Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

I’m also wondering if perhaps Piccolo’s cryptic comments are meant to indicate that UI Sign is a general, relatively static level of power as well? He praises Goku’s SSB as being stronger than before, but when asked about UI Sign, he says it’s hard to tell.

That makes sense. There might be an upper limit of power for mortals that can't be surpassed without UI. All the GoDs are from different races but more or less in the same tier and there probably isn't a huge gap between the weakest and strongest GoD. The strongest mortals like Jiren and Broly are around that power or slightly above it but still weaker than MUI. I think Beerus, Broly, or Jiren after mastering UI would be close to MUI Goku even though they would have vastly different power in "base". It's not a Saiyan exclusive transformation so it might not have the same rules as a set multiplier times a previous form.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I’m also wondering if perhaps Piccolo’s cryptic comments are meant to indicate that UI Sign is a general, relatively static level of power as well? He praises Goku’s SSB as being stronger than before, but when asked about UI Sign, he says it’s hard to tell.

That makes sense. There might be an upper limit of power for mortals that can't be surpassed without UI. All the GoDs are from different races but more or less in the same tier and there probably isn't a huge gap between the weakest and strongest GoD. The strongest mortals like Jiren and Broly are around that power or slightly above it but still weaker than MUI. I think Beerus, Broly, or Jiren after mastering UI would be close to MUI Goku even though they would have vastly different power in "base". It's not a Saiyan exclusive transformation so it might not have the same rules as a set multiplier times a previous form.

Not to mention the fact that Ultra Instinct as we know it may operate in such a way only due to Saiyan physiology. Which means, should have Jiren unlocked the power of Ultra Instinct, he would not look any different whether he used the complete or incomplete version.

We know no one but angels has gained access to the complete version, but imo, Saiyan bodies simply behave too differently (given their ability to transform) for us to argue how strong MUI Jiren or Freeza would be.

Like the limiters in One Punch Man. A set level of power someone can't surpass. Only break through via limit breaking and we have seen that a lot in DBS, but it's possible that the MUI level of power is so strong that you can never hope to 'limit-break' it and go beyond.

[HeroR]

I’m also wondering if perhaps Piccolo’s cryptic comments are meant to indicate that UI Sign is a general, relatively static level of power as well? He praises Goku’s SSB as being stronger than before, but when asked about UI Sign, he says it’s hard to tell.

That makes sense. There might be an upper limit of power for mortals that can't be surpassed without UI. All the GoDs are from different races but more or less in the same tier and there probably isn't a huge gap between the weakest and strongest GoD. The strongest mortals like Jiren and Broly are around that power or slightly above it but still weaker than MUI. I think Beerus, Broly, or Jiren after mastering UI would be close to MUI Goku even though they would have vastly different power in "base". It's not a Saiyan exclusive transformation so it might not have the same rules as a set multiplier times a previous form.

Not to mention the fact that Ultra Instinct as we know it may operate in such a way only due to Saiyan physiology. Which means, should have Jiren unlocked the power of Ultra Instinct, he would not look any different whether he used the complete or incomplete version.

We know no one but angels has gained access to the complete version, but imo, Saiyan bodies simply behave too differently (given their ability to transform) for us to argue how strong MUI Jiren or Freeza would be.

Like the limiters in One Punch Man. A set level of power someone can't surpass. Only break through via limit breaking and we have seen that a lot in DBS, but it's possible that the MUI level of power is so strong that you can never hope to 'limit-break' it and go beyond.

Except in the manga, when Goku went Omen for the first time, Beerus' mouth dropped like he recognized the form.

[Thani]

He also did it in the anime. Both in Omen and in the Completed variant.

I'm pretty sure UI is supposed to have that aura and the silver hair.

[Grand Marshal 1]

That makes sense. There might be an upper limit of power for mortals that can't be surpassed without UI. All the GoDs are from different races but more or less in the same tier and there probably isn't a huge gap between the weakest and strongest GoD. The strongest mortals like Jiren and Broly are around that power or slightly above it but still weaker than MUI. I think Beerus, Broly, or Jiren after mastering UI would be close to MUI Goku even though they would have vastly different power in "base". It's not a Saiyan exclusive transformation so it might not have the same rules as a set multiplier times a previous form.

Not to mention the fact that Ultra Instinct as we know it may operate in such a way only due to Saiyan physiology. Which means, should have Jiren unlocked the power of Ultra Instinct, he would not look any different whether he used the complete or incomplete version.

We know no one but angels has gained access to the complete version, but imo, Saiyan bodies simply behave too differently (given their ability to transform) for us to argue how strong MUI Jiren or Freeza would be.

Like the limiters in One Punch Man. A set level of power someone can't surpass. Only break through via limit breaking and we have seen that a lot in DBS, but it's possible that the MUI level of power is so strong that you can never hope to 'limit-break' it and go beyond.

Except in the manga, when Goku went Omen for the first time, Beerus' mouth dropped like he recognized the form.

The movement and the calm nature of the 'form' yes. But at least in the anime it was unknown why Goku generated so much heat.

I can see the GoDs identifying the UI principle in a fighter, less the form they use. And I would assume that the nearest they have learned of the ability is below or on par with Omen.

Now, it was pretty much obvious that when he gained the silver hair he would also complete the ability, but nothing rly indicates that would have happened with any other non-Saiyan.

[ZombieVito]

Perhaps in that respect it’s a bit like SSG being implied to be only 10x or so SSJ during the battle with Broly, instead of retaining the massive multiplier it should have had initially?

Wait, what?

Please elaborate.

[GodVegetto91]

Anyone who seriously believes that an MUI Broly, MUI Jiren, or even a Current (Post Spirit Control training) MUI Vegeta would NOT surpass MUI Goku seriously need to think again... Because this is literally the most insane thing I have ever read on this forum, (and I’ve read a lot.) Multipliers are ALWAYS a thing, wether you like it or not, and if your Base forms and even NON-UI strongest forms (SSBE with Spirit Control and Broly’s Green Haired SSJ form) are much stronger than all of Goku’s Non-UI forms, then their UI Forms should naturally, obviously, and self evidently, be stronger aswell! This should be a no brainer, I can’t even believe I need to point this out.

If current Broly were to get UI, he would be stronger than current MUI Goku.

Same for Vegeta, same for Jiren.

There is a huge assumption going on by some of you here. Just because you’re assuming something doesn’t make that thing objectively true.

As for wether Vegeta may be able to surpass MUI Goku in the future...

Yes, that is surely possible... But in order for him to be able to do that, he would absolutely need to get his ass back up on those spikey poles high up in the sky on Planet Yardrat and meditate up there, for the next 10 years!

While MUI Goku goes to train with Whis.

The stronger your Base Form and other Transformations are, the stronger your Ultra Instinct form is!

[Grand Marshal 1]

I'm talking on how MUI looks and functions, not it's power. I simply tried to elaborate on ideas from previous posters, to clarify.

[HeroR]

Not to mention the fact that Ultra Instinct as we know it may operate in such a way only due to Saiyan physiology. Which means, should have Jiren unlocked the power of Ultra Instinct, he would not look any different whether he used the complete or incomplete version.

We know no one but angels has gained access to the complete version, but imo, Saiyan bodies simply behave too differently (given their ability to transform) for us to argue how strong MUI Jiren or Freeza would be.

Like the limiters in One Punch Man. A set level of power someone can't surpass. Only break through via limit breaking and we have seen that a lot in DBS, but it's possible that the MUI level of power is so strong that you can never hope to 'limit-break' it and go beyond.

Except in the manga, when Goku went Omen for the first time, Beerus' mouth dropped like he recognized the form.

The movement and the calm nature of the 'form' yes. But at least in the anime it was unknown why Goku generated so much heat.

I can see the GoDs identifying the UI principle in a fighter, less the form they use. And I would assume that the nearest they have learned of the ability is below or on par with Omen.

Now, it was pretty much obvious that when he gained the silver hair he would also complete the ability, but nothing rly indicates that would have happened with any other non-Saiyan.

In the manga, Beerus grasped in shocked without Goku showing any UI movesets.

Even in the anime, Beerus said ‘look at that form’ when Goku completed UI.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Perhaps in that respect it’s a bit like SSG being implied to be only 10x or so SSJ during the battle with Broly, instead of retaining the massive multiplier it should have had initially?

Wait, what?

Please elaborate.

Sorry, referring to the bit where Broly goes from overpowering SSJ Vegeta to overpowering SSG Vegeta once he activates Ikari mode. Of course, Broly continues to grow from there within the same state, but if he’s tapping into Ozaru, his power should be 10x what it was up to that point, or so the logic goes.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With Broly, it's either a case of "Oozaru = 10 times" straight up, or a "as strong as the plot needs the power-up to be" kinda deal.

Something to bear in mind, though, is that SSG Vegeta was wrecking Broly, who had powered up to be a match for Super Saiyan, a lot more compared to when he was beating on the initial base form of Broly before he adapted and fully powered up his normal state.

It could be a case of him deciding to not mess around, or it could be a case of the boost from SS to SSG being genuinely larger than base to SS.

Personally, I feel like making the jumps between all the forms relatively equal makes the most sense to me. Base to SS is 50 times, SS to SSG is 50 times, and SSG to SSB is 50 times.

[Grand Marshal 1]

With Broly, it's either a case of "Oozaru = 10 times" straight up, or a "as strong as the plot needs the power-up to be" kinda deal.

Something to bear in mind, though, is that SSG Vegeta was wrecking Broly, who had powered up to be a match for Super Saiyan, a lot more compared to when he was beating on the initial base form of Broly before he adapted and fully powered up his normal state.

It could be a case of him deciding to not mess around, or it could be a case of the boost from SS to SSG being genuinely larger than base to SS.

Personally, I feel like making the jumps between all the forms relatively equal makes the most sense to me. Base to SS is 50 times, SS to SSG is 50 times, and SSG to SSB is 50 times.

Yeah more or less. I just think that SS to SSG is much bigger and SSG to SSB smaller, but the result is the same.

[ZombieVito]

Interesting.

I'm going to rewatch Broly today and pay close attention to Broly vs Vegeta.

[Skar]

Like the limiters in One Punch Man. A set level of power someone can't surpass. Only break through via limit breaking and we have seen that a lot in DBS, but it's possible that the MUI level of power is so strong that you can never hope to 'limit-break' it and go beyond.

Yeah I was thinking something that. It makes sense when we consider the GoDs might vary in age but not that far apart in power. Even with all their training for possibly millions of years, they were still surpassed by Goku who achieved MUI. Broly surpassed all the forms Goku and Vegeta used against him in a few hours but even he should have a limit unless his power could keep rising until he surpasses the Angels, Grand Priest, and Zeno.

There is a huge assumption going on by some of you here. Just because you’re assuming something doesn’t make that thing objectively true.

Is anyone claiming their assumptions are objectively true? It's all speculation for now. Even if something is directed stated there can still be disagreements and different opinions on the meaning.

[GodVegetto91]

Like the limiters in One Punch Man. A set level of power someone can't surpass. Only break through via limit breaking and we have seen that a lot in DBS, but it's possible that the MUI level of power is so strong that you can never hope to 'limit-break' it and go beyond.

Yeah I was thinking something that. It makes sense when we consider the GoDs might vary in age but not that far apart in power. Even with all their training for possibly millions of years, they were still surpassed by Goku who achieved MUI. Broly surpassed all the forms Goku and Vegeta used against him in a few hours but even he should have a limit unless his power could keep rising until he surpasses the Angels, Grand Priest, and Zeno.

There is a huge assumption going on by some of you here. Just because you’re assuming something doesn’t make that thing objectively true.

Is anyone claiming their assumptions are objectively true? It's all speculation for now. Even if something is directed stated there can still be disagreements and different opinions on the meaning.

Sure, people are perfectly allowed to speculate. I was merely pointing out the obvious. No hard feelings

Sometimes we can get confused by the story and be led to conclusions that make a lot less sense. Dragon Ball is ultimately a simple show which relies on math and multipliers ultimately.

[Lionel]

So here's a question -- how do others interpret Hit's pressure points style in the anime? Do they operate outside of power levels? Could Hit stop the heart of anyone if he wanted to or strike at some fatal region with success?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Like the limiters in One Punch Man. A set level of power someone can't surpass. Only break through via limit breaking and we have seen that a lot in DBS, but it's possible that the MUI level of power is so strong that you can never hope to 'limit-break' it and go beyond.

Yeah I was thinking something that. It makes sense when we consider the GoDs might vary in age but not that far apart in power. Even with all their training for possibly millions of years, they were still surpassed by Goku who achieved MUI. Broly surpassed all the forms Goku and Vegeta used against him in a few hours but even he should have a limit unless his power could keep rising until he surpasses the Angels, Grand Priest, and Zeno.

Which frankly would make sense. The cap of mortal power is that of Gods of Destruction. Which would also clarify why beings like SSB KK Vegito or SS4 KK XGogeta didn't feel all that more powerful than their normal peak power. Multipliers and all yes, but you could argue that standard multipliers can't break off the MUI ceiling, which would mean Vegito Blue or Vegito Blue KK×20 have a significantly less difference in strength.

Although the fusions themselves come into question as a mean of gaining power beyond normal conditions.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So here's a question -- how do others interpret Hit's pressure points style in the anime? Do they operate outside of power levels? Could Hit stop the heart of anyone if he wanted to or strike at some fatal region with success?

Anyone that Hit's attacks can penetrate will die. Someone with sufficient durability beyond Hit's AP, will tank the damage.

[Lionel]

So here's a question -- how do others interpret Hit's pressure points style in the anime? Do they operate outside of power levels? Could Hit stop the heart of anyone if he wanted to or strike at some fatal region with success?

Anyone that Hit's attacks can penetrate will die. Someone with sufficient durability beyond Hit's AP, will tank the damage.

So even locations like the eyes, groin, or Adam's Apple would be immune thanks to power level?

[Grand Marshal 1]

So here's a question -- how do others interpret Hit's pressure points style in the anime? Do they operate outside of power levels? Could Hit stop the heart of anyone if he wanted to or strike at some fatal region with success?

Anyone that Hit's attacks can penetrate will die. Someone with sufficient durability beyond Hit's AP, will tank the damage.

So even locations like the eyes, groin, or Adam's Apple would be immune thanks to power level?

Well these are norotious irl weak spots that haven't been exploited in dragon ball, unless I am forgetting something, so yes.

Durability > all

Assuming Hit's enemy doesn't possess the reaction speed to counter. Which is hardly the case given how durability, strength, speed etc all go up together die to the power level increase.

Besides, if the enemy is an alien, their weak points may entirely differ.