Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[miguelnuva1]

A simple story like Dragonball isn't trying to trick the audience. It's purpose is to keep it understandable.
It only gets complicated when fans try to give interpretations of what a statement meant. Or undermine dialogue with images.

Bottom line: Goku said he needs to surpass Vegeta.

Because Goku can't stay powered up in UI Sign, Vegeta has taken beatings from people more powerful than him several times before.

Look at it like this, did Trunks with Grade 3 really surpass Grade 2 Vegeta?

Vegeta has a stronger form of blue, is just as smart and has a dangerous new technique. Goku would burn Sign out.

[Dragon Wukong]

Look at it like this, did Trunks with Grade 3 really surpass Grade 2 Vegeta?

Basically this.

A simple story like Dragonball isn't trying to trick the audience. It's purpose is to keep it understandable.
It only gets complicated when fans try to give interpretations of what a statement meant. Or undermine dialogue with images.

Bottom line: Goku said he needs to surpass Vegeta.

But the dialogue literally undermines Vegeta.

Bottom line: This is the audience reaction to Vegeta vs Moro (when Moro had his full power.)



Compare to the audience reaction to Goku vs Moro (again, after Moro started using his full power.)



So, either Goku's statement is contradicting these moments, or he isn't speaking literally in terms of power. Which given the nature of Vegeta's ability, is most likely the case.

Again, keep in mind Vegeta doesn't begin to do well against Moro at all until he's lost his strength. And the opposite is true for Moro against Goku.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Goku never physically did better then Vegeta, in fact Vegeta had more effect on Moro then Omen based on Moro reaction to getting hit

Moro reaction from getting hit by Goku


Moro reaction from getting hit from Vegeta



How Goku reacts to Moro hitting him



How Vegeta reacts after Moro hits him




Difference is Vegeta went to use his ability straight away and got thing done quickly.

Moro thinks Vegeta is his finest meal



Piccolo and Goku admit Vegeta > Goku




Vegeta has surpassed Omen Goku

[FishermanJohnWest]

Didn't Manga Beerus master UI sign? Even ifnGoku and Vegeta caught his full power he still has that form.

it was said he hasn't fully mastered UI



And he shown UI when he dodged 5 Gods at the same time. Until Goku masters UI, he won't be surpassing Beerus by the looks of it

He hasn't mastered Ultra Instinct, he mastered Ultra Instinct Sign which is the form Goku uses with the black hair.

Black hair Omen is merely just the sign of UI, what Beerus did is no different then what completed UI Goku did, Omen got hit constantly by every enemy it fought. MUI is what Whis has essentially

[Dragon Wukong]

<snip>

Yet, Vegeta didn't push a full power Moro back. Goku did.

Mind you, that image of Moro tossing Goku around happens as Goku's power begins failing him. And to say Vegeta was stronger against Moro's full strength still requires ignoring 18's and Gohan's comments on their fight intially.

As far as "Vegeta is stronger than Goku now" goes, at worst it's a contradiction, at best it's debatable. So feel free to debate it, but I wouldn't tout it as some absolute fact.

I don't find it contradictory to interpret Goku's response to "Vegeta surpassing him" as a comment on the technique he learned succeeding where Goku failed. And it falls in line with how the peanut gallery reacted and how things seemed strength-wise these past three chapters.

[FishermanJohnWest]

<snip>

Yet, Vegeta didn't push a full power Moro back. Goku did.

Mind you, that image of Moro tossing Goku around happens as Goku's power begins failing him. And to say Vegeta was stronger against Moro's full strength still requires ignoring 18's and Gohan's comments on their fight intially.

As far as "Vegeta is stronger than Goku now" goes, at worst it's a contradiction, at best it's debatable. So feel free to debate it, but I wouldn't tout it as some absolute fact.

I don't find it contradictory to interpret Goku's response to "Vegeta surpassing him" as a comment on the technique he learned succeeding where Goku failed. And it falls in line with how the peanut gallery reacted and how things seemed strength-wise these past three chapters.

He did push back Moro



And Moro shows more sign of effect from Vegeta punch as he closes his eyes for a bit then Goku punch itself



And no, Moro tossing Goku is just shortly after he kicked his energy ball away and Elbowed him, he just got started so he wasn't fading yet






Why would Goku need another technique better then Vegeta ? Goku is interpreting it as merely power when piccolo talks to him about Vegeta growth, and focusing on his power and not his technique

[Dragon Wukong]

<snip>

Let me clarify, all Vegeta did to a full power Moro was make him slide back a bit with a full power punch as a direct hit. Moro also never felt the need to retreat from any of Vegeta's moves until he learned of the technique.

But even disregarding that, saying Vegeta was stronger than Goku still requires you ignore the difference between how the characters watching the battle react. So you can feel like Vegeta is stronger based on your interpretation of those events, but I wouldn't tout it as an absolute fact.

Anyhow yeah, I feel like Goku/Vegeta/Beerus are all close enough/on par with each other (via various means) to be considered "rivals" now. I really didn't want to get derailed by a debate on whether or not Vegeta is stronger than Goku now. (Which doesn't seem to be the case to me, but I guess is considered ambiguous enough in this thread.)

[FishermanJohnWest]

<snip>

Let me clarify, all Vegeta did to a full power Moro was make him slide back a bit with a full power punch as a direct hit. Moro also never felt the need to retreat from any of Vegeta's moves until he learned of the technique.

But even disregarding that, saying Vegeta was stronger than Goku still requires you ignore the difference between how the characters watching the battle react. So you can feel like Vegeta is stronger based on your interpretation of those events, but I wouldn't tout it as an absolute fact.

Anyhow yeah, I feel like Goku/Vegeta/Beerus are all close enough/on par with each other (via various means) to be considered "rivals" now.

Their are times when Moro barely got his head snapped back from Omen Goku, and even then when both of them got hit, Vegeta reacted far better as shown in the manga scans above.

Logically everyone should've surpassed Beerus a long time ago, but seeing how he is a moving goal post, I need to see what they plan to do with him next.

[Dragon Wukong]

Their are times when Moro barely got his head snapped back from Omen Goku, and even then when both of them got hit, Vegeta reacted far better as shown in the manga scans above.

Logically everyone should've surpassed Beerus a long time ago, but seeing how he is a moving goal post, I need to see what they plan to do with him next.

Beerus isn't really a moving goalpost in the manga. Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are implied to be relatively close in strength (See: fights against Black and Toppo), with each "boost" to Blue being a relatively minor improvement compared to the gap between SS3 and SSG.

[Miracles]

A simple story like Dragonball isn't trying to trick the audience. It's purpose is to keep it understandable.
It only gets complicated when fans try to give interpretations of what a statement meant. Or undermine dialogue with images.

Bottom line: Goku said he needs to surpass Vegeta.

Because Goku can't stay powered up in UI Sign, Vegeta has taken beatings from people more powerful than him several times before.

Look at it like this, did Trunks with Grade 3 really surpass Grade 2 Vegeta?

Vegeta has a stronger form of blue, is just as smart and has a dangerous new technique. Goku would burn Sign out.

Except your explanation is not the reason the story gave as to why Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.

A simple story like Dragonball isn't trying to trick the audience. It's purpose is to keep it understandable.
It only gets complicated when fans try to give interpretations of what a statement meant. Or undermine dialogue with images.

Bottom line: Goku said he needs to surpass Vegeta.

But the dialogue literally undermines Vegeta.

Bottom line: This is the audience reaction to Vegeta vs Moro (when Moro had his full power.)



Compare to the audience reaction to Goku vs Moro (again, after Moro started using his full power.)



So, either Goku's statement is contradicting these moments, or he isn't speaking literally in terms of power. Which given the nature of Vegeta's ability, is most likely the case.

Again, keep in mind Vegeta doesn't begin to do well against Moro at all until he's lost his strength. And the opposite is true for Moro against Goku.

None of those examples and dialogue change the narration that Goku has to surpass Vegeta again.
The conclusion was that Vegeta is above Goku. Regardless of what happened before.

[Dragon Wukong]

A simple story like Dragonball isn't trying to trick the audience. It's purpose is to keep it understandable.
It only gets complicated when fans try to give interpretations of what a statement meant. Or undermine dialogue with images.

Bottom line: Goku said he needs to surpass Vegeta.

But the dialogue literally undermines Vegeta.

Bottom line: This is the audience reaction to Vegeta vs Moro (when Moro had his full power.)



Compare to the audience reaction to Goku vs Moro (again, after Moro started using his full power.)



So, either Goku's statement is contradicting these moments, or he isn't speaking literally in terms of power. Which given the nature of Vegeta's ability, is most likely the case.

Again, keep in mind Vegeta doesn't begin to do well against Moro at all until he's lost his strength. And the opposite is true for Moro against Goku.

None of those examples and dialogue change the narration that Goku has to surpass Vegeta again.
The conclusion was that Vegeta is above Goku. Regardless of what happened before.

It contradicts the idea that Vegeta did better against a full power Moro than Goku did (and would therefore be outright stronger than him).

One possible conclusion is that Goku's idea of surpassing Vegeta isn't inherently tied to his strength but rather his technique. That conclusion doesn't conflict with the narration at the beginning of the chapter that suggests Vegeta's strength isn't all that great against a full power Moro compared to Goku's Ultra Instinct earlier.

[Hugo Boss]

I honestly don’t understand the difficulty in realizing that Vegeta surpassed Goku in sheer power right now.. It may be debatable that Goku is faster than him, that he moves better or something like that, but the point is really what the characters are saying, not what they can be saying. “Finest meal” doesn’t mean something so complicated and it’s so blatantly obvious at this point that I don’t believe it needs clarification.

It doesn’t matter if the audience reacted in awe during Goku’s fight, since Moro was playing around all the time. If Moro apparently wasn’t affected by Vegeta’s blows that much is probably because he doesn’t feel like hiding his true strength anymore. This is something that happened with Perfect Cell before, who despite having a clear advantage against Goku, deliberately decided to not use his full strength and lost some of his power during the process.

[Dragon Wukong]

I honestly don’t understand the difficulty in realizing that Vegeta surpassed Goku in sheer power right now.. It may be debatable that Goku is faster than him, that he moves better or something like that, but the point is really what the characters are saying, not what they can be saying. “Finest meal” doesn’t mean something so complicated.

It doesn’t matter if the audience reacted in awe during Goku’s fight, since Moro was playing around all the time. If Moro apparently wasn’t affected by Vegeta’s blows that much is probably because he doesn’t feel like hiding his true strength anymore.

Again, Moro never "ate" Goku after his post-UI training. So Moro saying "finest meal" doesn't mean Vegeta is stronger than Goku. It means he's stronger than anyone else Moro ate so far.

Moro was playing around all the time.

No? The events I've been referring to happen explicitly after Moro stops playing around and uses his true power. You're saying Moro powered up to his "full strength" against Goku and was still somehow playing around/holding back? Gohan is reacting to Moro being pushed back (at what was explicitly his full power) during the aura clash. Nothing about speed, or even technique. That was Goku having won in a bout of pure power. It just so happens Goku couldn't maintain it against Moro in the end.

[Hugo Boss]

Again, Moro never "ate" Goku after his post-UI training. So Moro saying "finest meal" doesn't mean Vegeta is stronger than Goku. It means he's stronger than anyone else Moro ate so far.

Moro was playing around all the time.

No? The events I've been referring to happen explicitly after Moro stops playing around and uses his true power. You're saying Moro powered up to his "full strength" against Goku and was still somehow playing around/holding back? Gohan is reacting to Moro being pushed back (at what was explicitly his full power) during the aura clash.

You are talking like Moro can’t just eat Goku’s energy, which is quite odd, since he can even grab Goku, let alone steal his energy.

It’s implied that Moro doesn’t use his full power against Goku when he discredits Goku’s full powered blows.

[Dragon Wukong]

You are talking like Moro can’t just eat Goku’s energy, which is quite odd, since he can even grab Goku, let alone steal his energy.

It’s implied that Moro doesn’t use his full power against Goku when he discredits Goku’s full powered blows.

Moro explains in that chapter that he doesn't absorb energy unless he's hungry, with the simultaneous effects of weakening his foes and making him stronger being a happy coincidence. To that end, by the point Moro tried to actually absorb Goku's energy when he felt overpowered, Goku dodged it.

And no, the dialogue with Merus says that at that point Goku is using Ultra Instinct by relying on pure strength, instead of relying on decisive blows as he did with Jiren. It's not Moro suddenly using less power for some random reason. It's Goku unable to use his power as effectively as he tries to force an end to the battle because his stamina and ability to maintain Ultra Instinct is running out.



And again, Goku managed to stand firm and push back Moro instead of being pushed back when he was using his full power in an aura clash. If your response to that is "well Moro probably wasn't using his full power," well I'm sorry but there isn't really anything that supports that.

[Koitsukai]

I wouldn't put too much weight on the finest meal ever comment, after all Moro wasn't able to absorb Goku and was about to "eat" Vegeta, therefore Omen Goku isn't even part of the equation. That comment would mean something if Moro had actually absorbed Goku, it only means this Vegeta>everybody absorbed by him before.

However, the chatter between Piccolo, Jaco and Goku convinces me that Vegeta is the strongest. Even though they might have been talking about getting the win and being the MPV, and not about raw strenght.

It has to be noted that, seeing how there are fair points from both sides and it is up for debate, it isn't crystal clear (as usual) and seems just another vague move from the staff. Perhaps the upcoming chapter will confirm it one way or the other

[Hugo Boss]

You seem to be getting the wrong idea. Moro never implies he can’t eat Goku’s energy or that he is excluding Goku’s energy from his observation. He even spells out to us that he approached Goku too cautiously (the point in which we should realize Moro was still not fighting seriously, despite all the show Goku did). And even makes a snarky comment about how shocked he is that Goku amassed such power.

[Dragon Wukong]

You seem to be getting the wrong idea. Moro never implies he can’t eat Goku’s energy or that he is excluding Goku’s energy from his observation. He even spells out to us that he approached Goku too cautiously (the point in which us should realize Moro was still not fighting seriously, despite all the show Goku did). And even makes a snarky comment about how shocked he is Goku amassed such power.

It's not about whether Moro can or can't eat Goku's energy. It's about the fact that every time he tried to Goku dodged or Moro was interrupted. It's disingenuous to include Goku post-training among the list of Moro's "meals" when he says "finest meal yet" when Moro failed to eat him. There's no telling if Moro would've said that statement to Vegeta had 17 and 18 not interrupted him before he took Goku's energy.

[Hugo Boss]

Moro failed to absorb Goku’s energy because he was using a level of power that Goku could react to. After he increases his power, Goku is easily caught. There is no reason to assume that he would fail no matter what he did. And he didn’t need to absorb Goku and Vegeta’s energy to remark their powerlevel, so I don’t see your point.

[Dragon Wukong]

Moro failed to absorb Goku’s energy because he was using a level of power that Goku could react to. After he increases his power, Goku is easily caught. There is no reason to assume that he would fail no matter what he did. And he didn’t need to absorb Goku and Vegeta’s energy to remark their powerlevel, so I don’t see your point.

Look. I'm not debating whether or not Moro could've absorbed Goku's energy at some point. Literally all I'm saying is that Moro referring to Vegeta as his "finest meal yet" can't and shouldn't be used to scale him to Goku post-training somehow, because Moro didn't absorb Goku's energy.

What's so hard to understand about that?