FishermanJohnWest wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 am
Yet feats show they have grown exponentially stronger.
What feats? From when? What suggests that after the ToP and Broly, early Moro arc Goku and Vegeta can low dif their top iterations?
Flawed logic, post black arc Goku = Hit, and this Hit was stronger then then Hit which beat Kaioken x 10 SSJB Goku an arc before. KK x 4 from saiyan saga is weaker then Base Goku when he arrives on Namek. And the director talks about Frieza increase in strength. This is DB, they always get stronger after every arc.
1. Hit evolved his timeskip, never matched Goku's strength. He tried to counter his speed.
2. Hit = Blue Goku yes. But this Goku has experienced U6, Copy Vegeta and Black arc. He has had all this time to grow. But nothing implies that post-Black arc Goku received any buffs in that time. He simply trained to preserve that power. We know for a fact characters can grow weaker without training. I'm debating that from the end of the Black arc until the fight with Hit, Goku didn't grow. What's suggesting he did? Hit's growth? Well, Goku, as said, has experienced a lot more fights.
3.Broly was a single fight. You may call it a miniarc but it lasted less than a day. Only the Manga indirectly implies a power increase specific to the Broly fight. You must take into account that this is pretty much post-Top and introduction to a new arc. Before the ToP Goku and Vegeta could hardly face a GoD, but after that and their fight with Broly, they can 'have grown stronger than ever', to the point they can face Moro. Someone (yet to be hinted) GoD tier. Overall growth, not specific growth.
4. The issue with Namek is that Goku had been shown doing training that did increase his power. It wasn't ambiguous. Freeza had transformations. All his happened in the span of more time that half of Super. It was natural for him to grow. Even then the power increase wasn't monstrous. We saw how SS Goku vs Freeza went for 2 relatively near-in-strength individuals. Vegeta vs Zarbon and Dodoria etc.
He was using the same form, but the power has increase vastly that even Moro praised him twice for his increase in strength compared to before, and when Moro sensed Vegeta on yadrat, he stocked up on his own power in return cause of that. And pybara talks about Vegeta insane increase in strength cause of his spirit honing. Saying Vegeta didn't grow in power is insane within it's own rights
I'm not referring during his training or afterwards. I'm referring to Blue Evolution Vegeta who faced Moro for the first time. The statements made imply that he hasn't accessed Blue Evo's power since the ToP. Which itself means he is roughly at the same level as back then. Again, this ties into the statement' they have grown stronger than ever' for taking into account the ToP as a whole too.
Show me of a scan which states pre-Yardrat Vegeta can low dif his ToP self. I will accept it then.
A bit stronger is nonsense
As is to say he is massively stronger.
Goku trained to use the ability, to master it. Be able to utilize it with no drawbacks. His fight with Moro opens with Piccolo stating that he can activate Omen at will. The fruits of his training. When 18 asks if he is
stronger no one knows cause they can't read his energy. Moro commends on Omen bringing forth a heightened ability. Which allows Goku to perform the way he did. Speed is what he needed for the fight and the effect of Omen.
Then, we see how Omen is above Prime Moro in speed for certain. And Gohan with Piccolo suggest that if Goku can keep it up he will win. So it's a stamina fight. He didn't bring much strength into the table. And Gohan even says that he still has MUI to utilize if needed... That says something. As in, MUI> Moro definitevely.
Whis praises Merus for training Goku into utilizing Omen like that. But he questions whether Goku was able to Master the form and the ability. Which didn't happen.
Ofc Moro unleashes his full power to catch up with Goku's speed. He notices that Omen cannot be used effectively. Goku says that if Moro stalled for time, then at full power he may not be able to defeat him. More or less what was stated earlier. An endurance and stamina fight.
Furthermore, Moro's statement on him having increased his strength is merely stating that he has reached his prime. Last time he fought Goku was on New Namek's space.
What makes you believe that Omen Goku from before his training wouldn't perform the same? The only issue would be that Goku would be incapable of activating it at will and maintaining it. I mean, there is a small power increase but nothing too great.
SSJB Goku crushed Sanganbo easily, and Saganbo crushed Gohan, Piccolo, 17 and 18 at the same time, and he should easily be >> CSSJB Goku TOP cause of that. Meaning SSJB Goku right now is leagues stronger then before. Omen had better feats, so why would SFP Jiren be stronger ? Cause he fought MUI ? So is SSJ Goku from Namek stronger then Base Goku in DBS cause he used SSJ form then ? Flawed logic
Saganbo was already supercharged and getting destroyed by the extra energy. Getting punches from Blue Goku was pretty much the death sentence. He was weakened even more.
Nor 17, nor 18, nor Piccolo, nor Gohan fought against blue tiers in the tournament. Or else they would have been fighting with Toppo, Hit etc. Them not being able to halt powerhouse Saganbo doesn't mean much. As in, Saganbo > 4 fighters who were near Blue tier in the ToP, making Goku stronger than before? Saganbo is not Blue tier himself either, so it was natural for Goku having gotten somewhat stronger and being able to blitz him and deliver damage.
On top of that Saganbo tanking damage adds to his durab. No one suffered crippling injuries from facing him.
Also after the Broly arc, it's said that Goku and Vegeta powered up more then ever after fighting Broly.
Up to interpretation for the reasons I stated earlier.
Read again the scan you sent. It talks about Freeza's revival and adds it as an 'event' that Saiyan have been through.
So yeah ToP+Broly.
What makes end-of-ToP different from post-ToP? Except from this vague statement.