Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Dragon Wukong]

It can't be read that way at all. Goku made a blatant comparison to Vegeta. Not in the way; or how Vegeta dealt with Moro. You are trying to push a certain interpretation into the story that isn't there. Surpass means Vegeta in totality. Since Goku isn't going to go train afterwards and figure out a way how to deal with Moro better than Vegeta. The dialogue literally made no distinctions, that's not a feeling but a fact.

Piccolo says that Goku "one-upped him this time." Goku then responds that he'll surpass him again. The comparison between their strength you're talking about isn't there. It is possible to interpret that conversation as them discussing Vegeta's ability to handle the situation better than Goku via technique rather than strength, and if you disagree with that notion, I implore you to pull up some new page where Goku says "Yeah Vegeta is stronger than me", or just agree to disagree on this one.

This too isn't up for debate. Goku pushing Moro back in a Ki struggle, with Gohan noting so, does not mean it "effected" Moro.
Both those instances you are trying to compare do not show nor state Moro "effected" at all. Which are false equivalences.

If it isn't up for debate then explain this thread of people debating it. To what extent do you define an attack "affecting" Moro anyhow? Goku made him struggle. Goku made him bleed. Goku made him use his full power in a fight and pull out at least one new technique he hadn't used before. That's about all as much you can get of attacks "affecting" Moro without Goku outright defeating him or crippling him for his next opponent. Vegeta's initial attack against Moro is specifically noted to be ineffective damage-wise (little do we know each hit was draining his energy) by Gohan and 18.

Look. It's ambiguous. It's interpretable as one likes at the moment due to the differences in both dialogue and feats when discussing Vegeta's strength. And while you can argue which side that ambiguity lies on, you can't argue the ambiguity itself. Even others in this thread who are on the side of "Vegeta is stronger" have agreed on that point given what I've pointed out.

[Miracles]

It can't be read that way at all. Goku made a blatant comparison to Vegeta. Not in the way; or how Vegeta dealt with Moro. You are trying to push a certain interpretation into the story that isn't there. Surpass means Vegeta in totality. Since Goku isn't going to go train afterwards and figure out a way how to deal with Moro better than Vegeta. The dialogue literally made no distinctions, that's not a feeling but a fact.

Piccolo says that Goku "one-upped him this time." Goku then responds that he'll surpass him again. The comparison between their strength you're talking about isn't there. It is possible to interpret that conversation as them discussing Vegeta's ability to handle the situation better than Goku via technique rather than strength, and if you disagree with that notion, I implore you to pull up some new page where Goku says "Yeah Vegeta is stronger than me", or just agree to disagree on this one.

Except in Goku and Piccolo's conversation, Vegeta's power and tech is praised by Goku. The strength comparison is right there.

This too isn't up for debate. Goku pushing Moro back in a Ki struggle, with Gohan noting so, does not mean it "effected" Moro.
Both those instances you are trying to compare do not show nor state Moro "effected" at all. Which are false equivalences.


If it isn't up for debate then explain this thread of people debating it. To what extent do you define an attack "affecting" Moro anyhow? Goku made him struggle. Goku made him bleed. Goku made him use his full power in a fight and pull out at least one new technique he hadn't used before. That's about all as much you can get of attacks "affecting" Moro without Goku outright defeating him or crippling him for his next opponent. Vegeta's initial attack against Moro is specifically noted to be ineffective damage-wise (little do we know each hit was draining his energy) by Gohan and 18.

Look. It's ambiguous. It's interpretable as one likes at the moment due to the differences in both dialogue and feats when discussing Vegeta's strength. And while you can argue which side that ambiguity lies on, you can't argue the ambiguity itself. Even others in this thread who are on the side of "Vegeta is stronger" have agreed on that point given what I've pointed out.

If you noticed Goku's fight with Moro. Goku gave everything he had to his limit. Yet still questioned what Moro's body "was made out of." In other words, nothing Goku or Vegeta did to Moro had any "effect". No damage was done that could of brought them victory. Right after Goku's fight, Moro goes on to say he was "weak" and no "match." Same thing was stated about Vegeta's strength.

The reason why people stir up a debate, is a number of factors. They want to shill for a certain character, so they try to use ambiguity or lack understanding. However, the dialogue is clear, it defined Goku and Vegeta's strength feats as being "weak" and having no "effect" towards Moro. Yet the story concludes that Kakarot needs to surpass Vegeta again.

[Dragon Wukong]

Except in Goku and Piccolo's conversation, Vegeta's power and tech is praised by Goku. The strength comparison is right there.

As far strength goes, the only thing Goku says is "I didn't expect him to learn that move or get this strong" before Piccolo segues into the conversation about Vegeta's growth as a character. Then that conversation leads into the bit that I pointed out. At no point in the conversation is Vegeta's current level of strength directly compared to Goku's, though I can see why some people view this conversation as "proof" that Vegeta is stronger than Goku, it's not.

If you noticed Goku's fight with Moro. Goku gave everything he had to his limit. Yet still questioned what Moro's body "was made out of." In other words, nothing Goku or Vegeta did to Moro had any "effect". No damage was done that could of brought them victory. Right after Goku's fight, Moro goes on to say he was "weak" and no "match." Same thing was stated about Vegeta's strength.

The reason why people stir up a debate, is a number of factors. They want to shill for a certain character, so they try to use ambiguity or lack understanding. However, the dialogue is clear, it defined Goku and Vegeta's strength feats as being "weak" and having no "effect" towards Moro. Yet the story concludes that Kakarot needs to surpass Vegeta again.

I already addressed that point first point in an earlier post.

And no, the dialogue with Merus says that at that point Goku is using Ultra Instinct by relying on pure strength, instead of relying on decisive blows as he did with Jiren. It's not Moro suddenly using less power for some random reason. It's Goku unable to use his power as effectively as he tries to force an end to the battle because his stamina and ability to maintain Ultra Instinct is running out.



And again, Goku managed to stand firm and push back Moro instead of being pushed back when he was using his full power in an aura clash. If your response to that is "well Moro probably wasn't using his full power," well I'm sorry but there isn't really anything that supports that.

And dude, it's not cool to dismiss and invalidate legitimate arguments with "shilling for a character." I actually want Vegeta to be the one to defeat Moro, and get on even terms with Goku while he's in Ultra Instinct at some point, but the idea that Vegeta is currently stronger than Goku is contradicted by how effective each fighter was against Moro's full power (which actually defines Goku's feats through dialogue as at the very least "impressive" through the stands reactions, and Vegeta's feats as "weak".) The dialogue you seem to suggest is clear, isn't really clear in actuality, and in fact other dialogue contradicts that notion, as I've pointed out multiple times in this thread. So you can take either contradiction or ambiguity with those facts.

Or we can just agree to disagree on this one. Because I doubt I'm able to convince you otherwise, and there certainly isn't enough in chapter 61 to convince me otherwise.

[FishermanJohnWest]

snip

I noticed from the screenshots you posted, that Moro was clad in energy while fighting Goku unlike when he was fighting Vegeta. Can't be sure if that means anything, but probably worth mentioning when we're going to dissect the fights to that degree.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to how you want to take Moro's "finest meal" statement about Vegeta.

Look man, you can interpret the "finest meal yet" line as somehow saying Vegeta is stronger than Goku. But nothing he said or did tells me that Vegeta's hits hurt more or did more damage than Goku's (who again, he didn't eat post-training.)

Somehow? Didn’t Goku land full powered strikes on Moro’s body? What else does he need to have a grasp on Goku’s power?

Speaking of which, I think you guys are reading too much into that statement.

Goku was fast enough that Moro couldn't even feast on his energy. Keeping that in mind, the fact that Moro is confident in being able to make Vegeta his "finest meal" at all strikes me as odd.

Especially because Vegeta wouldn't be running on fumes like Goku, and wouldn't be losing power as fast as the latter did.
So even if Moro is stronger, how does he intend to actually feast on Vegeta's energy if he's stronger (read: faster) than Goku?

You mean his aura ? I don't see how that boosts Moro resistance when it's just his energy being shown on screen, many times in DB people get hit with their aura and nothing different happens

[FishermanJohnWest]

Vegeta make Moro close his eyes and take deep breaths from 1 blow, Goku however didn't do that. Also Vegeta when getting hit by Moro took it far better.

Regardless of how both of them approach the fight, whatever felt from that 1 punch was enough for him to classify Vegeta as his greatest meal

[FishermanJohnWest]

This discussion is a perfect example of why "feats" matter very, very little. Nobody can agree on whether these panels show Vegeta doing more damage or Goku doing more damage.

The dialogue, however, is fairly clear-cut about this. Both Moro and Goku support the notion that Vegeta is stronger right now - although I'd say it's probably only by an extremely slight margin.

Moro, Omen and Vegeta aren't that much difference from each other in power, they can still hurt each other etc

If putting it in numbers it's probably

Moro 100

Vegeta 90

Omen Goku 85

[The Undying]

Piccolo says that Goku "one-upped him this time." Goku then responds that he'll surpass him again. The comparison between their strength you're talking about isn't there. It is possible to interpret that conversation as them discussing Vegeta's ability to handle the situation better than Goku via technique rather than strength

To be clear, I can agree with this. My initial reading of that conversation aligned with Piccolo and Goku referring to Vegeta's overall performance against Moro rather than his raw power specifically. That's a fair assessment, and it's ambiguous enough that you could take those statements to mean either one of the interpretations argued for here.

However, it's the "You will make for my finest meal" bit that raises eyebrows. You can argue that Moro was just comparing Vegeta to his previous meals pre-invasion, but the fact that he only just now brings it up against Vegeta (after having fought Goku) makes me think of Moro's statement as a reference to his prospective meals rather than just any old energy snack; the latter is fairly unremarkable in a scenario where several characters easily meet that requirement.

Going further, it's a combination of all these statements leading people to the conclusion that Vegeta is stronger.

I'll definitely grant that the dialogue as it was presented in this chapter is hardly as explicit as some have been arguing. This isn't like when Shin flat-out drew a strength comparison between Vegetto and Beerus.

[DBZ Macky]

Moro, Omen and Vegeta aren't that much difference from each other in power, they can still hurt each other etc

If putting it in numbers it's probably

Moro 100
Vegeta 90
Omen Goku 85

Seems okay to me, and I guess I understand now where my view on this whole "Goku vs Vegeta" debate lies.

I actually think Goku, when we went all out, surpassed Moro briefly. This is supported by the whole Ki clash where Goku comes out on top, and before when Piccolo says "Goku is clearly faster than him (Moro)" when both of them are warming up.
The only reason Goku loses is because he can't maintain that power, or at least that's what's implied by the narrative.

Vegeta on the other hand is clearly weaker than Moro, and it's not even debatable. He has to rely on the Spirit Fission technique to weaken Moro, since its stated by Piccolo that the gap between them is large enough that regular training just won't cut it. Vegeta won because of his technique, and not because he's stronger than Goku, or at least that's what's implied by the narrative.

If I had to give numbers:

Omen Goku (Overclocked) - 14
Moro (Full Power) - 13
SSBE Vegeta (Post Training) - 12
...
Omen Goku (Initial) - 7
Moro (Initial) - 6.5
SSBE Vegeta (Pre-Training) - 6

Also, I'll say this once again - Moro was fully confident in defeating Vegeta and make him his best meal, while he couldn't even consume Goku's energy because Goku was too fast for him. If Goku wasn't running on fumes, Moro would have no chance of actually consuming his energy. Ergo, if Vegeta's stronger than Goku, then there's no way Moro would actually be able to make him his "finest meal", since Vegeta won't be losing power nearly as quickly as Goku was. Even if you want to argue Vegeta had a higher battle power, Goku was implied to be much faster than him.

Feel free to give them whatever numbers you feel like, but Goku would 100% win in an actual fight against Vegeta if he was able to maintain his power.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Goku never surpassed Moro briefly, as Moro said, he played it cautious against Goku until he noticed what Goku had to offer and beat him after.





Moro was barely taking damage from Goku despite all the blows he landed (which was thanks to his speed), and when he lost his trade mark speed, he just got stomped badly and Goku had to rely on more sheer power which Merus says he shouldn't do since it's not the UI way





Goku rely on more power once he speed goes





But even then, Goku flawed his powers and still couldn't take blows like Vegeta regardless, nor can he actually make Moro stop and take deep breaths with 1 blow





Vegeta has surpassed Goku, if he can handle Moro attacks better, and make Moro actually clinch in pain for a bit from 1 blow, while Omen can't do the same, then Vegeta is > Omen. And Goku wouldn't want to surpass Vegeta if was already ahead of him

[Dragon Wukong]

<snip>

Just to note, you can crop a lot of things or simply describe the points you wanna point out instead of effectively dumping a whole chapter in the thread. I've already read and re-read chapters 59-61 about 10 times over the past 48 hours while justifying my arguments, and they're all free on mangaplus and viz currently.

To that end, Moro saying he was needlessly cautious doesn't contradict that he was using his full power. It also doesn't contradict that Goku pushed Moro back and dealt plenty of effective blows on him, because again, Goku's power began failing him partway into chapter 60.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Moro considers all energy sources as meals, it was like that with Esca in Namek and it was like that with the Z Fighters on Earth. He saying that Vegeta would be his best meal is a testament that he has the greatest energy Moro has ever encountered. He's not talking about energies that he ate (because he didn't eat Vegeta's energy either), he's speaking in general. Btw, a good comparison is that while the first thing Moro praises in the fight against Goku is the Ultra Instinct's trademark speed, against Vegeta, after the very first punch Moro quickly praises his raw power, which is in line with the other dialogues that imply Vegeta's superiority in terms of strength.

The argument that Goku caused damage to Moro is also irrelevant because at the end of the fight he has no scratches, labeled Goku as a weakling and as someone who was not able to match him. Ultimately, Goku did no better than Vegeta.

[miguelnuva1]

Once again Trunks had more power than Cell and Vegeta and he was deemed inferior to both.

Goku kicked Vegeta's ass with Kaiokenx3 and still feels.he needs to surpass Vegeta.

Sign's raw power is higher but right now Vegeta would still win.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Once again Trunks had more power than Cell and Vegeta and he was deemed inferior to both.

Goku kicked Vegeta's ass with Kaiokenx3 and still feels.he needs to surpass Vegeta.

Sign's raw power is higher but right now Vegeta would still win.

Trunks was unable to hit any attack because of the loss of the speed of grade 3.

Goku needed to screw his whole body to overcome Vegeta's power and even then he was unable to defeat him, he needed Genki Dama.

The description of Vegeta's technique is very clear, it works against fighters who use the power of others, which is not the case with Goku. The only way he can overcome Goku is in terms of strength, because Spirit Fission doesn't work on him, so Goku's statement can only be related to strength, there is no other interpretation because Goku is clear and direct

[miguelnuva1]

Once again Trunks had more power than Cell and Vegeta and he was deemed inferior to both.

Goku kicked Vegeta's ass with Kaiokenx3 and still feels.he needs to surpass Vegeta.

Sign's raw power is higher but right now Vegeta would still win.

Trunks was unable to hit any attack because of the loss of the speed of grade 3.

Goku needed to screw his whole body to overcome Vegeta's power and even then he was unable to defeat him, he needed Genki Dama.

The description of Vegeta's technique is very clear, it works against fighters who use the power of others, which is not the case with Goku. The only way he can overcome Goku is in terms of strength, because Spirit Fission doesn't work on him, so Goku's statement can only be related to strength, there is no other interpretation because Goku is clear and direct

Spirit fission was draining the yardrats when Vegeta was practicing on them and Pybara used it on Vegeta.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So we do disregard the idea of Vegeta weakening Moro by the very first hit?

Since the dude went into the fight wanting to do exactly that. As Macky said, with me adding my own piece:



Moro (Full Power) - 11
Omen Goku (Power Stressed) - 10
Moro (after the first blow) - 9 (gradually decreases from now on)
SSBE Vegeta (Post Training) - 8
Moro (Initial) - 6
Omen Goku (Initial) - 5
SSBE Vegeta (Pre-Training) - 4

[FishermanJohnWest]

So we do disregard the idea of Vegeta weakening Moro by the very first hit?

Since the dude went into the fight wanting to do exactly that. As Macky said, with me adding my own piece:



Moro (Full Power) - 11
Omen Goku (Power Stressed) - 10
Moro (after the first blow) - 9 (gradually decreases from now on)
SSBE Vegeta (Post Training) - 8
Moro (Initial) - 6
Omen Goku (Initial) - 5
SSBE Vegeta (Pre-Training) - 4

-.-

So you think Moro got weakened by 2 on the first blow ? By that logic, Moro would be depleted in just 5 more punches.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So we do disregard the idea of Vegeta weakening Moro by the very first hit?

Since the dude went into the fight wanting to do exactly that. As Macky said, with me adding my own piece:



Moro (Full Power) - 11
Omen Goku (Power Stressed) - 10
Moro (after the first blow) - 9 (gradually decreases from now on)
SSBE Vegeta (Post Training) - 8
Moro (Initial) - 6
Omen Goku (Initial) - 5
SSBE Vegeta (Pre-Training) - 4

-.-

So you think Moro got weakened by 2 on the first blow ? By that logic, Moro would be depleted in just 5 more punches.

It may lack evidence, but what contradicts it?

Why would every punch and kick Vegeta pulls reduce the exact same amount of energy from him?

Either way, I'm waiting for more from the arc. Speaking about all this without the fights having concluded is a fallacy.

[Hugo Boss]

Spirit fission was draining the yardrats when Vegeta was practicing on them and Pybara used it on Vegeta.

I’ve seen this said before, but so far there is no evidence of what was going on in those instances. We don’t even know if that’s spirit fission or some other less advanced technique to balance his spirit. Right now, spirit fission is only confirmed to work with physical contact and it undoes fusions and absorptions. That’s what Goku said to Piccolo and Vegeta confirmed he was hearing that conversation. If he had anything to add to Goku’s explanation he would have done so.

[Jmass97]

Moro considers all energy sources as meals, it was like that with Esca in Namek and it was like that with the Z Fighters on Earth. He saying that Vegeta would be his best meal is a testament that he has the greatest energy Moro has ever encountered. He's not talking about energies that he ate (because he didn't eat Vegeta's energy either), he's speaking in general. Btw, a good comparison is that while the first thing Moro praises in the fight against Goku is the Ultra Instinct's trademark speed, against Vegeta, after the very first punch Moro quickly praises his raw power, which is in line with the other dialogues that imply Vegeta's superiority in terms of strength.

The argument that Goku caused damage to Moro is also irrelevant because at the end of the fight he has no scratches, labeled Goku as a weakling and as someone who was not able to match him. Ultimately, Goku did no better than Vegeta.

This. People are seriously in denial.

[miguelnuva1]

Did Vegeta even train to get stronger? Remember spirit control amplified what he already had, it didn't increase his power.