Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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GodVegetto91
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:30 pm

Thani wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:06 pm He has to be trolling. Because this
Is nowhere near the same performance as this
You really need to stop refering to other users as “trolls”. That is highly offensive, and is against the spirit of Kanzenshuu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:39 pm

Yeah, what? Vegito had an easier time in DBS than against Buuhan, only in his base form he blew half of Zamasu away! while Goku vs Zamasu has to be one of the most even fights of DBS.
Where's the logic in thinking just one arc later Vegeta alone will surpass Vegito Blue with no training at all aside of a spar with Beerus that set clear he had only caught up to Goku with PB?


To move away from topics that have already been covered:

1) UI Goku and Merus, how do you guys feel they compare to each other?
While Merus probably wasn't going all out, what Goku did to Moro was brutal, Merus was just dominating him, Goku put him down with one good blow.

2) If Broly were to go FPSS in Vampa, would his ki signature come up on Earth? even from such a far planet would people feel that?

3) What non-god ki character could do such a thing? to be felt from far away planets? a SS3 on New Namek could be felt from Earth? was SS3 Goku felt from Earth vs Kid Buu?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:16 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:39 pm
1) UI Goku and Merus, how do you guys feel they compare to each other?
While Merus probably wasn't going all out, what Goku did to Moro was brutal, Merus was just dominating him, Goku put him down with one good blow.

2) If Broly were to go FPSS in Vampa, would his ki signature come up on Earth? even from such a far planet would people feel that?

3) What non-god ki character could do such a thing? to be felt from far away planets? a SS3 on New Namek could be felt from Earth? was SS3 Goku felt from Earth vs Kid Buu?
1) I don't feel like Goku is at the level of an angel yet, but it is true he definitely hurt Moro more with his 1 punch than Merus' final punch to Moro's head. I do kind of wonder if Merus could've just one-shotted Moro, I guess he really wanted Goku to learn UI?

2) Hard to say, I never really understood this stuff very well. Goku manages to find base Broly just fine at the end of the movie by teleporting to him. I don't really know how ki sensing works, if being familiar with someone makes them easy to find. Knowing the direction seems to help, like Goku finding new namek when they're all weaklings.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:08 pm

Skar wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:04 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:58 amI’m not seeing how it was established that Beerus has been surpassed, there isn’t a single conclusive statement about it. Only achism from Shin and Goku.
Let's say Shin and Goku were wrong and that Beerus was holding back in every instance we've seen him fight another GoD. How much stronger do you think Beerus will be compared to Jiren, Broly, and the other GoDs? It could be revealed that Beerus was motivated to train again with Whis after witnessing MUI to gain better control of UI but at best I could see them being equal once Goku fully masters it.
Based on how Beerus describes Goku’s movements, it seems like he can potentially do something similar. I honestly don’t see how Goku can get better than he currently is. So, perhaps this is what the Oracle Fish was talking about? Anyway, it’s hard to tell how Beerus compares to the other Gods, since most of their fight went off-panel and from what we could see he is able to take almost all of them in hand-to-hand combat and even make them lose track of his movements.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:58 pm

Gap between ToP to Moro arc Goku > omen to MUi

Image
Image


People main excuse is that Omen to UI is so massive that their is no way Goku closed that gap in power

Meanwhile, Sanganbo >> Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18 > Blue Goku ToP

Goku vs Sanganbo was no different then MUI vs Moro

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:41 am

Miracles wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:51 pm"Blue Vegetto is just as strong/stronger than Beerus back in FT arc." OK, yet two arcs later, a stronger Blue fusion is needed to defeat someone who is "just as strong/stronger than Beerus." Who was surpassed two arcs ago by Vegetto Blue? Either Beerus is surpassed by a weaker fusion back in Trunks arc or he is stronger than Vegetto Blue since he needs a more powerful fusion to beat him much later.

There is no in between here.
To be honest the only people struggling to understand this are you and GodVegetto91 because you're refusing to take any statement at face value and trying to explain away anything that could conflict with what Toriyama said during BoG. If someone asked Toriyama in an interview about what Goku said regarding Broly, what do you think Toriyama's response would be? Would he say it's true to give the audience an idea how strong the character is like he's done many times before in the original manga or would he say he wrote in this line with the intent of it being false?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:35 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:39 pm 1) UI Goku and Merus, how do you guys feel they compare to each other?
While Merus probably wasn't going all out, what Goku did to Moro was brutal, Merus was just dominating him, Goku put him down with one good blow.
Goku's heavy blow to Moro took time--Merus is fighting against the clock to do the most useful damage he can (targeting Moro's copy ability) before fading away. If Merus was unsure of his ability to destroy Moro before vanishing, that was the best use of his time.

It seems I'm on the conservative side with most things, but unless there's dialogue or clear, clear indication to the contrary, I'm reluctant to put Goku above any angels--who, like the Gods of Destruction, it seems most expedient to treat as a group, even with some differences within their collective realm of power.
2) If Broly were to go FPSS in Vampa, would his ki signature come up on Earth? even from such a far planet would people feel that?

Given the series' presedent of powers of Cell's level and above being sensed by spiritually attuned races half a galaxy away? Certainly. But likely only to spiritually attuned races or individuals in the first place, as is true of ki-sensing, and especially long-distance ki-sensing, generally. Similarly, I would expect that Golden Freeza's ki could be picked up from vast distances by similar races and individuals. Same for Moro in combat--anyone in that realm with non-divine ki, really.

Whether or not the series would bother holding true to that is another matter, since it is a bit of an inconvenient element to always have to address. But from the strictest in-universe lens, it seems like the answer should be yes.
Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18 > Blue Goku ToP
Sorry, what and where does this come from? It's not impossible, but I certainly can't recall anything confirming or even all that heavily implying it. All we have is that Piccolo and Gohan got stronger. (By how much? Neither the dialogue nor action gives us anything clear.)

Or do you just mean the four of them together should represent greater opposition than just fighting ToP Goku would have? That I could buy, through the combination of #17 and Gohan alone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am

Sorry, what and where does this come from? It's not impossible, but I certainly can't recall anything confirming or even all that heavily implying it. All we have is that Piccolo and Gohan got stronger. (By how much? Neither the dialogue nor action gives us anything clear.)

Or do you just mean the four of them together should represent greater opposition than just fighting ToP Goku would have? That I could buy, through the combination of #17 and Gohan alone.
Yea all four together, individually i'd say Gohan has the best bet though

But yeah my point is Blue Goku > Sanganbo > Gohan, 17, 18, Piccolo (all together) > Blue Goku ToP

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:32 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:01 am
Sorry, what and where does this come from? It's not impossible, but I certainly can't recall anything confirming or even all that heavily implying it. All we have is that Piccolo and Gohan got stronger. (By how much? Neither the dialogue nor action gives us anything clear.)

Or do you just mean the four of them together should represent greater opposition than just fighting ToP Goku would have? That I could buy, through the combination of #17 and Gohan alone.
Yea all four together, individually i'd say Gohan has the best bet though

But yeah my point is Blue Goku > Sanganbo > Gohan, 17, 18, Piccolo (all together) > Blue Goku ToP
But is that type of aggregation particularly meaningful in Dragon Ball? It doesn't have much history of taking 'strength in numbers' very seriously.

Piccolo + Kuririn + Gohan + Tenshinhan + Chaozu were > Nappa when taken together in their fight - heck, arguably, they were stronger than Goku at the time (going by official numbers, at least), but we all saw how their 'opposition' turned out.

I don't think there's really much assurance in making that sort of comparison.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:48 am

I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a Vegeta from 1 Arc later, is superior to a Vegito from 1 Arc back?

Remember that Vegeta’s form, is not just 1, (but 2!) Evolutions above the form that Vegito used during the Future Trunks Arc.

Vegito used regular, untrained SSJ Blue.

Vegeta has Completed SSJ Blue at his disposal (which is VASTLY stronger than regular SSJ Blue as we saw in Goku’s performance against Merged Zamasu!)

And THAN, (on top of it) he has SSJ Blue Evolved! Which again, is a MASSIVE increase in power and abilities, which was clearly showcased during his attack on Jiren!

So it’s not an extreme idea AT ALL, that End of ToP SSJ Blue Evolved Vegeta is superior to regular SSJ Blue Vegito from the Zamasu Arc...

I’ve said it before but I’m going to say it again, I have THAT Vegito somewhere between Perfected SSJ Blue Vegeta and SSJ Blue Evolved Vegeta!

But that’s just my opinion, and you’re free to disagree with it. But don’t call others a troll who have a different point of view from your own.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:23 am

With the current scope of things being that even the base forms of current Fusions are equal to or above Goku and Vegeta's standard god forms, it's really hard to believe that something like SSBE is THAT much stronger now.

Ultra Instinct works fine because it's an entirely different transformation lineage that almost seems to be excluded from the potential that Fusions gain.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:29 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:48 am I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a Vegeta from 1 Arc later, is superior to a Vegito from 1 Arc back?
I think it's hard to believe. Base Gogeta seemed to be stronger than the individual SSJBs in DBS: Broly so I assume base Vegetto is also stronger in base than his fusees highest forms (edit: PerhapsTheOtherOne beat me to it with this example :thumbup:). The most conservative estimate between base and SSJB would be a few thousand times stronger at least. Could Vegeta get that powerful by just mastering Blue then getting an upgrade to that form? In the anime, Evolution was said to equal to Blue Kaioken x20 so I can't imagine it would offer a higher boost in the manga especially since it's usually more conservative than the anime when it came to power-ups.

I think a common misconception is that a character stated to have become stronger is automatically assumed to be an astronomically huge jump in power. Even with all the training and transformations Goku reached throughout DBZ, his base was still weaker than Freeza in BoG. Some fans argue he was suppressed but it raises the question of why Toriyama would include that line if it was intended to be wrong and not have anyone correct it. We don't know how much stronger Goku and Vegeta grown in Blue since RoF just "stronger".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:19 am

Now again, I’m not saying that Vegeta is definitively stronger than that Vegito Blue.. Maybe he’s not. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you guys are right! For the Manga that is...

In the Anime, ToP Vegeta is DEFINITELY stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! (Because episode 109 and 110 showed us the greatest powers ever up until that point) and a regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta later, did much better against Jiren than even Goku’s Kaioken x20 did!

So,

Manga: Unclear.

Anime: ToP SSBE Vegeta > ToP SSB Vegeta > FT Arc SSJ Blue Vegito!

That said, for the Manga.. Beerus is DEFINITELY stronger than FT Arc SSB Vegito!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:47 am

Yeah, I don't think either version is stronger than Vegito at all. Jiren sandbags a lot, pretty much never using his absolute full power until the very end.

What really settles it for me is Jiren's performance against Goku when they were battling over the Spirit Bomb. That's probably Jiren's greatest feat prior to facing off against Ultra Instinct, even more so than his later fights against Universe 7's fighters.

No antagonist in the entire canonical continuity (original manga/anime and DBS) has ever actually fully deflected the Spirit Bomb. Not Vegeta, Freeza, or even Majin Buu. The last of these 3, Pure/Kid Buu who was almost as strong as SS3 Goku, only barely managed to keep it back despite Goku being tired out as all heck and in his base form; as soon as he regained his energy and turned Super Saiyan, Pure Buu couldn't push it back anymore. But Jiren? He glared it to a stalemate WITH EASE despite Goku being in SSB amplified by Kaioken by 20 times and putting literally everything he had into it, and Jiren was still far from his full power; in terms of raw power against raw power, Jiren was quite literally unfathomably stronger.

That is an absolutely ridiculous difference in power, and aside from new forms, none of Universe 7's fighters ever even approached this level of difference. And from the way I saw how things played, nobody was getting over 20 times stronger in the same form at all; the standings of their various states remained relatively consistent.

Such a gigantic gap is definitely Fusion-level solely based on how strong current SSB Fusions are on a numerical level, and nobody ever truly bridged that gap besides Ultra Instinct Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:49 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:58 pm
Goku vs Sanganbo was no different then MUI vs Moro
Except after that panel, this happened, Saganbo recovered in mid-air and came back at Goku, taking Goku longer to put him down, and even then Saganbo got up immediately:
While after Moro got gently tapped on the shoulder and thrown away, he hit the floor and ended up on his ass wondering what the hell just happened. The second blow Moro took was too much for him, he was like Cell vs Gohan, Saganbo took at least 4 and was ready for more.

Just because they have similar paneling doesn't mean it was the same kind of fight.
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:19 am Now again, I’m not saying that Vegeta is definitively stronger than that Vegito Blue.. Maybe he’s not. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you guys are right! For the Manga that is...

In the Anime, ToP Vegeta is DEFINITELY stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! (Because episode 109 and 110 showed us the greatest powers ever up until that point) and a regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta later, did much better against Jiren than even Goku’s Kaioken x20 did!

So,

Manga: Unclear.

Anime: ToP SSBE Vegeta > ToP SSB Vegeta > FT Arc SSJ Blue Vegito!

That said, for the Manga.. Beerus is DEFINITELY stronger than FT Arc SSB Vegito!
It really isn't. Vegito was compared to Beerus, period. They were placed on the same boat, so to surpass one of them means pretty much surpassing the other. Vegeta never ever got close to that level up until the Moro arc, if at all. Vegito in base did more than Perfect Blue Goku, so no, SSBE was not close to Vegito by the ToP arc, because it would need SSBE to be thousands of times stronger than PB. It's not about the forms, it's about the user and FT base Vegito > ToP base Vegeta.

And in the anime we don't even have a comparison for Vegito, all we know is he was not included in Shin's statement because he clearly said opponents, and he was overwhelming the strongest opponent before defusing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:33 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:49 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:58 pm
Goku vs Sanganbo was no different then MUI vs Moro
Except after that panel, this happened, Saganbo recovered in mid-air and came back at Goku, taking Goku longer to put him down, and even then Saganbo got up immediately:
While after Moro got gently tapped on the shoulder and thrown away, he hit the floor and ended up on his ass wondering what the hell just happened. The second blow Moro took was too much for him, he was like Cell vs Gohan, Saganbo took at least 4 and was ready for more.

Just because they have similar paneling doesn't mean it was the same kind of fight.
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:19 am Now again, I’m not saying that Vegeta is definitively stronger than that Vegito Blue.. Maybe he’s not. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you guys are right! For the Manga that is...

In the Anime, ToP Vegeta is DEFINITELY stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! (Because episode 109 and 110 showed us the greatest powers ever up until that point) and a regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta later, did much better against Jiren than even Goku’s Kaioken x20 did!

So,

Manga: Unclear.

Anime: ToP SSBE Vegeta > ToP SSB Vegeta > FT Arc SSJ Blue Vegito!

That said, for the Manga.. Beerus is DEFINITELY stronger than FT Arc SSB Vegito!
It really isn't. Vegito was compared to Beerus, period. They were placed on the same boat, so to surpass one of them means pretty much surpassing the other. Vegeta never ever got close to that level up until the Moro arc, if at all. Vegito in base did more than Perfect Blue Goku, so no, SSBE was not close to Vegito by the ToP arc, because it would need SSBE to be thousands of times stronger than PB. It's not about the forms, it's about the user and FT base Vegito > ToP base Vegeta.

And in the anime we don't even have a comparison for Vegito, all we know is he was not included in Shin's statement because he clearly said opponents, and he was overwhelming the strongest opponent before defusing.
Yet Jiren was not compared directly to Beerus, and we KNOW that Jiren is far stronger than Vegito Blue from the Zamasu Arc. Broly was compared to Beerus because he actually WAS stronger than Jiren, and THAT’S why he was compared to Beerus directly (the STRONGEST GoD!) and not just some random “God of Destruction” Level (Whatever that means!)

Broly >>> Jiren >> SSJ Blue Vegito (Future Trunks Arc).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:48 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:33 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:49 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:19 am Now again, I’m not saying that Vegeta is definitively stronger than that Vegito Blue.. Maybe he’s not. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you guys are right! For the Manga that is...

In the Anime, ToP Vegeta is DEFINITELY stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! (Because episode 109 and 110 showed us the greatest powers ever up until that point) and a regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta later, did much better against Jiren than even Goku’s Kaioken x20 did!

So,

Manga: Unclear.

Anime: ToP SSBE Vegeta > ToP SSB Vegeta > FT Arc SSJ Blue Vegito!

That said, for the Manga.. Beerus is DEFINITELY stronger than FT Arc SSB Vegito!
It really isn't. Vegito was compared to Beerus, period. They were placed on the same boat, so to surpass one of them means pretty much surpassing the other. Vegeta never ever got close to that level up until the Moro arc, if at all. Vegito in base did more than Perfect Blue Goku, so no, SSBE was not close to Vegito by the ToP arc, because it would need SSBE to be thousands of times stronger than PB. It's not about the forms, it's about the user and FT base Vegito > ToP base Vegeta.

And in the anime we don't even have a comparison for Vegito, all we know is he was not included in Shin's statement because he clearly said opponents, and he was overwhelming the strongest opponent before defusing.
Yet Jiren was not compared directly to Beerus, and we KNOW that Jiren is far stronger than Vegito Blue from the Zamasu Arc. Broly was compared to Beerus because he actually WAS stronger than Jiren, and THAT’S why he was compared to Beerus directly (the STRONGEST GoD!) and not just some random “God of Destruction” Level (Whatever that means!)

Broly >>> Jiren >> SSJ Blue Vegito (Future Trunks Arc).
Ok, what? seriously, what do Broly and Jiren have to do in this discussion? how did we go from Vegito vs Vegeta to Broly vs Jiren?

Anyway, in the anime Jiren was not compared to Beerus but Belmod was.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:41 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:11 pm The only one that I can see making any sort of sense here, is Miracles.
I'm just going with the story. It's just contradictory to the plot and logic itself. For the fans to say a weaker fusion in Future Trunks arc BlueVegetto is just as strong/stronger than Beerus back then. Yet at the same time, claim, Beerus is just as strong as an enemy that needs a stronger fusion in Broly arc Blue Gogeta to beat him later. It makes no sense. In order to make this outlandish claim true one needs to ignore the power escalation rules that Toriyama has set. As well as the prophetic battle Beerus is suppose to have with Goku down the line. No enemy will be stronger than Beerus until he is defeated.
Skar wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:41 am
Miracles wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:51 pm"Blue Vegetto is just as strong/stronger than Beerus back in FT arc." OK, yet two arcs later, a stronger Blue fusion is needed to defeat someone who is "just as strong/stronger than Beerus." Who was surpassed two arcs ago by Vegetto Blue? Either Beerus is surpassed by a weaker fusion back in Trunks arc or he is stronger than Vegetto Blue since he needs a more powerful fusion to beat him much later.

There is no in between here.
To be honest the only people struggling to understand this are you and GodVegetto91 because you're refusing to take any statement at face value and trying to explain away anything that could conflict with what Toriyama said during BoG. If someone asked Toriyama in an interview about what Goku said regarding Broly, what do you think Toriyama's response would be? Would he say it's true to give the audience an idea how strong the character is like he's done many times before in the original manga or would he say he wrote in this line with the intent of it being false?
On the contrary, it's a lot of the fandom [particular many of you here] not taking things at face value. You guys think you have freedom to interpret a story outside the realms of the established rules. With no context whatsoever, as if DB's story is relative, based on one's views/opinions.

First the fandom can't understand that Shin used the non factual word "MAYBE" concerning Vegetto and Beerus. That Goku also used an assumptive word in "PROBABLY" concerning Broly and Beerus. You have to understand, when a story uses those words It's NOT stating a fact. It's using GUESS WORK. That means those NON definitive statements are subject to change. Which is what exactly happened with Beerus.

Do you know why? Because of the ESCALATING power scaling that happens every arc. Beerus being compared to Vegetto was not an established TRUTH it was conjecture...Theory PROVEN wrong when Beerus was hypothesized LATER to be as strong as a villain that required a stronger fusion than FT Vegetto to beat. You can't say Beerus was placed in a weaker power scaling slot in the past [FT arc] then say he moved up the ladder in a stronger slot later [Broly arc]. This only happened because Shin didn't outright say Vegetto IS/DID surpass Beerus, he stated "MAYBE". You can't say Broly is as strong/stronger than Beerus, Goku only said "PROBABLY." That's taking things at face value.

Again, this all lines up and demonstrates Toriyama stating that the next enemy is "always" "strongest." Do you know what "always" means at face value? That Toriyama's plot point never stops. This perpetual DB rule does not contradict what has happened/said in the story. The story only confirms Toriyama's laws on the enemies escalating. This is exactly why Beerus is currently standing over a much stronger UI Goku. Much more than the one Jiren faced; And not phased but only interested in his growth. Like a teacher watches over a student. In order for the Oracle fish's battle prophecy concerning Beerus, Goku and Vegeta from BoG can be fulfilled. Also, Toriyama said that too back in a BoG interview. Taken at face value

Therefore, anyone trying to claim that the story contradicts Toriyama's rules is outright false. Taken at face value, the story establishes Toriyama's laws. Beerus is not surpassed since his comparison's in the past was guess work. Those statements, based on assumptions were proven wrong when Beerus gets compared to stronger enemies later. He moved up the power scaling chart in the next arc. FT Vegetto Blue can not be on Beerus level, since Beerus needs a stronger fusion to beat him in Goku's future assumption [Broly]. Now Beerus is in an arc after that, with a stronger villain and only giving "bit of" respect to a UI Goku who is stronger than Moro. A villain that is stronger than Broly and Jiren. All so Toriyama's law of the next enemy stronger than the last can be fulfilled. So it can fall in line with Beerus prophetic showdown with Goku, who will be stronger than all the rest of the enemies that came before him when the time comes. Taken at face value, thus says Toriyama.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:11 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:19 amIn the Anime, ToP Vegeta is DEFINITELY stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! (Because episode 109 and 110 showed us the greatest powers ever up until that point) and a regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta later, did much better against Jiren than even Goku’s Kaioken x20 did!
It might be Jiren holding back or Toei's writers not really being on the same page because I remember a few times when something happened in one episode and ignored in a later episode. In the original manga, midbattle power-ups were usually new transformations, Zenkais after being healed, or a temporary rage boost for Gohan. Getting that much stronger in the middle of the battle in the same form sounds like a shonen trope that Toriyama hasn't used so I think it would've been stated if Vegetto had been surpassed by them.

It was usually clear when a character surpassed a previous milestone by either a comparison or having them defeat someone close to that power. We knew SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta were stronger than Cell Games Gohan because it was stated so we didn't have to guess based on how much we think they improved. Goku didn't think fusion would be enough against Beerus but couldn't believe SSJG's power could exist which means it's stronger than Buu saga Vegetto. We don't really know if Jiren is that much stronger than SSJB Vegetto since both were said to be above a GoD so they might not be that far apart.

(Edit since I saw your comment after I posted)
Miracles wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:41 pmFirst the fandom can't understand that Shin used the non factual word "MAYBE" concerning Vegetto and Beerus. That Goku also used an assumptive word in "PROBABLY" concerning Broly and Beerus. You have to understand, when a story uses those words It's NOT stating a fact. It's using GUESS WORK. That means those NON definitive statements are subject to change. Which is what exactly happened with Beerus.
I've asked this before but you're not explaining why any author would go out of their way to have multiple characters give false information. It goes against basic storytelling because the author could simply not have the character say that line in the first place. The Buu saga already established that fusion was far stronger than sum of its parts so there's no point in mentioning a character who isn't even present unless it's meant to give us an idea how strong Vegetto has become. Jiren could've been just a powerful mortal only stated to be above his universe's GoD candidate without mentioning any actual GoDs. Broly was so powerful that Goku and Vegeta needed to fuse against him so it's clear enough he's really strong without including a misleading line comparing him to Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:35 pm

Skar wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:11 pm(Edit since I saw your comment after I posted)
Miracles wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:41 pmFirst the fandom can't understand that Shin used the non factual word "MAYBE" concerning Vegetto and Beerus. That Goku also used an assumptive word in "PROBABLY" concerning Broly and Beerus. You have to understand, when a story uses those words It's NOT stating a fact. It's using GUESS WORK. That means those NON definitive statements are subject to change. Which is what exactly happened with Beerus.
I've asked this before but you're not explaining why any author would go out of their way to have multiple characters give false information. It goes against basic storytelling because the author could simply not have the character say that line in the first place. The Buu saga already established that fusion was far stronger than sum of its parts so there's no point in mentioning a character who isn't even present unless it's meant to give us an idea how strong Vegetto has become. Jiren could've been just a powerful mortal only stated to be above his universe's GoD candidate without mentioning any actual GoDs. Broly was so powerful that Goku and Vegeta needed to fuse against him so it's clear enough he's really strong without including a misleading line comparing him to Beerus.
The story answered your question...The statements made concerning Beerus were uncertain, contrary to fact. They were stated as guesses. So they are NOT wrong. The ones who are wrong are those putting those lines as fact. Despite the story updating Beerus placement with more hypothetical's. Since the story is uncertain about Beerus by never truly defining him in a tier of power yet. "Maybe" and "probably's" give the story leniency to move him up the ladder since he is protected by characters lack of knowledge about him. The story is right by telling us that Beerus is a mystery. Characters don't know how powerful the guy is but they know he is the cream of the crop. That's why the current "strongest" are only attempted to be compared to him in theory, not fact.

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