Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

FishermanJohnWest
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:37 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:13 am
An assumption. One shown to not be the case in the anime in addition.
The anime is even worse, Full Power Jiren still went toe to toe with MUI Goku at the start of episode 130, that's not a big increase in strength.
But you're also trying to wank the growth as well. "Surpass post ToP" as though that's of any significance at all? What exactly did he do post ToP? Nothing of relevance.
I don't need to wank growth, Dragon ball does that by itself insanely well.
"Surpass Post Broly" as though that also makes a radical difference? Did he have some kind of special training that boosted him through the roof?
Image

Stronger then ever, pretty simple, Post Broly > Post ToP > TOP
Why are you assuming there's some notable difference between how he was at the ToP and how he was at the start of the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga when they never noted any difference of worth? Barely any time even passed between those two points.
I ain't assuming for starters cause the series says it all. Barely any time ? Bulla hair is grown out, clearly it's been a while since the TOP from the Broly movie.
Don't try to make it sound more impressive than it is. Between the ToP and the present, he sparred with Vegeta over a short period of time and trained for half a year with Merus. Absolutely nothing to suggest he comes close to MUI.
Try again

Manga confirms Goku and Vegeta got stronger then ever fighting Broly, they fought like crazy in the TOP and got out stronger after that as they do in every arc (EG the black arc) to where the director says everyone has gotten stronger.

And an example of power is seeing how badly SSJB Goku crushed Sanganbo and Sanganbo is >> CSSJB Goku TOP

Meaning Omen right now can easily low Diff Omen from the TOP, something Jiren couldn't do at all.

So why are YOU assuming that nothing has come close to MUI when MUI wasn't that big of an increase over Omen to begin with and feats show Omen right now would decimate Omen from the TOP and has speed feats greater ?

Cause last time I check, their was nothing, nothing but a name

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:51 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 am
Yet feats show they have grown exponentially stronger.
What feats? From when? What suggests that after the ToP and Broly, early Moro arc Goku and Vegeta can low dif their top iterations?
Flawed logic, post black arc Goku = Hit, and this Hit was stronger then then Hit which beat Kaioken x 10 SSJB Goku an arc before. KK x 4 from saiyan saga is weaker then Base Goku when he arrives on Namek. And the director talks about Frieza increase in strength. This is DB, they always get stronger after every arc.
1. Hit evolved his timeskip, never matched Goku's strength. He tried to counter his speed.

2. Hit = Blue Goku yes. But this Goku has experienced U6, Copy Vegeta and Black arc. He has had all this time to grow. But nothing implies that post-Black arc Goku received any buffs in that time. He simply trained to preserve that power. We know for a fact characters can grow weaker without training. I'm debating that from the end of the Black arc until the fight with Hit, Goku didn't grow. What's suggesting he did? Hit's growth? Well, Goku, as said, has experienced a lot more fights.

3.Broly was a single fight. You may call it a miniarc but it lasted less than a day. Only the Manga indirectly implies a power increase specific to the Broly fight. You must take into account that this is pretty much post-Top and introduction to a new arc. Before the ToP Goku and Vegeta could hardly face a GoD, but after that and their fight with Broly, they can 'have grown stronger than ever', to the point they can face Moro. Someone (yet to be hinted) GoD tier. Overall growth, not specific growth.

4. The issue with Namek is that Goku had been shown doing training that did increase his power. It wasn't ambiguous. Freeza had transformations. All his happened in the span of more time that half of Super. It was natural for him to grow. Even then the power increase wasn't monstrous. We saw how SS Goku vs Freeza went for 2 relatively near-in-strength individuals. Vegeta vs Zarbon and Dodoria etc.
He was using the same form, but the power has increase vastly that even Moro praised him twice for his increase in strength compared to before, and when Moro sensed Vegeta on yadrat, he stocked up on his own power in return cause of that. And pybara talks about Vegeta insane increase in strength cause of his spirit honing. Saying Vegeta didn't grow in power is insane within it's own rights
I'm not referring during his training or afterwards. I'm referring to Blue Evolution Vegeta who faced Moro for the first time. The statements made imply that he hasn't accessed Blue Evo's power since the ToP. Which itself means he is roughly at the same level as back then. Again, this ties into the statement' they have grown stronger than ever' for taking into account the ToP as a whole too.

Show me of a scan which states pre-Yardrat Vegeta can low dif his ToP self. I will accept it then.
A bit stronger is nonsense


As is to say he is massively stronger.

Goku trained to use the ability, to master it. Be able to utilize it with no drawbacks. His fight with Moro opens with Piccolo stating that he can activate Omen at will. The fruits of his training. When 18 asks if he is stronger no one knows cause they can't read his energy. Moro commends on Omen bringing forth a heightened ability. Which allows Goku to perform the way he did. Speed is what he needed for the fight and the effect of Omen.

Then, we see how Omen is above Prime Moro in speed for certain. And Gohan with Piccolo suggest that if Goku can keep it up he will win. So it's a stamina fight. He didn't bring much strength into the table. And Gohan even says that he still has MUI to utilize if needed... That says something. As in, MUI> Moro definitevely.

Whis praises Merus for training Goku into utilizing Omen like that. But he questions whether Goku was able to Master the form and the ability. Which didn't happen.

Ofc Moro unleashes his full power to catch up with Goku's speed. He notices that Omen cannot be used effectively. Goku says that if Moro stalled for time, then at full power he may not be able to defeat him. More or less what was stated earlier. An endurance and stamina fight.

Furthermore, Moro's statement on him having increased his strength is merely stating that he has reached his prime. Last time he fought Goku was on New Namek's space.

What makes you believe that Omen Goku from before his training wouldn't perform the same? The only issue would be that Goku would be incapable of activating it at will and maintaining it. I mean, there is a small power increase but nothing too great.
SSJB Goku crushed Sanganbo easily, and Saganbo crushed Gohan, Piccolo, 17 and 18 at the same time, and he should easily be >> CSSJB Goku TOP cause of that. Meaning SSJB Goku right now is leagues stronger then before. Omen had better feats, so why would SFP Jiren be stronger ? Cause he fought MUI ? So is SSJ Goku from Namek stronger then Base Goku in DBS cause he used SSJ form then ? Flawed logic
Saganbo was already supercharged and getting destroyed by the extra energy. Getting punches from Blue Goku was pretty much the death sentence. He was weakened even more.

Nor 17, nor 18, nor Piccolo, nor Gohan fought against blue tiers in the tournament. Or else they would have been fighting with Toppo, Hit etc. Them not being able to halt powerhouse Saganbo doesn't mean much. As in, Saganbo > 4 fighters who were near Blue tier in the ToP, making Goku stronger than before? Saganbo is not Blue tier himself either, so it was natural for Goku having gotten somewhat stronger and being able to blitz him and deliver damage.

On top of that Saganbo tanking damage adds to his durab. No one suffered crippling injuries from facing him.


Also after the Broly arc, it's said that Goku and Vegeta powered up more then ever after fighting Broly.
Up to interpretation for the reasons I stated earlier.

Read again the scan you sent. It talks about Freeza's revival and adds it as an 'event' that Saiyan have been through.

So yeah ToP+Broly.

What makes end-of-ToP different from post-ToP? Except from this vague statement.
P O W E R

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:10 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:37 amFull Power Jiren still went toe to toe with MUI Goku at the start of episode 130
Yeah and he got plastered. The episode before he was blitzed and struck dozens of times before he even knew what happened.
Stronger then ever, pretty simple, Post Broly > Post ToP > TOP
Of course he'd be stronger than ever. They don't grow backwards. Even if they were 1% stronger than they were at the ToP they'd be stronger than ever.

It's also nonsense anyway because they didn't surpass Ultra Instinct in that movie.
I ain't assuming for starters cause the series says it all. Barely any time ? Bulla hair is grown out, clearly it's been a while since the TOP from the Broly movie.
It takes a matter of months for a baby to grow hair.
So why are YOU assuming that nothing has come close to MUI when MUI wasn't that big of an increase over Omen to begin with and feats show Omen right now would decimate Omen from the TOP and has speed feats greater ?
A misplaced assumption that MUI wasn't a big increase over Omen when that's clearly untrue.

The current Omen obviously is more powerful now than the former Omen but obviously is not more powerful than the MUI. There was never any speed feats to suggest that either. It's neither stronger or faster.

The strongest Goku has have ever been is when he fought Jiren. He's never been on that level since.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5901
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:30 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:20 pm My current assumption has been, based on the description Merus and Whis gave of Sign anyhow, is that UI Sign is possibly equivalent to UI itself in terms of strength, but difficult to maintain and use properly. If that is the case, then Goku himself getting stronger would mean that he was stronger in his fight against Moro than in his fight against Jiren. But who knows right now? It's very ambiguous.
Omen = UI in power is a nice idea.

When did they have that conversation?

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:33 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:30 pm Omen = UI in power is a nice idea.

When did they have that conversation?
Talking about the conversations in chapters 59/60.

Of course if this were the case I'd only apply it to the manga.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:46 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:28 am
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:59 pm There is nothing saying, hinting or even implying current Omen is stronger than ToP Ultra Instinct. Nobody compared them, one would think surpassing that level of power would come with an actual statement.

Even when they couldn't even sense their ki, they could all follow the fight between Omen and Moro and the fight between Vegeta and Moro too for that matter, unlike Goku and Jiren's final stand that not even the reader saw and only Whis and Beerus had the eye for. So, at best it's a inconsistent feat with nothing to it.

I highly doubt such a huge power would be surpassed and the reader would only get a one-time vague hint in a panel regarding speed.
nobody needs to compare them in series. They couldn't follow Omen movements before, and they followed MUI vs Jiren until the last 2 panels so it's not proving or disproving anything, but since this is a Omen that is Post TOP, Post Broly and Post 6 months training, Omen to MUI would need to be a bigger boost then all that, which it has no feats or statements suggesting so
And then they followed Omen's fight, Vegeta's fight, 7Moro3's fight... like I said, comparing panels and trying to see in which one people can't follow the fighters is nonsense because it isn't consistent, even if it ends up being Jiren vs Goku the only time nobody could keep up with a fight.

I disagree about the lack of feats. Omen Goku goes from taking some hits and not being able to even attack to stomping a powered-up Jiren in UI. I'd say it's a considerable gain to go from failing to land a hit to stomping an even stronger enemy.

There are no statements one way or the other, only assumptions and headcanon. I guess next month's chapter might shed some light over here, we'll see just how strong Moro actually is compared to Merus or Beerus. If Omen is really stronger than ToP UI, then by scaling alone Beerus should be easily surpassed by Moro.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:40 pm

I don't think Moro is copying the actual battle powers with 7-3's ability. Just their techniques.
Otherwise why would he need to keep the Z gang alive to absorb their energy?

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5901
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:47 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:33 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:30 pm Omen = UI in power is a nice idea.

When did they have that conversation?
Talking about the conversations in chapters 59/60.

Of course if this were the case I'd only apply it to the manga.
It can also be applied to the anime. I used something similar now that I think about it.

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:36 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:47 pm It can also be applied to the anime. I used something similar now that I think about it.
I wouldn't say it necessarily. It seems much more clear in the anime that as Goku achives Ultra Instinct he's much stronger than he was in Sign.

FishermanJohnWest
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:14 am

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:46 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:28 am
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:59 pm There is nothing saying, hinting or even implying current Omen is stronger than ToP Ultra Instinct. Nobody compared them, one would think surpassing that level of power would come with an actual statement.

Even when they couldn't even sense their ki, they could all follow the fight between Omen and Moro and the fight between Vegeta and Moro too for that matter, unlike Goku and Jiren's final stand that not even the reader saw and only Whis and Beerus had the eye for. So, at best it's a inconsistent feat with nothing to it.

I highly doubt such a huge power would be surpassed and the reader would only get a one-time vague hint in a panel regarding speed.
nobody needs to compare them in series. They couldn't follow Omen movements before, and they followed MUI vs Jiren until the last 2 panels so it's not proving or disproving anything, but since this is a Omen that is Post TOP, Post Broly and Post 6 months training, Omen to MUI would need to be a bigger boost then all that, which it has no feats or statements suggesting so
And then they followed Omen's fight, Vegeta's fight, 7Moro3's fight... like I said, comparing panels and trying to see in which one people can't follow the fighters is nonsense because it isn't consistent, even if it ends up being Jiren vs Goku the only time nobody could keep up with a fight.

I disagree about the lack of feats. Omen Goku goes from taking some hits and not being able to even attack to stomping a powered-up Jiren in UI. I'd say it's a considerable gain to go from failing to land a hit to stomping an even stronger enemy.

There are no statements one way or the other, only assumptions and headcanon. I guess next month's chapter might shed some light over here, we'll see just how strong Moro actually is compared to Merus or Beerus. If Omen is really stronger than ToP UI, then by scaling alone Beerus should be easily surpassed by Moro.
Considerable gains isn't enough for the huge increase of strength Goku has got since the TOP. Scaling suggest SSJB and Golden Frieza >> Beerus yet that was wrong as well, scaling suggest Broly is >>>> Beerus but he was only probably stronger. Whatever happens with Jiren, Moro and UI has nothing to do with Beerus.

FishermanJohnWest
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:32 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:51 am

What feats? From when? What suggests that after the ToP and Broly, early Moro arc Goku and Vegeta can low dif their top iterations?
Fight with sanganbo

Saganbo was already supercharged and getting destroyed by the extra energy. Getting punches from Blue Goku was pretty much the death sentence. He was weakened even more.

Nor 17, nor 18, nor Piccolo, nor Gohan fought against blue tiers in the tournament. Or else they would have been fighting with Toppo, Hit etc. Them not being able to halt powerhouse Saganbo doesn't mean much. As in, Saganbo > 4 fighters who were near Blue tier in the ToP, making Goku stronger than before? Saganbo is not Blue tier himself either, so it was natural for Goku having gotten somewhat stronger and being able to blitz him and deliver damage.

On top of that Saganbo tanking damage adds to his durab. No one suffered crippling injuries from facing him.
That's wrong cause Sanganbo wasn't getting super charged with energy until Blue Goku belted him, thus that's moot. Kefla was blue tier and Gohan = her, and Gohan got so much stronger that Goku didn't recognize him, and 17 was said to be as strong as Blue Goku. Sanganbo was beating all of them, yet Blue Goku ToP struggled with Kale alone in terms of power, and Kefla was > Kale.

Blue Goku crushed Sanganbo easily in a couple of hits, showing how much strong he had become.

1. Hit evolved his timeskip, never matched Goku's strength. He tried to counter his speed.
Goku disagrees cause he says his punches are heavier
2. Hit = Blue Goku yes. But this Goku has experienced U6, Copy Vegeta and Black arc. He has had all this time to grow. But nothing implies that post-Black arc Goku received any buffs in that time. He simply trained to preserve that power. We know for a fact characters can grow weaker without training. I'm debating that from the end of the Black arc until the fight with Hit, Goku didn't grow. What's suggesting he did? Hit's growth? Well, Goku, as said, has experienced a lot more fights.
That's false, cause Goku was getting stomped by Black, got rage boost like saiyans usually do and got stronger, even Vegeta went from getting stomp to stomping Black in both the anime and manga. Your just focusing on the word experience and ignoring how experience comes into play since it's caused from battle which saiyans grow in. This isn't new for DB, they are saiyans, they get stronger as they fight, don't know why this is so hard to understand.
3.Broly was a single fight. You may call it a miniarc but it lasted less than a day. Only the Manga indirectly implies a power increase specific to the Broly fight. You must take into account that this is pretty much post-Top and introduction to a new arc. Before the ToP Goku and Vegeta could hardly face a GoD, but after that and their fight with Broly, they can 'have grown stronger than ever', to the point they can face Moro. Someone (yet to be hinted) GoD tier. Overall growth, not specific growth.
Doesn't matter how long it lasted, if Goku and Vegeta got stronger from fighting Broly, then why wouldn't they get stronger after fighting many enemies beforehand ? And what does Moro got to do with growth in saiyans ? They are fighting Moro next, they got stronger as usual, that doesn't disprove anything at all.
4. The issue with Namek is that Goku had been shown doing training that did increase his power. It wasn't ambiguous. Freeza had transformations. All his happened in the span of more time that half of Super. It was natural for him to grow. Even then the power increase wasn't monstrous. We saw how SS Goku vs Freeza went for 2 relatively near-in-strength individuals. Vegeta vs Zarbon and Dodoria etc.
Goku always does training to increase his power unless it's like the SSJ forms where Goku avoided USSJ cause of his speed flaw. It's natural for Goku to grow, just like every arc he is in, he always grow.
I'm not referring during his training or afterwards. I'm referring to Blue Evolution Vegeta who faced Moro for the first time. The statements made imply that he hasn't accessed Blue Evo's power since the ToP. Which itself means he is roughly at the same level as back then. Again, this ties into the statement' they have grown stronger than ever' for taking into account the ToP as a whole too.

Show me of a scan which states pre-Yardrat Vegeta can low dif his ToP self. I will accept it then.
Goku didn't access Omen since the TOP yet when he went into it against Moro they praised him for his massive increase in strength from before. Accessing a form you haven't accessed before or rarely access doesn't mean that power is higher then what you have at the present time.

As is to say he is massively stronger.

Goku trained to use the ability, to master it. Be able to utilize it with no drawbacks. His fight with Moro opens with Piccolo stating that he can activate Omen at will. The fruits of his training. When 18 asks if he is stronger no one knows cause they can't read his energy. Moro commends on Omen bringing forth a heightened ability. Which allows Goku to perform the way he did. Speed is what he needed for the fight and the effect of Omen.

Then, we see how Omen is above Prime Moro in speed for certain. And Gohan with Piccolo suggest that if Goku can keep it up he will win. So it's a stamina fight. He didn't bring much strength into the table. And Gohan even says that he still has MUI to utilize if needed... That says something. As in, MUI> Moro definitevely.
MUI > Moro suppressed isn't a surprise cause it was said before Moro powered up. But it's MUI from the Moro arc, not TOP arc
Whis praises Merus for training Goku into utilizing Omen like that. But he questions whether Goku was able to Master the form and the ability. Which didn't happen.

Ofc Moro unleashes his full power to catch up with Goku's speed. He notices that Omen cannot be used effectively. Goku says that if Moro stalled for time, then at full power he may not be able to defeat him. More or less what was stated earlier. An endurance and stamina fight.

Furthermore, Moro's statement on him having increased his strength is merely stating that he has reached his prime. Last time he fought Goku was on New Namek's space.

What makes you believe that Omen Goku from before his training wouldn't perform the same? The only issue would be that Goku would be incapable of activating it at will and maintaining it. I mean, there is a small power increase but nothing too great.
Small power increase ? How the hell did you interpret what you said to being a small increase in strength ? They are wondering if Omen while holding back is stronger then ever (18 statements) let alone FP Omen

Up to interpretation for the reasons I stated earlier.

Read again the scan you sent. It talks about Freeza's revival and adds it as an 'event' that Saiyan have been through.

So yeah ToP+Broly.

What makes end-of-ToP different from post-ToP? Except from this vague statement.

It's specifically talking about the Broly saga, and how within that event Goku and Vegeta got stronger then ever, nothing about them being post ToP here, it's post Broly talking about what's happening here.

FishermanJohnWest
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:36 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:10 am

Yeah and he got plastered. The episode before he was blitzed and struck dozens of times before he even knew what happened.

Getting beaten after the person is blocking and swapping hands isn't an impressive difference in strength, what MUI did to FP Jiren is a poor mans comparison to what SSj2 Kid Gohan did to perfect Cell
Of course he'd be stronger than ever. They don't grow backwards. Even if they were 1% stronger than they were at the ToP they'd be stronger than ever.

It's also nonsense anyway because they didn't surpass Ultra Instinct in that movie.
Why would they bother to give that quote if they only got 1% stronger ? Your low balling now. Broly and Gogeta surpassed UI, Goku admits himself that Broly is > Goku.

It takes a matter of months for a baby to grow hair.
meaning the Broly movie takes place months after the TOP since Bulla hair is grown out

A misplaced assumption that MUI wasn't a big increase over Omen when that's clearly untrue.

The current Omen obviously is more powerful now than the former Omen but obviously is not more powerful than the MUI. There was never any speed feats to suggest that either. It's neither stronger or faster.

The strongest Goku has have ever been is when he fought Jiren. He's never been on that level since.
Your ignoring feats and statements then cause I posted the scans before.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:39 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:32 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:51 am

What feats? From when? What suggests that after the ToP and Broly, early Moro arc Goku and Vegeta can low dif their top iterations?
Fight with sanganbo

Saganbo was already supercharged and getting destroyed by the extra energy. Getting punches from Blue Goku was pretty much the death sentence. He was weakened even more.

Nor 17, nor 18, nor Piccolo, nor Gohan fought against blue tiers in the tournament. Or else they would have been fighting with Toppo, Hit etc. Them not being able to halt powerhouse Saganbo doesn't mean much. As in, Saganbo > 4 fighters who were near Blue tier in the ToP, making Goku stronger than before? Saganbo is not Blue tier himself either, so it was natural for Goku having gotten somewhat stronger and being able to blitz him and deliver damage.

On top of that Saganbo tanking damage adds to his durab. No one suffered crippling injuries from facing him.
That's wrong cause Sanganbo wasn't getting super charged with energy until Blue Goku belted him, thus that's moot. Kefla was blue tier and Gohan = her, and Gohan got so much stronger that Goku didn't recognize him, and 17 was said to be as strong as Blue Goku. Sanganbo was beating all of them, yet Blue Goku ToP struggled with Kale alone in terms of power, and Kefla was > Kale.

Blue Goku crushed Sanganbo easily in a couple of hits, showing how much strong he had become.

1. Hit evolved his timeskip, never matched Goku's strength. He tried to counter his speed.
Goku disagrees cause he says his punches are heavier
2. Hit = Blue Goku yes. But this Goku has experienced U6, Copy Vegeta and Black arc. He has had all this time to grow. But nothing implies that post-Black arc Goku received any buffs in that time. He simply trained to preserve that power. We know for a fact characters can grow weaker without training. I'm debating that from the end of the Black arc until the fight with Hit, Goku didn't grow. What's suggesting he did? Hit's growth? Well, Goku, as said, has experienced a lot more fights.
That's false, cause Goku was getting stomped by Black, got rage boost like saiyans usually do and got stronger, even Vegeta went from getting stomp to stomping Black in both the anime and manga. Your just focusing on the word experience and ignoring how experience comes into play since it's caused from battle which saiyans grow in. This isn't new for DB, they are saiyans, they get stronger as they fight, don't know why this is so hard to understand.
3.Broly was a single fight. You may call it a miniarc but it lasted less than a day. Only the Manga indirectly implies a power increase specific to the Broly fight. You must take into account that this is pretty much post-Top and introduction to a new arc. Before the ToP Goku and Vegeta could hardly face a GoD, but after that and their fight with Broly, they can 'have grown stronger than ever', to the point they can face Moro. Someone (yet to be hinted) GoD tier. Overall growth, not specific growth.
Doesn't matter how long it lasted, if Goku and Vegeta got stronger from fighting Broly, then why wouldn't they get stronger after fighting many enemies beforehand ? And what does Moro got to do with growth in saiyans ? They are fighting Moro next, they got stronger as usual, that doesn't disprove anything at all.
4. The issue with Namek is that Goku had been shown doing training that did increase his power. It wasn't ambiguous. Freeza had transformations. All his happened in the span of more time that half of Super. It was natural for him to grow. Even then the power increase wasn't monstrous. We saw how SS Goku vs Freeza went for 2 relatively near-in-strength individuals. Vegeta vs Zarbon and Dodoria etc.
Goku always does training to increase his power unless it's like the SSJ forms where Goku avoided USSJ cause of his speed flaw. It's natural for Goku to grow, just like every arc he is in, he always grow.
I'm not referring during his training or afterwards. I'm referring to Blue Evolution Vegeta who faced Moro for the first time. The statements made imply that he hasn't accessed Blue Evo's power since the ToP. Which itself means he is roughly at the same level as back then. Again, this ties into the statement' they have grown stronger than ever' for taking into account the ToP as a whole too.

Show me of a scan which states pre-Yardrat Vegeta can low dif his ToP self. I will accept it then.
Goku didn't access Omen since the TOP yet when he went into it against Moro they praised him for his massive increase in strength from before. Accessing a form you haven't accessed before or rarely access doesn't mean that power is higher then what you have at the present time.

As is to say he is massively stronger.

Goku trained to use the ability, to master it. Be able to utilize it with no drawbacks. His fight with Moro opens with Piccolo stating that he can activate Omen at will. The fruits of his training. When 18 asks if he is stronger no one knows cause they can't read his energy. Moro commends on Omen bringing forth a heightened ability. Which allows Goku to perform the way he did. Speed is what he needed for the fight and the effect of Omen.

Then, we see how Omen is above Prime Moro in speed for certain. And Gohan with Piccolo suggest that if Goku can keep it up he will win. So it's a stamina fight. He didn't bring much strength into the table. And Gohan even says that he still has MUI to utilize if needed... That says something. As in, MUI> Moro definitevely.
MUI > Moro suppressed isn't a surprise cause it was said before Moro powered up. But it's MUI from the Moro arc, not TOP arc
Whis praises Merus for training Goku into utilizing Omen like that. But he questions whether Goku was able to Master the form and the ability. Which didn't happen.

Ofc Moro unleashes his full power to catch up with Goku's speed. He notices that Omen cannot be used effectively. Goku says that if Moro stalled for time, then at full power he may not be able to defeat him. More or less what was stated earlier. An endurance and stamina fight.

Furthermore, Moro's statement on him having increased his strength is merely stating that he has reached his prime. Last time he fought Goku was on New Namek's space.

What makes you believe that Omen Goku from before his training wouldn't perform the same? The only issue would be that Goku would be incapable of activating it at will and maintaining it. I mean, there is a small power increase but nothing too great.
Small power increase ? How the hell did you interpret what you said to being a small increase in strength ? They are wondering if Omen while holding back is stronger then ever (18 statements) let alone FP Omen

Up to interpretation for the reasons I stated earlier.

Read again the scan you sent. It talks about Freeza's revival and adds it as an 'event' that Saiyan have been through.

So yeah ToP+Broly.

What makes end-of-ToP different from post-ToP? Except from this vague statement.

It's specifically talking about the Broly saga, and how within that event Goku and Vegeta got stronger then ever, nothing about them being post ToP here, it's post Broly talking about what's happening here.
I ain't recycling my arguments and flood this thread up. I made my points. Feats>statements and we never saw Gohan vs Kefla which seems to be a large part of your argument. Show me the 17 quote on him being blue level.

Lastly, Blue ≠ perfected blue so there's also that needed to be taken into account.

The only significant training came from Yardrat for Vegeta and from Merus for Goku.

Who exactly says that Goku is stronger in Omen? Cause reading through the chapters no one does, cause they can't.

The only time it's suggested Goku resorts to superior strength in Omen is when he power stresses it.
P O W E R

FishermanJohnWest
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:22 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:39 am
FishermanJohnWest wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:32 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:51 am .
I ain't recycling my arguments and flood this thread up. I made my points. Feats>statements and we never saw Gohan vs Kefla which seems to be a large part of your argument. Show me the 17 quote on him being blue level.

Lastly, Blue ≠ perfected blue so there's also that needed to be taken into account.

The only significant training came from Yardrat for Vegeta and from Merus for Goku.

Who exactly says that Goku is stronger in Omen? Cause reading through the chapters no one does, cause they can't.

The only time it's suggested Goku resorts to superior strength in Omen is when he power stresses it.
In a debate, you need both feats, statements and power scaling. You don't just cherry pick one and ignore the rest.

And we saw the fight with Kefla vs Gohan, it ended in a draw so that's false. Goku used perfect blue against Kale and jiren compared his kaioken power up to that of Kale.

Blue Goku shows he is leagues stronger then before, that includes Omen as well -.-

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5901
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:12 am

Dragon Wukong wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:36 am
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:47 pm It can also be applied to the anime. I used something similar now that I think about it.
I wouldn't say it necessarily. It seems much more clear in the anime that as Goku achives Ultra Instinct he's much stronger than he was in Sign.
I always saw it as Goku unlonking more power of UI until he reaches it's max and turns Silver.

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:32 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:12 am I always saw it as Goku unlonking more power of UI until he reaches it's max and turns Silver.
Sure, but that still means UI is "stronger" than Sign in that continuity.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:57 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:14 am Considerable gains isn't enough for the huge increase of strength Goku has got since the TOP. Scaling suggest SSJB and Golden Frieza >> Beerus yet that was wrong as well, scaling suggest Broly is >>>> Beerus but he was only probably stronger. Whatever happens with Jiren, Moro and UI has nothing to do with Beerus.
The huge increase isn't measurable, it's up in the air, so it's really a useless discussion. You can't tell how much stronger Goku has gotten after Merus without headcanon. Besides UI gains aren't really about power like in the anime, he didn't trash Jiren because he could hit harder than before, but better.

And of course it has to do with Beerus what happens with Moro.
ToP Omen was at least comparable to Belmod because both weren't enough for Jiren, then they both grow way stronger, so at the very least they would rank close enough with Beerus and Quitela.
If current Omen that was eclipsed by SSBE, Moro and Moro73, already surpasses ToP UI, then the scaling is done by itself.
Dragon Wukong wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:32 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:12 am I always saw it as Goku unlonking more power of UI until he reaches it's max and turns Silver.
Sure, but that still means UI is "stronger" than Sign in that continuity.
Yeah, the Kefla fight implies anime Goku can't hit as hard as he would in UI. For the manga, I think the word "stronger" might not be accurate to describe what UI brings to the table.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5901
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:30 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:32 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:12 am I always saw it as Goku unlonking more power of UI until he reaches it's max and turns Silver.
Sure, but that still means UI is "stronger" than Sign in that continuity.
Not necessarily. Silver hair can just mean a more balanced stamina wise form just like the manga.

Can go either way really. Better to wait if they adapt it or not.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:42 pm

The manga never suggested that the silver UI is better stamina-wise, since Goku's loss to Jiren was precisely because he couldn't maintain it active for longer.

Instead, the silver UI allowed Goku to go on the offensive against Jiren. Compare to Sign, which was on the defensive the whole time and never landed a solid hit on Jiren. So at the very least, Goku was faster in UI than in Sign, with better movements as well. He forced Jiren to power up through his limits just to keep up (too bad we didn't see it tho).

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:53 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:57 pmFor the manga, I think the word "stronger" might not be accurate to describe what UI brings to the table.
Looking at the discussion of Ultra Instinct (and Spirit Control, for that matter) over recent pages, this seems to be what's at the root of a certain amount of disagreement, since "stronger" traditionally tends to be a byword for "has a larger ki", whereas it isn't at all clear in the manga so far that Ultra Instinct (or achieving more polished Spirit Control necessarily, in and of itself at least) actually yields a larger ki for a character than what they can access by other means. I think adapting Elder Pybara's phrase, "power projection", explains most succinctly what's going on with both Ultra Instinct and Spirit Control, as this is enhanced to a very considerable extent.

In the case of a fully mastered Ultra Instinct, one might speculate (based on Whis's statements, as much as anything) that power projection, particularly as linked to the sheer quality of movement it engenders, achieves a true perfection. But even with a partially polished Spirit Control, the power projection it yields is sufficiently enhanced to go well beyond what one would typically expect from even a larger ("stronger") ki; so they can be "stronger" in application of power without necessarily being at all "stronger" in terms of sheer ki size (the point miguelnuva1 was making, I believe). Though the quote below was made against this line of argument, I would argue that it actually bolsters it:
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:16 am If Vegeta’s ki didn’t increase, then explain why he was shocked.
The reason I think this quote actually works in favour of the argument above is that the main characters tend to know all too well when they've got "stronger" in the sense of their ki size becoming bigger than it was, whether by transformation or by training.

As Pybara explains that Vegeta is so much "stronger", in the sense that he can now start projecting the power he has properly, it makes better sense to interpret Vegeta's amazement at the power he sees himself wielding as evidence that he doesn't actually expect to see that much difference to what he's used to. So at this point, his "strength" (as he has understood the concept so far) isn't really likely to be all that different to how it was before. If it were, he wouldn't be shocked by what he was able to do.

I've no doubt that the training Vegeta undergoes to achieve Spirit Control also ends up making him "stronger" in the traditional sense as well (there are too many statements by other characters to that effect to argue to the contrary), but the real fact of his "strength" is in the power projection capabilities he evidences.

Post Reply