Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:45 pm

I think that Earth Moro couldn’t probably manage the power he was absorbing due to his natural limits plus Vegeta was deploying some of his energy, so he was more or less compensating his lack of control by weakening Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:25 pm

I know the conversation has kind of moved on and I'm late to the review of the chapter. I just want to clear up this misconception where Goku referring to Moro as the toughest does not equate to strongest. This belief only holds true if you take the word toughest out of context. Isolating that very word from the surrounding dialogue allows anyone to bend it's meaning to their reality. It's very obvious that Goku used toughest interchangeably with strength while addressing Moro.

Goku starts his statement by addressing Moro's"current strength." Right now, Goku just laid out the subject of his conversation. It's about Moro's "strength!" Goku goes even further, asking Moro has he ever trained. Moro states he has not. Goku expresses his disappointment, stating that if Moro trained, he might be "stronger" than his current power that he obtained through eating planets and souls. Again, we see the common theme here, where the subject/topic is Goku addressing Moro's overall power. Finally, in that very image, Moro exclaims that training is for the weak! Goku says that's a shame, because he never came across "anyone as tough as you." So what do we see here? In context, tough is in regards to Moro's "current strength." This is even more evident since Goku would love to fight a trained Moro "again." Who would possibly be stronger than this soul eating version, who is the toughest he has fought.

The text is clear, when Goku says Moro is tougher than anyone he has faced, it is referring to overall ability.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:52 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:25 pm
I know the conversation has kind of moved on and I'm late to the review of the chapter. I just want to clear up this misconception where Goku referring to Moro as the toughest does not equate to strongest. This belief only holds true if you take the word toughest out of context. Isolating that very word from the surrounding dialogue allows anyone to bend it's meaning to their reality. It's very obvious that Goku used toughest interchangeably with strength while addressing Moro.

Goku starts his statement by addressing Moro's"current strength." Right now, Goku just laid out the subject of his conversation. It's about Moro's "strength!" Goku goes even further, asking Moro has he ever trained. Moro states he has not. Goku expresses his disappointment, stating that if Moro trained, he might be "stronger" than his current power that he obtained through eating planets and souls. Again, we see the common theme here, where the subject/topic is Goku addressing Moro's overall power. Finally, in that very image, Moro exclaims that training is for the weak! Goku says that's a shame, because he never came across "anyone as tough as you." So what do we see here? In context, tough is in regards to Moro's "strength." This is even more evident since Goku would love to fight a trained Moro "again."

The text is clear, when Goku says Moro is tougher than anyone he has faced, it is referring to overall ability.
Not to mention Moro got his left arm destroyed twice, by SSB Goku and by lava, so even his performance goes against the sentence being about his durability. Jiren and Broly never lost a limb. Twice.

Also... Old Moro ate 7-3(Prime Moro), that is the Omen-ish level Moro + the Moro they fought on Namek(SSG wasn't enough) + 73. Him being the strongest shouldn't come up as a surprise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:43 am

Miracles wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:25 pm
The text is clear, when Goku says Moro is tougher than anyone he has faced, it is referring to overall ability.
I honestly had no idea it was up for debate until I caught up on the thread.

Enhanced durability (relative to other attributes) tends to be framed as a unique ability or gimmick, but Moro wasn't implied to have anything like that. Given the surrounding context, the dialogue would almost certainly refer to his strength/power. I'm sure the Japanese text is even more direct.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:32 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:45 pm
I think that Earth Moro couldn’t probably manage the power he was absorbing due to his natural limits plus Vegeta was deploying some of his energy, so he was more or less compensating his lack of control by weakening Goku.
That's a fair point. As he was growing further from taking in more energy and Vegeta stopped that from happening so must have cancelled it out.

Though he did stop by the time Moro also stole Super Saiyan Blue Goku's power. Though then it didn't grow so maybe that's an inconsistency.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:46 pm

/tʌf/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: tough; comparative adjective: tougher; superlative adjective: toughest

1.
(of a substance or object) strong enough to withstand adverse conditions or rough handling.

strong
/strɒŋ/

adjective: strong; comparative adjective: stronger; superlative adjective: strongest

1.
having the power to move heavy weights or perform other physically demanding tasks.

Tough and Strong are not the same

Let's go further, Goku address Moro toughness beforehand

Image

And even 18 made comments on it

Image

In DBS chapter 65, they separate tough from power

UI get sturdier

Image

Moro body getting Tougher

Image

Goku body can only withstand this power when it's honed

Image

It's clear as day, tough isn't the same as power here[/spoiler]

Evidence is clear as day, DBS isn't referring tough as strong, if they wanted to say strong, they would say it

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:59 pm

Let's also address this "it's clear that the concept is strength"

Image

Goku says that if he didn't steal energy and trained, he might be stronger, Goku has no problem using the word STRONG, not tougher, STRONGER.

/tʌf/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: tough; comparative adjective: tougher; superlative adjective: toughest

1.
(of a substance or object) strong enough to withstand adverse conditions or rough handling.

strong
/strɒŋ/

adjective: strong; comparative adjective: stronger; superlative adjective: strongest

1.
having the power to move heavy weights or perform other physically demanding tasks.

Going further, Moro without absorbing people energy according to Vegeta is trash

Image

So the idea that power = tough fails badly as the meaning of tough doesn't relate to what Goku is asking of Moro.

So what Goku is saying Moro can get stronger if he didn't cheat and relied on his own strength, and when Moro denied, Goku is upset he was the toughest person to deal with (As Goku trained for literally 6 months to deal with him and lost many times to him) cause of his abilities, so Goku is wondering that if Moro actually relied on his power, he MIGHT (as Goku says on top) end up stronger.

Why would Goku be praising Moro for his current strength when he just lectured Moro that he shouldn't rely on other people powers :lol: seriously people, their is a reason why the word tough was used

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:03 am

The canonical timeline is against your out of context singular meaning of tough.
Chapter: 367 (DBZ 173), P8.5
Goku: “Piccolo has now become so much of a master that it’s unbelievable…”

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P1.2
No.17: “You’ve got magnificent power for someone who’s not an android. Seems you really aren’t Piccolo Daimao…”


Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P8.3
No.18: “He really is tough. He’s on par with No.17.”
Just one example out of many that uses tough interchangeably with strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:58 am

all your examples are based on English translation, thus irrelevant for this specific kind of discussion.

we'd need to know the original wording used to be able to make proper comparisons

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:46 am

I think this is just a case of someone who is trying to complicate an easy to understand observation. Moro is tough, but could be tougher if he trained. Change the word tough for strong in any place and the meaning is the same. But it seems this community isn’t satisfied until a literal translation comes in.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:07 pm

I highly doubt Goku calls him the toughest based only on his endurance when Moro literally lost an arm twice in the last half hour. And one time being against Goku using just SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:58 am
all your examples are based on English translation, thus irrelevant for this specific kind of discussion.

we'd need to know the original wording used to be able to make proper comparisons
Doesn't matter if the word tough is being used for resiliency or strength. The subject/context is clear. It's about Moro's strength being tougher than anyone's. This is why Goku wanted Moro to train in order to fight again because he could be stronger than his current level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:03 am
The canonical timeline is against your out of context singular meaning of tough.
Chapter: 367 (DBZ 173), P8.5
Goku: “Piccolo has now become so much of a master that it’s unbelievable…”

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P1.2
No.17: “You’ve got magnificent power for someone who’s not an android. Seems you really aren’t Piccolo Daimao…”


Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P8.3
No.18: “He really is tough. He’s on par with No.17.”
Just one example out of many that uses tough interchangeably with strength.
Image

Scan says strong, not tough
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:58 am
all your examples are based on English translation, thus irrelevant for this specific kind of discussion.

we'd need to know the original wording used to be able to make proper comparisons
Doesn't matter if the word tough is being used for resiliency or strength. The subject/context is clear. It's about Moro's strength being tougher than anyone's. This is why Goku wanted Moro to train in order to fight again because he could be stronger than his current level.
Moro strength being tougher then anyone legit makes no sense at all lol if it said stronger then anyone then that's fine, but tougher doesn't fit at all. The context is that Moro shouldn't rely on other peoples power, yet by your logic, Goku is contradicting himself causing he is praising Moro power despite not being his own.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:37 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:03 am
The canonical timeline is against your out of context singular meaning of tough.
Chapter: 367 (DBZ 173), P8.5
Goku: “Piccolo has now become so much of a master that it’s unbelievable…”

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P1.2
No.17: “You’ve got magnificent power for someone who’s not an android. Seems you really aren’t Piccolo Daimao…”


Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P8.3
No.18: “He really is tough. He’s on par with No.17.”
Just one example out of many that uses tough interchangeably with strength.
Image

Scan says strong, not tough
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:58 am
all your examples are based on English translation, thus irrelevant for this specific kind of discussion.

we'd need to know the original wording used to be able to make proper comparisons
Doesn't matter if the word tough is being used for resiliency or strength. The subject/context is clear. It's about Moro's strength being tougher than anyone's. This is why Goku wanted Moro to train in order to fight again because he could be stronger than his current level.
Moro strength being tougher then anyone legit makes no sense at all lol if it said stronger then anyone then that's fine, but tougher doesn't fit at all. The context is that Moro shouldn't rely on other peoples power, yet by your logic, Goku is contradicting himself causing he is praising Moro power despite not being his own.
The context/topic is about Moro's current strength. It isn't about any singular attribute. Goku said despite Moro not training he has not fought anyone as tough as Moro. That means in combat since he wanted to spar with him again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:42 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:37 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:03 am
The canonical timeline is against your out of context singular meaning of tough.



Just one example out of many that uses tough interchangeably with strength.
Image

Scan says strong, not tough
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 pm


Doesn't matter if the word tough is being used for resiliency or strength. The subject/context is clear. It's about Moro's strength being tougher than anyone's. This is why Goku wanted Moro to train in order to fight again because he could be stronger than his current level.
Moro strength being tougher then anyone legit makes no sense at all lol if it said stronger then anyone then that's fine, but tougher doesn't fit at all. The context is that Moro shouldn't rely on other peoples power, yet by your logic, Goku is contradicting himself causing he is praising Moro power despite not being his own.
The context/topic is about Moro's current strength. It isn't about any singular attribute. Goku said despite Moro not training he has not fought anyone as tough as Moro. That means in combat since he wanted to spar with him again.
Wrong, your connections fails cause the word tough was used, not strong. Going further, the same chapter already separates tough from power with Moro, Whis and Goku statement. If they wanted to say Moro was the strongest, they simply will just say it

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:58 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:42 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:37 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm


Image

Scan says strong, not tough



Moro strength being tougher then anyone legit makes no sense at all lol if it said stronger then anyone then that's fine, but tougher doesn't fit at all. The context is that Moro shouldn't rely on other peoples power, yet by your logic, Goku is contradicting himself causing he is praising Moro power despite not being his own.
The context/topic is about Moro's current strength. It isn't about any singular attribute. Goku said despite Moro not training he has not fought anyone as tough as Moro. That means in combat since he wanted to spar with him again.
Wrong, your connections fails cause the word tough was used, not strong. Going further, the same chapter already separates tough from power with Moro, Whis and Goku statement. If they wanted to say Moro was the strongest, they simply will just say it
Tough wasn't used singularly, it described Moro's strength as beyond anyone Goku has fought.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Devilman21/ » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:12 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:03 am
The canonical timeline is against your out of context singular meaning of tough.
Chapter: 367 (DBZ 173), P8.5
Goku: “Piccolo has now become so much of a master that it’s unbelievable…”

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P1.2
No.17: “You’ve got magnificent power for someone who’s not an android. Seems you really aren’t Piccolo Daimao…”


Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P8.3
No.18: “He really is tough. He’s on par with No.17.”
Just one example out of many that uses tough interchangeably with strength.
Image

Scan says strong, not tough
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:58 am
all your examples are based on English translation, thus irrelevant for this specific kind of discussion.

we'd need to know the original wording used to be able to make proper comparisons
Doesn't matter if the word tough is being used for resiliency or strength. The subject/context is clear. It's about Moro's strength being tougher than anyone's. This is why Goku wanted Moro to train in order to fight again because he could be stronger than his current level.
Moro strength being tougher then anyone legit makes no sense at all lol if it said stronger then anyone then that's fine, but tougher doesn't fit at all. The context is that Moro shouldn't rely on other peoples power, yet by your logic, Goku is contradicting himself causing he is praising Moro power despite not being his own.

I think you are missing the point of what Goku is trying to say. Moro was one of the strongest opponents Goku has ever faced and he could've been even stronger if he would've actually trained instead of stealing power from others. Goku isn't praising Moro for absorbing the power of others, he's trying to get Moro to see that he didn't need too. Goku is lamenting at the fact that Moro, much like Freeza, has such amazing potential & he's sad to see such potential go to waste.

Look we all know what Goku meant. Honestly it seems to me that the "toughest doesn't = strongest" crowd is just jumping through hoops to either avoid accepting that Moro is strongest enemy Goku & co have fought. He wasn't talking about how durable he was or his "skin of steel". Even if he was that doesn't mean his durability is completely divorced from power. This is Dragon ball. We know exactly what it means when a character says an enemy is the toughest opponent yet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:50 pm

Dragon Ball strength debates are always a fun ride but "tough ≠ strong" has managed to surprise me :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:32 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm
Scan says strong, not tough
Are you familiar with this thread? This is just an example of the word tough being used interchangeably with strong. Have a good read.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:09 am

It's pretty obvious that Moro is stronger than Broly

Broly isn't gonna be attached at the hip of Beerus forever. That "probably stronger" line leaves a smidge of ambiguity allowing them to move Beerus up a level later on if need be. A simple "you're stronger than a I thought" and it's over

It'll be interesting to see how Toei handles this (if the anime ever comes back). Unlike the manga, the anime hyped up UI to crazy levels with statements such as "it's a realm of power the Hakaishin can't reach". Ditto for Jiren

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