Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Nevaeh
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:17 am

The DB community holds Broly and Jiren (at least the anime version of him) in high regard because they got statements and feats that back up their hype. Moro doesn't. He should, but he doesn't. All he's got so far is vague statements and feats that can be interpreted in different ways

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:49 am

Helios518 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:49 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:03 pm
After Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta delivered a full-power power-punch to Moro’s gut and it still had no effect at all,

Piccolo said that Prime Moro’s power, is ”at a level that can’t be overcome with training alone.”

Jiren trained alone.
While I'm not stating how Geran compares to Moro. I do believe this isn't a good statement to compare them. Yes, Geran trained to get where he's at but Vegeta mostly only trained to receive the level of power he's achieves besides his modest Majin boost. Another thing is that I seriously doubt Piccolo would know the exact training gains of Hit, Freeza, Geran, and many other alien races when he barely been around them. Also, these lines were made before (E.G Beerus talking about god-tier in BoG) when they always get debunked through some dude training.
My argument is better than your one trying to find a flaw where there isn’t any. The simple fact is: According to Piccolo, Moro is at a level beyond what training alone can overcome. Jiren (not Geran) is exactly the the type of character that trains alone. Solo! There’s just no way to deny Piccolo’s statement. It’s as clear as day. As for what characters “know” about other characters, well that’s pure headcanon, the fact is, Toyotaro had a character state what HE believes is the case. They’re only there for narration purposes. It’s not your job as the audience to decide what an in-universe character knows about another in-universe character.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:08 am

I’m not sure this affects anything, but I would be remiss to not point this out:

“training alone” = mere training; just training

Not “training by oneself.”

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:36 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:49 am
There’s just no way to deny Piccolo’s statement. It’s as clear as day. As for what characters “know” about other characters, well that’s pure headcanon, the fact is, Toyotaro had a character state what HE believes is the case. They’re only there for narration purposes. It’s not your job as the audience to decide what an in-universe character knows about another in-universe character.
Are you picking and choosing what statements count for narration purposes? We have statements backing Jiren and Broly being above Beerus or at least close to his power but nothing about Moro yet. We don't know for sure who's stronger between Jiren and Broly and only that the last three antagonists have been at some vague level between SSJB and MUI. It's different than the original series that either clearly stated or shown when the previous antagonist has been surpassed. We could've had that happen in this arc with Broly. If you're confident Moro is far stronger than Broly, why couldn't Moro find Vampa when he was consuming energy across the universe?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:51 am

Cipher wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:08 am
I’m not sure this affects anything, but I would be remiss to not point this out:

“training alone” = mere training; just training

Not “training by oneself.”
Still, the same argument applies. Jiren trained. Moro can’t be overcome by just training. It’s very clear what Piccolo was saying here. This is even why Vegeta needed Forced Spirit Fission in the first place. And why even UI Omen Goku was no match for him in the end. Moro is that OP.

It makes sense for why he is that strong. Moro ate countless planets for over 2 months straight. Absorbing all of their lifeforce and energy. He’s an unnaturally and unfairly powerful being. Like a fusion of some sorts! Jiren is just one guy, all by himself, solo! Who apparently trained very very hard! Just like Vegeta did! Both of them can’t “overcome” Moro. He’s simply too much for a Non Fused, NON Ultra Instinct user!
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:57 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:49 am
Helios518 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:49 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:03 pm
After Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta delivered a full-power power-punch to Moro’s gut and it still had no effect at all,

Piccolo said that Prime Moro’s power, is ”at a level that can’t be overcome with training alone.”

Jiren trained alone.
While I'm not stating how Geran compares to Moro. I do believe this isn't a good statement to compare them. Yes, Geran trained to get where he's at but Vegeta mostly only trained to receive the level of power he's achieves besides his modest Majin boost. Another thing is that I seriously doubt Piccolo would know the exact training gains of Hit, Freeza, Geran, and many other alien races when he barely been around them. Also, these lines were made before (E.G Beerus talking about god-tier in BoG) when they always get debunked through some dude training.
My argument is better than your one trying to find a flaw where there isn’t any. The simple fact is: According to Piccolo, Moro is at a level beyond what training alone can overcome. Jiren (not Geran) is exactly the the type of character that trains alone. Solo! There’s just no way to deny Piccolo’s statement. It’s as clear as day. As for what characters “know” about other characters, well that’s pure headcanon, the fact is, Toyotaro had a character state what HE believes is the case. They’re only there for narration purposes. It’s not your job as the audience to decide what an in-universe character knows about another in-universe character.
I literally have link below why I put Geran but I guess I need to make it bigger now and no, if Piccolo’s statement is fact merely because he said it then every line in manga is fact (including villains being cocky) because they’re what Toyotaro truly believes and it isn’t your job to determine what a character knows. Otherwise, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Toyotaro is saying that specific line for narration purposes instead of Piccolo just saying a hyperbole.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:36 am

Helios518 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:57 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:49 am
Helios518 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:49 pm


While I'm not stating how Geran compares to Moro. I do believe this isn't a good statement to compare them. Yes, Geran trained to get where he's at but Vegeta mostly only trained to receive the level of power he's achieves besides his modest Majin boost. Another thing is that I seriously doubt Piccolo would know the exact training gains of Hit, Freeza, Geran, and many other alien races when he barely been around them. Also, these lines were made before (E.G Beerus talking about god-tier in BoG) when they always get debunked through some dude training.
My argument is better than your one trying to find a flaw where there isn’t any. The simple fact is: According to Piccolo, Moro is at a level beyond what training alone can overcome. Jiren (not Geran) is exactly the the type of character that trains alone. Solo! There’s just no way to deny Piccolo’s statement. It’s as clear as day. As for what characters “know” about other characters, well that’s pure headcanon, the fact is, Toyotaro had a character state what HE believes is the case. They’re only there for narration purposes. It’s not your job as the audience to decide what an in-universe character knows about another in-universe character.
I literally have link below why I put Geran but I guess I need to make it bigger now and no, if Piccolo’s statement is fact merely because he said it then every line in manga is fact (including villains being cocky) because they’re what Toyotaro truly believes and it isn’t your job to determine what a character knows. Otherwise, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Toyotaro is saying that specific line for narration purposes instead of Piccolo just saying a hyperbole.
Piccolo’s statement is consistent with the fact that Moro is a fused being of some sorts and that he appears later than Jiren. So ofcourse his statement seems true. Jiren can’t overcome him, just like this all powerful Vegeta couldn’t. You are the one assuming falsity of a direct quote from a character. Occam’s Razor says to believe the character’s statement UNLESS there is contradicting evidence against it (which there isn’t in this case).

Why are you so desperate to defend Jiren? What’s in it for you? I don’t see the point for people to be this conservative and anti progressive. Dragon Ball has a clear power progression, like Miracles perfectly explained, yet you guys want to clinge and hold on to old, outdated, ancient beliefs (the power of Jiren). He’s the past now.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:59 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:36 am
Piccolo’s statement is consistent with the fact that Moro is a fused being of some sorts and that he appears later than Jiren. So ofcourse his statement seems true. Jiren can’t overcome him, just like this all powerful Vegeta couldn’t. You are the one assuming falsity of a direct quote from a character. Occam’s Razor says to believe the character’s statement UNLESS there is contradicting evidence against it (which there isn’t in this case).
What would Occam's Razor say about Moro never encountering Broly? There are only 26 planets with intelligent life and we saw his henchmen discover a few of them so there shouldn't be many left after two months.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:25 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:36 am
Helios518 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:57 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:49 am

My argument is better than your one trying to find a flaw where there isn’t any. The simple fact is: According to Piccolo, Moro is at a level beyond what training alone can overcome. Jiren (not Geran) is exactly the the type of character that trains alone. Solo! There’s just no way to deny Piccolo’s statement. It’s as clear as day. As for what characters “know” about other characters, well that’s pure headcanon, the fact is, Toyotaro had a character state what HE believes is the case. They’re only there for narration purposes. It’s not your job as the audience to decide what an in-universe character knows about another in-universe character.
I literally have link below why I put Geran but I guess I need to make it bigger now and no, if Piccolo’s statement is fact merely because he said it then every line in manga is fact (including villains being cocky) because they’re what Toyotaro truly believes and it isn’t your job to determine what a character knows. Otherwise, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Toyotaro is saying that specific line for narration purposes instead of Piccolo just saying a hyperbole.
Piccolo’s statement is consistent with the fact that Moro is a fused being of some sorts and that he appears later than Jiren. So ofcourse his statement seems true. Jiren can’t overcome him, just like this all powerful Vegeta couldn’t. You are the one assuming falsity of a direct quote from a character. Occam’s Razor says to believe the character’s statement UNLESS there is contradicting evidence against it (which there isn’t in this case).

Why are you so desperate to defend Jiren? What’s in it for you? I don’t see the point for people to be this conservative and anti progressive. Dragon Ball has a clear power progression, like Miracles perfectly explained, yet you guys want to clinge and hold on to old, outdated, ancient beliefs (the power of Jiren). He’s the past now.
The thing contradicting Piccolo is that he’s not an omniscient god that knows who can do what with training. You’ll need to prove to me that Toyotaro is using him for narrative purposes (via interview or author comments) otherwise you’re just assuming what Toyotaro is doesn’t. Occam’s Razor is that “Piccolos doing a hyperbole of power” not “him spitting a fact because somehow we know that he’s Toyotaro is using him a vessel to state that fact.”

Also free me with this “conservative” and “anti-progressive” stuff. Saying that Dragon Ball always sticks to a “clear power progression” is a “conservative” mindset because you think there can’t be exceptions to it. Regardless, this is the biggest fake-deep thing I’ve probably heard in this thread
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:17 am

If Moro can't be overcomed just by training? How do you think Goku got strong enough to beat him up to a pulp? Was he gifted that power? Did he steal it like Moro? Or did he train it for six months and unlocked it after Merus' final push?

Is it another of those ALWAYS BUT NOT ALWAYS kind of situations ?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:42 am

During the ToP, all Z fighters on the sidelines could watch MUI Goku’s movements against Jiren during their “full power” battle.

During the beginning of the Moro Arc however, they couldn’t even see UI Sign Goku’s movements when he was speedblitzing Saganbo! Only Jaco could see it because of his superior eye sight.

UIO Goku (Moro Arc) >>> ToP MUI Goku!

And these versions of Gohan and Piccolo are wayyyy stronger than the ones from the ToP, as stated by Goku that he “couldn’t even recognize them!”
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:42 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:17 am
If Moro can't be overcomed just by training? How do you think Goku got strong enough to beat him up to a pulp? Was he gifted that power? Did he steal it like Moro? Or did he train it for six months and unlocked it after Merus' final push?

Is it another of those ALWAYS BUT NOT ALWAYS kind of situations ?
He transformed mid battle. Have you even read this chapter?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:49 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:42 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:17 am
If Moro can't be overcomed just by training? How do you think Goku got strong enough to beat him up to a pulp? Was he gifted that power? Did he steal it like Moro? Or did he train it for six months and unlocked it after Merus' final push?

Is it another of those ALWAYS BUT NOT ALWAYS kind of situations ?
He transformed mid battle. Have you even read this chapter?
You accuse me of not reading it buy yet call it a transformation?

Anyway, didn't he train for months in order to be able "transform" mid battle?


Also, your post above was already debunked weeks ago. They could follow Omen vs Moro fight, they knew what was going and even commented on it.
They had no idea what happened in the final part of MUI vs Jiren, they even commented on it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:28 am

These speed feats in the manga are utter nonsense, mostly because it's super arbitrary. At least the anime went out of the way to point out that, when Jiren and UI Goku start duking it out, only the Gods of Destruction and those close to that level or above it could see the fight that's happening.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:24 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:03 pm
After Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta delivered a full-power power-punch to Moro’s gut and it still had no effect at all
But you don't know it would have had an effect on Jiren at his full strength. It could have had even less of an affect on Jiren for all we know.

Jiren was less affected from Ultra Instinct Goku's blows than Moro. Goku kicked Jiren in the gut and he came back with an energy attack straight away. Goku kicked Moro and he started begging for his life.

In fact there was a similar scene too where Goku did a back kick at Jiren and he withstood it, grabbed his leg and threw him. Goku did a back kick at Moro and he was sent hurtling into his own attack and lost an arm.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:54 am

Helios518 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:25 am
Also free me with this “conservative” and “anti-progressive” stuff. Saying that Dragon Ball always sticks to a “clear power progression” is a “conservative” mindset because you think there can’t be exceptions to it. Regardless, this is the biggest fake-deep thing I’ve probably heard in this thread
If we're talking "old, outdated, ancient beliefs" then something Toriyama said years ago would qualify more than Jiren's power since it hasn't been made clear if he's been surpassed by the next two antagonists. It was shown or stated that Piccolo Jr < Raditz < Nappa < Vegeta < Freeza < Future Trunks < Cyborgs < 16 < Cell < Buu < Beerus but it becomes harder to tell after that.

Golden Freeza, Hit, and Goku Black are at some level around SSJB and there's no clear indication how they compare to each other. Jiren was a huge jump in power since it was when a form was being introduced and it was made obvious he was vastly stronger than these three. In typical DB fashion, he defeats a previous antagonist to show off his power as well. Then it gets vague again and we don't get any direct statements comparing Jiren, Broly, and Moro and all we know for sure is that they're all much stronger than SSJB but weaker than MUI. This arc had the perfect opportunity to give us a direct comparison between Moro and Broly since Moro is going out of his way to find energy to absorb across the universe but doesn't run into Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Daisuki » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:54 pm

Just chiming in real quick because I haven’t seen this mentioned yet in the discussion - regarding statements of Moro’s power relative to Beerus, we do get this in Ch. 59 from the man himself as he powers up against UI Sign Goku:

Image

Of course, this is coming from Moro, and in-universe we have no indication that Moro has fought the likes of a God of Destruction, but out-of-universe the authorial intention is there that at FP Moro is meant to be understood to be on roughly the same level as Beerus, Jiren, Broly, SSB Fusion, et al.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:31 pm

How Vegeta compares to Jiren now depends on how Omen Goku right now compares to Jiren


Omen Goku right now >>> Omen TOP, and Omen in the TOP made Jiren use his FP, and SSJBE Vegeta > Omen

So I'd say Vegeta would be at least comparable, if not > JIren in general

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:44 pm

We don't know for sure that Vegeta is above Goku's Omen.

All we can say about that is that the two are roughly in the same ballpark which should mean that Vegeta should be more powerful than Jiren at least up to the point where he had another power up in order to face MUI Goku.

Vegeta most likely is not as strong as Jiren at that point seeing as he took blows from MUI Goku where Vegeta couldn't do the same against the weaker Moro.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:03 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:44 pm
We don't know for sure that Vegeta is above Goku's Omen.

All we can say about that is that the two are roughly in the same ballpark which should mean that Vegeta should be more powerful than Jiren at least up to the point where he had another power up in order to face MUI Goku.

Vegeta most likely is not as strong as Jiren at that point seeing as he took blows from MUI Goku where Vegeta couldn't do the same against the weaker Moro.
Yes.. We do.. Xeno... Yes, we do.

Vegeta has been confirmed stronger than UI Omen Goku by 3 different characters at least:

1. By Goku himself.
2. By Piccolo.
3. By Moro.

There’s literally no way that you can deny this.

In fact, even the actual FEATS themselves show that much. Omen Goku got one shotted by Moro last month. Out of Omen, into Base Form!

Vegeta got 3 shots from Moro 73, fell to the ground, and still wasn’t out of Blue Evolution form. He hadn’t reverted to Base yet, and was about to stand up again. It took a fully powered Big Bang attack by Moro 73, to put Vegeta down for good. Reverting him to Base Form, and making him lose consciousness.

It took Moro-73 4 shots to revert Vegeta back to Base.

Please do your research properly next time.
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