Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Grand Marshal 1
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:54 pm

So with all this in mind and one of my previous scales, I wanted to get your opinions on how this new version of Moro and this stronger MUI Goku stand in the greater picture.

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Top Omen 0.8
Moro arc Omen overall 1 or 1.1
Spirit Control Vegeta comparable to Omen (depends on how you view his feats and statements)
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.5
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2
Merus Moro 1.8 (he never ended up using Merus' full power anyway)
Top MUI 1.4
Moro arc MUI 1.9
Merus maybe a solid 2

I want to believe that Top MUI is a bit below Blue Gogeta from Broly, and then the same happens with Gogeta Blue and Moro arc MUI.

I believe top MUI Goku would still be able to defeat 7-Moro-3, just not as easily as Jiren, soi don't think Omen Goku trashes Top MUI whatsoever.

What do you guys think?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:21 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:54 pm
So with all this in mind and one of my previous scales, I wanted to get your opinions on how this new version of Moro and this stronger MUI Goku stand in the greater picture.

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Top Omen 0.8
Moro arc Omen overall 1 or 1.1
Spirit Control Vegeta comparable to Omen (depends on how you view his feats and statements)
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.5
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2
Merus Moro 1.8 (he never ended up using Merus' full power anyway)
Top MUI 1.4
Moro arc MUI 1.9
Merus maybe a solid 2

I want to believe that Top MUI is a bit below Blue Gogeta from Broly, and then the same happens with Gogeta Blue and Moro arc MUI.

I believe top MUI Goku would still be able to defeat 7-Moro-3, just not as easily as Jiren, soi don't think Omen Goku trashes Top MUI whatsoever.

What do you guys think?
I mostly agree except on these:

-ToP Omen and current Omen I'd put a little lower, just so that SSBE Vegeta remains below Beerus' threshold, I'd say 0.9 for current Omen. ToP Omen can keep it's 0.8. I thought manga ToP UI was a plain 1, but seeing the boost Goku got recently (regardless of having a well-trained body for it) perhaps during the ToP it was a glimpse of what was to come, although 1.4 sounds a bit too much for me, maybe 1.25?

-Moro7-3 I think should be 1.3 if Jiren is 1.2. Goku's statement puts him safely above everyone before him IMO.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:24 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:21 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:54 pm
So with all this in mind and one of my previous scales, I wanted to get your opinions on how this new version of Moro and this stronger MUI Goku stand in the greater picture.

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Top Omen 0.8
Moro arc Omen overall 1 or 1.1
Spirit Control Vegeta comparable to Omen (depends on how you view his feats and statements)
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.5
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2
Merus Moro 1.8 (he never ended up using Merus' full power anyway)
Top MUI 1.4
Moro arc MUI 1.9
Merus maybe a solid 2

I want to believe that Top MUI is a bit below Blue Gogeta from Broly, and then the same happens with Gogeta Blue and Moro arc MUI.

I believe top MUI Goku would still be able to defeat 7-Moro-3, just not as easily as Jiren, soi don't think Omen Goku trashes Top MUI whatsoever.

What do you guys think?
I mostly agree except on these:

-ToP Omen and current Omen I'd put a little lower, just so that SSBE Vegeta remains below Beerus' threshold, I'd say 0.9 for current Omen. ToP Omen can keep it's 0.8. I thought manga ToP UI was a plain 1, but seeing the boost Goku got recently (regardless of having a well-trained body for it) perhaps during the ToP it was a glimpse of what was to come, although 1.4 sounds a bit too much for me, maybe 1.25?

-Moro7-3 I think should be 1.3 if Jiren is 1.2. Goku's statement puts him safely above everyone before him IMO.
Yeah def. Depends on where someone places Prime Moro. Below or above Beerus?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:36 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:24 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:21 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:54 pm
So with all this in mind and one of my previous scales, I wanted to get your opinions on how this new version of Moro and this stronger MUI Goku stand in the greater picture.

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Top Omen 0.8
Moro arc Omen overall 1 or 1.1
Spirit Control Vegeta comparable to Omen (depends on how you view his feats and statements)
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.5
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2
Merus Moro 1.8 (he never ended up using Merus' full power anyway)
Top MUI 1.4
Moro arc MUI 1.9
Merus maybe a solid 2

I want to believe that Top MUI is a bit below Blue Gogeta from Broly, and then the same happens with Gogeta Blue and Moro arc MUI.

I believe top MUI Goku would still be able to defeat 7-Moro-3, just not as easily as Jiren, soi don't think Omen Goku trashes Top MUI whatsoever.

What do you guys think?
I mostly agree except on these:

-ToP Omen and current Omen I'd put a little lower, just so that SSBE Vegeta remains below Beerus' threshold, I'd say 0.9 for current Omen. ToP Omen can keep it's 0.8. I thought manga ToP UI was a plain 1, but seeing the boost Goku got recently (regardless of having a well-trained body for it) perhaps during the ToP it was a glimpse of what was to come, although 1.4 sounds a bit too much for me, maybe 1.25?

-Moro7-3 I think should be 1.3 if Jiren is 1.2. Goku's statement puts him safely above everyone before him IMO.
Yeah def. Depends on where someone places Prime Moro. Below or above Beerus?
Mmm... well, Moro with crappy little 7-3 got strong enough to be beyond Broly, Jiren and of course Beerus, without a doubt in Goku's head, so I guess Prime Moro was in that grey-ish category Broly and Vegito are: the probably stronger than him. At least equal to Beerus I'd say for Prime Moro.
I mean, he can't be weaker than Beerus but surpass people considered maybe stronger than him with just 7-3. That little android wasn't that strong, he shouldn't provide a great boost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:39 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:25 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:12 am
Moro 73 was NOT stated to be the “strongest”.. That’s your headcanon, right there. He was stated to be the “toughest”. Big difference. And characters say stuff like this all the time to hype someone up. It really doesn’t mean much. Especially since we know that it usually always gets contradicted in future episodes/chapters/movies.

The only thing we know for certain is that Moro Merus is stronger than Jiren.

(As he fought on par with a much superior MUI Goku than the one that Jiren fought on par with during the ToP.)

Broly has been compared to Beerus because he is Fusion level. Equal to the old SSB Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc, and forcing a current (post ToP) Gogeta to go SSJ Blue against him... (Who by the way is already stronger than SSJ Blue Goku in his mere BASE Form.)

Are you arguing that MUI is a bigger boost over SSJ Blue then SSJ Blue is over Base???
To be completely fair, "toughest" is only the official translation, fan translators had also translated it as "strongest" before the Viz release. So it's entirely plausible Moro is indeed the strongest opponent Goku has faced yet. We'd need the original japanese words used for an accurate assessment.

It certainly does seem to be the case now that Beerus has been surpassed.
That’s 100% denial on your part. You know this aswell as I do that “toughest” is the correct translation and the word being used here by Goku. Not strongest. At least 3 highly respectable translators have confirmed that Goku used the word “toughest” to refer to Moro 73. Accept it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:46 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:36 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:24 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:21 pm


I mostly agree except on these:

-ToP Omen and current Omen I'd put a little lower, just so that SSBE Vegeta remains below Beerus' threshold, I'd say 0.9 for current Omen. ToP Omen can keep it's 0.8. I thought manga ToP UI was a plain 1, but seeing the boost Goku got recently (regardless of having a well-trained body for it) perhaps during the ToP it was a glimpse of what was to come, although 1.4 sounds a bit too much for me, maybe 1.25?

-Moro7-3 I think should be 1.3 if Jiren is 1.2. Goku's statement puts him safely above everyone before him IMO.
Yeah def. Depends on where someone places Prime Moro. Below or above Beerus?
Mmm... well, Moro with crappy little 7-3 got strong enough to be beyond Broly, Jiren and of course Beerus, without a doubt in Goku's head, so I guess Prime Moro was in that grey-ish category Broly and Vegito are: the probably stronger than him. At least equal to Beerus I'd say for Prime Moro.
I mean, he can't be weaker than Beerus but surpass people considered maybe stronger than him with just 7-3. That little android wasn't that strong, he shouldn't provide a great boost.
You guys are all going to be disappointed to find out that Beerus is still going to be miles ahead of Goku once this Arc ends.. Please don’t do this. Don’t be so certain. You’re all setting yourself up for dissapointment.

There’s a reason Goku isn’t stronger than Beerus yet..

Their rematch hasn’t happened yet.

And Beerus is equal to FT Arc SSB Vegito, who’s BASE form is already superior than Goku’s “completed” SSJ Blue form (based on feats). He’s also equal to Broly, who forced a POST tournament of power Gogeta to go SSJ Blue!

(That Gogeta’s Base form is ALSO already stronger than Goku and Vegeta’s SSJ Blue forms!) Based on feats again.

Fusion >>> UI.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:00 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:39 pm
That’s 100% denial on your part. You know this aswell as I do that “toughest” is the correct translation and the word being used here by Goku. Not strongest. At least 3 highly respectable translators have confirmed that Goku used the word “toughest” to refer to Moro 73. Accept it.
If you can provide sources to that statement I'll accept it. I was even saying I'd like to see the original wording in japanese. But you don't need to be so derisive about the topic. I was seeing it translated as "strongest" before the official translation came out, so no, it's not "100% denial".

Even then, it's also within reason that statement could also be referring to outright strength. Broly was certainly tough, he took on full power blows from SSB Gogeta. I'd argue anyone "tougher" than that is stronger as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:46 pm

I heard this opinion a while back but I think it's a great idea. Hit should have been the central antagonist of Super/the T.O.P and someone else should have been the villain of the U6 tournament. I wouldn't want Jiren because he's terrible but he could work.
1. Hit's got a great design
2. Hit has room for a more interesting backstory as he already has one and if given more focus it could grow and be better
3. most importantly, his time-stop ability would be a great foil to Goku's power which provides a real need for UI. I think an ability that enables the user to fight on instinct would be a better counter to Hit's time stop ability than simply "getting better". Jiren was simply really strong and really fast. Nothing interesting. With Hit vs MUI Goku, it would be two amazing techniques countering one another in an intense way. Far more interesting if you ask me.

So basically Hit needed a serious power boost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:04 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:46 pm
You guys are all going to be disappointed to find out that Beerus is still going to be miles ahead of Goku once this Arc ends..
Got anything to back up this statement beside "Because i said so"?
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:46 pm
Their rematch hasn’t happened yet.
Nether has Goku's rematch with Jackie Chun, or Piccolo, or Hit outside of anime filler,
The Oracle Fish's "prophecy" hasn't been brought up or mentioned again since the BoG arc, and nether Goku or Beerus have shown interest in fighting each other again since the U6 arc.

It's time except that like every other "promised rematch with Goku, The Beerus vs Goku rematch will never happen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:28 am

shadd21 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:04 pm

The Oracle Fish's "prophecy" hasn't been brought up or mentioned again since the BoG arc
That's actually not true, it comes up again in the ToP arc when Vegeta is training with Whis.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:05 am

I think it's impossible for Fusion to be greater than MUI since MUI is both the main form of Super, the end-all form, and it was like just introduced. We have not really had a case where something new is introduced only to be dwarfed by a previous power-up. Maybe Namekian Fusion and SSJ but not really. Not to mention Toriyama never planned on having Fusion return.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:40 am

shadd21 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:04 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:46 pm
You guys are all going to be disappointed to find out that Beerus is still going to be miles ahead of Goku once this Arc ends..
Got anything to back up this statement beside "Because i said so"?
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:46 pm
Their rematch hasn’t happened yet.
Nether has Goku's rematch with Jackie Chun, or Piccolo, or Hit outside of anime filler,
The Oracle Fish's "prophecy" hasn't been brought up or mentioned again since the BoG arc, and nether Goku or Beerus have shown interest in fighting each other again since the U6 arc.

It's time except that like every other "promised rematch with Goku, The Beerus vs Goku rematch will never happen.
WRONG.

Right before the ToP, this happened.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:22 am

I don’t think you can say that every promise of rematch against Goku didn’t happen. He fought Vegeta, Evil Boo and Hit a second time. In this particular case, it is not only about Goku, but Vegeta as well. So, the story will probably reach a point that those 3 will recognize themselves as rivals, not necessarily through a rematch.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:25 am

I still find the idea that "rival" must mean "major rematch" pretty dubious, especially given DB's track record. They've already been motivating (and surprising) Beerus with their progress. That's rivals!

(That said, I was kind of hoping Moro would absorb Beerus the other month both because directly harming Beerus is about the only shocking thing a new villain can do at this point and it would have been a hilariously indirect way to pay off on the "When will they beat Beerus?" throughline.

Practically, though, Beerus would have been a less useful absorption/copy template for Moro than Merus, and I think how easy it is to acknowledge that, in addition to Goku fighting said Merus-Moro off, also kind of speaks to this all being water under the bridge, in typical DB fashion. You could even say the Oracle Fish's prediction above is paid off directly in the very arc it appears in, with the added twist that UI itself still can't win the day whereas teamwork and non-lateral thinking do.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:31 pm

Can we really tell how Merus and Beerus compare to each other though? There is precedence to Whis being stronger than Beerus and Merus can use Ultra Instinct, which Beerus hasn’t mastered (as far as we know), but should we consider this matter settled? For me, at least, it’s a fair assumption that Whis is stronger than Merus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:49 pm

I think as of now we can safely assume that anyone using UI at will and without drawbacks(Whis, Goku, Merus) is above anyone without the same level of technique regardless of how strong they might be(Beerus, Moro-Merus, ToP Goku).

The full extent of the technique is just too powerful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:39 pm

How would you lot rank all these

Beerus
Belmod
Jiren at 100%
God of Destruction Toppo
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Fused Zamasu Half Corrupted

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:00 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:39 pm
How would you lot rank all these

Beerus
Belmod
Jiren at 100%
God of Destruction Toppo
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Fused Zamasu Half Corrupted
This is all from the anime:

Jiren at 100% > Beerus/Belmod> Omen Goku > SSB Evolved Vegeta > Blue Vegito/Fused Zamasu > GoD Toppo > SS2 Kefla.

Beerus/Belmod there is no way to know who is stronger, although it is mentioned that Belmod beat Beerus in an arm-wrestling match, which means he has superior brute strength.

As for Fused Zamasu and Vegito, using the former as basis, they are above Kefla and Toppo. This is for 3 reasons:

- Gowasu notes that when the two merged, their power expanded to no limit, in the previous episode Black even said his power had expanded beyond his own comprehension, and throughout the arc it is shown how Black growth potential is virtually limitless. I believe some Toei producers literally called Fused Zamasu an "hax character";
- Shin cannot comprehend the very existence of Fused Zamasu, he states that his mere standing as a God is beyond their understanding.
- Vegeta mentions that he has never felt any God let off such amazing energy.

And keep in mind that BOTH Vegeta and Shin saw and felt Beerus power before, and Vegeta even fought him directly in the BoG movie. Finally, all of this is said about HALO Fused Zamasu, not even the Corrupted form, which is obviously much stronger.

Meanwhile Toppo is not even a fully-fledged God of Destruction, his control over Destruction powers is flawed, and Kefla needed a cheap shot to beat Goku (Zamasu and Vegito would not need that, they could literally oneshot).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:21 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:00 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:39 pm
How would you lot rank all these

Beerus
Belmod
Jiren at 100%
God of Destruction Toppo
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Fused Zamasu Half Corrupted
This is all from the anime:

Jiren at 100% > Beerus/Belmod> Omen Goku > SSB Evolved Vegeta > Blue Vegito/Fused Zamasu > GoD Toppo > SS2 Kefla.

Beerus/Belmod there is no way to know who is stronger, although it is mentioned that Belmod beat Beerus in an arm-wrestling match, which means he has superior brute strength.

As for Fused Zamasu and Vegito, using the former as basis, they are above Kefla and Toppo. This is for 3 reasons:

- Gowasu notes that when the two merged, their power expanded to no limit, in the previous episode Black even said his power had expanded beyond his own comprehension, and throughout the arc it is shown how Black growth potential is virtually limitless. I believe some Toei producers literally called Fused Zamasu an "hax character";
- Shin cannot comprehend the very existence of Fused Zamasu, he states that his mere standing as a God is beyond their understanding.
- Vegeta mentions that he has never felt any God let off such amazing energy.

And keep in mind that BOTH Vegeta and Shin saw and felt Beerus power before, and Vegeta even fought him directly in the BoG movie. Finally, all of this is said about HALO Fused Zamasu, not even the Corrupted form, which is obviously much stronger.

Meanwhile Toppo is not even a fully-fledged God of Destruction, his control over Destruction powers is flawed, and Kefla needed a cheap shot to beat Goku (Zamasu and Vegito would not need that, they could literally oneshot).
This is a decent ranking but I think there are some issues.

Jiren 100%>Beerus/Belmod>Omen Goku>Kefla>Vegito Blue/Zamasu>Vegeta Blue Evolved>GOD Toppo

Kefla is made way stronger than she had any right to be. Her power rivaled Omen Goku and delivered a kick comparable to an SSBKK20 Spirit bomb which is probably stronger than SSB Vegito. Vegeta and Toppo are way closer than what you presented them to be and I highly doubt either of them were above Merged Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:07 pm

I'd have said Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Fused Zamasu were above Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Ultra Instinct Omen Goku the first time he used it.

Based on the fact that Super Saiyan 2 Kale was weaker than but could hold her own against Super Saiyan God Goku then I'd wager that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be weaker but wouldn't outright embarrass herself against a hypothetical Super Saiyan God Vegito.

And Fused Zamasu was able to hold his own against Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.

I'd also say Fused Zamasu would be weaker than a God of Destruction like Beerus and Belmod seeing as after him they made a big deal about an opponent stronger than one which wouldn't have the required impact if he already was.

So this I'd say for sure

Jiren 100% ~ Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Belmod
Fused Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla

Don't know how I'd fit in the others. I don't know if I'd say Toppo was as strong as Kefla being that he was beaten by Vegeta and I don't think at any point he would have reached the level of Ultra Instinct Omen like Kefla was said to be.

He could be but I just don't think Vegeta and Toppo were at the level of Goku and Kefla.

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