Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta's ki didn't increase what he had just got stronger.

If Vegeta’s ki didn’t increase, then explain why he was shocked. To put in perspective, it’s like Vegeta has been fighting with pretty heavy clothes all this time. His powerlevel naturally increases when he puts that weight off. That’s the same process of ki control, make a proper sync of body and spirit. When you don’t have that sync, your powerlevel is lower than it should be, like when Ginyu changed bodies with Goku.

[Dragon Wukong]

It's the hope that people understand, Dragonball is a story first. "Feats" are ever rarely used to power scale. It's the same in this instance. My friend, I don't mean to dismiss your arguments. I acknowledge that Goku pushed back Moro more than Vegeta. However, the narration still dictates that does not determine who is stronger between Goku and Vegeta. As the plot stated, Goku is still the one who needs to "surpass Vegeta again."That is a conclusive and clear claim from the intrigue itself.

Now notice that word "again" from Goku. In context, Goku and Vegeta are always trying to outdo each other in battle power. This has been their whole rivalry. Jaco even confirms that Goku is going to achieve supremacy over Vegeta again by training even with no "baddie butt to kick." So, to say Goku was talking about surpassing Vegeta in any other way isn't factual. Vegeta's technique was defined to work on those who rely on the power of others. Yeah, it didn't say that it only works on those types. However, that's all it claimed the technique can do right now. So, to assume Goku was talking about surpassing a technique, the story routinely beat over our heads, for an absorber like Moro, is nothing more than guess work. There is no context to Vegeta's training showing that it works on individuals who don't absorb. All we see is the end results, not knowing the steps taken to get to that point. Goku said he needs to surpass the individual "again." Not the technique of that person, not the way that man beat Moro but the Saiyan himself, Vegeta.

Goku's push back of Moro and making him bleed a little after multiple hits was deemed "weak" and "unable to match" Moro. With UI omen, With UI omen not utilized at it's fullest and no UI Omen. It was all in vain, according to the dialogue. Since the narration authorized it to be so. The point, the conclusive words explain the results of the action. Depicting a guide for the audience, directing us to the path of the battles. Neither led us to Goku being greater than Vegeta but they led us to Vegeta being greater than Goku.

Sorry for the rant...

Look, I get that the narration seems to push that view somewhat. But my argument has been (and at this point cannot be wavered) that the beginning of that same chapter goes against that same narration through the same narration. Feats aren't the only thing that matter, yes I agree. But the WORDS of the AUDIENCE watching Moro's fight against Goku and Vegeta give contradictory ideas over how strong Goku was compared to Vegeta. There is a level of AMBIGUITY in the fact that Vegeta's initial blows against Moro are immediately dismissed by Gohan and 18. Yes, Moro ultimately defeated Goku as well, and had begun deeming his hits as weak, but that was after Goku's Ultra Instinct had begun failing to be used to its full prowess.

Goku didn't just push Moro back at the start of chapter 60, the audience reacted to Goku pushing back Moro via praise.



Not only that, but you have Merus and Whis discussing together the implications of whether or not Goku can maintain this power against Moro, not whether it's effective or not against Moro at this point. The narrative throughout chapter 60 was that Goku's attacks were effective against Moro, but this level of power couldn't be maintained in Ultra Instinct effectively. Whether it was "ultimately in vain" (which, all dialogue in that chapter seems to suggest wasn't actually the case. Goku's effort was a valiant one against Moro's power at the very least initially, and ultimately made the Moro struggle, which is something pushed forth by the NARRATIVE of that chapter, not just the feats.)

To that end, the story has to be taken through all its parts. You cannot say there is a lack of ambiguity over whether or not Vegeta has become outright stronger than Goku without taking into account the entirety of the chapter immediately before it, as well as the start of that same chapter. YES Goku comments on Vegeta's strength. YES there's the "finest meal" comment. And YES there's also the "I'll surpass him again" comment. But taking everything else into consideration the narrative contradicts itself on this. So, is the narrative actually contradicting itself on this? Or can we presume there's another way to interpret those comments? If there isn't, then we have to accept that there's a contradiction, of which I choose to believe there isn't necessarily.

I believe in reading this comic as a story. Which is why I wouldn't be discussing the feats that I feel contradict your notion unless the dialogue backs those feats up. And the thing is? It does.

[DBZ Macky]

He actually was taking his energy

After he was already completely spent and reverted to his base? Yeah, he was.

Which (Goku overpowering Moro in their energy clash) doesn't mean anything since Moro was playing it safe with Goku and was cautious with him

The fact that he even tried to play it safe against Goku implies that the gap between Moro and Goku was close. Contrast this with his fight against Vegeta where he commends Vegeta for getting so strong, but seems almost annoyed/disappointed by his persistence.

That doesn't mean anything considering Goku hit him multiple times while Vegeta hit him once, pointless comparison, espically seeing how Moro was hurt more from Vegeta punch and reacted to that more in comparison to Goku himself, and goes further to say cause of that 1 punch, Vegeta will make the best meal

If I punch a guy and he closes his eyes, and if I punch another guy and he starts coughing blood, who do you think got more hurt?
Are we also conveniently going to ignore everyone else's reaction to this impressive punch you're speaking of?



About Goku delivering multiple attacks, well Vegeta does that here as well, and you can see how well it goes.

Before he ran out of fumes, he was unable to do anything to Moro, barely able to do damage despite hitting him multiple times, he stood no chance, and once his speed went, he got stomped power wise.

Yeah, that's because Moro ended up being stronger than Goku and Merus expected. The gap between them was small enough that either of them couldn't get a decisive win before Goku got severely weakened.

Doesn't mean anything when Moro, Goku and Piccolo say Vegeta > Goku

Piccolo comments on Vegeta's growth as a person for almost an entire page, but not once does anyone say that he's stronger than Goku.
Goku just says he'll surpass Vegeta again after Vegeta learns a technique that Goku couldn't.

Moro says Vegeta's powered up greatly, but he's still no match for him. Whereas he actually had to be cautious, but not too cautious because Goku's deteriorating stamina would pretty much defeat himself before Moro does.

That (Moro stating that he would devour Vegeta's energy, implying he isn't fast enough to stop that from happening) doesn't imply anything, Moro says he is going to devour everyone energy.

It's simply an extrapolation.
If Vegeta > Goku, then the fight between Vegeta and Moro would be a lot closer, except Vegeta wouldn't be losing power like Goku did.
Moro couldn't even get a hold of Goku's energy, yet he can easily grab Vegeta's punch and push him back.
Vegeta at full power is shown to be clearly weaker than Moro, while Goku at full power is shown to be clearly faster than him.

Yet he got stronger when honing his spirit
Vegeta was smart for relying on spirit fission rather then duke it out with Moro seeing how power wise he was below him anyways

Of course Vegeta got stronger when honing his spirit, it's shown even when he defeats Yuzun on Yardrat, and hammered home again and again, and yet his ace in the hole was the Spirit Fission Technique.
While Goku's ace in the hole was his raw strength/speed with his Ultra Instinct form.

The whole narrative is trying to make the point that sometimes technique trumps raw power. Vegeta getting both stronger than Goku and learning the Spirit Fission technique might not defeat Moro, but it sure defeats the entire meaning of Vegeta training on Yardrat.
At that point, you might as well really believe Vegeta when he says Goku's just a peasant compared to Vegeta-Sama.

And although Goku's performance against Moro looks better, it is said several times in the chapter that Vegeta's strength surpasses that of Goku.
...
Both the themes of Spirit Fission and Vegeta's strength have been misunderstood because of visual feats x What the narrative wants to tell.

It'd be pretty simple if Vegeta's strength surpassing Goku was actually stated several times. Yet the best we get is Moro's vague "best meal" statement.

Neither the themes of the story, nor the visual feats, nor the narrative actually imply that Vegeta's straight up stronger than Goku. In fact, wouldn't you say that the theme of the story suggests that Vegeta almost pulled a W because he relied on technique unlike Goku who failed because he relied too much on brute strength?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Another thing to bear in mind is that the visuals can be and often are more of a storytelling medium as dialogue itself.

We can get a good grasp of character thoughts and development through their movements and expressions, with this form of subtler storytelling often being applauded and encouraged if one can still get the audience to notice it.

And with Toyotaro being an artist first and foremost, his art is just as if not more important in telling the story.

=

People separate narrative and visuals, when the 2 are always intertwined.

In this case, feats matter because the artist is telling the story of how strong everyone is through their primary storytelling medium.

[The Undying]

The fact that he even tried to play it safe against Goku implies that the gap between Moro and Goku was close.

That would be ignoring the part where Moro straight-up says he was wrong for approaching him cautiously and then mocks Goku's power, though.

Anyone claiming there's a discrepancy between visuals and dialogue often conveniently forget that those statements (especially Moro's) serve to elaborate why these events happen in the manner they do. This is why feats are inherently unreliable; dialogue, and only dialogue, can spell out exactly how the story and author portray characters in relation to each other. When power scaling is the name of the game, it doesn't get any clearer than the words on the page.

It just feels like way too many people in this thread are severely overcomplicating the narrative. Moro held back during his fight with Goku and admitted as much. None of the other characters were aware of that.

[DBZ Macky]

That would be ignoring the part where Moro straight-up says he was wrong for approaching him cautiously and then mocks Goku's power, though.

The exact quotes being "perhaps I was too cautious" and "If this is truly the extent of your power... then I will not fall to you" according to cook's translation. At least to me, the implication seems to be that Goku just wasn't strong enough to actually land a decisive blow and finish Moro off. It's directly stated in chapter 59 that Moro had been waiting for Goku's inevitable decline in power, and that's after Moro powers up even further. Whether slightly weaker or stronger, Goku is at least very close to Moro's level.

feats are inherently unreliable; dialogue, and only dialogue, can spell out exactly how the story and author portray characters in relation to each other. When power scaling is the name of the game, it doesn't get any clearer than the words on the page.

Are we throwing all forms of subtlety out of the window then? Do we really need Piccolo stating obvious stuff like he's Speedwagon form Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, or Brock from the Pokemon Anime? Isn't the motto of good storytelling "show not tell"?
The Manga does seem to be more consistent compared to the Anime which has to extend everything to twenty minutes.

You can't disregard an entire chapter packed with action, and give more weight to a throwaway line.

[Dragon Wukong]

The exact quotes being "perhaps I was too cautious" and "If this is truly the extent of your power... then I will not fall to you" according to cook's translation. At least to me, the implication seems to be that Goku just wasn't strong enough to actually land a decisive blow and finish Moro off. It's directly stated in chapter 59 that Moro had been waiting for Goku's inevitable decline in power, and that's after Moro powers up even further. Whether slightly weaker or stronger, Goku is at least very close to Moro's level.

You can't disregard an entire chapter packed with action, and give more weight to a throwaway line.

Exactly this.

[FishermanJohnWest]

After he was already completely spent and reverted to his base? Yeah, he was.

Which doesn't matter cause he was still taking his energy. When he takes his energy doesn't mean anything, as long as he gets it in the end, just how he absorbed Goku and Vegeta on namek



And Moro says this



Moro taking it when they are defeated doesn't disprove anything

The fact that he even tried to play it safe against Goku implies that the gap between Moro and Goku was close. Contrast this with his fight against Vegeta where he commends Vegeta for getting so strong, but seems almost annoyed/disappointed by his persistence.

Gaps where always close but that mean that Goku was as strong or stronger if Moro feels his power ain't cutting it. And Moro reactions was better then Goku, unlike Goku who he mocked and belittled the entire time.

If I punch a guy and he closes his eyes, and if I punch another guy and he starts coughing blood, who do you think got more hurt?

Your missing a few details, try punching them multiple times over in a back and forward fight compared hitting a person once which is what the difference with Goku and Vegeta efforts against Moro. Again it's a pointless comparison cause of that.

Are we also conveniently going to ignore everyone else's reaction to this impressive punch you're speaking of?

What about it ? Goku attacks barely did anything and Moro mocked him for it, Vegeta punched him once and they reacted like that despite Moro complements Vegeta twice cause of his assault






Not to mention Vegeta handles Moro attack far better

About Goku delivering multiple attacks, well Vegeta does that here as well, and you can see how well it goes.

Yet as shown in the image above, Moro is more impressed by Vegeta then Goku, and goes further to comment on Vegeta power that he will make his finest meal. So that's still in Vegeta favor

Yeah, that's because Moro ended up being stronger than Goku and Merus expected. The gap between them was small enough that either of them couldn't get a decisive win before Goku got severely weakened.

Moro being stronger then what they expected was a given when Goku didn't stick to the plan which was the beginning of chapter 60 so that's not an excuse. But Moro won based on performance as he played it cautious with Goku and Goku couldn't do much to begin with, nor does this disprove anything with Vegeta cause once again, they say he is stronger

Piccolo comments on Vegeta's growth as a person for almost an entire page, but not once does anyone say that he's stronger than Goku.
Goku just says he'll surpass Vegeta again after Vegeta learns a technique that Goku couldn't.

Your just cherry picking what you want to hear, Goku was surprised about Vegeta power and technique when he misinterpret Piccolo talk about growth



And then Piccolo goes on the talk about power when he said Vegeta on up Goku



Goku said nothing about learning a new technique, he said he wants to surpass him, in fact to add the cherry on top, Goku says I'LL SURPASS HIM AGAIN (pay attention to the word AGAIN) cause I don't remember Goku having a technique in the manga besides UI that placed him above Vegeta. So theirs that

Moro says Vegeta's powered up greatly, but he's still no match for him. Whereas he actually had to be cautious, but not too cautious because Goku's deteriorating stamina would pretty much defeat himself before Moro does.

Him being cautious doesn't mean Goku was stronger, he wanted to see what Goku had to offer as shown in chapter 59, but once he went FP and hit Moro with everything, he mocks Goku for his power and says he will never be able to beat him.

And as I said on top, your logic is flawed cause you are trying to focus on Goku performance when fighting a power to power battle when Vegeta never did that from the get go. Vegeta doesn't need to fight Moro the same way or better power to power if his aim is to get the job done and return all the energy to the universe, statement trumps Vegeta lack of a fight.

It's simply an extrapolation.
If Vegeta > Goku, then the fight between Vegeta and Moro would be a lot closer, except Vegeta wouldn't be losing power like Goku did.
Moro couldn't even get a hold of Goku's energy, yet he can easily grab Vegeta's punch and push him back.
Vegeta at full power is shown to be clearly weaker than Moro, while Goku at full power is shown to be clearly faster than him.

Your expectations isn't evidence, it's merely what you would expect Vegeta to do, why would Vegeta try to fight head to head with Moro ? So he can prove your expectations are correct ? or your lack of belief ? That's simply not a good reason, by that logic, anyone who doesn't fight kaioken x 20 Goku isn't kaioken x 20 level yet scaling or statements will show characters are stronger. Also you lied about Moro never grabbing Goku he actually grabbed Goku and slammed him unto the ground many times, he also kneed him and kicked him away many times.





And Moro is going to absorb the energy when they are defeated



He is also doing the same thing by finishing off everyone in chapter 62 and leaving them alive to absorb their energy, despite the power differences.

Of course Vegeta got stronger when honing his spirit, it's shown even when he defeats Yuzun on Yardrat, and hammered home again and again, and yet his ace in the hole was the Spirit Fission Technique.
While Goku's ace in the hole was his raw strength/speed with his Ultra Instinct form

The whole narrative is trying to make the point that sometimes technique trumps raw power. Vegeta getting both stronger than Goku and learning the Spirit Fission technique might not defeat Moro, but it sure defeats the entire meaning of Vegeta training on Yardrat.
At that point, you might as well really believe Vegeta when he says Goku's just a peasant compared to Vegeta-Sama..

That's not evidence, and Vegeta power was enough for Moro to sense and be amazed with at start when he fought Yuzan, commenting he will raise his power in to his limits as well cause of that, meaning Moro motivation was Vegeta power increase from spirit training. So again, your point isn't disproving anything

[FishermanJohnWest]

It's silly to rely on Goku performance as evidence for why he is > Vegeta despite Vegeta never trying to fight a power to power battle and went straight into using his technique. It's also biased when you choose to ignore Moro, Piccolo and Goku words just cause you favor feats and nothing more. Specifically when Goku is out here saying he got surpassed and he will surpass Vegeta AGAIN (hence the word again), yet without UI, Vegeta was > Goku and had no technique.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It'd be pretty simple if Vegeta's strength surpassing Goku was actually stated several times. Yet the best we get is Moro's vague "best meal" statement.

Neither the themes of the story, nor the visual feats, nor the narrative actually imply that Vegeta's straight up stronger than Goku. In fact, wouldn't you say that the theme of the story suggests that Vegeta almost pulled a W because he relied on technique unlike Goku who failed because he relied too much on brute strength?

But we have a direct statement from Goku that he would need to overcome Vegeta again. And other statements like the "best meal" and Piccolo's reinforce this. DBS is generally super vague when it comes to power comparisons between characters, but Toyo has given several here. Goku's visual feats do not have the same weight here, because in the same chapter in which Goku makes Moro bleed, we have the narrative itself saying that he was not able to match Moro and was seen as a weakling. The narrative tells that Goku's efforts in the end were futile and that he was never able to really do any permanent damage to Moro, in addition to the goat being cautious the entire fight

And the theme you said is a possible interpretation, but it is not what the story emphasizes as the reason why Vegeta fought better than Goku. Throughout the chapter both his strength and technique are praised, it is the combination of these two things

[The Undying]

At least to me, the implication seems to be that Goku just wasn't strong enough to actually land a decisive blow and finish Moro off.

The implication is that Moro was more concerned about Goku's power than he should have been, hence approaching him too cautiously. It's an important line because it explains that Goku's supposed overpowering of Moro during their clash of auras wasn't actually overpowering him at all -- Moro simply misjudged Goku's power from the start and played their fight safer than he ever needed to. That's all there is to it.

Contrast this with his reaction to Vegeta's punch, where he not only praises Vegeta's strength but openly calls him his would-be finest meal yet.

The only reasonable counterpoint I can see is appealing to verbal sophistry by arguing that Moro didn't really mean what the simplest (and contextually appropriate) interpretation would take him to mean. Again, the dialogue isn't so explicit that this is a closed case, but I don't see a whole lot of readers naturally coming to that conclusion.

Isn't the motto of good storytelling "show not tell"?

Aside from the fact that there's no such thing as a "motto" for good storytelling, you're conflating two completely different things.

You can write a bad story with excessive exposition and also make that story clear specifically because its exposition. That's actually the reason it's such a common complaint. "Show don't tell" was invented as a modern critique of storytelling methods that relied on over-explaining themes, plot events, and concepts that could have been equally demonstrated by those events themselves, but it didn't make any argument about rejecting those explanations outright.

Piccolo's entire spiel about Vegeta's growth as a character is a perfect example of this. The reader could easily have inferred all this from Vegeta's battle with Moro, but would still have to accept Piccolo's needless exposition as an extension of the narrative. Same thing with power scaling here; we're not talking about whether the story is good in this discussion, we're talking about what the story is trying to convey. In that regard, it doesn't get any clearer than written words.

You can't disregard an entire chapter packed with action, and give more weight to a throwaway line.

You absolutely can. Even in the original series, a throwaway line about characters secretly holding back was all it took to invalidate entire chapters of action.

[TheSaiyanGod]

According to the new chapter, Vegeta must inflict damage on the enemy for the technique to work

Spoiler:

Which means that Vegeta was not actually using Spirit Fission on the little Yardratians on the pages that were posted here. In them, Vegeta apparently uses the new technique from a distance, but it was clear from this chapter that Vegeta needs to damage his opponent for it to work. And this maintains Spirit Fission as a technique that works against fusion or absorptions, as described in the last chapter. ]

Therefore, it could not be used in Goku and this returns to the subject already discussed extensively here which is the fact that Goku's statement is not related to the new technique

[Dragon Wukong]

According to the new chapter, Vegeta must inflict damage on the enemy for the technique to work

Spoiler:

Which means that Vegeta was not actually using Spirit Fission on the little Yardratians on the pages that were posted here. In them, Vegeta apparently uses the new technique from a distance, but it was clear from this chapter that Vegeta needs to damage his opponent for it to work. And this maintains Spirit Fission as a technique that works against fusion or absorptions, as described in the last chapter. ]

Therefore, it could not be used in Goku and this returns to the subject already discussed extensively here which is the fact that Goku's statement is not related to the new technique

To be fair, it's entirely possible that it can also be done via ki blasts. "Inflict damage" isn't a very specific statement. It was still at the very least part of Vegeta's training for the technique, which still suggests that it can affect people beyond fusion or absorption.

Anyhow, if you read the entirety of my statements you'd know I've discussed the interpretation of Goku's statement possibly referring to either Vegeta's ability to handle the opponent via his technique better than Goku was able to, "surpassing" him in that sense, or referring to Goku's inability to maintain Ultra Instinct Sign in a drawn out fight.

[Xeno Goku Black]

So Moro's current strength is just Moro + Seven Three? That's what the first page seems to suggest. Seven Three did really seem all that powerful normally for Moro to receive such a significant boost.

He's pretty OP though. Regeneration, Fusion doesn't work against him, no Time Limit, has Vegeta's abilities etc.

Still nothing to suggest he's on Jiren or Broly's level though.

[TheSaiyanGod]

To be fair, it's entirely possible that it can also be done via ki blasts. "Inflict damage" isn't a very specific statement. It was still at the very least part of Vegeta's training for the technique, which still suggests that it can affect people beyond fusion or absorption.

The only argument used to claim that the technique works on any character were the pages on which Vegeta trained with Hatska and Pybara. However, the current chapter does not open space for this type of interpretation because it was clear that Vegeta needs physical contact to be able to use Spirit Fission in Moro, otherwise he would not even need to engage in direct combat. As I have been saying, these pages of Vegeta training in Yardrat should not be used as absolute proofs because we have no context for them and they were used more to tease the new technique than to show it working.

You can argue that it is not said that the technique works only against fusions / absorptions, but that was the description of the technique. If anything, for this possibility to be considered the manga needs to show the opposite

Anyhow, if you read the entirety of my statements you'd know I've discussed the interpretation of Goku's statement possibly referring to either Vegeta's ability to handle the opponent via his technique better than Goku was able to, "surpassing" him in that sense, or referring to Goku's inability to maintain Ultra Instinct Sign in a drawn out fight.

But none of these interpretations are addressed in the narrative. To assume that Goku only admitted inferiority because of the weakness of the Ultra Instinct is a totally personal interpretation and the story gives no indication that this was the case. To say that Goku was referring to Vegeta's technique is also not plausible because there is nothing to be overcome "again" if that were the case. Would he train more (as Jaco implies) to perform better against Moro next time? There would be no next time. The rivalry between Goku and Vegeta has always been built on strength, with the two always trying to be ahead of each other.

That's why Goku says he will overcome Vegeta "again", because he has overcome before.

[The Undying]

You can argue that it is not said that the technique works only against fusions / absorptions, but that was the description of the technique.

There's that, and Piccolo also said that Moro having the ability is a problem only insofar as Goku and Vegeta can't use fusion techniques now. Nobody implied it was a threat other than rendering those moves useless.

It's extremely doubtful that Forced Spirit Fission is effective against anything that doesn't make use of other souls, like merging or absorption. It's basically just Dragon Ball's answer to exorcism.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Something else, has Moro showcased anything that make you believe that his 7-Moro-3 state is stronger than his Prime.

It already made little sense to grow stronger with 7-3 added to his (at least half) power stored in the Android.

Cause he never gave 7-3 more power than he (Moro) could use at any given time.

So Elder Moro + ambiguous power stored in 7-3 + 7-3 (at most Blue tier) > Prime Moro?

His statement will probably remain as ambiguous.

[Miracles]

It's the hope that people understand, Dragonball is a story first. "Feats" are ever rarely used to power scale. It's the same in this instance. My friend, I don't mean to dismiss your arguments. I acknowledge that Goku pushed back Moro more than Vegeta. However, the narration still dictates that does not determine who is stronger between Goku and Vegeta. As the plot stated, Goku is still the one who needs to "surpass Vegeta again."That is a conclusive and clear claim from the intrigue itself.

Now notice that word "again" from Goku. In context, Goku and Vegeta are always trying to outdo each other in battle power. This has been their whole rivalry. Jaco even confirms that Goku is going to achieve supremacy over Vegeta again by training even with no "baddie butt to kick." So, to say Goku was talking about surpassing Vegeta in any other way isn't factual. Vegeta's technique was defined to work on those who rely on the power of others. Yeah, it didn't say that it only works on those types. However, that's all it claimed the technique can do right now. So, to assume Goku was talking about surpassing a technique, the story routinely beat over our heads, for an absorber like Moro, is nothing more than guess work. There is no context to Vegeta's training showing that it works on individuals who don't absorb. All we see is the end results, not knowing the steps taken to get to that point. Goku said he needs to surpass the individual "again." Not the technique of that person, not the way that man beat Moro but the Saiyan himself, Vegeta.

Goku's push back of Moro and making him bleed a little after multiple hits was deemed "weak" and "unable to match" Moro. With UI omen, With UI omen not utilized at it's fullest and no UI Omen. It was all in vain, according to the dialogue. Since the narration authorized it to be so. The point, the conclusive words explain the results of the action. Depicting a guide for the audience, directing us to the path of the battles. Neither led us to Goku being greater than Vegeta but they led us to Vegeta being greater than Goku.

Sorry for the rant...

Look, I get that the narration seems to push that view somewhat. But my argument has been (and at this point cannot be wavered) that the beginning of that same chapter goes against that same narration through the same narration. Feats aren't the only thing that matter, yes I agree. But the WORDS of the AUDIENCE watching Moro's fight against Goku and Vegeta give contradictory ideas over how strong Goku was compared to Vegeta. There is a level of AMBIGUITY in the fact that Vegeta's initial blows against Moro are immediately dismissed by Gohan and 18. Yes, Moro ultimately defeated Goku as well, and had begun deeming his hits as weak, but that was after Goku's Ultra Instinct had begun failing to be used to its full prowess.

Goku didn't just push Moro back at the start of chapter 60, the audience reacted to Goku pushing back Moro via praise.



Not only that, but you have Merus and Whis discussing together the implications of whether or not Goku can maintain this power against Moro, not whether it's effective or not against Moro at this point. The narrative throughout chapter 60 was that Goku's attacks were effective against Moro, but this level of power couldn't be maintained in Ultra Instinct effectively. Whether it was "ultimately in vain" (which, all dialogue in that chapter seems to suggest wasn't actually the case. Goku's effort was a valiant one against Moro's power at the very least initially, and ultimately made the Moro struggle, which is something pushed forth by the NARRATIVE of that chapter, not just the feats.)

To that end, the story has to be taken through all its parts. You cannot say there is a lack of ambiguity over whether or not Vegeta has become outright stronger than Goku without taking into account the entirety of the chapter immediately before it, as well as the start of that same chapter. YES Goku comments on Vegeta's strength. YES there's the "finest meal" comment. And YES there's also the "I'll surpass him again" comment. But taking everything else into consideration the narrative contradicts itself on this. So, is the narrative actually contradicting itself on this? Or can we presume there's another way to interpret those comments? If there isn't, then we have to accept that there's a contradiction, of which I choose to believe there isn't necessarily.

I believe in reading this comic as a story. Which is why I wouldn't be discussing the feats that I feel contradict your notion unless the dialogue backs those feats up. And the thing is? It does.

Anyone can say with confidence that Vegeta is stronger than Goku unequivocally. Since it is outright stated that Goku needs to surpass Vegeta. There is no room for interpretation or contradiction, since the dialogue leaves none. Even the images you claim support your case, like Gohan applauding Goku for pushing Moro back, or Merus and Whis convo about UI omen, in no way describes those attacks greater than Vegeta's. You are simply using your own subjective narrative feelings as a parallel with their attacks. Yet the story makes none around those depictions. The only time Goku and Vegeta are compared is until Goku says he needs to surpass Vegeta. Meaning that Goku is the lesser.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So Moro's current strength is just Moro + Seven Three? That's what the first page seems to suggest. Seven Three did really seem all that powerful normally for Moro to receive such a significant boost.

He's pretty OP though. Regeneration, Fusion doesn't work against him, no Time Limit, has Vegeta's abilities etc.

Still nothing to suggest he's on Jiren or Broly's level though.

It's Moro + 7-3 w/Moro's power absorbed

You know, the whole bit about him being able to create a total copy of himself when he allowed 7-3 to absorb his power.

[Dragon Wukong]

Anyone can say with confidence that Vegeta is stronger than Goku unequivocally.

But we have at least 3 or 4 dudes in here pointing out that you can't. Even the ones that agree with you.

Since it is outright stated that Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.

Which I've shown is up to interpretation.

There is no room for interpretation or contradiction, since the dialogue leaves none.

Except it leaves plenty of room for that, you're being obstinate to deny it. Even the beginning of the chapter has the audience discredit Vegeta's power against Moro in a way that the previous chapter didn't with Goku.

Even the images you claim support your case, like Gohan applauding Goku for pushing Moro back, or Merus and Whis convo about UI omen, in no way describes those attacks greater than Vegeta's.

If dialogue praising Goku's strength against Moro doesn't support the idea he's stronger when the audience immediately afterward is calling out Vegeta's hits have done nothing to Moro, then frankly I find it ridiculous you don't allow "surpass" to be interpreted in other ways. Nothing in Chapter 61 makes a direct comparison between Goku and Vegeta in terms of explicitly strength alone. I don't know how many times I need to make that clear to you. You can argue the narrative is trying to do that via the "finest meal" thing (even though Moro's failed to eat Goku since his training,) the "yeah Vegeta's gotten strong," thing, and the "I'll surpass him" bit. But it's still possible to interpret that in other ways because no one is saying explicitly that Vegeta is stronger than Goku.

You are simply using your own subjective narrative feelings as a parallel with their attacks.

And this is where you become someone very frustrating to debate this with. You continue to dismiss narrative pieces that contradict your position as simply me "using [my] own subjective narrative feelings as a parallel with their attacks." Stop with this argument when you have nothing else to say in the face of narrative ambiguity. It's complete bullshit and you know it. Come on man.

Yet the story makes none around those depictions. The only time Goku and Vegeta are compared is until Goku says he needs to surpass Vegeta. Meaning that Goku is the lesser.

For christs sake. There's plenty of room for interpretation when the god damned dialogue gives us pieces like this.

Gohan praising Goku's ability to push back a full power Moro in their clash.



Said prior discussion where they discuss if Goku can keep using his full power against Moro as he struggles to hold him down.



And you have Gohan and 18 completely dismissing Vegeta's blows against Moro as having absolutely no effect whatsoever.



Keep in mind I'm just using the parts where the dialogue itself supports me. There's still two whole chapters of Moro struggling against Goku. Never mind the fact that Goku also had Moro bleeding after their constant struggle by the time he had begun failing to make use of Ultra Instinct Sign properly. You really wanna say that Vegeta is just outright stronger than Goku using Sign? That Goku doesn't feel the need to maintain the form properly to surpass him? That the view isn't even up to interpretation after all that?

If you're gonna dismiss all that, then I find it honestly ridiculous that you'd suggest I'm the one with some kind of bias in this conversation. I implore you to consider you being obstinate on the idea that the past two chapters would even make this an ambiguous point. You sound arrogant when you say "no, anyone who thinks I'm wrong must absolutely be biased against Vegeta, and trying to insert how they feel it should be." It's a load of absolute bull in this argument, and you ought to know better than that.

Don't even respond if you're going to continue with that "only the narrative bits that make me look right count" crap. You keep saying it, and it's honestly really damn rude when I've gone to the lengths that I have to back up my arguments with actual dialogue, even if you personally don't feel as though it's enough to discredit your argument, for whatever reason. You should at least acknowledge that it's been enough for other people in this thread, otherwise you just sound like a dismissive jerk who wants to be right.