Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[FishermanJohnWest]

Your working overtime trying to make the word probably, factual truth.

Probably stronger = at least as strong, you can deny it as much as you want but that's not changing any time soon

Your definition shows the opposite You proved my point.Moro is greater than Broly [This is a fact], that means Goku's guess about Broly and Beerus was proven false.

Moro hasn't proved he is greater then Broly cause he hasn't proved he is greater then Beerus. And if you think Moro > Broly that's fine, put him above Beerus as well lol. Goku didn't guess though, he saw Beerus in the manga, he saw Broly, he says Broly is probably stronger.

Since Beerus only rivals will be Goku/Vegeta later. Cementing Beerus as the "always" stronger enemy, not Broly.

Lol your right, Broly wouldn't rival Beerus that's he reached that pathetic level of power in less then 2 hours. Just how Goku and Vegeta aren't rivaling Broly either lol

[FishermanJohnWest]

For Moro to be above Broly, he either needs to do 3 things

1: Fight a fusion and do better
2: Have someone say that he is stronger then Beerus or fight Beerus + beat him
3: Have a statement saying Moro is the strongest person they fought

That simple really

For Beerus to be above Broly they need to do 3 things

1: Have Beerus fight FP Broly 1 on 1 and win
2: Have Goku admit Moro is the strongest he faced and comparable to Beerus in some way
3: Have Beerus correct Goku saying that Broly is nothing compared to him

For Moro to be above Jiren he needs to do 3 things

1: Fight UI Goku (which he did by fighting a much stronger UI Goku)
2: Have statements where feats are comparable (Omen speed to MUI speed from the TOP)
3: statements or feats that compare one to the othr


While their is lots of evidence putting Moro > Jiren, their isn't much evidence putting Moro > Broly or Beerus

[GodVegetto91]

For Moro to be above Broly, he either needs to do 3 things

1: Fight a fusion and do better
2: Have someone say that he is stronger then Beerus or fight Beerus + beat him
3: Have a statement saying Moro is the strongest person they fought

That simple really

For Beerus to be above Broly they need to do 3 things

1: Have Beerus fight FP Broly 1 on 1 and win
2: Have Goku admit Moro is the strongest he faced and comparable to Beerus in some way
3: Have Beerus correct Goku saying that Broly is nothing compared to him

For Moro to be above Jiren he needs to do 3 things

1: Fight UI Goku (which he did by fighting a much stronger UI Goku)
2: Have statements where feats are comparable (Omen speed to MUI speed from the TOP)
3: statements or feats that compare one to the othr


While their is lots of evidence putting Moro > Jiren, their isn't much evidence putting Moro > Broly or Beerus

No he doesn’t need to do, have, or prove a anything to prove that he’s stronger than them. He’s the next enemy. He’s stronger by definition. The only exception to this rule was God of Destruction, Lord Beerus. And for obvious reasons.

Moro ate whole planets for over 2 months straight. It’s stolen power. Ofcourse he’s stronger than Jiren and Broly. These two aqcuired their powers fairly and squarly! Moro had to cheat so it’s only fair and natural that he’s a bit stronger than them, since he has to sacrifice his pride, morals and fairness (not that Moro has any to begin with, but you get what I mean!) The next enemy is always stronger than the previous one unless your name is God of Destruction Beerus who’s a moving goal post to keep motivating Goku to get stronger.

This stuff isn’t hard you know. Moro-73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta couldn’t even HURT Moro with his full power punch to the gut! Moro was taken aback for like 1 small second until regaining his composure again!

While earlier (as a MUCH weaker and much more inexperienced SSBE Vegeta) 2 arcs ago, he was totally stomping Jiren and massively overwhelming him before Jiren decided to get serious.

This shouldn’t even be a debate. It’s clear that the next enemy is always stronger than the previous one. This is Dragon Ball. A show about PROGRESSION. Enemies always get stronger with each new arc. That is the rule. Toriyama even specifically stated so in an interview.

People don’t seem to realize just how much has happened since the ToP. This current MUI Goku is whole leaques, and entire orders of magnitude stronger than the ToP version. This isn’t even comparable! You can’t judge Jiren’s strength based on his performance against a MUCH WEAKER and much more inexperienced MUI. It doesn’t work like that. And people are apparently not willing to think longer than their nose is.

[Skar]

I'm the one stating facts. You guys are pushing non facts. The lines concerning Beerus with Broly and FT Vegetto are totally contradiction to fact. However, Toriyama's statement is totally facts. Along with the Oracle prophecy about Goku/Vegeta being Beerus future rivals. Toriyama said in a BoG 2013 interview and in 2003; in his fighting stories, he "always" [That means FOREVER] has the next enemy stronger.

You have to admit it's difficult to be convinced by this argument when it relies entirely on "don't take these multiple statements at face value and only believe what the author said years ago". You can still interpret what Toriyama said during BoG in a way that fits with these statements. Each enemy being stronger doesn't mean they have to be a hundred times stronger or able to one-shot the previous enemy. Golden Freeza, Hit, and SSJR Goku Black were all around SSJB in power. Each might be slightly stronger than the last but we have no idea how they compare to each other or how much Goku improved in SSJB. After that, there was at least one character in each arc compared to Beerus or GoDs in general such as Blue Vegetto, Jiren, MUI, and Broly. There was a pattern here that once the enemies were too powerful for Blue Goku on his own and required fusion or a completely new form then Toriyama started comparing them to Beerus.

[FishermanJohnWest]

For Moro to be above Broly, he either needs to do 3 things

1: Fight a fusion and do better
2: Have someone say that he is stronger then Beerus or fight Beerus + beat him
3: Have a statement saying Moro is the strongest person they fought

That simple really

For Beerus to be above Broly they need to do 3 things

1: Have Beerus fight FP Broly 1 on 1 and win
2: Have Goku admit Moro is the strongest he faced and comparable to Beerus in some way
3: Have Beerus correct Goku saying that Broly is nothing compared to him

For Moro to be above Jiren he needs to do 3 things

1: Fight UI Goku (which he did by fighting a much stronger UI Goku)
2: Have statements where feats are comparable (Omen speed to MUI speed from the TOP)
3: statements or feats that compare one to the othr


While their is lots of evidence putting Moro > Jiren, their isn't much evidence putting Moro > Broly or Beerus

No he doesn’t need to do, have, or prove a anything to prove that he’s stronger than them. He’s the next enemy. He’s stronger by definition. The only exception to this rule was God of Destruction, Lord Beerus. And for obvious reasons.

Moro ate whole planets for over 2 months straight. It’s stolen power. Ofcourse he’s stronger than Jiren and Broly. These two aqcuired their powers fairly and squarly! Moro had to cheat so it’s only fair and natural that he’s a bit stronger than them, since he has to sacrifice his pride, morals and fairness (not that Moro has any to begin with, but you get what I mean!) The next enemy is always stronger than the previous one unless your name is God of Destruction Beerus who’s a moving goal post to keep motivating Goku to get stronger.

This stuff isn’t hard you know. Moro-73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta couldn’t even HURT Moro with his full power punch to the gut! Moro was taken aback for like 1 small second until regaining his composure again!

While earlier (as a MUCH weaker and much more inexperienced SSBE Vegeta) 2 arcs ago, he was totally stomping Jiren and massively overwhelming him before Jiren decided to get serious.

This shouldn’t even be a debate. It’s clear that the next enemy is always stronger than the previous one. This is Dragon Ball. A show about PROGRESSION. Enemies always get stronger with each new arc. That is the rule. Toriyama even specifically stated so in an interview.

People don’t seem to realize just how much has happened since the ToP. This current MUI Goku is whole leaques, and entire orders of magnitude stronger than the ToP version. This isn’t even comparable! You can’t judge Jiren’s strength based on his performance against a MUCH WEAKER and much more inexperienced MUI. It doesn’t work like that. And people are apparently not willing to think longer than their nose is.

Same arguments as miracle up there.

You can argue as much as you want on how the next guy > previous. And it's not false, but the moment Akira had Broly scaled to Beerus and said to be probably STRONGER, it's either Beerus lost his plot protection cause the next guy > previous or Broly gained Beerus protection.

Beerus doesn't put himself above Broly unless the series says so, just how Broly is probably stronger then Beerus cause the SERIES says so. Thus unless the series says Goku is wrong, this ain't changing

So pick one, either Broly and Beerus get up scaled above Moro or Broly and Beerus are below Moro

Their isn't another way other then that

[GodVegetto91]

For Moro to be above Broly, he either needs to do 3 things

1: Fight a fusion and do better
2: Have someone say that he is stronger then Beerus or fight Beerus + beat him
3: Have a statement saying Moro is the strongest person they fought

That simple really

For Beerus to be above Broly they need to do 3 things

1: Have Beerus fight FP Broly 1 on 1 and win
2: Have Goku admit Moro is the strongest he faced and comparable to Beerus in some way
3: Have Beerus correct Goku saying that Broly is nothing compared to him

For Moro to be above Jiren he needs to do 3 things

1: Fight UI Goku (which he did by fighting a much stronger UI Goku)
2: Have statements where feats are comparable (Omen speed to MUI speed from the TOP)
3: statements or feats that compare one to the othr


While their is lots of evidence putting Moro > Jiren, their isn't much evidence putting Moro > Broly or Beerus

No he doesn’t need to do, have, or prove a anything to prove that he’s stronger than them. He’s the next enemy. He’s stronger by definition. The only exception to this rule was God of Destruction, Lord Beerus. And for obvious reasons.

Moro ate whole planets for over 2 months straight. It’s stolen power. Ofcourse he’s stronger than Jiren and Broly. These two aqcuired their powers fairly and squarly! Moro had to cheat so it’s only fair and natural that he’s a bit stronger than them, since he has to sacrifice his pride, morals and fairness (not that Moro has any to begin with, but you get what I mean!) The next enemy is always stronger than the previous one unless your name is God of Destruction Beerus who’s a moving goal post to keep motivating Goku to get stronger.

This stuff isn’t hard you know. Moro-73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta couldn’t even HURT Moro with his full power punch to the gut! Moro was taken aback for like 1 small second until regaining his composure again!

While earlier (as a MUCH weaker and much more inexperienced SSBE Vegeta) 2 arcs ago, he was totally stomping Jiren and massively overwhelming him before Jiren decided to get serious.

This shouldn’t even be a debate. It’s clear that the next enemy is always stronger than the previous one. This is Dragon Ball. A show about PROGRESSION. Enemies always get stronger with each new arc. That is the rule. Toriyama even specifically stated so in an interview.

People don’t seem to realize just how much has happened since the ToP. This current MUI Goku is whole leaques, and entire orders of magnitude stronger than the ToP version. This isn’t even comparable! You can’t judge Jiren’s strength based on his performance against a MUCH WEAKER and much more inexperienced MUI. It doesn’t work like that. And people are apparently not willing to think longer than their nose is.

Same arguments as miracle up there.

You can argue as much as you want on how the next guy > previous. And it's not false, but the moment Akira had Broly scaled to Beerus and said to be probably STRONGER, it's either Beerus lost his plot protection cause the next guy > previous or Broly gained Beerus protection.

Beerus doesn't put himself above Broly unless the series says so, just how Broly is probably stronger then Beerus cause the SERIES says so. Thus unless the series says Goku is wrong, this ain't changing

So pick one, either Broly and Beerus get up scaled above Moro or Broly and Beerus are below Moro

Their isn't another way other then that

It’s you who’s the one that starts from a false assumption and rule here.

Beerus is the one who is the moving goal post here. Not Broly. Beerus will be the one who’s strength will be retconned to stay on top of Goku. Not Broly. If Beerus moves up, Broly doesn’t move up with him. Broly is as strong as he is, which is >>>> Jiren. And <<< Prime Moro. There is no reason for Broly to be tied to Beerus’ strength because of one uncertain, guessing statement by Son Goku near the ending of the Broly movie. Goku doesn’t have to be right, and he probably doesn’t even know Beerus’ full strength.

Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

As for Beerus, we don’t objectively know where he stands yet, but it is very, VERY likely that he will turn out to be even stronger than Moro 73, for the very simple fact that MUI Goku will (in all likelihood) be facing Beerus again at some point in the near future. Because that was the whole point of the plot of Super, that Battle of Gods had laid out for us. It’s the entire reason why Beerus woke up again from a 39 year slumber. To finally find a REAL CHALLENGE. The oracle fish prophesized that Goku and Vegeta will one day be able to rival Beerus, and thus become his true rivals. This wouldn’t be possible if Beerus is still weaker than the 3 powerhouses Goku and Co have been facing for the last 3 Arcs.

Remember Beerus’ “prophetic dream”?

[FishermanJohnWest]

It’s you who’s the one that starts from a false assumption and rule here.

Beerus is the one who is the moving goal post here. Not Broly. Beerus will be the one who’s strength will be retconned to stay on top of Goku. Not Broly. If Beerus moves up, Broly doesn’t move up with him. Broly is as strong as he is, which is >>>> Jiren. And <<< Prime Moro. There is no reason for Broly to be tied to Beerus’ strength because of one uncertain, guessing statement by Son Goku near the ending of the Broly movie. Goku doesn’t have to be right, and he probably doesn’t even know Beerus’ full strength.

Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Same arguments over and over and over again -.-


So Broly who scales to Beerus doesn't move up with Beerus lol so why didn't Beerus up scale past fusion yet LMFAO Vegito Blue = Beerus in black arc, yet Gogeta Blue Broly arc > Broly who was probably stronger then Beerus. Is Akira showing Beerus > Vegito in future arcs ? Nope, he justified it.

So let's makes this very clear, you got no leg to stand on here, cause the series never once said otherwise on Vegito statement and further justified it with Broly. And Goku saw Beerus go all out int he battle royal, he thinks Broly is probably STRONGER. And guessing statement is a moot point cause Goku saw what Beerus is capable of doing.

And uncertain ? read the definition of probably


prob·a·bly
/ˈpräbəblē,ˈpräblē/
Learn to pronounce
adverb
adverb: probably

almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.

prob·​a·​bly | \ ˈprä-bə-blē
, ˈprä(b)-blē \
Definition of probably

: insofar as seems reasonably true, factual, or to be expected : without much doubt

Goku isn't saying Broly isn't Beerus level, he is saying he is PROBABLY STRONGER then Beerus. So Broly is at least as strong as Beerus

As for Beerus, we don’t objectively know where he stands yet, but it is very, VERY likely that he will turn out to be even stronger than Moro 73, for the very simple fact that MUI Goku will (in all likelihood) be facing Beerus again at some point in the near future. Because that was the whole point of the plot of Super, that Battle of Gods had laid out for us. It’s the entire reason why Beerus woke up again from a 39 year slumber. To finally find a REAL CHALLENGE. The oracle fish prophesized that Goku and Vegeta will one day be able to rival Beerus, and thus become his true rivals. This wouldn’t be possible if Beerus is still weaker than the 3 powerhouses Goku and Co have been facing for the last 3 Arcs.

Remember Beerus’ “prophetic dream”?

Pure nonsense, the oracle fish can't include characters that haven't been thought of yet. Thus at that time it was Goku and Vegeta, but when Broly happened, Akira said it's Broly who is probably stronger. So you can bring the Oracle fish as much as you want, it's all moot considering Broly didn't appear before the statement but long after

So as I said, unless the series says otherwise, Broly is => Beerus

[Hugo Boss]

Fisherman, you are mixing the movie continuity and the manga continuity. In the movies, Goku never saw Beerus fighting seriously, more like 70% of his power, as Whis said at the end of Battle of Gods. Do you think manga, anime and movie share the same continuity? Why?

And you still haven’t provided a reason to why Oracle Fish can’t include characters that haven’t been thought at the time the statement was made.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Fisherman, you are mixing the movie continuity and the manga continuity. In the movies, Goku never saw Beerus fighting seriously, more like 70% of his power, as Whis said at the end of Battle of Gods. Do you think manga, anime and movie share the same continuity? Why?

And you still haven’t provided a reason to why Oracle Fish can’t include characters that haven’t been thought at the time the statement was made.

The Broly movie happened in the manga as it gave a small story on it. Plus Akira wrote the movie and the Broly film either follows the anime or manga, regardless it means little on what it follows. And clearly that BOG Beerus is trash, Ikari Broly >>>>> BOG Beerus

And the reason why is what you said, they haven’t been thought at the time the statement was made. And when Broly got introduced, he was compared to Beerus, plus the statement doesn't reflect on Broly since he isn't their for Beerus, like Goku and Vegeta are

[Miracles]

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&start=32440#p1669243

It's either "Beerus is stronger than because he's a future goal' or "Freeza is stronger because antagonists are always stronger than the last ones." Toriyama is prone to contradicting himself (which is fine) but you literally can't have both lines be true.

You missed it where Toriyama stated Beerus is the strongest in universe 7. That includes over Freeza. So he is saving the STRONGEST for later which coincides with his next enemy "always" strongest narrative.

Hit faced a stronger Blue Goku than the one Freeza faced. Also Freeza coming after Beerus does not count because Toriyama already stated why he didn't make Beerus lose to Goku. It was to "preserve the dignity" of Beerus. In order to "give Goku a future" to shoot for. Beerus fighting later means he is stronger than Freeza and any other that comes before him. Since Toriyama's next enemy > than the last is "always" in effect. So yes, to say otherwise against this rule is factually incorrect.

See link above for more info.

Look, I have read the interviews you're referring to, and I understand what Toriyama said in them. However, he isn't contractually obligated to do what he says he will in that interview. No one has a gun to his head. He has already contradicted battle of gods era interviews over what he says Goku will do in future stories, like my example I already stated where he states that Goku will only use the original super saiyan transformation from now on, which Toriyama immediately contradicted in the next film. Please stop using terms like "factually incorrect" over things like this. It's a maleable work of fiction that, strictly within the work itself, has made it seem like Broly and possibly Jiren are above Beerus. Could that be wrong? Hell yeah it could! There's no absolute facts here for now.

And regarding Hit, Goku was stronger to the point where Hit needed to do a massive temporary power-up just to be able to use time skip against Goku as a super saiyan god. A whole form below super saiyan blue! He's not treated as someone particularly strong, but with a bizarre power. I seriously doubt that one arc later, Goku's gotten strong enough where his god form is stronger than his blue form.

Except Toriyama has stated that enemies are always stronger as his plot narrative. That means it will NEVER change. He also says you can't have readers telling him otherwise. It's not satisfying to his story line. This is Toriyama's way of doing a fighting manga that pleases him. He isn't obligated but he is COMMITED to what he sees fit for his battle stories. It is an outright fact stated more than once by Toriyama.

As for your Hit example, that doesn't disprove Toriyama's eternal narrative. The fact remains that Hit IS stronger than RoF Freeza. Since he was STILL able to dodge a stronger Blue Goku's Kamehameha compared to RoF and was still holding back since he wasn't able to use his killing techniques as stated/shown. The fight ended in a draw.

Your working overtime trying to make the word probably, factual truth.

Probably stronger = at least as strong, you can deny it as much as you want but that's not changing any time soon

Your definition shows the opposite You proved my point.Moro is greater than Broly [This is a fact], that means Goku's guess about Broly and Beerus was proven false.

Moro hasn't proved he is greater then Broly cause he hasn't proved he is greater then Beerus. And if you think Moro > Broly that's fine, put him above Beerus as well lol. Goku didn't guess though, he saw Beerus in the manga, he saw Broly, he says Broly is probably stronger.

Since Beerus only rivals will be Goku/Vegeta later. Cementing Beerus as the "always" stronger enemy, not Broly.

Lol your right, Broly wouldn't rival Beerus that's he reached that pathetic level of power in less then 2 hours. Just how Goku and Vegeta aren't rivaling Broly either lol

"Probably stronger" is nothing more than guess work. So now you assume that Broly is at least as strong as Beerus based off that assumption. That's circular headcanon reasoning. Which is false, since Moro is stronger than Broly who is weaker than Beerus due to Oracle fish prophecy of reserving Beerus later as the "strongest" opponent. You can keep contradicting the facts but it won't change reality.

I'm the one stating facts. You guys are pushing non facts. The lines concerning Beerus with Broly and FT Vegetto are totally contradiction to fact. However, Toriyama's statement is totally facts. Along with the Oracle prophecy about Goku/Vegeta being Beerus future rivals. Toriyama said in a BoG 2013 interview and in 2003; in his fighting stories, he "always" [That means FOREVER] has the next enemy stronger.

You have to admit it's difficult to be convinced by this argument when it relies entirely on "don't take these multiple statements at face value and only believe what the author said years ago". You can still interpret what Toriyama said during BoG in a way that fits with these statements. Each enemy being stronger doesn't mean they have to be a hundred times stronger or able to one-shot the previous enemy. Golden Freeza, Hit, and SSJR Goku Black were all around SSJB in power. Each might be slightly stronger than the last but we have no idea how they compare to each other or how much Goku improved in SSJB. After that, there was at least one character in each arc compared to Beerus or GoDs in general such as Blue Vegetto, Jiren, MUI, and Broly. There was a pattern here that once the enemies were too powerful for Blue Goku on his own and required fusion or a completely new form then Toriyama started comparing them to Beerus.

The statements were nothing more than guesses that are open to contradiction by Toriyama's eternal plot point. It doesn't matter if Toriyama stated them years ago he consistently KEEPS the plot point about the next enemy "ALWAYS" being stronger than the last. There is no getting around this fact. Truth's are eternal, they don't change and trying to use non truth's like "Probable's/maybe's" are overthrown by Toriyama's narrative. Moro is stronger than Broly, Beerus has yet to show up to the game, he will be stronger than all who was shown before him. Thus says Toriyama.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Just as I thought, Moro is weaker than both Broly and Jiren.

[Skar]

The statements were nothing more than guesses that are open to contradiction by Toriyama's eternal plot point. It doesn't matter if Toriyama stated them years ago he consistently KEEPS the plot point about the next enemy "ALWAYS" being stronger than the last. There is no getting around this fact. Truth's are eternal, they don't change and trying to use non truth's like "Probable's/maybe's" are overthrown by Toriyama's narrative. Moro is stronger than Broly, Beerus has yet to show up to the game, he will be stronger than all who was shown before him. Thus says Toriyama.

Like I said, you could still interpret these statements to fit with what you believe are "truths". Claiming that Toriyama went out of his way to have the characters make misleading and intentionally false statements in three separate arcs doesn't make sense. The general audience especially the young fans will take what is said in the story at face value. What Toriyama says in interviews is supplementary information that most people wouldn't read.

[Thani]

At this rate, Beerus will be so powerful that he could just swat all the others Gods of Destruction like flies. Which would be so hilariously stupid that that old fanfic where he pretty much kills everyone up to and almost including the Omniking, in a dream, would actually make sense.

What I'm saying is, just please stop making the cat into more than he should be. Goku and Vegeta in Blue are still nowhere near Beerus or the other Gods of Destruction in power. Hell, they're nowhere near Jiren, Broly and Moro as well. Goku needed Omen just to get closer to that playing field, while Vegeta required to improve his SSBE (which is a power up to the regular Blue). They're still not quite there yet, that's all.

[Koitsukai]

I feel people place too much value on out-of-universe vague statements of power progression even when the product contradicts it: U6 Hit was never shown to be able to surpass SSG, Black Rose couldn't keep up with SSG's speed, while Golden Freeza was stronger than SSB. And there were no gains to put a SSG >SSB one or two arcs later.
It's pretty clear that each DBS' enemies presents bigger obstacles due to not-power-related stuff like time manipulation, immortality, absolute power under control, unleashed absolute power, ki absorption. It's an interesting and refreshing concept that has been running althroughout the show.
Really, to deny EVERY comparison statement in favour of a vague comment on an old interview seems to be grasping as straws. It also means you won't understand the show unless you spent a whole night googling old interviews... what?


---------

Regarding chapter 64, it's now safe to say UI is vastly stronger than Omen. Moro is nowhere near UI level, he got beat up like Cell.

[ankokudaishogun]

not-power-related stuff like time manipulation, immortality, absolute power under control, unleashed absolute power, ki absorption.

I feel there is something missing...

[Koitsukai]

not-power-related stuff like time manipulation, immortality, absolute power under control, unleashed absolute power, ki absorption.

I feel there is something missing...

lol yeah, I got caught up and included those two foes who were powerhouses, something DBS hadn't provide for 2-3 years. Still, only two in 5 years.

[Helios518]

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&start=32440#p1669243

It's either "Beerus is stronger than because he's a future goal' or "Freeza is stronger because antagonists are always stronger than the last ones." Toriyama is prone to contradicting himself (which is fine) but you literally can't have both lines be true.

You missed it where Toriyama stated Beerus is the strongest in universe 7. That includes over Freeza. So he is saving the STRONGEST for later which coincides with his next enemy "always" strongest narrative.

I didn't miss anything

Do you acknowledge that RoF takes places after BoG? If so go to the next question.

Do you acknowledge that Freeza is the RoF's antagonist while Beerus is BoG's antagonists? If so go to the next question.

Do you believe that an antagonist is always weaker than the following arc's antagonist? If so Freeza is stronger than Beerus because Freeza was the antagonist of the arc following BoG. It wouldn't matter if Beerus didn't go full-power because Freeza is stronger out of virtue of being the antagonist after.

If you believe Beerus is stronger than Freeza than an antagonist isn't always weaker than the following arc's antagonist.


It's really simple tbh. You can't say "antagonist are always weaker than the follow antagonist except when they aren't" otherwise it isn't always. Unless you somehow don't think "always" means "every time" despite the official definitions.

Again, it's fine to think Toriyama's isn't some omniscient writer that can keep track of every single line that he wrote down/said. It's also fine to think that Toriyama has free will and can subvert writing rules.

[Thani]

I feel people place too much value on out-of-universe vague statements of power progression even when the product contradicts it: U6 Hit was never shown to be able to surpass SSG, Black Rose couldn't keep up with SSG's speed, while Golden Freeza was stronger than SSB. And there were no gains to put a SSG >SSB one or two arcs later.
It's pretty clear that each DBS' enemies presents bigger obstacles due to not-power-related stuff like time manipulation, immortality, absolute power under control, unleashed absolute power, ki absorption. It's an interesting and refreshing concept that has been running althroughout the show.
Really, to deny EVERY comparison statement in favour of a vague comment on an old interview seems to be grasping as straws. It also means you won't understand the show unless you spent a whole night googling old interviews... what?


---------

Regarding chapter 64, it's now safe to say UI is vastly stronger than Omen. Moro is nowhere near UI level, he got beat up like Cell.

To be fair with Black in the Manga, it wasn't SSG alone that gave him trouble. Vegeta was switching to Blue constantly in that fight, which would also boost his speed. So you can argue that whenever Black was having trouble, or taking damage, that meant Vegeta was actually using Blue at that moment. It makes sense as well, since SSRosé is literally just SSBlue but for Black.

Hit was actually stronger than God at his full power, which is why Goku had to switch to Blue to beat his final time skip.

[Koitsukai]

I feel people place too much value on out-of-universe vague statements of power progression even when the product contradicts it: U6 Hit was never shown to be able to surpass SSG, Black Rose couldn't keep up with SSG's speed, while Golden Freeza was stronger than SSB. And there were no gains to put a SSG >SSB one or two arcs later.
It's pretty clear that each DBS' enemies presents bigger obstacles due to not-power-related stuff like time manipulation, immortality, absolute power under control, unleashed absolute power, ki absorption. It's an interesting and refreshing concept that has been running althroughout the show.
Really, to deny EVERY comparison statement in favour of a vague comment on an old interview seems to be grasping as straws. It also means you won't understand the show unless you spent a whole night googling old interviews... what?


---------

Regarding chapter 64, it's now safe to say UI is vastly stronger than Omen. Moro is nowhere near UI level, he got beat up like Cell.

To be fair with Black in the Manga, it wasn't SSG alone that gave him trouble. Vegeta was switching to Blue constantly in that fight, which would also boost his speed. So you can argue that whenever Black was having trouble, or taking damage, that meant Vegeta was actually using Blue at that moment. It makes sense as well, since SSRosé is literally just SSBlue but for Black.

Hit was actually stronger than God at his full power, which is why Goku had to switch to Blue to beat his final time skip.

I disagree about Black. Yes, Blue was the one dealing damage but like Goku said, Vegeta only used it in the attacking moment, so the speed that Black couldn't keep up with was SSG's, not a byproduct of the god-switch.
Actually we could infer that at first when Black was holding his own blocking here and there, Vegeta was just using SSG and not the switch. But he was never able to land a hit on SSG, the speed was too much, and it was never stated that Vegeta also used the switch defensively. Only offensively.

Hit however might be above God or not. We never saw what he could actually do, so it's really up in the air. Goku using blue could be just to be on the safe side. Even if he was stronger, I'd lump in the SSG tier and not the SSB tier.

[Thani]

I feel people place too much value on out-of-universe vague statements of power progression even when the product contradicts it: U6 Hit was never shown to be able to surpass SSG, Black Rose couldn't keep up with SSG's speed, while Golden Freeza was stronger than SSB. And there were no gains to put a SSG >SSB one or two arcs later.
It's pretty clear that each DBS' enemies presents bigger obstacles due to not-power-related stuff like time manipulation, immortality, absolute power under control, unleashed absolute power, ki absorption. It's an interesting and refreshing concept that has been running althroughout the show.
Really, to deny EVERY comparison statement in favour of a vague comment on an old interview seems to be grasping as straws. It also means you won't understand the show unless you spent a whole night googling old interviews... what?


---------

Regarding chapter 64, it's now safe to say UI is vastly stronger than Omen. Moro is nowhere near UI level, he got beat up like Cell.

To be fair with Black in the Manga, it wasn't SSG alone that gave him trouble. Vegeta was switching to Blue constantly in that fight, which would also boost his speed. So you can argue that whenever Black was having trouble, or taking damage, that meant Vegeta was actually using Blue at that moment. It makes sense as well, since SSRosé is literally just SSBlue but for Black.

Hit was actually stronger than God at his full power, which is why Goku had to switch to Blue to beat his final time skip.

I disagree about Black. Yes, Blue was the one dealing damage but like Goku said, Vegeta only used it in the attacking moment, so the speed that Black couldn't keep up with was SSG's, not a byproduct of the god-switch.
Actually we could infer that at first when Black was holding his own blocking here and there, Vegeta was just using SSG and not the switch. But he was never able to land a hit on SSG, the speed was too much, and it was never stated that Vegeta also used the switch defensively. Only offensively.

Hit however might be above God or not. We never saw what he could actually do, so it's really up in the air. Goku using blue could be just to be on the safe side. Even if he was stronger, I'd lump in the SSG tier and not the SSB tier.

Agree to disagree then, on Black. About Hit, I think that's safe. Somewhere around SSG to stronger, but definitely below SSB.

Edit: By the way I've just read the new chapter. It's one thing that Goku got stronger overall, but the absolute trashing he gave Moro pretty much told me the old wizard wasn't on Jiren or Broly's league. And I do believe that this Goku could defeat Jiren now (who originally bested him in the silver UI).