Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:27 pm

Thani wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:52 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:11 pm
Here's a question I was wondering about: How strong do you think the students at Tenshinhan's dojo are? (Excluding Yurin of course)

Are they just average humans who would lose to the likes of Mr. Satan? Or are they possibly early Dragonball level, knowing techniques like flight and Dodonpa? Do you think any of them could be as strong as the Crane Hermit or Taopaipai? (If not now, then potentially in the future)?
Probably the first assumption. They can't even show an aura and seem clueless about ki.
Well auras weren't that common in part 1 Dragonball, IIRC Roshi was the first to demonstrate one, but only when he was charging his strongest Kamehameha.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:39 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:46 pm
Akira Toriyama and his story he plotted out cares about the prophecy.
Same Akira that introduced broly and had him scale to at least beerus level, if not probably stronger lol fail
fish places Beerus as a future opponent. Akira Toriyama said future opponents are "always"" stronger than past opponents.


And Akira compared broly to that future opponent. As well as anyone who scaled above beerus like broly and whis and go etc lol so moot point.

So the next enemy status does apply to Beerus. Since he is reserved to be a future opponent. Broly's non factual statement based on "probably" was debunked by Moro, as he is the current enemy and is now more powerful than Broly.
Probably what ? Stronger ? lmfao think about the rubbish you say before saying it. Being Probably "stronger"means Broly is at least as strong as beerus, while having a great chance of being stronger. Hence the word probably, so if Moro is > broly, then he is > beerus

Neither can be more powerful than Beerus since he is destined for a later date with Goku and Vegeta. Which means Beerus will be stronger than all the previous.
Broly or vegito or gogeta are >>>>>> Goku and Vegeta so rubbish point lol the fact that they Only reach that tier means that they dont surpass either of those 3 at all lol

Go home superstar, your head canon is purely nonsense
You don't understand that a throw away line in "probably," based on nothing but uncertainty, has no authority on fact. Broly wasn't placed above Beerus, he was only assumed by theory to be. Therefore Broly's assumptive statement concerning Beerus was proven wrong by Moro's appearance. It does not mean Moro is stronger than Beerus, since he is stronger than Broly either. Broly was never outright stated to be even Beerus's level or stronger. Toriyama's next enemy "always" being stronger than the last is an eternal truth. That's why Moro is stronger than Broly. This is a fact. Beerus moves forward since the plot protects him with the prophecy. Making him a future opponent that will be stronger than all the past ones. That' includes Beerus being above Broly and Moro too.
Skar wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:06 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:22 pm
By definition, the assumptive theory based narratives, concerning Future Trunks arc Vegetto and Broly, in relation to Beerus can't be true. Their "comparison" to Beerus was nothing more than conjecture. Therefore those are overwritten by the fact that Toriyama's battles escalates every arc with each opponent. Moro has dethroned Broly, proving that Broly is not stronger than Beerus. Neither is Moro, since Beerus will remain a future opponent due to the prophecy and the fact that Toriyama's enemies"always" grow more powerful than the last.
What would be the point storywise to make a comparison to Beerus in three conservative arcs if the author intends for all of them to be false? Why wouldn't he just not include those lines?
The author used those hypothetical s to hype up Beerus. To keep Beerus power so mysteriously incredible that even those strong guys can not be said to be greater after all this time. If the author wanted them stronger than Beerus he would of just flatly said so. But for the sake of the plot, where the oracle fish's prophecy is concerned those supposed comparison's only reinforce just how long Goku/Vegeta's road is to get to Beerus's level.
Last edited by Miracles on Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:00 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:39 pm
The author used those hypothetical s to hype up Beerus. To keep Beerus power so mysteriously incredible that even those strong guys can not be said to be stronger after all this time. If the author wanted them stronger than Beerus he would of just flatly said so. But for the sake of the plot, where the oracle fish's prophecy is concerned those supposed comparison's only reinforce just how long Goku/Vegeta's road is to get to Beerus's level.
The problem here is this would require Toriyama to decide "I hope no one believes these multiple comparisons to Beerus by different characters in different arcs and instead remembers they're all false because of what the Oracle Fish said in BoG". MUI was presented as the ability that none of the GoDs could master so it doesn't make sense to me that Goku would need something even higher than that to surpass Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:10 pm

Skar wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:00 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:39 pm
The author used those hypothetical s to hype up Beerus. To keep Beerus power so mysteriously incredible that even those strong guys can not be said to be stronger after all this time. If the author wanted them stronger than Beerus he would of just flatly said so. But for the sake of the plot, where the oracle fish's prophecy is concerned those supposed comparison's only reinforce just how long Goku/Vegeta's road is to get to Beerus's level.
The problem here is this would require Toriyama to decide "I hope no one believes these multiple comparisons to Beerus by different characters in different arcs and instead remembers they're all false because of what the Oracle Fish said in BoG". MUI was presented as the ability that none of the GoDs could master so it doesn't make sense to me that Goku would need something even higher than that to surpass Beerus.
Who said Goku would need something higher? The problem is people take those vague statements about characters in relation to Beerus as fact. The author stated those as non substantives, meaning they aren't grounded in reality. So it leaves the author protected from narrative contradiction when Beerus fights UI Goku later in his "strongest" state. Which means Beerus surpassed all other previous combatants and it will remain consistent with the overall plot when the "always strongest" fight happens.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:43 am

Miracles wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:10 pm
Who said Goku would need something higher? The problem is people take those vague statements about characters in relation to Beerus as fact. The author stated those as non substantives, meaning they aren't grounded in reality. So it leaves the author protected from narrative contradiction when Beerus fights UI Goku later in his "strongest" state. Which means Beerus surpassed all other previous combatants and it will remain consistent with the overall plot when the "always strongest" fight happens.
Oh ok I might've misinterpreted your comment because I thought you meant MUI Goku was still weaker than Beerus. What's wrong with all these statements being true and the Blue fusions, Jiren, and Broly are close to Beerus as long as Goku surpasses them all once he fully controls MUI? I think there's some leeway if they're being compared to Beerus without UI. I feel more comfortable with that than assuming all these statements were intended to be false that came after one line in BoG.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:15 pm

You don't understand that a throw away line in "probably," based on nothing but uncertainty, has no authority on fact.


prob·a·bly
/ˈpräbəblē,ˈpräblē/
Learn to pronounce
adverb
adverb: probably

almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.


prob·​a·​bly | \ ˈprä-bə-blē
, ˈprä(b)-blē \
Definition of probably

: insofar as seems reasonably true, factual, or to be expected : without much doubt

Go learn the definition of probably superstar. As far as Goku concerned, most like Broly is > Beerus. And also you are focusing a lot on the probably meaning yet ignoring what was said after, he was said to be probably STRONGER, not as strong, but stronger.

Meaning Goku isn't pushing him to be = to Beerus, but beyond Beerus.
Broly wasn't placed above Beerus, he was only assumed by theory to be.
By theory ? Goku saw Beerus fight and saw Broly fight, and he thinks Broly is likely stronger. And Akira had wrote the movie thus moot point
Therefore Broly's assumptive statement concerning Beerus was proven wrong by Moro's appearance. It does not mean Moro is stronger than Beerus, since he is stronger than Broly either.
Broly was never outright stated to be even Beerus's level or stronger.
Wrong, Broly was never said outright to be STRONGER then Beerus, however the fact that Goku is believing that Broly is probably stronger means Broly is at least = to Beerus lmfao otherwise he wouldn't question if he was stronger.

So yes supergenius, if Moro > Broly, he goes > Beerus as well
Toriyama's next enemy "always" being stronger than the last is an eternal truth. That's why Moro is stronger than Broly. This is a fact. Beerus moves forward since the plot protects him with the prophecy. Making him a future opponent that will be stronger than all the past ones. That' includes Beerus being above Broly and Moro too.
Which is all nonsense considering Akira had Broly at least = to Beerus as stated above. Try harder buddy

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:32 pm

You don't got much to stand on if you're still holding onto something from 7 years ago. 7 years ago SSG was stronger than any fusion. Now it's fodder

Toriyama probably doesn't even remember the oracle fish lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:09 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:53 am
This is one of the rules of their test fight, but it doesn’t mean Beerus showed everything he got.
It wasn't a test fight? Perhaps technically due to it being meant as a reference for a tournament, but the GoDs were very much told to fight to the death on the order of the Omni-King. It only stopped because Zeno got bored and didn't want to see the end. It's noted that everyone was fighting completely seriously and Beerus WAS showing everything he's got in that fight.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:53 am
Care to explain in which novel and guide? I’ve only seen Goku talking about it in the movie. So far, in the movie continuity, Beerus only fought recently in Battle of Gods.
I believe he's referring to Frieza's statement in the novel that Broly as a Super Saiyan is the strongest being he's encountered. As far as guides go we only have VJump as a reference, which stated Broly was above even the Gods of Destruction during the advertising campaigns, and was probably meant to reference the line at the end of the movie referencing Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:57 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:09 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:53 am
This is one of the rules of their test fight, but it doesn’t mean Beerus showed everything he got.
It wasn't a test fight? Perhaps technically due to it being meant as a reference for a tournament, but the GoDs were very much told to fight to the death on the order of the Omni-King. It only stopped because Zeno got bored and didn't want to see the end. It's noted that everyone was fighting completely seriously and Beerus WAS showing everything he's got in that fight.
Indeed. Not only that, everyone was bloody and bruised by the end. So everyone was badly hurting everyone else. This alone showcases that the difference in pure power between them is not that significant.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:09 am

Thani wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:57 am
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:09 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:53 am
This is one of the rules of their test fight, but it doesn’t mean Beerus showed everything he got.
It wasn't a test fight? Perhaps technically due to it being meant as a reference for a tournament, but the GoDs were very much told to fight to the death on the order of the Omni-King. It only stopped because Zeno got bored and didn't want to see the end. It's noted that everyone was fighting completely seriously and Beerus WAS showing everything he's got in that fight.
Indeed. Not only that, everyone was bloody and bruised by the end. So everyone was badly hurting everyone else. This alone showcases that the difference in pure power between them is not that significant.
Agreed! Differences in performance definitely seemed like more of a skill and technique deal than power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:50 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:15 pm
You don't understand that a throw away line in "probably," based on nothing but uncertainty, has no authority on fact.


prob·a·bly
/ˈpräbəblē,ˈpräblē/
Learn to pronounce
adverb
adverb: probably

almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.


prob·​a·​bly | \ ˈprä-bə-blē
, ˈprä(b)-blē \
Definition of probably

: insofar as seems reasonably true, factual, or to be expected : without much doubt

Go learn the definition of probably superstar. As far as Goku concerned, most like Broly is > Beerus. And also you are focusing a lot on the probably meaning yet ignoring what was said after, he was said to be probably STRONGER, not as strong, but stronger.

Meaning Goku isn't pushing him to be = to Beerus, but beyond Beerus.
Broly wasn't placed above Beerus, he was only assumed by theory to be.
By theory ? Goku saw Beerus fight and saw Broly fight, and he thinks Broly is likely stronger. And Akira had wrote the movie thus moot point
Therefore Broly's assumptive statement concerning Beerus was proven wrong by Moro's appearance. It does not mean Moro is stronger than Beerus, since he is stronger than Broly either.
Broly was never outright stated to be even Beerus's level or stronger.
Wrong, Broly was never said outright to be STRONGER then Beerus, however the fact that Goku is believing that Broly is probably stronger means Broly is at least = to Beerus lmfao otherwise he wouldn't question if he was stronger.

So yes supergenius, if Moro > Broly, he goes > Beerus as well
Toriyama's next enemy "always" being stronger than the last is an eternal truth. That's why Moro is stronger than Broly. This is a fact. Beerus moves forward since the plot protects him with the prophecy. Making him a future opponent that will be stronger than all the past ones. That' includes Beerus being above Broly and Moro too.
Which is all nonsense considering Akira had Broly at least = to Beerus as stated above. Try harder buddy
Your working overtime trying to make the word probably, factual truth. Your definition shows the opposite You proved my point.
Moro is greater than Broly [This is a fact], that means Goku's guess about Broly and Beerus was proven false. Since Beerus only rivals will be Goku/Vegeta later. Cementing Beerus as the "always" stronger enemy, not Broly.
Skar wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:43 am
Miracles wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:10 pm
Who said Goku would need something higher? The problem is people take those vague statements about characters in relation to Beerus as fact. The author stated those as non substantives, meaning they aren't grounded in reality. So it leaves the author protected from narrative contradiction when Beerus fights UI Goku later in his "strongest" state. Which means Beerus surpassed all other previous combatants and it will remain consistent with the overall plot when the "always strongest" fight happens.
Oh ok I might've misinterpreted your comment because I thought you meant MUI Goku was still weaker than Beerus. What's wrong with all these statements being true and the Blue fusions, Jiren, and Broly are close to Beerus as long as Goku surpasses them all once he fully controls MUI? I think there's some leeway if they're being compared to Beerus without UI. I feel more comfortable with that than assuming all these statements were intended to be false that came after one line in BoG.
For example, Jiren can't be anywhere near Beerus, since TWO "always" stronger enemies are ahead of him; in Broly and Moro. Yet, Beerus is still reserved for much later. This is due to the future prophecy to take place. His time will come as the "always" stronger enemy. Therefore, Future Trunks Vegetto Blue was three arcs ago and we just escalated to an enemy last arc that needed a recent Blue Gogeta fusion [way more powerful than Vegetto FT] to overcome him. Broly will smoke Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc, since a recent, more powerful; full power fusion was needed for him just last arc. Meaning Beerus was way out of Vegetto's league in the Zamas arc. Due to the story's increase in scale. You can't have them just as strong or stronger than Beerus after all this time has passed. Toriyama's law does not allow it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:50 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:50 pm
For example, Jiren can't be anywhere near Beerus, since TWO "always" stronger enemies are ahead of him; in Broly and Moro. Yet, Beerus is still reserved for much later. This is due to the future prophecy to take place. His time will come as the "always" stronger enemy. Therefore, Future Trunks Vegetto Blue was three arcs ago and we just escalated to an enemy last arc that needed a recent Blue Gogeta fusion [way more powerful than Vegetto FT] to overcome him. Broly will smoke Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc, since a recent, more powerful; full power fusion was needed for him just last arc. Meaning Beerus was way out of Vegetto's league in the Zamas arc. Due to the story's increase in scale. You can't have them just as strong or stronger than Beerus after all this time has passed. Toriyama's law does not allow it.
When did Toriyama say this? If he said this years ago then the escalation between each antagonist might not be as big as before especially if it requires you to ignore every comparison to Beerus in the last three arcs. We don't know how much stronger Moro is compared to Jiren or Broly but it could be minor since they're all still weaker than MUI or the Blue fusions. Once again, it's difficult to believe all these statements were intended to be false. In any story, we generally assume a statement is true unless something contradicts it later. What you're arguing requires some mental gymnastics that no author would intend for his audience to do especially not a simple author like Toriyama.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:39 pm

Skar wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:50 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:50 pm
For example, Jiren can't be anywhere near Beerus, since TWO "always" stronger enemies are ahead of him; in Broly and Moro. Yet, Beerus is still reserved for much later. This is due to the future prophecy to take place. His time will come as the "always" stronger enemy. Therefore, Future Trunks Vegetto Blue was three arcs ago and we just escalated to an enemy last arc that needed a recent Blue Gogeta fusion [way more powerful than Vegetto FT] to overcome him. Broly will smoke Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc, since a recent, more powerful; full power fusion was needed for him just last arc. Meaning Beerus was way out of Vegetto's league in the Zamas arc. Due to the story's increase in scale. You can't have them just as strong or stronger than Beerus after all this time has passed. Toriyama's law does not allow it.
When did Toriyama say this? If he said this years ago then the escalation between each antagonist might not be as big as before especially if it requires you to ignore every comparison to Beerus in the last three arcs. We don't know how much stronger Moro is compared to Jiren or Broly but it could be minor since they're all still weaker than MUI or the Blue fusions. Once again, it's difficult to believe all these statements were intended to be false. In any story, we generally assume a statement is true unless something contradicts it later. What you're arguing requires some mental gymnastics that no author would intend for his audience to do especially not a simple author like Toriyama.
I'm the one stating facts. You guys are pushing non facts. The lines concerning Beerus with Broly and FT Vegetto are totally contradiction to fact. However, Toriyama's statement is totally facts. Along with the Oracle prophecy about Goku/Vegeta being Beerus future rivals. Toriyama said in a BoG 2013 interview and in 2003; in his fighting stories, he "always" [That means FOREVER] has the next enemy stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:52 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:39 pm
Skar wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:50 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:50 pm
For example, Jiren can't be anywhere near Beerus, since TWO "always" stronger enemies are ahead of him; in Broly and Moro. Yet, Beerus is still reserved for much later. This is due to the future prophecy to take place. His time will come as the "always" stronger enemy. Therefore, Future Trunks Vegetto Blue was three arcs ago and we just escalated to an enemy last arc that needed a recent Blue Gogeta fusion [way more powerful than Vegetto FT] to overcome him. Broly will smoke Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc, since a recent, more powerful; full power fusion was needed for him just last arc. Meaning Beerus was way out of Vegetto's league in the Zamas arc. Due to the story's increase in scale. You can't have them just as strong or stronger than Beerus after all this time has passed. Toriyama's law does not allow it.
When did Toriyama say this? If he said this years ago then the escalation between each antagonist might not be as big as before especially if it requires you to ignore every comparison to Beerus in the last three arcs. We don't know how much stronger Moro is compared to Jiren or Broly but it could be minor since they're all still weaker than MUI or the Blue fusions. Once again, it's difficult to believe all these statements were intended to be false. In any story, we generally assume a statement is true unless something contradicts it later. What you're arguing requires some mental gymnastics that no author would intend for his audience to do especially not a simple author like Toriyama.
I'm the one stating facts. You guys are pushing non facts. The lines concerning Beerus with Broly and FT Vegetto are totally contradiction to fact. However, Toriyama's statement is totally facts. Along with the Oracle prophecy about Goku/Vegeta being Beerus future rivals. Toriyama said in a BoG 2013 interview and in 2003; in his fighting stories, he "always" [That means FOREVER] has the next enemy stronger.
Even within super itself the "always stronger" rule isn't always true. Not just Beerus being stronger then Freeza, but Freeza in terms of pure strength is most probably stronger than the next main antagonist Hit (in the manga). Ssj god wipes the floor with him, and Hit has to power up to a state he can only hold for a few moments just to be able to make the time skip effect Goku. And blue is far enough above him to not even be affected at all by a full power Hit time skip, meaning Hit is not even at or around the same level as a super saiyan blue, while Freeza is blue tier.

Putting all your faith into old interviews, giving them a grandiose name such as "Toriyama's law", is the kind of thinking that will stop you taking the story at face value. In battle of gods era interviews, Toriyama stated that Goku will just use his ssj1 form from now on after fighting Beerus, and yet that couldn't be further from the truth. Goku compared Broly to Beerus for a reason, at least at the time of writing Toriyama probably had it in mind that they're in the same ball park of power. This doesn't mean he can't later change his mind, as he has many times.

And for the record, I do think that if a Beerus rematch with Goku does happen, then Beerus will probably turn out to be stronger than Broly/a match for UI Goku, but I certainly don't think that that's a fact because of these old interviews, and I certainly don't think people are factually wrong for thinking otherwise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:10 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:39 pm
Skar wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:50 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:50 pm
For example, Jiren can't be anywhere near Beerus, since TWO "always" stronger enemies are ahead of him; in Broly and Moro. Yet, Beerus is still reserved for much later. This is due to the future prophecy to take place. His time will come as the "always" stronger enemy. Therefore, Future Trunks Vegetto Blue was three arcs ago and we just escalated to an enemy last arc that needed a recent Blue Gogeta fusion [way more powerful than Vegetto FT] to overcome him. Broly will smoke Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc, since a recent, more powerful; full power fusion was needed for him just last arc. Meaning Beerus was way out of Vegetto's league in the Zamas arc. Due to the story's increase in scale. You can't have them just as strong or stronger than Beerus after all this time has passed. Toriyama's law does not allow it.
When did Toriyama say this? If he said this years ago then the escalation between each antagonist might not be as big as before especially if it requires you to ignore every comparison to Beerus in the last three arcs. We don't know how much stronger Moro is compared to Jiren or Broly but it could be minor since they're all still weaker than MUI or the Blue fusions. Once again, it's difficult to believe all these statements were intended to be false. In any story, we generally assume a statement is true unless something contradicts it later. What you're arguing requires some mental gymnastics that no author would intend for his audience to do especially not a simple author like Toriyama.
I'm the one stating facts. You guys are pushing non facts. The lines concerning Beerus with Broly and FT Vegetto are totally contradiction to fact. However, Toriyama's statement is totally facts. Along with the Oracle prophecy about Goku/Vegeta being Beerus future rivals. Toriyama said in a BoG 2013 interview and in 2003; in his fighting stories, he "always" [That means FOREVER] has the next enemy stronger.
1) The same BoG interview where he said Goku wouldn't need SSG any more?

2) Show me the line.

3) If that line is real then he nearly immediately broke that rule with Golden Freeza not being stronger than Beerus despite the former coming after.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:12 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:10 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:39 pm
Skar wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:50 pm

When did Toriyama say this? If he said this years ago then the escalation between each antagonist might not be as big as before especially if it requires you to ignore every comparison to Beerus in the last three arcs. We don't know how much stronger Moro is compared to Jiren or Broly but it could be minor since they're all still weaker than MUI or the Blue fusions. Once again, it's difficult to believe all these statements were intended to be false. In any story, we generally assume a statement is true unless something contradicts it later. What you're arguing requires some mental gymnastics that no author would intend for his audience to do especially not a simple author like Toriyama.
I'm the one stating facts. You guys are pushing non facts. The lines concerning Beerus with Broly and FT Vegetto are totally contradiction to fact. However, Toriyama's statement is totally facts. Along with the Oracle prophecy about Goku/Vegeta being Beerus future rivals. Toriyama said in a BoG 2013 interview and in 2003; in his fighting stories, he "always" [That means FOREVER] has the next enemy stronger.
1) The same BoG interview where he said Goku wouldn't need SSG any more?

2) Show me the line.

3) If that line is real then he nearly immediately broke that rule with Golden Freeza not being stronger than Beerus despite the former coming after.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&start=32440#p1669243
Jack Bz wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:52 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:39 pm
Skar wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:50 pm

When did Toriyama say this? If he said this years ago then the escalation between each antagonist might not be as big as before especially if it requires you to ignore every comparison to Beerus in the last three arcs. We don't know how much stronger Moro is compared to Jiren or Broly but it could be minor since they're all still weaker than MUI or the Blue fusions. Once again, it's difficult to believe all these statements were intended to be false. In any story, we generally assume a statement is true unless something contradicts it later. What you're arguing requires some mental gymnastics that no author would intend for his audience to do especially not a simple author like Toriyama.
I'm the one stating facts. You guys are pushing non facts. The lines concerning Beerus with Broly and FT Vegetto are totally contradiction to fact. However, Toriyama's statement is totally facts. Along with the Oracle prophecy about Goku/Vegeta being Beerus future rivals. Toriyama said in a BoG 2013 interview and in 2003; in his fighting stories, he "always" [That means FOREVER] has the next enemy stronger.
Even within super itself the "always stronger" rule isn't always true. Not just Beerus being stronger then Freeza, but Freeza in terms of pure strength is most probably stronger than the next main antagonist Hit (in the manga). Ssj god wipes the floor with him, and Hit has to power up to a state he can only hold for a few moments just to be able to make the time skip effect Goku. And blue is far enough above him to not even be affected at all by a full power Hit time skip, meaning Hit is not even at or around the same level as a super saiyan blue, while Freeza is blue tier.

Putting all your faith into old interviews, giving them a grandiose name such as "Toriyama's law", is the kind of thinking that will stop you taking the story at face value. In battle of gods era interviews, Toriyama stated that Goku will just use his ssj1 form from now on after fighting Beerus, and yet that couldn't be further from the truth. Goku compared Broly to Beerus for a reason, at least at the time of writing Toriyama probably had it in mind that they're in the same ball park of power. This doesn't mean he can't later change his mind, as he has many times.

And for the record, I do think that if a Beerus rematch with Goku does happen, then Beerus will probably turn out to be stronger than Broly/a match for UI Goku, but I certainly don't think that that's a fact because of these old interviews, and I certainly don't think people are factually wrong for thinking otherwise.
Hit faced a stronger Blue Goku than the one Freeza faced. Also Freeza coming after Beerus does not count because Toriyama already stated why he didn't make Beerus lose to Goku. It was to "preserve the dignity" of Beerus. In order to "give Goku a future" to shoot for. Beerus fighting later means he is stronger than Freeza and any other that comes before him. Since Toriyama's next enemy > than the last is "always" in effect. So yes, to say otherwise against this rule is factually incorrect.

See link above for more info.

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Helios518
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:25 pm


It's either "Beerus is stronger than because he's a future goal' or "Freeza is stronger because antagonists are always stronger than the last ones." Toriyama is prone to contradicting himself (which is fine) but you literally can't have both lines be true.
Last edited by Helios518 on Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jack Bz
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:29 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:39 pm
Hit faced a stronger Blue Goku than the one Freeza faced. Also Freeza coming after Beerus does not count because Toriyama already stated why he didn't make Beerus lose to Goku. It was to "preserve the dignity" of Beerus. In order to "give Goku a future" to shoot for. Beerus fighting later means he is stronger than Freeza and any other that comes before him. Since Toriyama's next enemy > than the last is "always" in effect. So yes, to say otherwise against this rule is factually incorrect.

See link above for more info.
Look, I have read the interviews you're referring to, and I understand what Toriyama said in them. However, he isn't contractually obligated to do what he says he will in that interview. No one has a gun to his head. He has already contradicted battle of gods era interviews over what he says Goku will do in future stories, like my example I already stated where he states that Goku will only use the original super saiyan transformation from now on, which Toriyama immediately contradicted in the next film. Please stop using terms like "factually incorrect" over things like this. It's a maleable work of fiction that, strictly within the work itself, has made it seem like Broly and possibly Jiren are above Beerus. Could that be wrong? Hell yeah it could! There's no absolute facts here for now.

And regarding Hit, Goku was stronger to the point where Hit needed to do a massive temporary power-up just to be able to use time skip against Goku as a super saiyan god. A whole form below super saiyan blue! He's not treated as someone particularly strong, but with a bizarre power. I seriously doubt that one arc later, Goku's gotten strong enough where his god form is stronger than his blue form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:31 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:29 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:39 pm
Hit faced a stronger Blue Goku than the one Freeza faced. Also Freeza coming after Beerus does not count because Toriyama already stated why he didn't make Beerus lose to Goku. It was to "preserve the dignity" of Beerus. In order to "give Goku a future" to shoot for. Beerus fighting later means he is stronger than Freeza and any other that comes before him. Since Toriyama's next enemy > than the last is "always" in effect. So yes, to say otherwise against this rule is factually incorrect.

See link above for more info.
Look, I have read the interviews you're referring to, and I understand what Toriyama said in them. However, he isn't contractually obligated to do what he says he will in that interview. No one has a gun to his head. He has already contradicted battle of gods era interviews over what he says Goku will do in future stories, like my example I already stated where he states that Goku will only use the original super saiyan transformation from now on, which Toriyama immediately contradicted in the next film. Please stop using terms like "factually incorrect" over things like this. It's a maleable work of fiction that, strictly within the work itself, has made it seem like Broly and possibly Jiren are above Beerus. Could that be wrong? Hell yeah it could! There's no absolute facts here for now.
For real, if we're still taking BoG interviews as fact then Beerus is still 10 to BoG Goku's 6 and somehow most of Super fits in between that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:55 pm

So, in resume, it’s understandable that Toriyama’s ideas since Battle of Gods could have changed, but so far the story references that at some point Beerus and Goku will probably have an even fight, right? Right.

In the manga continuity, which is where the Oracle fish reiterates that prophecy, Goku may have a good idea of how strong Beerus is, if he really fought at his hardest, like the Grand Priest ordered. And if Goku faces Beerus again, he will probably have the completed Ultra Instinct in his skillset, which suggests Beerus is at least on par with it.

But, in the movie continuity, Goku never saw Beerus using more than 70% of his power, if this is the way to go with how much Battle of Gods conveys Beerus’ powerlevel by Whis’ words. So, it’s totally reasonable to assume Goku doesn’t have a proper understanding of Beerus’ true strength in the second and third movies going only by what Goku saw in the first movie.

Anyway, if all these events share some connection, it would require that Broli is so strong than not even Moro or Jiren can’t beat him, which is odd, but okay.

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