Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:31 am

Cipher wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:39 am
Where is everyone getting this idea from from that the Oracle Fish predicted a rematch between Goku and Beerus? He just said Goku and Vegeta would eventually become rivals for him.
A rematch is likely the easier scenario to picture that rivalry, since all the involved people will have a proper knowledge of each other limits. Though, it’s not necessarily a requirement. Someone might claim they reached it, even Beerus himself may admit. He already complimented Goku recently.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:44 am

The Undying wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:49 am
I'm still not convinced there'd be a rematch between them at any point, but if it does happen, I'm almost positive it would involve an improved version of Beerus fighting one of the two.
Yeah, this. Being a formidable rival also can imply Beerus getting his ass off the couch to better himself, actually by now I think it definitely means that. Like Messi and Cristiano, they are formidable rivals because they make each other be at their best all the time.
If that were not the case then Goku would be just another rival, like Quitela or Champa.

It'd be in tune with Goku's quality of changing people for the better, the change here would be to take Beerus from a lazy dude to a hard-working one.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:12 pm

Cipher wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:12 am
The same reason Freeza has apparently never trained but is also a martial-arts expert.

Or the androids, who were just random kids.
The Androids were more than likely given a ton of data on how to fight.

Frieza would be a strange one but there you could say the sheer difference in power made any fighting ability redundant at least on Namek.

But Moro is just a wizard whose never trained yet he can fight some of roughly the same level of power and hold his own in a battle of martial arts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:03 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:17 pm
I definitely think we have to remember to separate the anime and manga where appropriate. For example, Jiren's normal full-power is seen represented in the manga and anime well-enough, but then his limit-breaking power-up puts him on the same level as Ultra Instinct whereas Jiren's normal full-power hasn't accomplished in either medium.

So 7-3 Moro is definitely stronger than the manga's full-power Jiren and SSFP Broly, but he may or may not be stronger than the anime-exclusive Beyond Full-Power Jiren. Of course, by how much is in contention seeing as how these latest 3 beyond-GoD-level opponents are vaguely stronger than that level. I'd hazard a guess that they occupy the same general tier and that a battle between any given party won't really be significantly affected by the differences in power, much like how all the Gods of Destruction aren't that far off from one another overall despite there being some power differences.

The Ultra Instinct of the anime definitely seems to be similar to the Ultra Instinct of the manga, at least as far as the completed form goes. I'm also in the camp that there isn't any significant difference in Ultra Instinct between the 2 times it's appeared in the manga.
Speaking of the anime. Would you put Jiren above UI? He had the upper hand before the nakama and rage boosts

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:29 pm

I definitely don't put Jiren's Hidden Power as more than the completed Ultra Insttinct. Before Jiren got that quick succession of blows on Goku, he wasn't doing too hot. Honestly, it seemed to mostly be a case of Goku's Ultra Instinct simply not being enough to catch every single hit of Jiren's, and him not taking the hits he did take all that well due to his technically drained stamina.

They're both equal, with Hidden Power Jiren having more durability and overall raw force compared to better reflexes and speed from Ultra Instinct Goku. Ultimately, though, Goku's will was greater and he won out in the end. But they're essentially dead-even as far as how their respective battle powers and speeds balance out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:46 am

At this point, Goku should surpass Beerus now that he has mastered UI, as he done what Beerus couldn't do and Whis himself said Goku will be able to take on any enemy with UI.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:43 pm

So what do people think about Moro having enough power inside him that he'll detonate and take out a galaxy with him?

It's an impressive feat and shows how powerful the characters are but at the time I can't help feel like they should have said universe instead.

Even ignoring the anime where someone like Kefla was said to have the power to destroy a universe, the manga did make out Beerus and Champa to be universe destroyers and the Goku Beerus fist clash thing still happened.

So it seems a bit odd in a way that Moro, supposedly stronger than Beerus anyway, then with Merus' angel power running through him would only have power to destroy the galaxy when Beerus can destroy a universe.

Unless they just generate more power summoning it up or maybe it's just inconsistent or something.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:56 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:43 pm
So what do people think about Moro having enough power inside him that he'll detonate and take out a galaxy with him?

It's an impressive feat and shows how powerful the characters are but at the time I can't help feel like they should have said universe instead.

Even ignoring the anime where someone like Kefla was said to have the power to destroy a universe, the manga did make out Beerus and Champa to be universe destroyers and the Goku Beerus fist clash thing still happened.

So it seems a bit odd in a way that Moro, supposedly stronger than Beerus anyway, then with Merus' angel power running through him would only have power to destroy the galaxy when Beerus can destroy a universe.

Unless they just generate more power summoning it up or maybe it's just inconsistent or something.
I feel like there's a substantive difference between 'a single destruction event' being galaxy-destroying and 'a process in the middle of unfolding' being greater than that if it should continue.

Both the Goku-Beerus and Beerus-Champa situations were in the context of unfolding fights that had the potential to wreck the Universe; I think Beerus-Champa was clearer about what that kind of process looked like, as about half a dozen planets went in the melee in rapid succession. I don't think Moro just exploding is really like that; it's more like Cell saying he could destroy the Solar System with his Kamehameha; in that context, it seems the most logical next step up.

And it's also worth remembering that, in Dragon Ball Cosmology, a Galaxy is quarter of the Mortal Universe in any case, so proportionately it's rather more significant than it sounds.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:10 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:56 pm
And it's also worth remembering that, in Dragon Ball Cosmology, a Galaxy is quarter of the Mortal Universe in any case, so proportionately it's rather more significant than it sounds.
How is it? There's a considerable amount of them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Daisuki » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:41 pm

Guess it depends on how you read “galaxies” in the context of the Kaio, anime vs. manga vs. guidebooks, etc: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/gods-and-cosmos/galaxies/

I’m guessing they didn’t want to go with the end-all-be-all universe-level threat, and galaxy-level threat was just the next closest thing (regardless of how big a “galaxy” is in this context).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:05 pm

I was thinking something along the lines of not presenting it as a threat to the universe because that would force Beerus to intervene. This way, with just the galaxy at risk, he can keep up his non-interventionist position.

Also that a character just exploding doesn't necessarily mean that their whole potential would be released. That would be the bare minimum of damage Moro could do just by "disappearing", a whole galaxy does not seem little to me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by UI Peter » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:33 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:56 pm

And it's also worth remembering that, in Dragon Ball Cosmology, a Galaxy is quarter of the Mortal Universe in any case, so proportionately it's rather more significant than it sounds.
The "only 4 galaxies" myth has been debunked many years ago, and Super futher shows this by showing Super Shenron being larger than thousands of galaxies.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:13 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:43 pm
So what do people think about Moro having enough power inside him that he'll detonate and take out a galaxy with him?

It's an impressive feat and shows how powerful the characters are but at the time I can't help feel like they should have said universe instead.

Even ignoring the anime where someone like Kefla was said to have the power to destroy a universe, the manga did make out Beerus and Champa to be universe destroyers and the Goku Beerus fist clash thing still happened.

So it seems a bit odd in a way that Moro, supposedly stronger than Beerus anyway, then with Merus' angel power running through him would only have power to destroy the galaxy when Beerus can destroy a universe.

Unless they just generate more power summoning it up or maybe it's just inconsistent or something.
I agree. It doesn’t seem to make any sense. Whis definitely should have said Universe. Not galaxy.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:27 pm

Wouldn’t care too much about we know prior feats,Statements in both Anime and Manga take precedence
Probably just a brain fart on toyo part

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:25 am

It could be. It'd be particularly odd though because it was the same person after all who wrote the previous comments about the universe busting.

What's also particularly odd is how Super Saiyan God Goku and Beerus having a first clash can threaten the entire Universe but then Ultra Instinct Goku and Moro did the same thing in the latest chapter and was of no real consequence.

After all this time and all the forms the Goku and Beerus fight, power scaling aside, still comes across as the largest in scale.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:36 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:10 pm
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:56 pm
And it's also worth remembering that, in Dragon Ball Cosmology, a Galaxy is quarter of the Mortal Universe in any case, so proportionately it's rather more significant than it sounds.
How is it? There's a considerable amount of them.

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Why would you use anime material to address a manga statement?
UI Peter wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:33 pm
The "only 4 galaxies" myth has been debunked many years ago, and Super futher shows this by showing Super Shenron being larger than thousands of galaxies.
As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been an explicit statement or demonstration in the manga (Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Super) that contradicts the Official Guidebooks in saying that there are 4 (however the word 'Galaxy' may be defined there). Perhaps you could provide one?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:28 am

The manga also called the galaxies "Areas". And the japanese wording did felt vague, since it could be read in the singular or plural.

So, according to new information provided, it is possible to deduce that: there are many galaxies in the Universe, and that North Kaio presides over the Northern Galaxies.

Not a guaranteed deduction, but....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:46 am

Can someone explain to me how Moro is able to handle Merus' angelic power just because he merged with the planet? Planets are not tough in the DBverse, Saiyan arc Vegeta proved this, so why is it that one planet is somehow able to handle ANGELIC power? Shouldn't the planet just blow up from the sheer amount of energy it got from Moro?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:03 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:46 am
Can someone explain to me how Moro is able to handle Merus' angelic power just because he merged with the planet? Planets are not tough in the DBverse, Saiyan arc Vegeta proved this, so why is it that one planet is somehow able to handle ANGELIC power? Shouldn't the planet just blow up from the sheer amount of energy it got from Moro?
It's large and it's not flesh and blood? *shrug*

For what it's worth, Whis is still concerned about the possibility of his exploding, and Japanese text down the side of the final page in V-Jump says that Moro has turned himself into a giant bomb. (It might just mean if prodded, but at any rate, the possibility of the planet-body not doing its job is on the table.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JewyB » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:57 am

Maybe the Earth actually has the ability to handle that ki, but no ki control? I mean, we saw the difference from Vegeta learning slightly more ki control, the Earth isn't sentient and would have none, who knows?

But yeah i'm pretty sure this is more a stalling method than a solution and explosion is still on the table.

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