Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:15 pm

People forgot that Raditz was shocked silly by Goku's Ki Control, his ability to concentrate his Ki so to generate a Ki Blast greater than his own base-ki

Spirit Control is the same thing: Vegeta became so much better at it, that using the same amount of effort in concentrating his Ki resulted into a much greater concentration=power
He concentrated 10 ki expecting to generate a 100 Ki blast, but instead he got a 1000 ki blast! Because his ability to manipulate Ki became that much better!

Last: a 30% difference is enough to utter dominate an opponent.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:29 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:15 pm
Last: a 30% difference is enough to utter dominate an opponent.
People think that it's apparently not enough.

We must take into account however that the instance of Jiren, is the only one in which there is a bigger difference amongst characters. But it was under very special conditions.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:40 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:29 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:15 pm
Last: a 30% difference is enough to utter dominate an opponent.
People think that it's apparently not enough.

We must take into account however that the instance of Jiren, is the only one in which there is a bigger difference amongst characters. But it was under very special conditions.
Honestly 30% is still excessive. Cui vs Vegeta showed that even only a 25% difference is enough to kill someone in a single blow.

That's why I find it honestly ridiculous when people act as though someone tanking or one-shotting anything an opponent throws at them must mean they're tens or hundreds of times stronger than said opponent.

On an off-note, I assume that Goku and Vegeta are anywhere between 85-95% within Beerus' level of strength in their SSB forms right now after their training, with UI Omen Goku possibly in that last 95% stretch.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:45 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:40 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:29 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:15 pm
Last: a 30% difference is enough to utter dominate an opponent.
People think that it's apparently not enough.

We must take into account however that the instance of Jiren, is the only one in which there is a bigger difference amongst characters. But it was under very special conditions.
Honestly 30% is still excessive. Cui vs Vegeta showed that even only a 25% difference is enough to kill someone in a single blow.
And yet, for some reason, when not much contradicts this, MUI has to be a significant boost of power (in whichever continuity it needs to be), or Moro needs to be like way above Jiren in the Manga...

I don't deny the fact that even with massive differences people can still contend though. But in death battles, that won't last for long. Blue Goku being the example with 7-Moro-3 and Base Goku on Namek with initial Final Freeza.

But in the top, Blue Goku did push back a heavily surpressed Jiren who was above KK×20 Blue. It doesn't mean that Jiren was also Blue level, nor that he couldn't one-shot Goku.

Cause if we apply the power scaling formula from our discussions in a show, it will simply not be appealing to the eye.

The plot demanding for something is an outlier. Doesn't reflect the actual standing feats. As the example with Jiren I gave.

But oh well...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:57 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:45 pm
And yet, for some reason, when not much contradicts this, MUI has to be a significant boost of power (in whichever continuity it needs to be), or Moro needs to be like way above Jiren in the Manga...

I don't deny the fact that even with massive differences people can still contend though. But in death battles, that won't last for long. Blue Goku being the example with 7-Moro-3 and Base Goku on Namek with initial Final Freeza.

But in the top, Blue Goku did push back a heavily surpressed Jiren who was above KK×20 Blue. It doesn't mean that Jiren was also Blue level, nor that he couldn't one-shot Goku.

Cause if we apply the power scaling formula from our discussions in a show, it will simply not be appealing to the eye.

The plot demanding for something is an outlier. Doesn't reflect the actual standing feats. As the example with Jiren I gave.

But oh well...
The only thing that contradicts the idea that gains might not be excessive such as outright multipliers, is the anime bringing back Kaioken and literally using multipliers. It's not a thing in the manga however, so the idea still works.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:25 pm

another important element to remember: in ToP they were not allowed to kill their opponents.

And many must have had mainly attacks made to kill, like Freeza.

So unless against somebody sensibly stronger, most contenders must have been using the Ultimate Technique: Holding Back(TM)

That said, there is no way in hell the anime version of UI doesn't come with some degree of power-up.
Up to 3rd Omen, one can still play it as maximizing efficiency resulting into a greater effectiveness without changes in the formal Battle Power: basically the extreme version of the God-Blue Switch used by Vegeta vs Black in the manga.
But Silver UI brought such an improvement it's extremely hard to suggest a power increase wasn't involved.


That said: I speculate Blue Kaiohken does NOT results into a increase of Effective Power equivalent to the increase in Base Power.
Like, Kaiohken is basically the antithesis of the whole point of God Training Methodology which is all about control, isn't it?
Thus, while the "base power" increase by N, the ACTUAL Power Output increase by a FRACTION of N, because the the OPPOSITE reason of the improvements brought by Spirit Control.
In short, Goku got a massive improvement in raw numbers but his "multiplier" dropped: his Scouter reading would go from 10 to 100, but his ki blast would go from 100 to 120.
The final result was still an improvement over his non-Kaiohken state, though.

That would explain quite well how Hit could somehow manage against Goku becoming _TEN_ times stronger, when he was not much different in strength to "normal" Blue Goku: Goku's punches didn't become ten times stronger, they "only" became, say, 10~20% stronger.
More than enough to overpower Hit, but also not enough to One Punch him out of the ring, like a 10 times stronger punch would have done.

This would make pretty much everything fit, also Jiren not being more than 40 times stronger than Goku Blue but, say, only 2, would open the door to UI\Omen being mostly a "maximize efficiency" state more than a "suddenly you are 100 times stronger" even in the anime

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:47 pm

Something else too.

The 'Kefla can kill Goku' anime statement needs to be debunked, since it's being used so people can wank Kefla.

Why would Kefla, Caulifla and Kale being pushed back choosing to fuse into her, possibly want to kill Goku? When in the tournament it's not allowed...

She was never stronger than Omen Goku. Even then, weaker individuals can still kill stronger ones. So that ties into her more.

Back to main point tho, the risk of fusion and the effort of taking out Goku, just for them to be eliminated at the cost of a single enemy fighter sounds ridiculous and somewhat nonsensical. Not to mention the possibility of the whole universe getting erased since Frost already created issues earlier.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:25 pm

What exactly was so impressive about Saganbo anyway? People keep using him to wank Goku to insane levels.

He beat Gohan and 17. So what? Both of them are not impressive. Gohan stalemated a nerfed fusion, was stated as being weaker than Goku in the ToP and 17 is even weaker than him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:23 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:53 pm
*snip*
You made the point much clearer. Thank you. But still I disagree. I don’t think you can separate “power projection” from “powerlevel”. If someone with a scouter were to measure Vegeta’s battle power at that moment, it would probably show how much powerful it is. If Vegeta shots that ki blast against a mirror, but a mirror that didn’t experience the same lessons, we can agree that the current Vegeta would win, but do you think a scouter would registry the same number to the two blasts?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:46 pm

Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:25 pm
What exactly was so impressive about Saganbo anyway? People keep using him to wank Goku to insane levels.

He beat Gohan and 17. So what? Both of them are not impressive. Gohan stalemated a nerfed fusion, was stated as being weaker than Goku in the ToP and 17 is even weaker than him.
Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:23 am

Miracles wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:46 pm
Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:25 pm
What exactly was so impressive about Saganbo anyway? People keep using him to wank Goku to insane levels.

He beat Gohan and 17. So what? Both of them are not impressive. Gohan stalemated a nerfed fusion, was stated as being weaker than Goku in the ToP and 17 is even weaker than him.
Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.
17 beat up a 7-3 with Moro's old copy not Gohan's.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:40 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:57 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:14 am
Considerable gains isn't enough for the huge increase of strength Goku has got since the TOP. Scaling suggest SSJB and Golden Frieza >> Beerus yet that was wrong as well, scaling suggest Broly is >>>> Beerus but he was only probably stronger. Whatever happens with Jiren, Moro and UI has nothing to do with Beerus.
The huge increase isn't measurable, it's up in the air, so it's really a useless discussion. You can't tell how much stronger Goku has gotten after Merus without headcanon. Besides UI gains aren't really about power like in the anime, he didn't trash Jiren because he could hit harder than before, but better.

And of course it has to do with Beerus what happens with Moro.
ToP Omen was at least comparable to Belmod because both weren't enough for Jiren, then they both grow way stronger, so at the very least they would rank close enough with Beerus and Quitela.
If current Omen that was eclipsed by SSBE, Moro and Moro73, already surpasses ToP UI, then the scaling is done by itself.
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ZombieVito wrote:
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I always saw it as Goku unlonking more power of UI until he reaches it's max and turns Silver.
Sure, but that still means UI is "stronger" than Sign in that continuity.
Yeah, the Kefla fight implies anime Goku can't hit as hard as he would in UI. For the manga, I think the word "stronger" might not be accurate to describe what UI brings to the table.

Hence why you rely on the performance differences, if SSJB Goku can crush Sanganbo easily, and Sanganbo is > Blue Goku TOP based on feats, that means Omen right now >>> TOP Omen, and MUI + LB JIren need to show feats capable of such a thing.

And why would Belmod only be omen level ?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:42 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Something else too.

The 'Kefla can kill Goku' anime statement needs to be debunked, since it's being used so people can wank Kefla.

Why would Kefla, Caulifla and Kale being pushed back choosing to fuse into her, possibly want to kill Goku? When in the tournament it's not allowed...

She was never stronger than Omen Goku. Even then, weaker individuals can still kill stronger ones. So that ties into her more.

Back to main point tho, the risk of fusion and the effort of taking out Goku, just for them to be eliminated at the cost of a single enemy fighter sounds ridiculous and somewhat nonsensical. Not to mention the possibility of the whole universe getting erased since Frost already created issues earlier.
Kefla wasn't hurt by Goku power wise, and Roshi says she can take Goku out in 1 hit towards the end and she nearly came close to hitting Goku. Weaker individuals don't get hit by stronger people and feel the punches are wimpy

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:20 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:42 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Something else too.

The 'Kefla can kill Goku' anime statement needs to be debunked, since it's being used so people can wank Kefla.

Why would Kefla, Caulifla and Kale being pushed back choosing to fuse into her, possibly want to kill Goku? When in the tournament it's not allowed...

She was never stronger than Omen Goku. Even then, weaker individuals can still kill stronger ones. So that ties into her more.

Back to main point tho, the risk of fusion and the effort of taking out Goku, just for them to be eliminated at the cost of a single enemy fighter sounds ridiculous and somewhat nonsensical. Not to mention the possibility of the whole universe getting erased since Frost already created issues earlier.
Kefla wasn't hurt by Goku power wise, and Roshi says she can take Goku out in 1 hit towards the end and she nearly came close to hitting Goku. Weaker individuals don't get hit by stronger people and feel the punches are wimpy
What guarantees to us that Kefla wasn't exaggerating? Ooohhh yes...

Image

Image

Kefla getting pummeled by UI Goku in SS2, feeling pain, getting angry at Goku's taunts. All this before supercharging herself into that overloaded state to counter Goku's speed with ki blast spam.

We know for a fact that even if someone is weaker, releasing their energy at once can prove lethal to others. Piccolo, Vegeta, Cell, to name a few...

So I don't know why people think Kefla > UI Omen Goku...

Edit: I have used 2 sites and yet the images don't load. To give context, in the one Kefla is at pain after a single kick and the next is her stating 'impossible' towards Omen Goku's strength.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:04 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Something else too.

The 'Kefla can kill Goku' anime statement needs to be debunked, since it's being used so people can wank Kefla.

Why would Kefla, Caulifla and Kale being pushed back choosing to fuse into her, possibly want to kill Goku? When in the tournament it's not allowed...

She was never stronger than Omen Goku. Even then, weaker individuals can still kill stronger ones. So that ties into her more.

Back to main point tho, the risk of fusion and the effort of taking out Goku, just for them to be eliminated at the cost of a single enemy fighter sounds ridiculous and somewhat nonsensical. Not to mention the possibility of the whole universe getting erased since Frost already created issues earlier.
SS Kefla was also hyped up to be equal to Goku's Genki-Dama.

Then she proceeds to go SS2, and powers up even further for her final attack, so it's really not outside the realm of possibility that it could kill Goku if the attack actually landed on him.

But yeah, Goku being "fatigued" and Kale/Caulifla adapting to him leaves enough room for Kefla to be essentially as strong as the plot demands.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:09 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:04 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Something else too.

The 'Kefla can kill Goku' anime statement needs to be debunked, since it's being used so people can wank Kefla.

Why would Kefla, Caulifla and Kale being pushed back choosing to fuse into her, possibly want to kill Goku? When in the tournament it's not allowed...

She was never stronger than Omen Goku. Even then, weaker individuals can still kill stronger ones. So that ties into her more.

Back to main point tho, the risk of fusion and the effort of taking out Goku, just for them to be eliminated at the cost of a single enemy fighter sounds ridiculous and somewhat nonsensical. Not to mention the possibility of the whole universe getting erased since Frost already created issues earlier.
SS Kefla was also hyped up to be equal to Goku's Genki-Dama.

Then she proceeds to go SS2, and powers up even further for her final attack, so it's really not outside the realm of possibility that it could kill Goku if the attack actually landed on him.

But yeah, Goku being "fatigued" and Kale/Caulifla adapting to him leaves enough room for Kefla to be essentially as strong as the plot demands.
Agreed. But it also clearly depends on how you scale Goku and Vegeta thoughout the ToP.

Imo, they grew stronger and for Kefla I use SSB KK Goku as my first outlier. As in, he didn't use ×20 against SS Kefla. So her power ranges from below Blue to low GoD tier (her SS2 is not particularly strong for me, but her overloaded state unleashes more power).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:12 am

Miracles wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:46 pm
Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:25 pm
What exactly was so impressive about Saganbo anyway? People keep using him to wank Goku to insane levels.

He beat Gohan and 17. So what? Both of them are not impressive. Gohan stalemated a nerfed fusion, was stated as being weaker than Goku in the ToP and 17 is even weaker than him.
Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.
All that praise only to get 'matched'' by Gohan who was weaker than Goku as per the story. Compared to other manga fusions, she was underwhelming. Gohan being unrecognizable doesn't tell us anything btw. He could be way stronger yet still weaker than ToP Goku.

As for 17. He was as strong as Goku/Vegeta back in the ToP but weaker than Gohan now who may or may not be weaker than ToP Goku. Possible retcon? Wouldn't be the first time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:16 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:20 am


What guarantees to us that Kefla wasn't exaggerating? Ooohhh yes...

Image

Image

Kefla getting pummeled by UI Goku in SS2, feeling pain, getting angry at Goku's taunts. All this before supercharging herself into that overloaded state to counter Goku's speed with ki blast spam.

We know for a fact that even if someone is weaker, releasing their energy at once can prove lethal to others. Piccolo, Vegeta, Cell, to name a few...

So I don't know why people think Kefla > UI Omen Goku...

Edit: I have used 2 sites and yet the images don't load. To give context, in the one Kefla is at pain after a single kick and the next is her stating 'impossible' towards Omen Goku's strength.
Kefla states that Kaioken Goku punches hurt her badly, so she is honest when it comes to what damaging her and what's not. Whis also goes to say that Goku lacks power cause he is thinking before attacking. And towards the end, Roshi says she can one-shot Goku. Goku was hitting Kefla cause of his better reactions and speed, that doesn't mean he was above her in power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:37 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:16 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:20 am


What guarantees to us that Kefla wasn't exaggerating? Ooohhh yes...

Image

Image

Kefla getting pummeled by UI Goku in SS2, feeling pain, getting angry at Goku's taunts. All this before supercharging herself into that overloaded state to counter Goku's speed with ki blast spam.

We know for a fact that even if someone is weaker, releasing their energy at once can prove lethal to others. Piccolo, Vegeta, Cell, to name a few...

So I don't know why people think Kefla > UI Omen Goku...

Edit: I have used 2 sites and yet the images don't load. To give context, in the one Kefla is at pain after a single kick and the next is her stating 'impossible' towards Omen Goku's strength.
Kefla states that Kaioken Goku punches hurt her badly, so she is honest when it comes to what damaging her and what's not. Whis also goes to say that Goku lacks power cause he is thinking before attacking. And towards the end, Roshi says she can one-shot Goku. Goku was hitting Kefla cause of his better reactions and speed, that doesn't mean he was above her in power.
However Omen, especially in the anime, is a universal multiplier on Goku's stats. Speed, strength, durab, reaction speed etc. The latter being the most improved and refined.

That much isn't ambiguous. But Kefla, being the hotpot of shit she is, makes this harder.

So imo:

God Goku < Base Kefla < Blue Goku < Blue KK Goku ≈ SS Kefla < SS2 Kefla < Blue KK×20 Goku < Overloaded Kefla < Omen Goku

Which frankly makes sense but clearly depends on how you scale the ToP. Omen overpowered Kefla, hense her reaction, her power struggle and her demise. It's wasn't just the moves or the refined attacks. But when she approached Omen in strength it could be lethal for Goku.

Theres always someone stronger and someone weaker in a fight, so to say that the weaker individual may not shrug off attacks is up to hard debate.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:12 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:37 am



However Omen, especially in the anime, is a universal multiplier on Goku's stats. Speed, strength, durab, reaction speed etc. The latter being the most improved and refined.


That much isn't ambiguous. But Kefla, being the hotpot of shit she is, makes this harder.

So imo:

God Goku < Base Kefla < Blue Goku < Blue KK Goku ≈ SS Kefla < SS2 Kefla < Blue KK×20 Goku < Overloaded Kefla < Omen Goku
Makes no sense, SSj2 Kefla surpassed Omen Phase 1, SSJ Kefla rivaled the spirit bomb, and SSj2 Kefla felt Omen was wimpy and can one-shot Omen in the end, it's very simple to see that power wise SSJ2 Kefla > Omen
Which frankly makes sense but clearly depends on how you scale the ToP. Omen overpowered Kefla, hense her reaction, her power struggle and her demise. It's wasn't just the moves or the refined attacks. But when she approached Omen in strength it could be lethal for Goku.

Theres always someone stronger and someone weaker in a fight, so to say that the weaker individual may not shrug off attacks is up to hard debate.
Reactions isn't evidence, Whis, Kefla, and Roshi make it clear power wise she was above Omen, you can't just ignore 90% of the fight cause you have your own head canon.

Goku can make Jiren reacted, doesn't mean he was above Jiren

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