger than Beerus now?.
lol, You just gave me a mouthful of uncertainties just like the story does about Beerus power.

Thank you. I like that we can agree with the story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:46 pm

Thani wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:49 pm
Shin didn't even know that Beerus existed before Battle of Gods. It's much less likely that he has any idea of how strong Beerus really is.
Shin saying things holds little water, that is true and it could even be extended to mostly everyone, but the point of including certain comments isn't so we can dissect and disprove them, it was the only reliable source at the time(who would take Gowasu's word about another GoD?) to speak about something. It wasn't actually Shin speaking, it was Toyotaro. He planned to have Vegito Blue match Beerus and found the best way he could to put that on the table. It was probably true, because by the Broly movie, blue fusion wipes the floor with a Beerus level foe.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:02 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:40 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:58 am


Going by that logic, Mr. Satan and Monaka are both stronger than Goku. :lol:
Monks and Hercule are both shown to be weaker after their statement of being stronger. A statement that isn't later proven false is info the author is trying to tell us.
But that's just the point. You never know what could or could not be 'proven false' until it happens.

A few years back, everyone thought Freeza would never be a match for even Cell saga characters, for example. If you told someone that Toriyama intended to make Freeza strong enough to one-shot SSJ2 Vegeto, no one would believe you. Yet here we are.
Yeah, but we need the fact that disproves that in order to actually disprove it. We now have Freeza for that, but what do we have for Beerus?

Following that train of thought then we can't make a fair assessment of anybody until not just the arc, but the whole show, is over. It's been two years now, so it's fair to assume back then Broly had more power than Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:07 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:02 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:40 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:58 am


Going by that logic, Mr. Satan and Monaka are both stronger than Goku. :lol:
Monks and Hercule are both shown to be weaker after their statement of being stronger. A statement that isn't later proven false is info the author is trying to tell us.
But that's just the point. You never know what could or could not be 'proven false' until it happens.

A few years back, everyone thought Freeza would never be a match for even Cell saga characters, for example. If you told someone that Toriyama intended to make Freeza strong enough to one-shot SSJ2 Vegeto, no one would believe you. Yet here we are.
That's a retcon then. If Hercule or Monka dumped to those levels of power it would be a retcon or they would be give an reason why they powered up so much.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:09 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:06 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:13 pm
Berserker1921 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:54 am


Was this said from the promotional statements? Because, they often hype someone to gain viewers.
What do you mean? it was stated in the movie, Toriyama had in mind Broly stronger than Beerus, and decided to make it explicit through Goku's comment.
That is an inaccurate statement. Toriyama wrote the dialogue with the purpose of uncertainty, using "probably." That's a word contrary to fact. He didn't flat out say Broly is stronger than Beerus. He didn't give a straight yes or no answer. This is how Beerus is treated throughout the series. Shin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus. He didn't say that he did. Toyotaro even confirmed the uncertain narration with defining Shin's statement as an "unknown." V-Jump's statement about Vegetto being a match for Beerus isn't in the story.

As for the debate, whether Gogeta was trying against Broly or not. There was no dialogue explaining Gogeta was holding back against Broly. Toriyama gave indication that Goku was holding back against Fat Buu in SSJ3. As well as Goku holding back against Majin Vegeta [He had SSJ3]. No such thing for the Gogeta vs Broly fight. Therefore, Gogeta was not holding back. Especially when Gogeta is using his best form, using multiple attacks and screaming his lungs out only to subdue; not defeat Broly. All those attacks only made Broly revert to Super Saiyan but Gogeta needed a Kamehameha to finish him off.
The light novel says Gogeta had just started showing a hint of his true power. The moienhas SS Gogeta take a punch from FP Broly and he withstood it.

The saiyans tell all the time and Hit even makes fun of it. Broly is a tank but as far as power goes he was nothing to Gogeta.

Buuhan put up more of a fight with Vegito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:29 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:09 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:06 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:13 pm


What do you mean? it was stated in the movie, Toriyama had in mind Broly stronger than Beerus, and decided to make it explicit through Goku's comment.
That is an inaccurate statement. Toriyama wrote the dialogue with the purpose of uncertainty, using "probably." That's a word contrary to fact. He didn't flat out say Broly is stronger than Beerus. He didn't give a straight yes or no answer. This is how Beerus is treated throughout the series. Shin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus. He didn't say that he did. Toyotaro even confirmed the uncertain narration with defining Shin's statement as an "unknown." V-Jump's statement about Vegetto being a match for Beerus isn't in the story.

As for the debate, whether Gogeta was trying against Broly or not. There was no dialogue explaining Gogeta was holding back against Broly. Toriyama gave indication that Goku was holding back against Fat Buu in SSJ3. As well as Goku holding back against Majin Vegeta [He had SSJ3]. No such thing for the Gogeta vs Broly fight. Therefore, Gogeta was not holding back. Especially when Gogeta is using his best form, using multiple attacks and screaming his lungs out only to subdue; not defeat Broly. All those attacks only made Broly revert to Super Saiyan but Gogeta needed a Kamehameha to finish him off.
The light novel says Gogeta had just started showing a hint of his true power. The moienhas SS Gogeta take a punch from FP Broly and he withstood it.

The saiyans tell all the time and Hit even makes fun of it. Broly is a tank but as far as power goes he was nothing to Gogeta.

Buuhan put up more of a fight with Vegito.
That's not comparable. Vegetto only used SSJ against Ultimate Buu. So he was obviously holding back. Gogeta used his most powerful form against Broly. Broly's power was indeed comparable to Gogeta's. That's why Broly didn't get a two-punch hitter-quitter, like Cell got by Gohan. Now that's a huge power difference!

The novel is not the film. The movie having SSJ Gogeta take a punch from Green Broly doesn't mean anything. Since Broly and Gogeta's fist clashing can destroy the dimension and even tho Broly was sent flying he recovered! Add to the fact that he takes a ton from a much stronger Blue Gogeta right afterwards.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:42 pm

Beerus is the new Gohan. Everyone wants him to be the strongest even though there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Vegito/Gogeta, Jiren, Ultra Instinct Goku, Broly, most likely Moro now, and based on Vegito probably Fused Zamasu in the anime too, are all stronger than Beerus. (Plus Hearts if you wanna include Heroes. 'Cause why not.)

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Vegeta's new technique could let him beat the cat. Beerus hasn't been the "strongest" non-angel for a long time now, at least if you count fusions. Which honestly, fell in line with Whis saying in Resurrection F that Goku and Vegeta together could put up a fight against him if they worked together. Well, guess who Goku and Vegeta couldn't beat by working together in the movie after Resurrection F.

I like Beerus as much as the next guy, and I wanna see him do more, but we've seen his full power. He (and Gods of Destruction as a whole) have been compared to and used to make note of the frightening strength of newer antagonists. Hoping that there's some power from him we haven't seen yet is wishful thinking at this point. He might be the strongest God of Destruction, but he probably isn't the strongest in Universe 7. Or Universe 11. Hell there's a chance Kefla has him beat in the anime continuity too.

Who knows, maybe the manga will change that at some point. But until then, again, wishful thinking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:59 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:46 pm
Thani wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:49 pm
Shin didn't even know that Beerus existed before Battle of Gods. It's much less likely that he has any idea of how strong Beerus really is.
Shin saying things holds little water, that is true and it could even be extended to mostly everyone, but the point of including certain comments isn't so we can dissect and disprove them, it was the only reliable source at the time(who would take Gowasu's word about another GoD?) to speak about something. It wasn't actually Shin speaking, it was Toyotaro. He planned to have Vegito Blue match Beerus and found the best way he could to put that on the table. It was probably true, because by the Broly movie, blue fusion wipes the floor with a Beerus level foe.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:02 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:40 pm


Monks and Hercule are both shown to be weaker after their statement of being stronger. A statement that isn't later proven false is info the author is trying to tell us.
But that's just the point. You never know what could or could not be 'proven false' until it happens.

A few years back, everyone thought Freeza would never be a match for even Cell saga characters, for example. If you told someone that Toriyama intended to make Freeza strong enough to one-shot SSJ2 Vegeto, no one would believe you. Yet here we are.
Yeah, but we need the fact that disproves that in order to actually disprove it. We now have Freeza for that, but what do we have for Beerus?

Following that train of thought then we can't make a fair assessment of anybody until not just the arc, but the whole show, is over. It's been two years now, so it's fair to assume back then Broly had more power than Beerus.
Broly could be stronger than Beerus. But he might not be. There is no clear indication one way or the other.

I just hope someone will answer my question about Zeno's guards, though.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:01 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:59 pm
Broly could be stronger than Beerus. But he might not be. There is no clear indication one way or the other.

I just hope someone will answer my question about Zeno's guards, though.
Zeno's guards a non-entities. We're never given any indication for who they are. If anything, their goal seems to be to just keep Zeno appeased and make sure no one offends him in their presence. Whether their strong or not is a pointless question because we haven't been given any indication that they can fight in the first place. Or even have any personality of their own.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:23 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:01 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:59 pm
Broly could be stronger than Beerus. But he might not be. There is no clear indication one way or the other.

I just hope someone will answer my question about Zeno's guards, though.
Zeno's guards a non-entities. We're never given any indication for who they are. If anything, their goal seems to be to just keep Zeno appeased and make sure no one offends him in their presence. Whether their strong or not is a pointless question because we haven't been given any indication that they can fight in the first place. Or even have any personality of their own.
Zeno's Guards should at least be Angel tier as they are protecting the King and were ready to attack Goku in the U6 arc but GoD level could also work.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:57 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:59 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:46 pm
Thani wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:49 pm
Shin didn't even know that Beerus existed before Battle of Gods. It's much less likely that he has any idea of how strong Beerus really is.
Shin saying things holds little water, that is true and it could even be extended to mostly everyone, but the point of including certain comments isn't so we can dissect and disprove them, it was the only reliable source at the time(who would take Gowasu's word about another GoD?) to speak about something. It wasn't actually Shin speaking, it was Toyotaro. He planned to have Vegito Blue match Beerus and found the best way he could to put that on the table. It was probably true, because by the Broly movie, blue fusion wipes the floor with a Beerus level foe.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:02 pm


But that's just the point. You never know what could or could not be 'proven false' until it happens.

A few years back, everyone thought Freeza would never be a match for even Cell saga characters, for example. If you told someone that Toriyama intended to make Freeza strong enough to one-shot SSJ2 Vegeto, no one would believe you. Yet here we are.
Yeah, but we need the fact that disproves that in order to actually disprove it. We now have Freeza for that, but what do we have for Beerus?

Following that train of thought then we can't make a fair assessment of anybody until not just the arc, but the whole show, is over. It's been two years now, so it's fair to assume back then Broly had more power than Beerus.
Broly could be stronger than Beerus. But he might not be. There is no clear indication one way or the other.

I just hope someone will answer my question about Zeno's guards, though.
The guards have to be strong. They showed no fear from Goku. So that means they are above blue level or god tier at the very least. They’re power varies from high blue tier to Angel tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:03 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:59 pm


I just hope someone will answer my question about Zeno's guards, though.
They are there to protect Zeno, they should be stronger than every hakaishin at the very least, who seem to be the least trust-worthy of the hierarchy. They should also be able to stand up to angels, and seeing there are only two guards, they can probably deal with more than one angel at a time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:07 am

The thing is, Zeno doesn't need protection. The guy can erase anything at whim. It's entirely plausible the guards aren't fighters, and to speculate is ultimately pointless since, as we've seen, they're non-entities who have yet to even speak. I wouldn't be surprised if they're angel-tier, but for all we know they could be Monaka-tier.

It'd be like me pointing out one of the random Galactic Patrol members and going "Gee, I wonder how strong they are? They must be strong enough to protect whatever quadrant of the galaxy they're in." And the most truthful non-answer is anywhere in the massive gap between Jaco (if not even lower than that) and Merus.

Yes they "guard" Zeno (though it's also just as likely they're simple attendants or retainers that cater to his wants) but until someone in-universe comments on them, this is effectively in the realm of a fanfiction/headcanon discussion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:43 am

Why debate if Broly is or isn't stronger than Beerus?

Just the possibility of him being stronger or not, the comparison itself, means that they should be on rather equal grounds.

That said, as Whis stated in Resurrection F about Goku and Vegeta working together to defeat Beerus, we get in Broly his quote on Gogeta.

And surprise, surprise Blue Fusion does indeed defeat Broly. So he should be able to defeat Beerus too.

If Beerus gets hyped as above blue fusion that will be bs imo. You can't just leave his power this vague after 5 years of new enemies and rivals, who even exceed the power of GoDs.

Moro mopping the floor with Beerus could finally break this seal of invincibility Beerus has.
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