Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

It was you wrongfully trying to tell me that the story presented those two statements as fact, when in truth they did not. I merely corrected you on this. It was you trying to tell me that Toriyama's plot narrative about the next enemy "always" being strongest was wrong. I pointed out the impossibility of your claims which are contrary to established facts. Now you can believe what you want but you can't tell me facts are obsolete based on their date or you reading the story's statements incorrectly.

When I did claim they were facts? I said that I believe these statements until another character disputes them because that's what Toriyama always did when he wants the audience to know that a character is wrong. Does anyone believe Golden Freeza, Hit, and Goku Black are stronger than Beerus? No because the story makes it clear they're weaker than him. If these statements didn't exist, would anyone randomly argue that Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly are stronger than Beerus?

Why not replace these statements with something like "Vegetto is nearly as powerful as Beerus", "Jiren is stronger than Belmod and may one day surpass the most powerful GoD, Beerus", "Broly is almost as strong as Beerus". Most of us here aren't as perceptive as you and able to read through the lines so why not just confirm they're weaker than Beerus or not include these statements in the first place so we wouldn't be confused and get the wrong idea?

[Miracles]

Since Goku flat out said Broly was "the stronger" against him, unlike with Beerus. There was complete certainty in the first claim and doubt in the second. The difference is right there.

If someone says 'x is much stronger than me, and probably even stronger than y', all you're meant to take from the statement that x is likely to be the strongest of the three people under discussion. That's it. Unless you have anything else to tip that balance, you have no reason to read it the way you do, which is tendentious.

Moreover, can you provide me with a statement to the effect that anyone in the story thinks that Beerus is stronger than Broly? Or not? If not, you have less evidence for your position than there is for the contrary.

You are working overtime to make uncertainty certain. Even your example proves this untruth. It flat out stated that X is much stronger than you. Then says, probably even stronger than Y as an assumption. Same thing with Goku's statement. Both claims [your example and Goku's] were in contrast, one being certain and unsure in the other.

It was you wrongfully trying to tell me that the story presented those two statements as fact, when in truth they did not. I merely corrected you on this. It was you trying to tell me that Toriyama's plot narrative about the next enemy "always" being strongest was wrong. I pointed out the impossibility of your claims which are contrary to established facts. Now you can believe what you want but you can't tell me facts are obsolete based on their date or you reading the story's statements incorrectly.

When I did claim they were facts? I said that I believe these statements until another character disputes them because that's what Toriyama always did when he wants the audience to know that a character is wrong. Does anyone believe Golden Freeza, Hit, and Goku Black are stronger than Beerus? No because the story makes it clear they're weaker than him. If these statements didn't exist, would anyone randomly argue that Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly are stronger than Beerus?

Why not replace these statements with something like "Vegetto is nearly as powerful as Beerus", "Jiren is stronger than Belmod and may one day surpass the most powerful GoD, Beerus", "Broly is almost as strong as Beerus". Most of us here aren't as perceptive as you and able to read through the lines so why not just confirm they're weaker than Beerus or not include these statements in the first place so we wouldn't be confused and get the wrong idea?

You took lines with "maybe" and "probably" in them and claimed you can't see the author intended for them to be wrong. That's when I pointed out to you they were never right [fact] or wrong in the first place but released as unknowns. You tried to read between the lines and define off uncertain dialogue. I took the story at face value and how Toriyama "always" governs his story.

[Skar]

You took lines with "maybe" and "probably" in them and claimed you can't see the author intended for them to be wrong. That's when I pointed out to you they were never right [fact] or wrong in the first place but released as unknowns. You tried to read between the lines and define off uncertain dialogue. I took the story at face value and how Toriyama "always" governs his story.

I'm not sure how you could claim this unless you've forgotten or hoping no one doublechecked the original because that's not how "Toriyama always governs his story". We've already been over this a few times and I've pointed out that there are several examples of characters using the words "maybe" or "probably" in the original manga. Many of them ended up being true but those that were intended to be false were proven wrong by the end of the arc. For this to be consistent with how Toriyama always governs his story, we should've gotten confirmation that these statements were false by now if that's what he intended.

[Magnificent Ponta]

You are working overtime to make uncertainty certain.

No, I'm just giving due weight to evidence that you seem determined to ignore, for no particularly good reason, in favour of your presuppositions.

Can you provide me with a statement to the effect that anyone in the story thinks that Beerus is stronger than Broly? Or not? If not, you have less evidence for your position than there is for the contrary.

[Miracles]

You took lines with "maybe" and "probably" in them and claimed you can't see the author intended for them to be wrong. That's when I pointed out to you they were never right [fact] or wrong in the first place but released as unknowns. You tried to read between the lines and define off uncertain dialogue. I took the story at face value and how Toriyama "always" governs his story.

I'm not sure how you could claim this unless you've forgotten or hoping no one doublechecked the original because that's not how "Toriyama always governs his story". We've already been over this a few times and I've pointed out that there are several examples of characters using the words "maybe" or "probably" in the original manga. Many of them ended up being true but those that were intended to be false were proven wrong by the end of the arc. For this to be consistent with how Toriyama always governs his story, we should've gotten confirmation that these statements were false by now if that's what he intended.

"Maybe" with Vegetto was already debunked when Beerus moved up the fusion power scaling ladder with Broly. So "probably" doesn't mean auto true either. The original manga didn't make guess words like "probably" true to characters who were reserved to be "strongest" much later in the story. So, again, your example is a false equivalence.

You are working overtime to make uncertainty certain.

No, I'm just giving due weight to evidence that you seem determined to ignore, for no particularly good reason, in favour of your presuppositions.

Can you provide me with a statement to the effect that anyone in the story thinks that Beerus is stronger than Broly? Or not? If not, you have less evidence for your position than there is for the contrary.

Unrelated question. You made the claim as if Goku was making a statement of truth. He wasn't concerning Beerus. I told you, it was already uncertain in the story.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

At the moment, while current statements may have degrees of uncertainty, said uncertainty is definitely not that big of a factor in detracting from their validity compared to trying to extrapolate some kind of specific mindset pattern from Toriyama who ultimately only provides outlines and guidance and doesn't fill in all the details himself; Toyotaro and Toei do most of that themselves with supervision and approval from him.

In some regards, it's actually disingenuous to try and use Toriyama as a veil to hide behind in debates like this, as it assumes you know who Toriyama really is and how he thinks at a given moment, when current documentation and the progression of evidence indicates that, by all accounts, the man mostly does things on a whim and doesn't adhere to some kind of master plan; we don't personally know Toriyama, so we really shouldn't try to make claims in his name.

There's better and more reliable pieces of evidence that aren't subject to the changing ideas of a series creator who is no longer sole arbiter and judge of everything in the franchise, like stuff that's directly stated/shown in the various media that is the most current and up-to-date compared to things stated a long time ago that were already contradicted by new information.

[Skar]

"Maybe" with Vegetto was already debunked when Beerus moved up the fusion power scaling ladder with Broly. So "probably" doesn't mean auto true either. The original manga didn't make guess words like "probably" true to characters who were reserved to be "strongest" much later in the story. So, again, your example is a false equivalence.

A false equivalency is claiming this is "how Toriyama "always" governs his story" when he's never done this before. I think the reason you're struggling to convince anyone is because you keep ignoring every counterargument and continue to claim only your interpretations are valid. Nothing contradicts the idea that Vegetto and Broly are in the same ballpark so Gogeta is stronger now because Goku and Vegeta improved since then.

Once again, the interpretations you're choosing to use don't make sense to be what any author would intend. If Toriyama wanted to reserve Beerus as the strongest, there's no point in potentionally confusing the fans by having Goku believe Broly might be stronger. If this line was cut from the movie, no one will randomly assume Broly is above Beerus and you wouldn't have to go to all this trouble. You're arguing he included this line and he intended for the audience to debunk it themselves by remembering what the Oracle Fish implied several arcs ago. Usually a character makes a claim and then it's proven wrong later in the story. What purpose does this line about Broly serve if you're saying that it was wrong existed before Goku even said it?

[Magnificent Ponta]

Unrelated question.

As to the question of whether Beerus is stronger than Broly or not? No, it really isn't. I can hardly think of a more relevant question.

You made the claim as if Goku was making a statement of truth. He wasn't concerning Beerus. I told you, it was already uncertain in the story.

No, I've claimed that Goku thinks it is true, else he would not have said it in that way, and therefore that it is evidence in favour of Broly being stronger than Beerus.

Again, then: Can you provide me with a statement to the effect that anyone in the story thinks that Beerus is stronger than Broly? Or not? Because if not, you should just say so.

[Koitsukai]

Vegito was not debunked, actually the opposite happened, he was ratified when Gogeta Blue was clearly above Beerus' benchmark(Broly). If FT blue fusion was a match for Beerus, then after the ToP he should definitely be stronger than him. And he was seen stomping a Beerus-level character. In what way has all this been debunked?

Beerus >>>>> 10
Broly >>>>>> 10--to--10,1
FT blue fusion>>> 10--to- 10,1

ToP blue fusion >> 10,1--to--10,2 ??

Movie blue fusion >>> 10,3
Moro arc blue fusion >> 10,5 ??

If there's ever a rematch, Beerus will be presented as having been training or something, because his current level of power was already stated to have been at least reached by several characters whose level of power is now irrelevant (Broly was defeated, and Vegito Blue is much stronger than in the FT arc).

[Miracles]

"Maybe" with Vegetto was already debunked when Beerus moved up the fusion power scaling ladder with Broly. So "probably" doesn't mean auto true either. The original manga didn't make guess words like "probably" true to characters who were reserved to be "strongest" much later in the story. So, again, your example is a false equivalence.

A false equivalency is claiming this is "how Toriyama "always" governs his story" when he's never done this before. I think the reason you're struggling to convince anyone is because you keep ignoring every counterargument and continue to claim only your interpretations are valid. Nothing contradicts the idea that Vegetto and Broly are in the same ballpark so Gogeta is stronger now because Goku and Vegeta improved since then.

Once again, the interpretations you're choosing to use don't make sense to be what any author would intend. If Toriyama wanted to reserve Beerus as the strongest, there's no point in potentionally confusing the fans by having Goku believe Broly might be stronger. If this line was cut from the movie, no one will randomly assume Broly is above Beerus and you wouldn't have to go to all this trouble. You're arguing he included this line and he intended for the audience to debunk it themselves by remembering what the Oracle Fish implied several arcs ago. Usually a character makes a claim and then it's proven wrong later in the story. What purpose does this line about Broly serve if you're saying that it was wrong existed before Goku even said it?

You are having difficulty discerning fact from fiction. Toriyama himself said he "always" has the "strongest" enemy in the present. This is a fact of the story. It can't be argued. It's a definite claim. This is not my interpretation of the narrative. It's Toriyama's. Now you claiming that this isn't true, is fiction. Since it's only based off your interpretation. It is outside the confines of authority. Beerus is moved up the ladder again, here in the Moro arc, still awaiting for Goku. Who "will become a formidable rival" for Beerus. This is another fact that can not be argued. You are trying to side step these already established truth's by wrongly interpreting the author is using assumptive words like "probably" as fact.

Unrelated question.

As to the question of whether Beerus is stronger than Broly or not? No, it really isn't. I can hardly think of a more relevant question.

You made the claim as if Goku was making a statement of truth. He wasn't concerning Beerus. I told you, it was already uncertain in the story.

No, I've claimed that Goku thinks it is true, else he would not have said it in that way, and therefore that it is evidence in favour of Broly being stronger than Beerus.

Again, then: Can you provide me with a statement to the effect that anyone in the story thinks that Beerus is stronger than Broly? Or not? Because if not, you should just say so.

Goku presumably thinking something is not definitive fact. The story left it open. There is no need for another to think/assume with a counter. It will still leave us nowhere, without a straight answer.

[ankokudaishogun]

"Maybe" with Vegetto was already debunked when Beerus moved up the fusion power scaling ladder with Broly. So "probably" doesn't mean auto true either.

I don't get what you mean.
Vegetto(Black Saga)=maybe stronger tha Beerus
Broly=probably stronger than Beerus
Gogeta(Movie)=stronger than Broly, which means he's VERY probably stronger than Beeru
Gogeta(Movie) is NO DOUBT^{unless one believes there is a substantial difference in power between Potara Fusion and Fusion Dance} stronger than Vegetto(Black Saga) because its components also got sensibly stronger

Gogeta(Movie)>Broly>Vegetto(Black)~>Beerus

I don't see how Beerus' estimated power would change. Hell if anything it makes sense and gives a sense of progression if the estimate is correct.
Goku&Vegeta's fusion fighter went from "maybe" stronger than Beerus to "very probably" stronger than Beerus, as testament of its components improvement as fighters

[Miracles]

"Maybe" with Vegetto was already debunked when Beerus moved up the fusion power scaling ladder with Broly. So "probably" doesn't mean auto true either.

I don't get what you mean.
Vegetto(Black Saga)=maybe stronger tha Beerus
Broly=probably stronger than Beerus
Gogeta(Movie)=stronger than Broly, which means he's VERY probably stronger than Beeru
Gogeta(Movie) is NO DOUBT^{unless one believes there is a substantial difference in power between Potara Fusion and Fusion Dance} stronger than Vegetto(Black Saga) because its components also got sensibly stronger

Gogeta(Movie)>Broly>Vegetto(Black)~>Beerus

I don't see how Beerus' estimated power would change. Hell if anything it makes sense and gives a sense of progression if the estimate is correct.
Goku&Vegeta's fusion fighter went from "maybe" stronger than Beerus to "very probably" stronger than Beerus, as testament of its components improvement as fighters

If Beerus was surpassed by FT Vegetto or equal. There would be no need to use a more powerful fusion later to beat him then.

[ZombieVito]

Vegito was not debunked, actually the opposite happened, he was ratified when Gogeta Blue was clearly above Beerus' benchmark(Broly). If FT blue fusion was a match for Beerus, then after the ToP he should definitely be stronger than him. And he was seen stomping a Beerus-level character. In what way has all this been debunked?

Beerus >>>>> 10
Broly >>>>>> 10--to--10,1
FT blue fusion>>> 10--to- 10,1

ToP blue fusion >> 10,1--to--10,2 ??

Movie blue fusion >>> 10,3
Moro arc blue fusion >> 10,5 ??

If there's ever a rematch, Beerus will be presented as having been training or something, because his current level of power was already stated to have been at least reached by several characters whose level of power is now irrelevant (Broly was defeated, and Vegito Blue is much stronger than in the FT arc).

How can Vegetto be on par with Beerus when Zamasu was giving him a decent fight?

[Jack Bz]

Vegito was not debunked, actually the opposite happened, he was ratified when Gogeta Blue was clearly above Beerus' benchmark(Broly). If FT blue fusion was a match for Beerus, then after the ToP he should definitely be stronger than him. And he was seen stomping a Beerus-level character. In what way has all this been debunked?

Beerus >>>>> 10
Broly >>>>>> 10--to--10,1
FT blue fusion>>> 10--to- 10,1

ToP blue fusion >> 10,1--to--10,2 ??

Movie blue fusion >>> 10,3
Moro arc blue fusion >> 10,5 ??

If there's ever a rematch, Beerus will be presented as having been training or something, because his current level of power was already stated to have been at least reached by several characters whose level of power is now irrelevant (Broly was defeated, and Vegito Blue is much stronger than in the FT arc).

How can Vegetto be on par with Beerus when Zamasu was giving him a decent fight?

This discussion is about manga vegetto, where he completely dominated zamasu and led Shin to think that he might be above Beerus.

[Koitsukai]

"Maybe" with Vegetto was already debunked when Beerus moved up the fusion power scaling ladder with Broly. So "probably" doesn't mean auto true either.

I don't get what you mean.
Vegetto(Black Saga)=maybe stronger tha Beerus
Broly=probably stronger than Beerus
Gogeta(Movie)=stronger than Broly, which means he's VERY probably stronger than Beeru
Gogeta(Movie) is NO DOUBT^{unless one believes there is a substantial difference in power between Potara Fusion and Fusion Dance} stronger than Vegetto(Black Saga) because its components also got sensibly stronger

Gogeta(Movie)>Broly>Vegetto(Black)~>Beerus

I don't see how Beerus' estimated power would change. Hell if anything it makes sense and gives a sense of progression if the estimate is correct.
Goku&Vegeta's fusion fighter went from "maybe" stronger than Beerus to "very probably" stronger than Beerus, as testament of its components improvement as fighters

If Beerus was surpassed by FT Vegetto or equal. There would be no need to use a more powerful fusion later to beat him then.

But what does that even mean? that was the only fusion they had access to, or are you saying they should've gone back to their FT selves and fuse into a weaker fighter in order to prove Shin's statement?
Gogeta stomped the power level he had in FT arc, he owned that fight, simple as that. It's a pretty straightforward situation, I don't know why you are complicating things so much.

If you have any evidence Beerus has gotten stronger than in the last couple of arcs, please, be our guest, we are dying to get a look at that.

One more thing, if someone WILL BECOME something, then is not really a fact is it? not for now, at least. Not until it actually happens, right?

Vegito was not debunked, actually the opposite happened, he was ratified when Gogeta Blue was clearly above Beerus' benchmark(Broly). If FT blue fusion was a match for Beerus, then after the ToP he should definitely be stronger than him. And he was seen stomping a Beerus-level character. In what way has all this been debunked?

Beerus >>>>> 10
Broly >>>>>> 10--to--10,1
FT blue fusion>>> 10--to- 10,1

ToP blue fusion >> 10,1--to--10,2 ??

Movie blue fusion >>> 10,3
Moro arc blue fusion >> 10,5 ??

If there's ever a rematch, Beerus will be presented as having been training or something, because his current level of power was already stated to have been at least reached by several characters whose level of power is now irrelevant (Broly was defeated, and Vegito Blue is much stronger than in the FT arc).

How can Vegetto be on par with Beerus when Zamasu was giving him a decent fight?

That wasn't even a fight in the manga.

[Miracles]

I don't get what you mean.
Vegetto(Black Saga)=maybe stronger tha Beerus
Broly=probably stronger than Beerus
Gogeta(Movie)=stronger than Broly, which means he's VERY probably stronger than Beeru
Gogeta(Movie) is NO DOUBT^{unless one believes there is a substantial difference in power between Potara Fusion and Fusion Dance} stronger than Vegetto(Black Saga) because its components also got sensibly stronger

Gogeta(Movie)>Broly>Vegetto(Black)~>Beerus

I don't see how Beerus' estimated power would change. Hell if anything it makes sense and gives a sense of progression if the estimate is correct.
Goku&Vegeta's fusion fighter went from "maybe" stronger than Beerus to "very probably" stronger than Beerus, as testament of its components improvement as fighters

If Beerus was surpassed by FT Vegetto or equal. There would be no need to use a more powerful fusion later to beat him then.

But what does that even mean? that was the only fusion they had access to, or are you saying they should've gone back to their FT selves and fuse into a weaker fighter in order to prove Shin's statement?
Gogeta stomped the power level he had in FT arc, he owned that fight, simple as that. It's a pretty straightforward situation, I don't know why you are complicating things so much.

If you have any evidence Beerus has gotten stronger than in the last couple of arcs, please, be our guest, we are dying to get a look at that.

One more thing, if someone WILL BECOME something, then is not really a fact is it? not for now, at least. Not until it actually happens, right?

Will become is a definite fact that something is going to happen in the future. As for FT Vegetto, you are complicating it. Beerus went from a weaker fusion, possibly being stronger/equal in FT, to needing a stronger fusion to beat him later. That shows Beerus moved up the ladder.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Shin makes the statement in the manga where the power difference is extremely obvious, but I'd argue it'd also apply in the anime.

We see that Fusions are MASSIVELY powerful already, but the Broly movie helped establish by just how much: SSB-level base form MULTIPLIED BY SUPER SAIYAN BLUE.

Seeing as how it's a followup to both the anime AND manga in a sense, I think it's fair to say that it counts for both continuities.

Extrapolating from that, we can estimate that Future Trunks Arc-era Vegito likely functions on a similar kind of escalation (albeit lower due to Goku and Vegeta not being as strong as they were back then compared to the movie) given that Vegito and Gogeta are considered equal if performed under the exact same circumstances.

Not only that, but we also have Merged Zamasu powering up 2 separate times from a level that was somewhat above the anime's SSB at the time in order to match Vegito, and even then it was only his corrupted right half that was truly capable of matching that power level. Even bulking up only seemed to even out his power across his body at the cost of his speed, and even then Vegito was still even with the powered-up Merged Zamasu.

[Jack Bz]

As for FT Vegetto, you are complicating it. Beerus went from a weaker fusion, possibly being stronger/equal in FT, to needing a stronger fusion to beat him later. That shows Beerus moved up the ladder.

I can't even make sense of your logic here at all, I'm sorry.

This would only make sense to me if it was Gogeta who was compared to Beerus, rather than Broly, or if Gogeta and Broly were close in strength. That would show that even after getting stronger, a Goku/Vegeta fusion is still "probably stronger than Beerus", the same comparison made before with Vegito.

But no, that isn't the case. A few arcs later, Gogeta is comfortably above someone who is believed to be stronger than Beerus by Goku, to the point where he can't even be hit. That makes sense.

As it stands, FT Vegito and Broly are at a tier of power where characters speculate that they're probably above Beerus, and then Broly arc Gogeta is very comfortably above that power. There's nothing more to read into it than that. That doesn't show Beerus moving up the ladder at all, the original comparisons still apply.

What you're saying isn't much different than saying Roshi "needed" someone as strong as Jiren to defeat him. That's just not the case, that's just what happened to go down. The gap between Gogeta and Broly was wide.

[Koitsukai]

If Beerus was surpassed by FT Vegetto or equal. There would be no need to use a more powerful fusion later to beat him then.

But what does that even mean? that was the only fusion they had access to, or are you saying they should've gone back to their FT selves and fuse into a weaker fighter in order to prove Shin's statement?
Gogeta stomped the power level he had in FT arc, he owned that fight, simple as that. It's a pretty straightforward situation, I don't know why you are complicating things so much.

If you have any evidence Beerus has gotten stronger than in the last couple of arcs, please, be our guest, we are dying to get a look at that.

One more thing, if someone WILL BECOME something, then is not really a fact is it? not for now, at least. Not until it actually happens, right?

Will become is a definite fact that something is going to happen in the future. As for FT Vegetto, you are complicating it. Beerus went from a weaker fusion, possibly being stronger/equal in FT, to needing a stronger fusion to beat him later. That shows Beerus moved up the ladder.

How can something that has not happened be a DEFINITE FACT???

Wait a minute, are you implying Broly and Gogeta were evenly matched? because that's the only scenario I see where what you propose making any sense. Unless you think they could've chosen to be FT Vegito instead of Gogeta, or that you think dance fusion > potara.
You are saying that Beerus was as strong as Gogeta Blue in the movie, therefore he is stronger than FT Vegito, right?
Two questions then:
1) where is the evidence pointing at Beerus growing in power from FT arc to the movie?
2) did you watch the movie?

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I think he’s rooting that in the assumption that Goku got a good bit stronger in between battles, so all things being equal between a hypothetical Vegetto and Gogeta, the Gogeta that fought Broly would have to be stronger than the Vegetto that fought Zamasu. Ergo, if Beerus is still comparable to both, a retcon is afoot.

Personally I tend to reign in the power creep by acknowledging an improvement only when the story does, and not taking continuous gains for granted, but to be fair, the anime (especially in regards to the TOP, where everyone seems to improve exponentially from one minute to the next) does you absolutely no favors in that regard.