Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:04 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:49 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:43 am
Fisherman, you are mixing the movie continuity and the manga continuity. In the movies, Goku never saw Beerus fighting seriously, more like 70% of his power, as Whis said at the end of Battle of Gods. Do you think manga, anime and movie share the same continuity? Why?

And you still haven’t provided a reason to why Oracle Fish can’t include characters that haven’t been thought at the time the statement was made.
The Broly movie happened in the manga as it gave a small story on it. Plus Akira wrote the movie and the Broly film either follows the anime or manga, regardless it means little on what it follows. And clearly that BOG Beerus is trash, Ikari Broly >>>>> BOG Beerus

And the reason why is what you said, they haven’t been thought at the time the statement was made. And when Broly got introduced, he was compared to Beerus, plus the statement doesn't reflect on Broly since he isn't their for Beerus, like Goku and Vegeta are
The manga version of Broli’s story doesn’t suggest any comparison between Broli and Beerus, like the movie does. And I don’t see how Akira Toriyama’s involvement in each version helps your point, since manga and anime have their own writers. Besides, the anime doesn’t have a test fight between Gods of Destruction with Beerus involved, so it’s hard to believe the anime and the movie versions of Goku have a good assessment of Beerus’ strength.

And what I asked is why Oracle Fish’s prophecy can’t include characters that weren’t there when the prophecy was claimed. You haven’t explained yet this reasoning. You are basically implying that Oracle Fish (or rather the Dragon Ball Super writers) isn’t able to foresee a mortal that surpass Beerus, despite that being exactly what Goku said. So, it’s either that Oracle Fish is a bad fortuneteller or Goku was just exaggerating Broli’s strength a bit, right? Curiously, it took 64 chapters for Beerus finally showing some respect for Goku’s strength. Perhaps we aren’t too far from the point Goku is fulfilling his expectations.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:52 pm

The manga version of Broli’s story doesn’t suggest any comparison between Broli and Beerus, like the movie does. And I don’t see how Akira Toriyama’s involvement in each version helps your point, since manga and anime have their own writers. Besides, the anime doesn’t have a test fight between Gods of Destruction with Beerus involved, so it’s hard to believe the anime and the movie versions of Goku have a good assessment of Beerus’ strength.
Manga skipped the fight cause of the movie thus the events would be the same, also the manga gives a brief description on the fight and it matches that of the movie, the movie and novel say Broly is => Beerus. Manga is written by Akira, so whether the manga or anime have their own writers doesn't change the fact that this quote from from Akira himself. And Goku saw Beerus and Champa fight a bloody battle in the anime.
And what I asked is why Oracle Fish’s prophecy can’t include characters that weren’t there when the prophecy was claimed. You haven’t explained yet this reasoning.

I just explained it, cause they weren't even introduced into the story as they came after
You are basically implying that Oracle Fish (or rather the Dragon Ball Super writers) isn’t able to foresee a mortal that surpass Beerus, despite that being exactly what Goku said.
That's what I am saying, the writer didn't foresee Broly cause he came long after that quote was made. And when Broly was introduced, they compared him to Beerus, and said he was probably stronger.

So, it’s either that Oracle Fish is a bad fortuneteller or Goku was just exaggerating Broli’s strength a bit, right?
No, cause the oracle fish is just representing what the writers know of that time not future villains that haven't been thought of yet, and why would Akira have Goku say that line if it's for shits and giggles -.- plus that prophecy is for Goku and Vegeta, not other characters like Gogeta, Broly or Vegito.
Curiously, it took 64 chapters for Beerus finally showing some respect for Goku’s strength. Perhaps we aren’t too far from the point Goku is fulfilling his expectations.
Beerus reactions aren't evidence

But since we are talking about reactions, In the novel, Beerus was happy Broly was defeat

It was already sunset, the day was nearing its end.

Beerus was sitting with his legs crossed, gazing in the direction of the water continent as the little Bulla was playing on his knee.

"Yes... It seems they somehow managed."


in the movie, he breaths a sign of relief after saying everything turned out fine.

They kept Beerus away from Broly for a reason, cause if Beerus was > Broly then they would do the same thing they did with Frieza and Moro, and that is Beerus would be standing there

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:58 pm

"Probably stronger" is nothing more than guess work. So now you assume that Broly is at least as strong as Beerus based off that assumption. That's circular headcanon reasoning.
So Goku is assuming ? How is he assuming lmfao go ahead and prove that. I bet you won't and your going to rely on that rubbish oracle fish statement and play dumb again

Downplay the statement as much as you want, it's not changing cause you want it too :lol:
Which is false, since Moro is stronger than Broly who is weaker than Beerus due to Oracle fish prophecy of reserving Beerus later as the "strongest" opponent. You can keep contradicting the facts but it won't change reality.
Sorry, Oracle fish statement doesn't include characters that the writers haven't thought off yet. Oracle fish is moot for Broly thanks to Akira having Broly probably stronger then Beerus.

Did they contradict themselves with Vegito statement ? Nope, he justified it DESPITE BROLY being 2 arcs after (which throws the idea of those who scale to Beerus not being up scaled with him), and going further they are still saying Vegito, even after the Broly movie, is = Beerus.

You got nothing saying otherwise, so give up and wait for the series to prove the statement is wrong rather then your delusional head canon.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:00 am

Thani wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:42 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:17 pm
Thani wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:55 pm


To be fair with Black in the Manga, it wasn't SSG alone that gave him trouble. Vegeta was switching to Blue constantly in that fight, which would also boost his speed. So you can argue that whenever Black was having trouble, or taking damage, that meant Vegeta was actually using Blue at that moment. It makes sense as well, since SSRosé is literally just SSBlue but for Black.

Hit was actually stronger than God at his full power, which is why Goku had to switch to Blue to beat his final time skip.
I disagree about Black. Yes, Blue was the one dealing damage but like Goku said, Vegeta only used it in the attacking moment, so the speed that Black couldn't keep up with was SSG's, not a byproduct of the god-switch.
Actually we could infer that at first when Black was holding his own blocking here and there, Vegeta was just using SSG and not the switch. But he was never able to land a hit on SSG, the speed was too much, and it was never stated that Vegeta also used the switch defensively. Only offensively.

Hit however might be above God or not. We never saw what he could actually do, so it's really up in the air. Goku using blue could be just to be on the safe side. Even if he was stronger, I'd lump in the SSG tier and not the SSB tier.
Agree to disagree then, on Black. About Hit, I think that's safe. Somewhere around SSG to stronger, but definitely below SSB.

Edit: By the way I've just read the new chapter. It's one thing that Goku got stronger overall, but the absolute trashing he gave Moro pretty much told me the old wizard wasn't on Jiren or Broly's league. And I do believe that this Goku could defeat Jiren now (who originally bested him in the silver UI).
Moro is > Jiren, he low diff Omen Goku with ease that is >>>>> omen TOP

As for Broly, depends if Moro is = or > Beerus

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:03 am

Prime Moro did not low diff Omen Goku and nothing in the narrative suggested that he became unfathomably stronger than his ToP self. 7-3 Moro low diff Omen, but was stomped by the perfected UI. Jiren fought a somewhat lesser manifestation of that UI but managed to stay on his feet, adapt and eventually overcome it (that and Goku burned out eventually).

Hence, as far as I can tell, Jiren >= 7-3 Moro. Makes sense, since he's supposed to be stronger than his God of Destruction, and Beerus can't be that much stronger than Belmod if at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:54 am

Thani wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:03 am
Prime Moro did not low diff Omen Goku and nothing in the narrative suggested that he became unfathomably stronger than his ToP self. 7-3 Moro low diff Omen, but was stomped by the perfected UI. Jiren fought a somewhat lesser manifestation of that UI but managed to stay on his feet, adapt and eventually overcome it (that and Goku burned out eventually).
Jiren really struggled with Omen in the manga, but he wasn't fighting at full power at the time. Thing is you can't compare this perfected UI now with the one in the tournament. Jiren couldn't touch that UI until the strain took its effect, as Whis pointed out that with every reaction it's taking quite a toll on Goku, then some time after that statement Jiren managed to grab Gokus leg. The facial expressions are also entirely different, in the ToP you see Goku paying attention with his eyes quite a lot, and you also see him with a slightly strained face. If Goku could've continued that fight in the TOP at his best in UI we clearly see that Jiren can't actually land a blow until Gokus body can't keep up with the strain

Whis, and Beerus pointed out in this most recent chapter that Goku is fine tuning his moves more and more. So even now he might not be as good as he can be.
This UI doesn't use his eyes like the TOP one, he's straight up more powerful and doesn't have each reaction take "quite a toll" on him. So right now it's impossible to claim that Jiren is stronger than Moro due to their showings against UI.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:21 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:52 pm
Goku saw Beerus and Champa fight a bloody battle in the anime.
I don’t recall that. I just saw a little squabbling.
I just explained it, cause they weren't even introduced into the story as they came after
So, a non-explanation is your answer.
why would Akira have Goku say that line if it's for shits and giggles
Because Broli might be really stronger than the level Goku thinks Beerus has or rather than the Gods of Destruction he heard about. That doesn’t necessarily mean Goku is exposing a hard fact. He was complimenting Broli while using an example to make his statement easy to understand to the group he was trying to convince.
In the novel, Beerus was happy Broly was defeat
[...]
in the movie, he breaths a sign of relief after saying everything turned out fine.
[...]
Beerus would be standing there
Honestly, going by these reactions you described, it seems more like he was worried about Goku and company not being able to defeat Broli on their own and that he would have to get involved in some way or the other to protect Earth and that would be against his duty as a God of Destruction.

In my opinion, Beerus presence on the sides is a move that decreases tension. Keeping him far usually maintains the level of tension required to the audience to get invested in the story. In the current situation, Moro represents a threat that demanded Beerus’ help and now he wants to see if they can manage something on their own. In the end of the recent chapter this becomes clear, Beerus is worried that Goku is about to mess things up again. That’s all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:39 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:54 am
Thani wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:03 am
Prime Moro did not low diff Omen Goku and nothing in the narrative suggested that he became unfathomably stronger than his ToP self. 7-3 Moro low diff Omen, but was stomped by the perfected UI. Jiren fought a somewhat lesser manifestation of that UI but managed to stay on his feet, adapt and eventually overcome it (that and Goku burned out eventually).
Jiren really struggled with Omen in the manga, but he wasn't fighting at full power at the time. Thing is you can't compare this perfected UI now with the one in the tournament. Jiren couldn't touch that UI until the strain took its effect, as Whis pointed out that with every reaction it's taking quite a toll on Goku, then some time after that statement Jiren managed to grab Gokus leg. The facial expressions are also entirely different, in the ToP you see Goku paying attention with his eyes quite a lot, and you also see him with a slightly strained face. If Goku could've continued that fight in the TOP at his best in UI we clearly see that Jiren can't actually land a blow until Gokus body can't keep up with the strain

Whis, and Beerus pointed out in this most recent chapter that Goku is fine tuning his moves more and more. So even now he might not be as good as he can be.
This UI doesn't use his eyes like the TOP one, he's straight up more powerful and doesn't have each reaction take "quite a toll" on him. So right now it's impossible to claim that Jiren is stronger than Moro due to their showings against UI.
Jiren didn't reaaaally struggle with Omen, he was more annoyed that Goku was just dodging instead of fighting back. When Goku did try to land a punch in Omen, Jiren countered immediately. In fact, Jiren was the only one landing blows when he fought Omen.

You probably have a point with the true UI tho, but I don't doubt that Goku could defeat Jiren now with it. Also, while it was stated that Goku's body was suffering because of UI, Whis also went out of his way to say that Jiren was adapting to his enemy - he was countering faster, out of sheer willpower.
Basically Whis is saying that Jiren is forcing Goku's Ultra Instinct to react to a level his body isn't trained enough to handle properly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:22 pm

Where would you guys put a hypothetical anime Moro?

How would he fare against shirtless Jiren and a nakama/rage boosted MUI Goku?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:25 pm

Where would you guys put a hypothetical anime Moro?

How would he fare against shirtless Jiren and a nakama/rage boosted MUI Goku?
Prime+ Moro: More or less equal to the third usage of Omen, maybe stronger.

7-3 Moro: Stronger than the third usage of Omen (enough to easily dodge and send him away) for sure, but ranging from weaker to way weaker than UI.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Broly > Beerus > Jiren > Moro

That seems like the order for now. Jiren could be above Broly it's hard to say for sure.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:51 pm

Nevaeh wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:22 pm
Where would you guys put a hypothetical anime Moro?

How would he fare against shirtless Jiren and a nakama/rage boosted MUI Goku?
If the anime adaptation was a almost 1:1 for the manga then you'd have to say Moro would be above 100% Jiren by a huge amount.

Though he's clearly not close to that MUI level so he wouldn't beat either of those two.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:01 pm

Nevaeh wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:22 pm
Where would you guys put a hypothetical anime Moro?

How would he fare against shirtless Jiren and a nakama/rage boosted MUI Goku?
UI Omen phase 3 is about as strong as FP Jiren... Moro even before eating 7-3 will be above Omen phase 4... So stronger than FP Jiren.

I can see Moro(7-3) being about as strong as Shirtless Jiren if regular FP Moro is already above FP Base Jiren. It depends on the boost 7-3 really gives Moro.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:38 pm

UI seems to be a huge jump from Omen, so it could be the case that Jiren's limit breaking power actually was a really big boost as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:21 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Broly > Beerus > Jiren > Moro

That seems like the order for now. Jiren could be above Broly it's hard to say for sure.
Uhm No.. That’s not how power progression works in Dragon Ball. Until there is evidence revealing otherwise, (and there isn’t any) the next enemy is always stronger than the last. Beerus is the only exception to that rule, since he is a moving goal post for Goku to chase after. So the order goes simply: Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:42 pm

The evidence is that both Broly and Jiren were compared to one or more Gods of Destruction. Broly was stated stronger than Beerus, Jiren was confirmed stronger than Belmod. Gods of Destruction are relative to one another, the difference is not too significant. For Moro to be stronger than both Jiren and Broly, he would have to be stronger than Beerus and Belmod as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:11 am

There's pretty reasonable ground to argue after this chapter that Jiren is stronger than final-form Moro, although it's kept a bit ambiguous by how much Goku's strength increases since the tournament, as well as how much famiarity with Ultra Instinct, if indeed that is a factor, factor in.

Jiren and Broly receive heavy, heavy dialogue impliations about being stronger than Beerus, so taking the series at its word, it's plausible that:

Jiren > Moro > Broly > Beerus

or

Jiren > Broly > Moro > Beerus

or even

Moro > Jiren > Broly > Beerus (if the differences between the two instances of UI Goku is that great)

or(!)

Jiren/Broly > Beerus > Moro (Admittedly, it's never stated or so directly implied that Moro has surpassed Beerus, but his performance and dialogue against UI Sign do seem to indicate he's at least on par.)

All four are very close and the relationship is kept fairly ambiguous. But there's enough between their respective performances against completed UI to at least make the case that Jiren is stronger than Moro more soundly than one could have a monthy ago.
Until there is evidence revealing otherwise, (and there isn’t any) the next enemy is always stronger than the last. Beerus is the only exception to that rule, since he is a moving goal post for Goku to chase after. So the order goes simply: Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.
There's the evidence of ... Super not holding itself to that from the start?

I don't think there's anything to firmly discredit your order, but DB certainly knows how to be clear about subsequent antagonist relationships when it wants to be (even in Super, see: Jiren defeating Hit, effortlessly bouncing back the perfected Blue Goku who had gone toe to toe with Zamasu in the manga, etc.), and for the trio of Jiren, Broly and Moro, it hasn't chosen to be.
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:26 pm
U6 Hit was never shown to be able to surpass SSG
For what it's worth--while we never get to see the results--he's confident he can catch SSG in the Timeskip at full power. Goku must believe him, since that's when he chooses to pull out SSB.

Given that this is also on the other side of three years in the RoSaT probably intended to act as an "Okay, they're stronger than Freeza now!" beat, it's hard to claim with any certainty that the Golden Freeza who first came to Earth is any stronger than Hit.

Though, in keeping with Super's lower focus on scaling antagonists directly up against one another, it's also hard to claim with certainty that he's not. There are moments when it's direct, but it also seems fairly comfortable to let its different antagonists be threatening for reasons other than raw "stronger than the last guy" strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:11 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Broly > Beerus > Jiren > Moro

That seems like the order for now. Jiren could be above Broly it's hard to say for sure.
Beerus is still the measuring stick. I knew this already but the latest chapter is hammering this home. He's nonplussed by Goku's fight with Moro, nonplussed by UI Goku really.

*definition 2 of nonplussed btw
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:40 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:21 am
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:52 pm
Goku saw Beerus and Champa fight a bloody battle in the anime.
I don’t recall that. I just saw a little squabbling.
I just explained it, cause they weren't even introduced into the story as they came after
So, a non-explanation is your answer.
why would Akira have Goku say that line if it's for shits and giggles
Because Broli might be really stronger than the level Goku thinks Beerus has or rather than the Gods of Destruction he heard about. That doesn’t necessarily mean Goku is exposing a hard fact. He was complimenting Broli while using an example to make his statement easy to understand to the group he was trying to convince.
In the novel, Beerus was happy Broly was defeat
[...]
in the movie, he breaths a sign of relief after saying everything turned out fine.
[...]
Beerus would be standing there
Honestly, going by these reactions you described, it seems more like he was worried about Goku and company not being able to defeat Broli on their own and that he would have to get involved in some way or the other to protect Earth and that would be against his duty as a God of Destruction.

In my opinion, Beerus presence on the sides is a move that decreases tension. Keeping him far usually maintains the level of tension required to the audience to get invested in the story. In the current situation, Moro represents a threat that demanded Beerus’ help and now he wants to see if they can manage something on their own. In the end of the recent chapter this becomes clear, Beerus is worried that Goku is about to mess things up again. That’s all.
Goku saw Beerus fight all out in the manga and anime, he isn't just making shit up from the top of his head.

Regardless, we have to wait and see where they take it cause nothing so far contradicts the statement

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:55 am

Cipher wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:11 am
There's pretty reasonable ground to argue after this chapter that Jiren is stronger than final-form Moro, although it's kept a bit ambiguous by how much Goku's strength increases since the tournament, as well as how much famiarity with Ultra Instinct, if indeed that is a factor, factor in.

Jiren and Broly receive heavy, heavy dialogue impliations about being stronger than Beerus, so taking the series at its word, it's plausible that:

Jiren > Moro > Broly > Beerus

or

Jiren > Broly > Moro > Beerus

or even

Moro > Jiren > Broly > Beerus (if the differences between the two instances of UI Goku is that great)

or(!)

Jiren/Broly > Beerus > Moro (Admittedly, it's never stated or so directly implied that Moro has surpassed Beerus, but his performance and dialogue against UI Sign do seem to indicate he's at least on par.)

All four are very close and the relationship is kept fairly ambiguous. But there's enough between their respective performances against completed UI to at least make the case that Jiren is stronger than Moro more soundly than one could have a monthy ago.
Until there is evidence revealing otherwise, (and there isn’t any) the next enemy is always stronger than the last. Beerus is the only exception to that rule, since he is a moving goal post for Goku to chase after. So the order goes simply: Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.
There's the evidence of ... Super not holding itself to that from the start?

I don't think there's anything to firmly discredit your order, but DB certainly knows how to be clear about subsequent antagonist relationships when it wants to be (even in Super, see: Jiren defeating Hit, effortlessly bouncing back the perfected Blue Goku who had gone toe to toe with Zamasu in the manga, etc.), and for the trio of Jiren, Broly and Moro, it hasn't chosen to be.
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:26 pm
U6 Hit was never shown to be able to surpass SSG
For what it's worth--while we never get to see the results--he's confident he can catch SSG in the Timeskip at full power. Goku must believe him, since that's when he chooses to pull out SSB.

Given that this is also on the other side of three years in the RoSaT probably intended to act as an "Okay, they're stronger than Freeza now!" beat, it's hard to claim with any certainty that the Golden Freeza who first came to Earth is any stronger than Hit.

Though, in keeping with Super's lower focus on scaling antagonists directly up against one another, it's also hard to claim with certainty that he's not. There are moments when it's direct, but it also seems fairly comfortable to let its different antagonists be threatening for reasons other than raw "stronger than the last guy" strength.
I'd say

Gogeta Blue > Broly => Vegito Black Arc => Beerus <=> MUI Goku Moro Arc > Moro73 > SSJBE Vegeta > Jiren

Jiren was compared to Belmod and went toe to toe with MUI, but at the same time Goku had huge gains from then and has perfected UI. A gap difference would be Goku SSJB performance vs Sanganbo, and Sanganbo should be >> Blue Goku TOP, and SSJB Goku crushed Sanganbo with ease

Which should prove Omen Moro Arc can easily destroy Omen from the TOP

And Moro73 basically one shot Omen Goku without FP

However, I don't believe Moro is stronger then Beerus, I could be wrong but as you said, no comparisons was made yet

As for Broly, he was compared to Beerus, and fought a fusion who 2 arcs before (black arc) it was = to Beerus as it is. And Gogeta is on top of the list.

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