Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Did Vegeta even train to get stronger? Remember spirit control amplified what he already had, it didn't increase his power.

His power is noted to have increased by leaps and bounds in his normal form, which is probably a side-effect of honing his spirit. Sometimes, you don’t need to undergo a physical training to make progress. That’s how Dragon Ball seems to work since ki control was introduced.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Did Vegeta even train to get stronger? Remember spirit control amplified what he already had, it didn't increase his power.

Spoiler:

Basically, Vegeta fought his whole life having a terrible synchrony between body and spirit that never allowed him to use his power properly. Balancing body and spirit made him get rid of this nerf and naturally he got much stronger and that was before the 2 months of training to face Moro

[FiReFTW]

Theres some serious fanboys arguing here that their character must be stronger lol. Or they won't be able to sleep at night.

[VegettoEX]

Theres some serious fanboys arguing here that their character must be stronger lol. Or they won't be able to sleep at night.

These kinds of posts are unnecessary. If you are not interested in the discussion taking place, you are free to offer up new insights of your own, or simply not post in the thread at all.

[Miracles]

Except in Goku and Piccolo's conversation, Vegeta's power and tech is praised by Goku. The strength comparison is right there.

As far strength goes, the only thing Goku says is "I didn't expect him to learn that move or get this strong" before Piccolo segues into the conversation about Vegeta's growth as a character. Then that conversation leads into the bit that I pointed out. At no point in the conversation is Vegeta's current level of strength directly compared to Goku's, though I can see why some people view this conversation as "proof" that Vegeta is stronger than Goku, it's not.

Goku praising Vegeta's power and tech is within the the same context of the entire convo with Piccolo.
Concluding with Goku saying he has to surpass Vegeta.

If you noticed Goku's fight with Moro. Goku gave everything he had to his limit. Yet still questioned what Moro's body "was made out of." In other words, nothing Goku or Vegeta did to Moro had any "effect". No damage was done that could of brought them victory. Right after Goku's fight, Moro goes on to say he was "weak" and no "match." Same thing was stated about Vegeta's strength.

The reason why people stir up a debate, is a number of factors. They want to shill for a certain character, so they try to use ambiguity or lack understanding. However, the dialogue is clear, it defined Goku and Vegeta's strength feats as being "weak" and having no "effect" towards Moro. Yet the story concludes that Kakarot needs to surpass Vegeta again.

I already addressed that point first point in an earlier post.

And no, the dialogue with Merus says that at that point Goku is using Ultra Instinct by relying on pure strength, instead of relying on decisive blows as he did with Jiren. It's not Moro suddenly using less power for some random reason. It's Goku unable to use his power as effectively as he tries to force an end to the battle because his stamina and ability to maintain Ultra Instinct is running out.



And again, Goku managed to stand firm and push back Moro instead of being pushed back when he was using his full power in an aura clash. If your response to that is "well Moro probably wasn't using his full power," well I'm sorry but there isn't really anything that supports that.

And dude, it's not cool to dismiss and invalidate legitimate arguments with "shilling for a character." I actually want Vegeta to be the one to defeat Moro, and get on even terms with Goku while he's in Ultra Instinct at some point, but the idea that Vegeta is currently stronger than Goku is contradicted by how effective each fighter was against Moro's full power (which actually defines Goku's feats through dialogue as at the very least "impressive" through the stands reactions, and Vegeta's feats as "weak".) The dialogue you seem to suggest is clear, isn't really clear in actuality, and in fact other dialogue contradicts that notion, as I've pointed out multiple times in this thread. So you can take either contradiction or ambiguity with those facts.

Or we can just agree to disagree on this one. Because I doubt I'm able to convince you otherwise, and there certainly isn't enough in chapter 61 to convince me otherwise.

1. Your image shows Merus talking about Goku relying on pure strength when he was reverting to Blue.
That's when he reached his limit trying to damage Moro in UI and failed.
Not when he was in UI. You completely mixed up Merus's statement.

2. It's just a reality that people's bias get in the way of the story. They try to interpret the dialogue to their liking.

[Dragon Wukong]

1. Your image shows Merus talking about Goku relying on pure strength when he was reverting to Blue.
That's when he reached his limit trying to damage Moro in UI and failed.
Not when he was in UI. You completely mixed up Merus's statement.

2. It's just a reality that people's bias get in the way of the story. They try to interpret the dialogue to their liking.

At no point is it suggested that Goku is "reverting to Blue." It sounds like your bias could be getting in the way of the story, to be honest.

[Miracles]

1. Your image shows Merus talking about Goku relying on pure strength when he was reverting to Blue.
That's when he reached his limit trying to damage Moro in UI and failed.
Not when he was in UI. You completely mixed up Merus's statement.

2. It's just a reality that people's bias get in the way of the story. They try to interpret the dialogue to their liking.

At no point is it suggested that Goku is "reverting to Blue." It sounds like your bias could be getting in the way of the story, to be honest.

That wasn't the point and you know it. The fact is, Goku maxing out UI to it's limit couldn't damage Moro.
I merely pointed out we see some elements of Blue in his aura. This was after Moro stated Goku reached his limit.
The entire convo between Goku and Piccolo concluded with Goku saying he needs to surpass Vegeta.
These are Bottom line truths.

[omaro34]

Is Piccolo stronger than 17 now? He took a direct blast from Moro while he was holding Moro's legs and stood right back up, And is potentially still alive after the special beam cannon to the chest.

Wheras it took the androids one shot only

[ZombieVito]

How strong is MUI is suppose to be over Omen?

I never expected Omen to return so I never thought about this and I just put it on the ToP very close to MUI.

[Dragon Wukong]

That wasn't the point and you know it. The fact is, Goku maxing out UI to it's limit couldn't damage Moro.
I merely pointed out we see some elements of Blue in his aura. This was after Moro stated Goku reached his limit.
The entire convo between Goku and Piccolo concluded with Goku saying he needs to surpass Vegeta.
These are Bottom line truths.

It isn't suggested that Goku's "maxing out UI to it's limit." Just the opposite in fact, Merus' dialogue is implying that he's no longer able to use UI as effectively as he was doing up to this point. Keep in mind part of Ultra Instinct's ability isn't just strength, but effective attacks meant to deal as much damage with the power provided as possible. We see Ultra Instinct damage Moro. So to say that Goku actually wasn't doing anything to Moro, when chapters 59 and 60 are dedicated to them struggling against each other before Goku's power begins to fail him, is disingenuous. Secondly, that aura can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. It's more likely to just be Goku struggling to maintain his aura in general, rather than "bits of Blue" popping out. It's possible Toyotaro just used the "toothpaste globs" to signify the same bursts of power that SSB was prone to before it was mastered.

So, first "bottom line truth" isn't actually a "bottom line truth."

Secondly, while that conversation is concluded with Goku saying he needs to surpass Vegeta, I never contested that point? The only thing I've argued is that it's entirely possible (and within reason based on prior evidence) to interpret that conversation as Goku feeling he needs to surpass Vegeta in technique rather than strength. If he can't even maintain Ultra Instinct for a proper fight against Moro, why wouldn't he feel like he needs to train to surpass Vegeta? To imply instead that Vegeta's current power succeeds the strength we see Goku wield against Moro at his full power contradicts the views of everyone at the start of chapter 61, and Goku's performance at the beginning of chapter 60.

And that's a "bottom line truth."

So, to argue that it isn't even ambiguous in any capacity does actually make you seem pretty biased in this argument. Because you're not even considering the points that would make it seem as though Goku is stronger, the very points that make it ambiguous. If those points simply just don't matter to you, then the bias shows itself even more. Mind you I can see why some people may consider Vegeta stronger now, that's me taking the evidence provided to me to alter my viewpoint and perception, but it's not enough based on everything else to make me think it isn't at the very least ambiguous, and others who share your viewpoint can at least agree with me on that.

[DestructoDisc]

Is Piccolo stronger than 17 now? He took a direct blast from Moro while he was holding Moro's legs and stood right back up, And is potentially still alive after the special beam cannon to the chest.

Wheras it took the androids one shot only

Yes. The Saganbo fight also already made it clear that he's stronger than him in this arc.

Gohan > Piccolo > 17 >/= 18

[DBZ Macky]

How does it make any logical sense for Piccolo to be stronger than SS3 Goku?
Sure, Piccolo's been training, but that's true for Goku as well. If Piccolo is capable of getting stronger than ToP-era Super Saiyan 3 Goku just from training for a few years, he should've used the RoSaT a second time during the Cell Games or when Buu was a threat.

I don't have a vendetta against Piccolo, but him being any stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 actively messes with the original story.
At least for 17 we have the excuse of him having greater potential or something.

[Miracles]

That wasn't the point and you know it. The fact is, Goku maxing out UI to it's limit couldn't damage Moro.
I merely pointed out we see some elements of Blue in his aura. This was after Moro stated Goku reached his limit.
The entire convo between Goku and Piccolo concluded with Goku saying he needs to surpass Vegeta.
These are Bottom line truths.

It isn't suggested that Goku's "maxing out UI to it's limit." Just the opposite in fact, Merus' dialogue is implying that he's no longer able to use UI as effectively as he was doing up to this point. Keep in mind part of Ultra Instinct's ability isn't just strength, but effective attacks meant to deal as much damage with the power provided as possible. We see Ultra Instinct damage Moro. So to say that Goku actually wasn't doing anything to Moro, when chapters 59 and 60 are dedicated to them struggling against each other before Goku's power begins to fail him, is disingenuous. Secondly, that aura can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. It's more likely to just be Goku struggling to maintain his aura in general, rather than "bits of Blue" popping out. It's possible Toyotaro just used the "toothpaste globs" to signify the same bursts of power that SSB was prone to before it was mastered.

So, first "bottom line truth" isn't actually a "bottom line truth."

The dialogue stated through Moro that Goku reached his limit. Merus pointing out the fact that Goku can't make the most out of UI with sheer power has nothing to do with the fact that he was at his limit. You are again trying to conflate separate issues.

Secondly, while that conversation is concluded with Goku saying he needs to surpass Vegeta, I never contested that point? The only thing I've argued is that it's entirely possible (and within reason based on prior evidence) to interpret that conversation as Goku feeling he needs to surpass Vegeta in technique rather than strength. If he can't even maintain Ultra Instinct for a proper fight against Moro, why wouldn't he feel like he needs to train to surpass Vegeta? To imply instead that Vegeta's current power succeeds the strength we see Goku wield against Moro at his full power contradicts the views of everyone at the start of chapter 61, and Goku's performance at the beginning of chapter 60.

And that's a "bottom line truth."

So, to argue that it isn't even ambiguous in any capacity does actually make you seem pretty biased in this argument. Because you're not even considering the points that would make it seem as though Goku is stronger, the very points that make it ambiguous. If those points simply just don't matter to you, then the bias shows itself even more. Mind you I can see why some people may consider Vegeta stronger now, that's me taking the evidence provided to me to alter my viewpoint and perception, but it's not enough based on everything else to make me think it isn't at the very least ambiguous, and others who share your viewpoint can at least agree with me on that.

It's not ambiguous at all. Your reason for even thinking Goku talking about surpassing Vegeta in tech and not strength is invalid.
Since the tech doesn't work on Goku but only on those who absorb and fuse. You are putting your own thoughts into the story.

[dragonball0900]

Is Piccolo stronger than 17 now? He took a direct blast from Moro while he was holding Moro's legs and stood right back up, And is potentially still alive after the special beam cannon to the chest.

Wheras it took the androids one shot only

Yes. He is. This chapter again proves this, and there should be no doubt about it.

How does it make any logical sense for Piccolo to be stronger than SS3 Goku?
Sure, Piccolo's been training, but that's true for Goku as well. If Piccolo is capable of getting stronger than ToP-era Super Saiyan 3 Goku just from training for a few years, he should've used the RoSaT a second time during the Cell Games or when Buu was a threat.

I don't have a vendetta against Piccolo, but him being any stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 actively messes with the original story.
At least for 17 we have the excuse of him having greater potential or something.

Piccolo is known for his big gains. Remember the Android Saga? He went from being far weaker than Base Goku, to being close to SSJ level.

Besides, training gains have more to do with the plot, which is why he stayed irrelevant for so long between the Buu-ToP sagas. The plot required for Piccolo to surpass 17. Despite how nonsensical it seems to be, it's the truth. Remember that Goku said both Gohan and Piccolo got drastically stronger and he almost couldn't recognize them. Piccolo could be as strong as the writers want him to be, as long as he stays being weaker than the obvious people (Goku, Vegeta and Gohan).

Personally, I'm happy that Piccolo got stronger than both androids. Piccolo being only weaker than the saiyans but stronger than everyone else is how it always should have been.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Is Piccolo stronger than 17 now? He took a direct blast from Moro while he was holding Moro's legs and stood right back up, And is potentially still alive after the special beam cannon to the chest.

Wheras it took the androids one shot only

Moro says in the chapter that he is holding back and does not want to kill anyone because they are all meals for him.

Which, by the way, reinforces my previous argument that Moro sees all energy sources as meals, so if he claims that Vegeta will be his best meal after praising his power, then he is saying that Vegeta has the greatest energy of all who were present, again reinforcing that Vegeta overcame Goku.

And particularly, I don't think Piccolo is stronger than 17. Toyo has portrayed him as someone who is always with Gohan to do combo moves despite not being on the same level

[ZombieVito]

How does it make any logical sense for Piccolo to be stronger than SS3 Goku?
Sure, Piccolo's been training, but that's true for Goku as well. If Piccolo is capable of getting stronger than ToP-era Super Saiyan 3 Goku just from training for a few years, he should've used the RoSaT a second time during the Cell Games or when Buu was a threat.

I don't have a vendetta against Piccolo, but him being any stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 actively messes with the original story.
At least for 17 we have the excuse of him having greater potential or something.

Piccolo didn't have Ultimate Gohan to train in Z.

On his own, the best he could do in Super after years of training was surpass the Boo arc Super Saiyans 2 and those are ants to current base Goku. Then he trains for a day with Boo arc Ultimate Gohan and he almost catches up to the current base Sayans.

I can easily see him getting big gains for training hard with current Ultimate Gohan for 2 months. I personally don't think he has reached SS3 or SSG level yet but I can't see this Piccolo losing to Frost or SS Cabba. He might even take SS2 Caulifla down, who knows.

[Dragon Wukong]

The dialogue stated through Moro that Goku reached his limit. Merus pointing out the fact that Goku can't make the most out of UI with sheer power has nothing to do with the fact that he was at his limit. You are again trying to conflate separate issues.

They aren't separate issues, they're entirely dependent on each other. Goku couldn't make the most out of UI because he was trying to finish the fight with sheer power because he was at his limit.

It's not ambiguous at all. Your reason for even thinking Goku talking about surpassing Vegeta in tech and not strength is invalid.
Since the tech doesn't work on Goku but only on those who absorb and fuse. You are putting your own thoughts into the story.

Really? Am I now?

Exhibit A:



Aaaaaaand Exhibit B:



Hm. Sure looks like spirit fission can work on a lot more than just a fusion or absorption, doesn't it? But what do I know, maybe these pages don't actually exist. Anyhow, that ultimately doesn't matter in my argument anyways. Goku can't maintain Ultra Instinct very well right now. Vegeta's technique is what got closest to saving the day, and his Super Saiyan Blue got stronger. It's an entirely plausible interpretation that Goku won't consider himself as having "surpassed" Vegeta until he can finally use Ultra Instinct properly and not struggle to maintain it. After all, there's no point in Ultra Instinct Sign being stronger than Vegeta if he slips out of it like during the fight with Moro in the end.

I'm gonna be honest, it sounds a lot less like I'm putting my own thoughts into the story and more like you blatantly ignoring valid points to suit your narrative. Please, pull up the page where Vegeta says it doesn't work unless the opponent's power is absorbed/fused. Feel free to try and back up your words with dialogue or imagery to prove that I'm somehow just being biased with everything I say, and that the level of evidence to what you're proposing makes it true beyond a reasonable doubt.

How about you quit being so smug and dismissive about this topic when it's possible you're wrong. I'm not even saying it's impossible that I'm wrong, but it's awfully presumptuous to say what you're saying given only a single chapter, and when there's plenty of prior evidence to the contrary.

[Koitsukai]

17 beat up 7-3 (Moro), he was fighting Moro's real power not just his techniques, it depends on how strong Moro was when he let 7-3 grab him, I guess it happened sometime during those two months before the final invasion, because 7-3 should've ran out of Moro's juice.

So 17 has to be at least stronger than Moro from the 1st invasion.

[DBZ Macky]

Piccolo is known for his big gains. Remember the Android Saga? He went from being far weaker than Base Goku, to being close to SSJ level.

Even though that was a jarring jump, it still made logical sense.
Piccolo spent a lot of time training Gohan in the Saiyan arc, and after training on Kaio's planet he actually got strong enough to impress Nail (who was much stronger than Vegeta at that point). Even after fusing with Nail, it makes sense that perhaps he'd have more room to grow and increase his power.

But he's all but rendered useless from a brute strength standpoint by the time Cell reaches perfection. He doesn't use the RoSaT precisely because he's completely outclassed and can't go much stronger in just one year. Even after 7 years of training, he's still weaker than Shin, ergo, he's still weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan who'd not increased in power at all.

Piccolo jumping straight to a Super Saiyan 3's level after he'd already plateaued makes zero sense.

The plot required for Piccolo to surpass 17. Despite how nonsensical it seems to be, it's the truth.

Krillin pushed back SSB Goku's Kamehameha in the Anime. Despite how nonsensical it seems to be, it's the truth.
But still people try to make logical sense out of it, by arguing that Goku wasn't using his full power.

Remember that Goku said both Gohan and Piccolo got drastically stronger and he almost couldn't recognize them. Piccolo could be as strong as the writers want him to be, as long as he stays being weaker than the obvious people (Goku, Vegeta and Gohan).

Goku also says pretty much the same thing about Roshi in the Anime when they trade blows, and yet you won't see anyone arguing that Roshi is actually stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Personally, I'm happy that Piccolo got stronger than both androids. Piccolo being only weaker than the saiyans but stronger than everyone else is how it always should have been.

I wish for Piccolo to be strong as well, but the story should at least give me a reason for his power jump.
We got explanations for 17 and Freeza. Gohan's potential is outright stated to be much greater than Goku and Vegeta's, and it makes sense for his potential to be greater in DBS than back when he was barely an adult.

Piccolo didn't have Ultimate Gohan to train in Z.

On his own, the best he could do in Super after years of training was surpass the Boo arc Super Saiyans 2 and those are ants to current base Goku. Then he trains for a day with Boo arc Ultimate Gohan and he almost catches up to the current base Sayans.

I can easily see him getting big gains for training hard with current Ultimate Gohan for 2 months. I personally don't think he has reached SS3 or SSG level yet but I can't see this Piccolo losing to Frost or SS Cabba. He might even take SS2 Caulifla down, who knows.

Yep, this actually seems like the only reasonable explanation.

It's in line with Piccolo's jump in the Android arc as well, where he's on par with SS Goku and might've grown stronger if could train with, say, a hypothetical SS2 Goku.

But still, to think that Piccolo was just a good training partner away from surpassing Cell and Buu sounds crazy.

[dragonball0900]

Even though that was a jarring jump, it still made logical sense.
Piccolo spent a lot of time training Gohan in the Saiyan arc, and after training on Kaio's planet he actually got strong enough to impress Nail (who was much stronger than Vegeta at that point). Even after fusing with Nail, it makes sense that perhaps he'd have more room to grow and increase his power.

But he's all but rendered useless from a brute strength standpoint by the time Cell reaches perfection. He doesn't use the RoSaT precisely because he's completely outclassed and can't go much stronger in just one year. Even after 7 years of training, he's still weaker than Shin, ergo, he's still weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan who'd not increased in power at all.

Piccolo jumping straight to a Super Saiyan 3's level after he'd already plateaued makes zero sense.

Yeah, but that's because Toyotaro actually intended it to be that way. How strong a character is depends on plot.

Krillin pushed back SSB Goku's Kamehameha in the Anime. Despite how nonsensical it seems to be, it's the truth.
But still people try to make logical sense out of it, by arguing that Goku wasn't using his full power.

Actually, the writers already stated that Goku held back against Krillin just to test his courage. It doesn't mean Krillin can actually fight against SSB. That would be ridiculous.

Goku also says pretty much the same thing about Roshi in the Anime when they trade blows, and yet you won't see anyone arguing that Roshi is actually stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Actually, I did see many people arguing that he is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, believe it or not. And besides, that is the anime. In the anime the power scaling makes even less sense since is made by different writers in each episode. Toyotaro is one single man writing the entire manga directly based on stuff from Toriyama, so he is more coherent with power scaling.

I wish for Piccolo to be strong as well, but the story should at least give me a reason for his power jump.
We got explanations for 17 and Freeza. Gohan's potential is outright stated to be much greater than Goku and Vegeta's, and it makes sense for his potential to be greater in DBS than back when he was barely an adult.

When did we get explanations for 17? I don't think that's true. With Frieza, yes (because of him being a prodigy alien that doesn't train). But 17 never got any explanation whatsoever in both manga and anime about his insane gains. All he has is pure speculation from people who just give claims so that 17's power up makes some sense (even though it doesn't). He is that strong because the plot needed him to be. Just like how Piccolo is that strong in the Moro Saga because the plot needed him to be at that strength.