Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

Fisherman is right here. Kefla was outright stated to be equal in energy to the Spirit Bomb, hence enticing the Ultra Instinct out of Goku. Whis said that. Specifically, he said that after Kefla one-kicked Goku into unconsciousness. There's no arguing this.

It's really easy actually. Fusion is insane. Kefla has a unique super saiyan transformation veeeery similar to Broly's, so she's much stronger than "just" a super saiyan Fusion. Yet, she's nowhere near Vegito or Gogeta in power, which makes her defeatable by Goku with his incomplete Ultra Instinct.

In other words, SSj2 Kefla ~ 2nd Omen > 1st Omen > SSj Kefla = U7 Spirit Bomb > KKx20 Goku

[Grand Marshal 1]

However Omen, especially in the anime, is a universal multiplier on Goku's stats. Speed, strength, durab, reaction speed etc. The latter being the most improved and refined.


That much isn't ambiguous. But Kefla, being the hotpot of shit she is, makes this harder.

So imo:

God Goku < Base Kefla < Blue Goku < Blue KK Goku ≈ SS Kefla < SS2 Kefla < Blue KK×20 Goku < Overloaded Kefla < Omen Goku

Makes no sense, SSj2 Kefla surpassed Omen Phase 1, SSJ Kefla rivaled the spirit bomb, and SSj2 Kefla felt Omen was wimpy and can one-shot Omen in the end, it's very simple to see that power wise SSJ2 Kefla > Omen

Which frankly makes sense but clearly depends on how you scale the ToP. Omen overpowered Kefla, hense her reaction, her power struggle and her demise. It's wasn't just the moves or the refined attacks. But when she approached Omen in strength it could be lethal for Goku.

Theres always someone stronger and someone weaker in a fight, so to say that the weaker individual may not shrug off attacks is up to hard debate.

Reactions isn't evidence, Whis, Kefla, and Roshi make it clear power wise she was above Omen, you can't just ignore 90% of the fight cause you have your own head canon.

Goku can make Jiren reacted, doesn't mean he was above Jiren

1st, I know you provided a scan from the Manga to prove your way of thinking, but I'm speaking strictly anime.

2nd, Goku stated that he was getting the hang of Omen. 2nd Omen was improving during the fight. Kefla surpassed 1st Omen, but not the second.

Once she does the attacks you describe Of, Goku blitzes her, makes her eyes pop, kicks her into the ground and has her holding her stomach saying that it's 'impossible', Goku charges at her and she defends with him taunting that she can't go further, ending it with another kick and a huge air blast...

What strength feats put Overloaded Kefla above Omen Goku exactly? Cause you like saying the others present false evidence and Headcanon, when I see no scans coming from you. And I described to you the whole later part of the fight.

Wasn't Freeza capable of killing Goku? But Goku tanked many of his hits? So what do you wish to imply here? That only the stronger person can kill you in a fight? What about all of Super? Hit could kill KK×10 Blue Goku if he wanted, never wielding that strength, Vegeta Blue could kill Black who stomped him previously etc.

Who's ignoring what exactly?

Fisherman is right here. Kefla was outright stated to be equal in energy to the Spirit Bomb, hence enticing the Ultra Instinct out of Goku. Whis said that. Specifically, he said that after Kefla one-kicked Goku into unconsciousness. There's no arguing this.

It's really easy actually. Fusion is insane. Kefla has a unique super saiyan transformation veeeery similar to Broly's, so she's much stronger than "just" a super saiyan Fusion. Yet, she's nowhere near Vegito or Gogeta in power, which makes her defeatable by Goku with his incomplete Ultra Instinct.

In other words, SSj2 Kefla ~ 2nd Omen > 1st Omen > SSj Kefla = U7 Spirit Bomb > KKx20 Goku

Don't know how that comes into clash with my power scale from previously. It's pretty evident that Goku has grown enough by that time that Blue KK ≈ Blue KK×20 from early ToP.

Kefla being relative to Omen in her supercharged state is her wielding far more strength than normal SS2 and is still not enough. She may be able to kill Goku, but for the reasons I stated earlier, why shouldn't she?

2nd Omen is above her. Not by a massive margin. But still above her.

[DestructoDisc]

17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

7-3 was already beaten up by Gohan and Piccolo before 17 started fighting him. He wasn't at full power.

[Miracles]

What exactly was so impressive about Saganbo anyway? People keep using him to wank Goku to insane levels.

He beat Gohan and 17. So what? Both of them are not impressive. Gohan stalemated a nerfed fusion, was stated as being weaker than Goku in the ToP and 17 is even weaker than him.

Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

17 beat up a 7-3 with Moro's old copy not Gohan's.

That's right! Thanks for the correction.

What exactly was so impressive about Saganbo anyway? People keep using him to wank Goku to insane levels.

He beat Gohan and 17. So what? Both of them are not impressive. Gohan stalemated a nerfed fusion, was stated as being weaker than Goku in the ToP and 17 is even weaker than him.

Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

All that praise only to get 'matched'' by Gohan who was weaker than Goku as per the story. Compared to other manga fusions, she was underwhelming. Gohan being unrecognizable doesn't tell us anything btw. He could be way stronger yet still weaker than ToP Goku.

As for 17. He was as strong as Goku/Vegeta back in the ToP but weaker than Gohan now who may or may not be weaker than ToP Goku. Possible retcon? Wouldn't be the first time.

You are right. Piccolo did state that Gohan was the strongest person on earth when Goku and Vegeta were absent. So that would mean that 17 is indeed weaker than Gohan right now. However, I think both of us get the point that Gohan and 17 are praised to be incredibly strong. They are riding off of their hype from last arc. Hence why Saganbo baby shaking all of them at once is suppose to be impressive.

17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

7-3 was already beaten up by Gohan and Piccolo before 17 started fighting him. He wasn't at full power.

Yeah, that's possible.

[Magnificent Ponta]

*snip*

You made the point much clearer. Thank you. But still I disagree. I don’t think you can separate “power projection” from “powerlevel”.

If we understand 'power level' to mean 'the size of one's ki represented as a number' (and I think that's the accepted definition), then I would argue that 'power projection' is precisely not identifiable with 'power level'.

I think the clearest view of the bifurcation between power level and power projection we have so far comes from Chapter 39, where Roshi defeats Kahseral using his pseudo-Ultra Instinct. Kahseral has a power readout akin to that of a Scouter on Roshi, and says "How can this be...? Every indication points to your power level being low as dirt, so why can't I hit you...?"

It's clear that the story is showing us that what Roshi's doing is something very new (and doubles down on that message when he fights Jiren), so it's clear he's not just 'tricking' the scouter by amplifying his ki in some way, which we've seen lots of times before. What he's doing is projecting his power in such a way that Kahseral can't keep up with his movements, or defend himself against Roshi's counterattack. That Roshi isn't just exploiting Kahseral's openings or doing something merely technical or 'skilful' when he does this is reiterated when he shows it off again in Chapter 57, and Miza exclaims, "What's this old fart's deal?! I never ran across someone who got stronger with their eyes covered!!"; so, by projecting his power in this way, it's also clear that Roshi is getting stronger, just not in the traditional sense of getting a larger ki.

This is obviously a radically different view of "power" or "strength" to the one Dragon Ball has given up to this point, but it's also being portrayed as the real way forward (as opposed to an endless escalation of transformations that make one's ki bigger), both for Goku in Ultra Instinct and for Vegeta in Spirit Control.

If someone with a scouter were to measure Vegeta’s battle power at that moment, it would probably show how much powerful it is. If Vegeta shots that ki blast against a mirror, but a mirror that didn’t experience the same lessons, we can agree that the current Vegeta would win, but do you think a scouter would registry the same number to the two blasts?

So, this is a really interesting question that gets to the heart of it - I have to say, based on what I've said above, that a scouter wouldn't be able to interpret the difference. To use an analogy, it would be like getting a stick figure to 'interpret' a cube - it would lack the appropriate frame of reference to accurately depict what it's being shown.

A contrary example of the difference between 'power level' and 'power projection' can be provided between two people with equal power levels - compare, for example, Goku from the Saiyan arc, using Kaio-Ken x3, and Vegeta at the beginning of the Freeza arc. In 'power level' (ki size) terms, they are both at 24,000. If we were to ask who would win, we'd probably say Vegeta once Goku loses too much stamina and gets damaged from using the attack. All well and good. But if we were to ask which of the two would have the stronger attacks, we'd probably have traditionally said that, until Goku's power level starts to drop, their attacks will have exactly the same strength, as they have the same power level.

But Dragon Ball Super explicitly debunks that idea when Goku uses his Kaio-Ken-esque attack against Jiren in Chapter 39. Although Goku goes for "pure power", and Beerus tells us "Goku's power just shot up", his attack does very little, and Jiren simply tells him, "Power gained by destroying your body can't necessarily be wielded properly." Goku's ki gets much bigger, but the end result doesn't scale up to match the ki increase. So, we'd be forced to conclude from this exchange that Kaio-Ken x3 Goku (Saiyan Arc) literally wouldn't hit as hard with his attacks as Vegeta (Early Freeza Arc), because while using the technique, his power projection ability would actually be diminished in comparison.

I accept that all this is more than a little counter-intuitive, but it is also what Super is telling us at the moment.

[ankokudaishogun]

"Power Level" is "Amount of Ki in numeric form"
Ki can be manipulated so to increase or decrease.
Ki can be projected to leave the body.
The Power Level of projected Ki varies depending on the technique.

It's therefore possible to project Ki with a Power Level different from the Power Level of the "body"

[ZombieVito]

Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

17 beat up a 7-3 with Moro's old copy not Gohan's.

That's right! Thanks for the correction.

Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

All that praise only to get 'matched'' by Gohan who was weaker than Goku as per the story. Compared to other manga fusions, she was underwhelming. Gohan being unrecognizable doesn't tell us anything btw. He could be way stronger yet still weaker than ToP Goku.

As for 17. He was as strong as Goku/Vegeta back in the ToP but weaker than Gohan now who may or may not be weaker than ToP Goku. Possible retcon? Wouldn't be the first time.

You are right. Piccolo did state that Gohan was the strongest person on earth when Goku and Vegeta were absent. So that would mean that 17 is indeed weaker than Gohan right now. However, I think both of us get the point that Gohan and 17 are praised to be incredibly strong. They are riding off of their hype from last arc. Hence why Saganbo baby shaking all of them at once is suppose to be impressive.

17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

7-3 was already beaten up by Gohan and Piccolo before 17 started fighting him. He wasn't at full power.

Yeah, that's possible.

But 7-3 has unlimited stamina.

[Miracles]

17 beat up a 7-3 with Moro's old copy not Gohan's.

That's right! Thanks for the correction.

All that praise only to get 'matched'' by Gohan who was weaker than Goku as per the story. Compared to other manga fusions, she was underwhelming. Gohan being unrecognizable doesn't tell us anything btw. He could be way stronger yet still weaker than ToP Goku.

As for 17. He was as strong as Goku/Vegeta back in the ToP but weaker than Gohan now who may or may not be weaker than ToP Goku. Possible retcon? Wouldn't be the first time.

You are right. Piccolo did state that Gohan was the strongest person on earth when Goku and Vegeta were absent. So that would mean that 17 is indeed weaker than Gohan right now. However, I think both of us get the point that Gohan and 17 are praised to be incredibly strong. They are riding off of their hype from last arc. Hence why Saganbo baby shaking all of them at once is suppose to be impressive.

7-3 was already beaten up by Gohan and Piccolo before 17 started fighting him. He wasn't at full power.

Yeah, that's possible.

But 7-3 has unlimited stamina.

That's another truth bomb, you dropped.

[Magnificent Ponta]

So, on the subject of OG73-I and his copy ability, I think it's important to make some slightly pedantic distinctions to try to understand what's going on with him and his overall strength:

• He's stated to be able to copy abilities of others,

• These abilities are as strong/effective as if the users themselves used them, and

• This extends from natural species abilities and esoteric ki abilities, to 'moves' as simple as punches and kicks.

What he is not stated to do, as a rule, is to himself become as strong as the person he's copied - that is, intrinsically. So, for instance, if he copies Gohan's abilities, he can throw a harder punch or shoot a more powerful ki blast than if he's using Piccolo's abilities, because those are things that Gohan can do. But it doesn't mean that he intrinsically has Gohan's power in himself. While Piccolo thinks of it as useful to consider it like fighting a perfect personal copy, in the strictest sense this isn't quite right, as OG73-I retains his own characteristics (like infinite stamina) in addition to Piccolo's moves.

This explains why, for instance, Shimorekka can insist that it would have been better for OG73-I to copy Gohan than Piccolo - harder-hitting abilities all around - but at the same time, Android 17 can say he "seems pretty weak to me", even when OG73-I is using Moro's ability set. He's not becoming as strong as Moro when he uses the ability set; he's just using his magical abilities to the same strength that Moro would when using them. This is a fine distinction, but it does make a difference; OG73-I would only be able to take a hit, for instance, as well as he ever could himself, not as well as Moro could (because that characteristic would be an epiphenomenon reliant on Moro's actual power, rather than a 'move' he uses).

However, he has also (and, Moro implies, unusually) backed up a "complete copy" of all Moro's abilities and characteristics "in stock", so even though it looks like he never uses this complete copy for himself, it's nevertheless there to restore Moro's power when he eats him. That this is unusual is implied when Moro says, "It wasn't only my magic that I had Seven-Three copy [...] I was able to create a complete backup within him." This indicates that the copy ability OG73-I uses is actually more selective/restricted than just basically becoming a copy of the person he touches; rather, that's a special and unusually thorough arrangement Moro's made for his own benefit.

[Xeno Goku Black]

what MUI did to FP Jiren is a poor mans comparison to what SSj2 Kid Gohan did to perfect Cell

And so was Legendary Super Saiyan Broly beating around Golden Frieza for an hour. Jiren couldn't do to Android 17 what Gohan did to Perfect Cell and he was dozens of times stronger than him. So that's not an argument.

Why would they bother to give that quote if they only got 1% stronger ? Your low balling now.

He wasn't stronger than ever anyway as nothing Goku did alone in that movie showed that he surpassed the Ultra Instinct that he used against Jiren. So he was not stronger than ever.

meaning the Broly movie takes place months after the TOP since Bulla hair is grown out

Therefore is irrelevant as a similar time period happened between other arcs with no notable improvement or in some cases Goku actually getting weaker because nothing happened in that time.

Your ignoring feats and statements then cause I posted the scans before.

Scans that proved absolutely nothing whatsoever.

[dragonball0900]

What exactly was so impressive about Saganbo anyway? People keep using him to wank Goku to insane levels.

He beat Gohan and 17. So what? Both of them are not impressive. Gohan stalemated a nerfed fusion, was stated as being weaker than Goku in the ToP and 17 is even weaker than him.

Even Piccolo is stronger than 17 now. Plus 17 was much weaker than Gohan in the ToP, who was also weaker than SSB Goku by statements.

The fact is that Saganbo beating all of them is somewhat impressive due to the fact that Gohan (and Piccolo) got considerably powerful since last time, but even after that they were still nothing.

Even though Gohan stalemated Kefla, they weren't that far below SSB Goku/Vegeta. And since Gohan was even even stronger since then (it's clear that he should already be stronger than ToP SSB levels), and STILL got dominated, it means that Saganbo beating all of them is quite a feat, specially when it comes to Gohan.

Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

Kefla wasn't leagues above Kale. She was actually stated to have the same power as Kale. And we need to remember that Kale was already running out of stamina, and was getting weaker as time went on. It wasn't until she became Kefla when she had Kale's strength at max (which explains why she was "stronger" for the Pride Troopers). But they were still weaker than SSB Goku/Vegeta and Golden Frieza at their full power.

And also, 17 did NOT defeat 73 with Gohan's powers. He defeated 73 with a previous weaker version of Moro's powers. It's crazy to think 17 is stronger than Gohan at all. Specially since the latter increased his strength to considerably degrees. Piccolo did so too.

[Magnificent Ponta]

He defeated 73 with a previous weaker version of Moro's powers.

Where is this 'weaker version of Moro's powers' position coming from? The whole premise of Moro's restoration is that his fully-powered self is backed up in OG73-I at this point.

[dragonball0900]

He defeated 73 with a previous weaker version of Moro's powers.

Where is this 'weaker version of Moro's powers' position coming from? The whole premise of Moro's restoration is that his fully-powered self is backed up in OG73-I at this point.

Why would that be from the way stronger version of Moro? That doesn't make any sense. Otherwise, 73 would have easily solo'd all the fighters better than Saganbo.

73 only had power from Moro BEFORE the 2 months. 17 was only able to beat that Moro, who is far weaker than the one from currently.

Before the 2 months, Gohan is stated to be the strongest person on Earth behind Goku and Vegeta, and after the 2 months, he was stated to have grown considerably stronger and barely recognizable by Goku. Then we have both Gohan and Piccolo holding their own FAR better than 17 and 18 against both Saganbo and Moro,. The androids were treated as fodder.

17 is not stronger than Gohan. That is NOT what the story is telling us. You shouldn't overrate 17 like that.

[Magnificent Ponta]

17 is not stronger than Gohan. That is NOT what the story is telling us. You shouldn't overrate 17 like that.

And that's not what I'm telling you, either. I agree with you that 17 is probably weaker than Gohan.

What I'm telling you is this:

So, on the subject of OG73-I and his copy ability, I think it's important to make some slightly pedantic distinctions to try to understand what's going on with him and his overall strength:

• He's stated to be able to copy abilities of others,

• These abilities are as strong/effective as if the users themselves used them, and

• This extends from natural species abilities and esoteric ki abilities, to 'moves' as simple as punches and kicks.

What he is not stated to do, as a rule, is to himself become as strong as the person he's copied - that is, intrinsically. So, for instance, if he copies Gohan's abilities, he can throw a harder punch or shoot a more powerful ki blast than if he's using Piccolo's abilities, because those are things that Gohan can do. But it doesn't mean that he intrinsically has Gohan's power in himself. While Piccolo thinks of it as useful to consider it like fighting a perfect personal copy, in the strictest sense this isn't quite right, as OG73-I retains his own characteristics (like infinite stamina) in addition to Piccolo's moves.

This explains why, for instance, Shimorekka can insist that it would have been better for OG73-I to copy Gohan than Piccolo - harder-hitting abilities all around - but at the same time, Android 17 can say he "seems pretty weak to me", even when OG73-I is using Moro's ability set. He's not becoming as strong as Moro when he uses the ability set; he's just using his magical abilities to the same strength that Moro would when using them. This is a fine distinction, but it does make a difference; OG73-I would only be able to take a hit, for instance, as well as he ever could himself, not as well as Moro could (because that characteristic would be an epiphenomenon reliant on Moro's actual power, rather than a 'move' he uses).

So, from that perspective, it really makes no difference which Moro he has copied - it makes no difference to his personal intrinsic power, so 17 can beat him no matter which Moro he copies. OG73-I doesn't actually even make any 'moves' in his fight with 17, so it's not like he actually uses Moro's power in any sense anyway.

It only makes a difference from Moro's perspective, as with the back-up copy, and Moro becoming stronger than he ever was before necessitates him having his fullest power to draw from.

Else you're basically saying that Moro with "barely a scrap of power" + Moro from 2 months ago + OG73-I > Moro at max on Earth.

Is that really what you're saying? I can't see it, myself.

[dragonball0900]

And that's not what I'm telling you, either. I agree with you that 17 is probably weaker than Gohan.

He is certainly weaker than Gohan though. That shouldn't even be a debate. Gohan was already much stronger in the ToP, and then got even stronger and barely recognizable according to Goku.

Gohan would clearly beat 17 easily. He even held his own and had better feats against Saganbo and Moro.

So, from that perspective, it really makes no difference which Moro he has copied - it makes no difference to his personal intrinsic power, so 17 can beat him no matter which Moro he copies. OG73-I doesn't actually even make any 'moves' in his fight with 17, so it's not like he actually uses Moro's power in any sense anyway.

It only makes a difference from Moro's perspective, as with the back-up copy, and Moro becoming stronger than he ever was before necessitates him having his fullest power to draw from.

Else you're basically saying that Moro with "barely a scrap of power" + Moro from 2 months ago + OG73-I > Moro at max on Earth.

Is that really what you're saying? I can't see it, myself.

I agree with you there actually. He only copied his abilities. And it makes much more sense why 17 was able to beat him.

Also I noticed that I confused you with the other guy I was replying to that said 17 was able to "beat 73 with Gohan's strength", which is just pure nonsense. That's why I replied you in a different context. So I'm sorry about that.

But still, 17 shouldn't be anywhere near Gohan's strength. Even Piccolo is shown to be stronger than him now, based on how each performed against Saganbo/Moro.

[Magnificent Ponta]

He is certainly weaker than Gohan though. That shouldn't even be a debate. Gohan was already much stronger in the ToP, and then got even stronger and barely recognizable according to Goku.

Gohan would clearly beat 17 easily. He even held his own and had better feats against Saganbo and Moro.

Sure, I'm happy to agree with you on this. The only reason I hedged it, to be honest, is that Super isn't always entirely forthright about showing us just how much stronger all the characters have become, all the time. My inkling, for whatever it's worth, is that 17 has probably barely changed since the Tournament of Power, but that's just a guess (he may have trained), so I wanted to leave it open.

I agree with you there actually. He only copied his abilities. And it makes much more sense why 17 was able to beat him.

Good, I'm glad - it seems to be the explanation that makes best sense across OG73-I's showings while keeping the relative powers around it straight.

Also I noticed that I confused you with the other guy I was replying to that said 17 was able to "beat 73 with Gohan's strength", which is just pure nonsense. That's why I replied you in a different context. So I'm sorry about that.

No problem. For future reference, I'm the nipple guy

[Miracles]

Contrary to some views, the story itself praised such characters. 17 was stated to be "just about" as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Gohan stalemated a fusion who was "Leagues above" Kale. Kefla was so strong, Vados stated she possibly could be "unmatched." These narrative points do not support the theory of Kefla being weakened when fused.

In this current arc, Gohan was defined to be "barely recognized" by Goku. Meaning that he is no comparison to what he was in the TOP.
17 was body bagging 7-3 who had copied Gohan's powers and techniques too. According to the story, it's impressive how Saganbo tossed them aside like children.

Kefla wasn't leagues above Kale. She was actually stated to have the same power as Kale. And we need to remember that Kale was already running out of stamina, and was getting weaker as time went on. It wasn't until she became Kefla when she had Kale's strength at max (which explains why she was "stronger" for the Pride Troopers). But they were still weaker than SSB Goku/Vegeta and Golden Frieza at their full power.

And also, 17 did NOT defeat 73 with Gohan's powers. He defeated 73 with a previous weaker version of Moro's powers. It's crazy to think 17 is stronger than Gohan at all. Specially since the latter increased his strength to considerably degrees. Piccolo did so too.

Yes. I already corrected myself when I remembered it was stated that Gohan was the strongest on earth when Goku/Vegeta are absent. I was already corrected on 17 not defeating 7-3 with Gohan's powers.

However, as far as your statement in bold...

[dragonball0900]

No problem. For future reference, I'm the nipple guy

Yeah. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.

Yes. I already corrected myself when I remembered it was stated that Gohan was the strongest on earth when Goku/Vegeta are absent. I was already corrected on 17 not defeating 7-3 with Gohan's powers.

However, as far as your statement in bold...

Oh, I see. That's great then. Sorry for not seeing those posts from before.

As for Kale, I believe Kefla having Caulifla's "battle sense" (as Vados mentioned) is what made her movements seem far superior to before, since she is no longer a raging monster. Plus as I mentioned, Kale was already lower in energy before they fused, to the point when the Pride Troopers were able to keep up with her, so I guess being Kefla is what made her return to her "peak" strength and let her movements be "leagues" above pre fusion. It was more of a combination of getting stronger and also being more skilled.

[ankokudaishogun]

Manga Kale: shit martial artist, super power-level
Manga Caulifla: super martial artist, shit power-level
Manga Kefla: super martial artist, super power-level

Even in the event of Kefla being somehow weaker than Kale as pure power-level goes, Caulifla's martial ability would make Kefla use that power so much better it would result into a much greater efficiency and effectiveness, making Kefla de facto stronger

[Miracles]

No problem. For future reference, I'm the nipple guy

Yeah. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.

Yes. I already corrected myself when I remembered it was stated that Gohan was the strongest on earth when Goku/Vegeta are absent. I was already corrected on 17 not defeating 7-3 with Gohan's powers.

However, as far as your statement in bold...

Oh, I see. That's great then. Sorry for not seeing those posts from before.

As for Kale, I believe Kefla having Caulifla's "battle sense" (as Vados mentioned) is what made her movements seem far superior to before, since she is no longer a raging monster. Plus as I mentioned, Kale was already lower in energy before they fused, to the point when the Pride Troopers were able to keep up with her, so I guess being Kefla is what made her return to her "peak" strength and let her movements be "leagues" above pre fusion. It was more of a combination of getting stronger and also being more skilled.

It's a possibility. I don't see how one's instinct for battle would make one's moves "leagues above" Kale's.
That sounds more like a power level criteria.