Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:21 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:27 pm
So Moro's current strength is just Moro + Seven Three? That's what the first page seems to suggest. Seven Three did really seem all that powerful normally for Moro to receive such a significant boost.

He's pretty OP though. Regeneration, Fusion doesn't work against him, no Time Limit, has Vegeta's abilities etc.

Still nothing to suggest he's on Jiren or Broly's level though.
Well, he now has SSBE Vegeta too, so for half an hour should be able to best Beerus, Jiren and Broly.

I feel the whole Moro power up isn't quite clear, this whole month I thought Elder Moro absorbed the power of 7-3(with Moro's full power), but now it seems it was just Moro's full power + 7-3's power?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:37 pm

Keep in mind Moro also said he took in all the powers Seven-Three had absorbed at the time. That could also include Gohan's strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:43 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:16 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:23 am
Vegeta's ki didn't increase what he had just got stronger.
If Vegeta’s ki didn’t increase, then explain why he was shocked. To put in perspective, it’s like Vegeta has been fighting with pretty heavy clothes all this time. His powerlevel naturally increases when he puts that weight off. That’s the same process of ki control, make a proper sync of body and spirit. When you don’t have that sync, your powerlevel is lower than it should be, like when Ginyu changed bodies with Goku.
You took my post, cut.out the explanation and then ask me to explain what I felt was going on?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:06 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:23 am
Vegwta honing his spirit didn't make him stronger in the traditional sense of Dragonball.

Traditional is what Goku did going from a 10 to a 15 for example.

Vegeta stayed a 10 but now what were are seeing is Vegeta is a 10 and is able to strike like a 10.

Goku as a 15 only fights like an 8 or a 9.

Or after yardrat Goku was able to fight with his full power and Vegeta has being able to out his full power out.

Vegeta's ki didn't increase what he had just got stronger.
So what exactly is Moro going by when noting Vegeta's change in power? By sensing him from a great distance and feeling an increase in power, wouldn't he be going by his actual Ki?

I believe Vegeta could both be better at projecting his power and also have a greater Ki in the process.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:12 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:43 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:16 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:23 am
Vegeta's ki didn't increase what he had just got stronger.
If Vegeta’s ki didn’t increase, then explain why he was shocked. To put in perspective, it’s like Vegeta has been fighting with pretty heavy clothes all this time. His powerlevel naturally increases when he puts that weight off. That’s the same process of ki control, make a proper sync of body and spirit. When you don’t have that sync, your powerlevel is lower than it should be, like when Ginyu changed bodies with Goku.
You took my post, cut out the explanation and then ask me to explain what I felt was going on?
You said that Vegeta is a 10 and strikes like a 10, which doesn’t explain how Vegeta reacted to his own power. If he is a 10 and could only put out 5, then his power increased from 5 to 10. It’s that simple.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:20 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:02 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Anyone can say with confidence that Vegeta is stronger than Goku unequivocally.
But we have at least 3 or 4 dudes in here pointing out that you can't. Even the ones that agree with you.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Since it is outright stated that Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.
Which I've shown is up to interpretation.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
There is no room for interpretation or contradiction, since the dialogue leaves none.
Except it leaves plenty of room for that, you're being obstinate to deny it. Even the beginning of the chapter has the audience discredit Vegeta's power against Moro in a way that the previous chapter didn't with Goku.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Even the images you claim support your case, like Gohan applauding Goku for pushing Moro back, or Merus and Whis convo about UI omen, in no way describes those attacks greater than Vegeta's.
If dialogue praising Goku's strength against Moro doesn't support the idea he's stronger when the audience immediately afterward is calling out Vegeta's hits have done nothing to Moro, then frankly I find it ridiculous you don't allow "surpass" to be interpreted in other ways. Nothing in Chapter 61 makes a direct comparison between Goku and Vegeta in terms of explicitly strength alone. I don't know how many times I need to make that clear to you. You can argue the narrative is trying to do that via the "finest meal" thing (even though Moro's failed to eat Goku since his training,) the "yeah Vegeta's gotten strong," thing, and the "I'll surpass him" bit. But it's still possible to interpret that in other ways because no one is saying explicitly that Vegeta is stronger than Goku.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
You are simply using your own subjective narrative feelings as a parallel with their attacks.
And this is where you become someone very frustrating to debate this with. You continue to dismiss narrative pieces that contradict your position as simply me "using [my] own subjective narrative feelings as a parallel with their attacks." Stop with this argument when you have nothing else to say in the face of narrative ambiguity. It's complete bullshit and you know it. Come on man.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Yet the story makes none around those depictions. The only time Goku and Vegeta are compared is until Goku says he needs to surpass Vegeta. Meaning that Goku is the lesser.
For christs sake. There's plenty of room for interpretation when the god damned dialogue gives us pieces like this.

Gohan praising Goku's ability to push back a full power Moro in their clash.

Image

Said prior discussion where they discuss if Goku can keep using his full power against Moro as he struggles to hold him down.

Image

And you have Gohan and 18 completely dismissing Vegeta's blows against Moro as having absolutely no effect whatsoever.

Image

Keep in mind I'm just using the parts where the dialogue itself supports me. There's still two whole chapters of Moro struggling against Goku. Never mind the fact that Goku also had Moro bleeding after their constant struggle by the time he had begun failing to make use of Ultra Instinct Sign properly. You really wanna say that Vegeta is just outright stronger than Goku using Sign? That Goku doesn't feel the need to maintain the form properly to surpass him? That the view isn't even up to interpretation after all that?

If you're gonna dismiss all that, then I find it honestly ridiculous that you'd suggest I'm the one with some kind of bias in this conversation. I implore you to consider you being obstinate on the idea that the past two chapters would even make this an ambiguous point. You sound arrogant when you say "no, anyone who thinks I'm wrong must absolutely be biased against Vegeta, and trying to insert how they feel it should be." It's a load of absolute bull in this argument, and you ought to know better than that.

Don't even respond if you're going to continue with that "only the narrative bits that make me look right count" crap. You keep saying it, and it's honestly really damn rude when I've gone to the lengths that I have to back up my arguments with actual dialogue, even if you personally don't feel as though it's enough to discredit your argument, for whatever reason. You should at least acknowledge that it's been enough for other people in this thread, otherwise you just sound like a dismissive jerk who wants to be right.
You are not understanding the problem. You are trying to piece together instances as comparisons between Goku and Vegeta when the story does no such thing. That's why it freely states that Goku needs to surpass Vegeta. If the story was comparing Goku and Vegeta's attacks against Moro, like you claim, it would not outright say Vegeta > Goku. Do you see how you are going against the story by trying to create a comparison? So you can interpret blatant dialogue the way you want? Do you get it?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:25 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:20 pm
You are not understanding the problem. You are trying to piece together instances as comparisons between Goku and Vegeta when the story does no such thing. That's why it freely states that Goku needs to surpass Vegeta. If the story was comparing Goku and Vegeta's attacks against Moro, like you claim, it would not outright say Vegeta > Goku. Do you see how you are going against the story by trying to create a comparison? So you can interpret blatant dialogue the way you want? Do you get it?
Are you really going to suggest that when Vegeta's blow fails to do anything to Moro at the start of the chapter, and everyone is like "AW C'MON THAT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING," that can't be construed as a comparison to how effectively Goku was able to fight Moro in the previous chapter? Because it certainly feels that it can be to me.

I'm interpreting dialogue the way I see it, not how I want it to be. Stop saying that I "want Vegeta to be weaker than Goku." Because I don't. It's entirely within reason to assume based off the ineffectiveness of Vegeta's moves against Moro at the beginning of the chapter to assume Goku is referring to either the technique or his inability to maintain Ultra Instinct.

Look, if you want to say non-blatant dialogue is somehow blatant, go ahead. But you're still against others in this thread who agree on the idea that it's ambiguous. So it's obviously not as blatant as you think it is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:12 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:43 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:16 am

If Vegeta’s ki didn’t increase, then explain why he was shocked. To put in perspective, it’s like Vegeta has been fighting with pretty heavy clothes all this time. His powerlevel naturally increases when he puts that weight off. That’s the same process of ki control, make a proper sync of body and spirit. When you don’t have that sync, your powerlevel is lower than it should be, like when Ginyu changed bodies with Goku.
You took my post, cut out the explanation and then ask me to explain what I felt was going on?
You said that Vegeta is a 10 and strikes like a 10, which doesn’t explain how Vegeta reacted to his own power. If he is a 10 and could only put out 5, then his power increased from 5 to 10. It’s that simple.
Vegeta's power increased but his ki would feel the same is what Inwas trying to clear up. Vegeta's ki size could have stayed the same while spirit control made his blows stronger is what Inwas orginally thinking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:46 pm

I think anymore of this Vegeta vs Goku discussion would just be going in circles repeating the same points. Everyone's already made their stance clear and doesn't seem like anyone's willing to budge.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:33 am
According to the new chapter, Vegeta must inflict damage on the enemy for the technique to work
Speaking of the new chapter, if Vegeta can't separate Moro-73, then honestly fusion would've still been a viable solution.
If Goku can go Ultra Instinct at will now, then Gogeta/Vegito could to the same, Moro wouldn't even be able to touch him.
An Ultra Instinct Fusion might as well disintegrate Moro just from his aura alone if Goku and Vegeta on their own can fight against Moro this well.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:21 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:46 pm
I think anymore of this Vegeta vs Goku discussion would just be going in circles repeating the same points. Everyone's already made their stance clear and doesn't seem like anyone's willing to budge.
It'll probably be a long-running issue if anyone wants to compare Goku or Vegeta's strength to anyone else (say Beerus for example) and people start going "but Vegeta/Goku is stronger."

Which, if I recall correctly, is how the whole spiel started.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:20 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:21 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:27 pm
So Moro's current strength is just Moro + Seven Three? That's what the first page seems to suggest. Seven Three did really seem all that powerful normally for Moro to receive such a significant boost.

He's pretty OP though. Regeneration, Fusion doesn't work against him, no Time Limit, has Vegeta's abilities etc.

Still nothing to suggest he's on Jiren or Broly's level though.
Well, he now has SSBE Vegeta too, so for half an hour should be able to best Beerus, Jiren and Broly.

I feel the whole Moro power up isn't quite clear, this whole month I thought Elder Moro absorbed the power of 7-3(with Moro's full power), but now it seems it was just Moro's full power + 7-3's power?
Didn't he just take Vegeta's abilities and not his strength? They never said he powered up or anything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:30 am

> Spirit fission only works when damage is dealt
> Potara/Dance is useless

Moro73 > current Gogeta/Vegetto?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:52 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:30 am
> Spirit fission only works when damage is dealt
> Potara/Dance is useless

Moro73 > current Gogeta/Vegetto?
The implication very much seems to be that Gogeta/Vegito (or some other fusion involving Goku) would be enough to defeat Moro with pure strength, but now that he has Vegeta's Spirit Fission technique Moro could just undo whatever fusion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:03 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:20 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:21 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:27 pm
So Moro's current strength is just Moro + Seven Three? That's what the first page seems to suggest. Seven Three did really seem all that powerful normally for Moro to receive such a significant boost.

He's pretty OP though. Regeneration, Fusion doesn't work against him, no Time Limit, has Vegeta's abilities etc.

Still nothing to suggest he's on Jiren or Broly's level though.
Well, he now has SSBE Vegeta too, so for half an hour should be able to best Beerus, Jiren and Broly.

I feel the whole Moro power up isn't quite clear, this whole month I thought Elder Moro absorbed the power of 7-3(with Moro's full power), but now it seems it was just Moro's full power + 7-3's power?
Didn't he just take Vegeta's abilities and not his strength? They never said he powered up or anything.
Jaco explained to Piccolo when 7-3 grabbed him, that not just the potency of his techniques were copied but the potency of his punches and kicks too, and they concluded it was an exact copy of Piccolo. Moro now has SSBE's strenght and techniques for a while.

I'm guessing Moro grabs someone and puts that power on top of his. Unless Moro changes from his power to the one grabbed like 7-3 used to do, but that would mean he became much weaker after grabbing Vegeta and beating his ass some more.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:18 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:03 am
Jaco explained to Piccolo when 7-3 grabbed him, that not just the potency of his techniques were copied but the potency of his punches and kicks too, and they concluded it was an exact copy of Piccolo. Moro now has SSBE's strenght and techniques for a while.

I'm guessing Moro grabs someone and puts that power on top of his. Unless Moro changes from his power to the one grabbed like 7-3 used to do, but that would mean he became much weaker after grabbing Vegeta and beating his ass some more.
Well when Seven Three took Piccolo's abilities, he was exactly as strong as Piccolo. He wasn't Seven Three PLUS Piccolo. It didn't stack.

So if Moro did take Vegeta's abilities then shouldn't just be just as strong as Vegeta?

In fact I don't get how he powered up in the first place. He was Moro and he absorbed Seven Three to get his copy ability and the abilities he'd already copied. But why is he stronger?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:23 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:03 am
I'm guessing Moro grabs someone and puts that power on top of his.
That's what I think too, but if Moro really did add another UI tier character's power to his own strength, then there's no way even Beerus can help them at this point.
Either that, or there's a huge gap between Omen and the silver hair.
Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:30 am
> Spirit fission only works when damage is dealt
> Potara/Dance is useless

Moro73 > current Gogeta/Vegetto?
Seems to imply that the gap between Moro73 and a hypothetical SSB Gogeta/Vegetto would be small enough that Moro's attacks could actually connect with the fusion, thus allowing Moro to use Spirit Fission and turn the tides.

I'm guessing a hypothetical SSBE or UI Gogeta/Vegetto would last even less than Goku did, so he's not being considered.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:45 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:18 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:03 am
Jaco explained to Piccolo when 7-3 grabbed him, that not just the potency of his techniques were copied but the potency of his punches and kicks too, and they concluded it was an exact copy of Piccolo. Moro now has SSBE's strenght and techniques for a while.

I'm guessing Moro grabs someone and puts that power on top of his. Unless Moro changes from his power to the one grabbed like 7-3 used to do, but that would mean he became much weaker after grabbing Vegeta and beating his ass some more.
Well when Seven Three took Piccolo's abilities, he was exactly as strong as Piccolo. He wasn't Seven Three PLUS Piccolo. It didn't stack.

So if Moro did take Vegeta's abilities then shouldn't just be just as strong as Vegeta?

In fact I don't get how he powered up in the first place. He was Moro and he absorbed Seven Three to get his copy ability and the abilities he'd already copied. But why is he stronger?
That was how 7-3 worked, yes, but it would be quite stupid and a really bad move for a villain that just reached new heights, to throw it out the window and become weaker as his enemy. If Goku or Vegeta are healed, Moro is fucked for 30 minutes. But he didn't seem to have gotten weaker after grabbing him to me.

The reason why I entertain this idea is because Moro hacked into 7-3 and unlocked every ability stored, he doesn't work like 7-3 did so maybe he overcame the one-at-a-time ability issue too.

And why is he stronger? Moro says he added 7-3's power to his own power that was stored inside it. And taking into account Moro has access to everything 7-3 ever copied, he might be: FP Moro + 7-3 + Piccolo + Gohan + etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:47 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:52 am
Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:30 am
> Spirit fission only works when damage is dealt
> Potara/Dance is useless

Moro73 > current Gogeta/Vegetto?
The implication very much seems to be that Gogeta/Vegito (or some other fusion involving Goku) would be enough to defeat Moro with pure strength, but now that he has Vegeta's Spirit Fission technique Moro could just undo whatever fusion.
Adding to this, can we assume it's teasing the idea that fusion > ultra instinct? :think:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:50 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:23 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:03 am
I'm guessing Moro grabs someone and puts that power on top of his.
That's what I think too, but if Moro really did add another UI tier character's power to his own strength, then there's no way even Beerus can help them at this point.
Either that, or there's a huge gap between Omen and the silver hair.

Yeah, there are two ways to go, either he stacks the power and is well out of everyone's league (unless retconning Omen, Vegeta and FP Moro) or he just got weaker, weak enough for Goku and Vegeta to take him down perhaps on their own, definitely fighting together. For 30 minutes.

Of course he wasn't planning on getting interrumpted by Merus and prolonging the fight any longer, but still sounds weird to me that he chose to become weaker when Vegeta was still putting up a fight. Sound too risky especially for Moro.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:22 am

Moro right not is closer to Goku and Vegeta than Broly was to them. Unless Moro's spirit fission is better than Vegeta's Moro shouldn't be able to touch Gogeta as Broly couldn't.

Honestly it's just something so Goku and Vegeta can't just fuse and win.

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