Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:03 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:09 am
It's pretty obvious that Moro is stronger than Broly

Broly isn't gonna be attached at the hip of Beerus forever. That "probably stronger" line leaves a smidge of ambiguity allowing them to move Beerus up a level later on if need be. A simple "you're stronger than a I thought" and it's over

It'll be interesting to see how Toei handles this (if the anime ever comes back). Unlike the manga, the anime hyped up UI to crazy levels with statements such as "it's a realm of power the Hakaishin can't reach". Ditto for Jiren
Or all the Gods being freaked out just by the mere sight of Omen in ep. 110. The power-scaling in the Moro arc will definitely be different.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:25 am

To be fair, it was said Ultra Instinct was a realm the gods could not easily attain. Key word is easily. It’s still under the level of possibility.

I see it more or less like when Vegeta is impressed by Kid Trunks being able to become Super Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:46 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:32 am
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm
Scan says strong, not tough
Are you familiar with this thread? This is just an example of the word tough being used interchangeably with strong. Have a good read.
Oh, good finding! this pretty much settles this absurd debate.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm

It’s pretty obvious that Moro Merus is weaker than Beerus, Broly, or Vegito Blue.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:06 pm

Devilman21/ wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:12 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:03 am
The canonical timeline is against your out of context singular meaning of tough.



Just one example out of many that uses tough interchangeably with strength.
Image

Scan says strong, not tough
Miracles wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 pm


Doesn't matter if the word tough is being used for resiliency or strength. The subject/context is clear. It's about Moro's strength being tougher than anyone's. This is why Goku wanted Moro to train in order to fight again because he could be stronger than his current level.
Moro strength being tougher then anyone legit makes no sense at all lol if it said stronger then anyone then that's fine, but tougher doesn't fit at all. The context is that Moro shouldn't rely on other peoples power, yet by your logic, Goku is contradicting himself causing he is praising Moro power despite not being his own.

I think you are missing the point of what Goku is trying to say. Moro was one of the strongest opponents Goku has ever faced and he could've been even stronger if he would've actually trained instead of stealing power from others. Goku isn't praising Moro for absorbing the power of others, he's trying to get Moro to see that he didn't need too. Goku is lamenting at the fact that Moro, much like Freeza, has such amazing potential & he's sad to see such potential go to waste.

Look we all know what Goku meant. Honestly it seems to me that the "toughest doesn't = strongest" crowd is just jumping through hoops to either avoid accepting that Moro is strongest enemy Goku & co have fought. He wasn't talking about how durable he was or his "skin of steel". Even if he was that doesn't mean his durability is completely divorced from power. This is Dragon ball. We know exactly what it means when a character says an enemy is the toughest opponent yet.
False. Tougher objectively means something different from stronger. It is just your own personal assumption that it means the same thing. There is no evidence that proves that Moro 73 (or any Moro!) for that matter, is stronger than Broly or Beerus are..
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:02 pm

Well, until further notice, that’s exactly what Goku is implying. Toughness is pretty much the most obvious aspect to gauge how strong someone is. Check how Kame Sennin describes Goku’s toughness in the og era.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:53 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm
It’s pretty obvious that Moro Merus is weaker than Beerus, Broly, or Vegito Blue.
That's not even, possible unless you assume that Jiren is an absolute ant compared to those characters, and that Goku, in the context of talking about how Moro acquired his power, how he SHOULD have acquired his power, and how his power is a waste, that he for some reason wasn't referring to power when he said "toughest" when the literal entire rest of the conversation he was talking about Moro's power.

To me, it looks like this:

Angel Moro>>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>Full-Power Moro>Jiren

Where Beerus, SSB Vegetto, and Broly just fall SOMEWHERE in between full-power Moro 73 and Jiren, no way to tell where though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:36 pm

BagetaSama wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:53 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm
It’s pretty obvious that Moro Merus is weaker than Beerus, Broly, or Vegito Blue.
That's not even, possible unless you assume that Jiren is an absolute ant compared to those characters, and that Goku, in the context of talking about how Moro acquired his power, how he SHOULD have acquired his power, and how his power is a waste, that he for some reason wasn't referring to power when he said "toughest" when the literal entire rest of the conversation he was talking about Moro's power.

To me, it looks like this:

Angel Moro>>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>Full-Power Moro>Jiren

Where Beerus, SSB Vegetto, and Broly just fall SOMEWHERE in between full-power Moro 73 and Jiren, no way to tell where though.
That’s a huuuge stretch and quite a bold assumption coming from you stating that you believe the mighty Vegito Blue, Broly, or Beerus are somewhere between Jiren and Moro 73.. When Goku hasn’t even been compared to Beerus yet, while Fusion level characters, such as Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc and SSJ Full Power Broly have.. That’s the difference. Base Fusions are already stronger than Goku and Vegeta in their SSJ Blue Forms.. So if such a powerhouse of a Fusion goes SSJ Blue himself, he becomes many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku! (Based on the SSJ Multipliers.)

Is UI Goku many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku???!

I strongly, strongly doubt it.

He’d be lucky if he manages to be just 1000x stronger than SSJ Blue Goku..!

And yes, Jiren is an absolute ANT compared to Broly, who is a humongously large Dinosaur. Jiren is fodder, “trash”. He’s literally nothing compared to even Prime Moro and current UIO Goku..

So imagine Broly, Vegito Blue or Beerus... It’s literally just sad how weak he is at this point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:38 pm

As far as Jiren is concerned, that's some major downplay I've been seeing up there.

Reminder that Jiren is explicitly stronger in battle power than Belmod, who himself is in the same general level of God of Destruction as Champa, Beerus, Quitela, Sidra, etc.

Broly himself has also had the "greater than a God of Destruction" tagline ascribed to him.

If the Gods of Destruction aren't leagues apart and Jiren is definitively stronger than one of the stronger ones, he would therefore not be leagues apart from Beerus, Broly, etc., and in fact be competitive with them, yes? And if Moro is considered the strongest foe who could tangle with Ultra Instinct Goku like Jiren could, then he should also be competitive with them too, yes?

By proxy, these latest power-ups and power levels have all been at God of Destruction level or higher.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:32 pm

On a side note, how close do you think Goku would be to defeating Earth-Moro if Jiren was helping him instead of Vegeta and company?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:33 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:32 pm
On a side note, how close do you think Goku would be to defeating Earth-Moro if Jiren was helping him instead of Vegeta and company?
Jiren would be the bait rushing Moro & getting caught while Goku just smashes Moro's head clean off.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:20 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:36 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:53 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm
It’s pretty obvious that Moro Merus is weaker than Beerus, Broly, or Vegito Blue.
That's not even, possible unless you assume that Jiren is an absolute ant compared to those characters, and that Goku, in the context of talking about how Moro acquired his power, how he SHOULD have acquired his power, and how his power is a waste, that he for some reason wasn't referring to power when he said "toughest" when the literal entire rest of the conversation he was talking about Moro's power.

To me, it looks like this:

Angel Moro>>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>Full-Power Moro>Jiren

Where Beerus, SSB Vegetto, and Broly just fall SOMEWHERE in between full-power Moro 73 and Jiren, no way to tell where though.
That’s a huuuge stretch and quite a bold assumption coming from you stating that you believe the mighty Vegito Blue, Broly, or Beerus are somewhere between Jiren and Moro 73.. When Goku hasn’t even been compared to Beerus yet, while Fusion level characters, such as Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc and SSJ Full Power Broly have.. That’s the difference. Base Fusions are already stronger than Goku and Vegeta in their SSJ Blue Forms.. So if such a powerhouse of a Fusion goes SSJ Blue himself, he becomes many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku! (Based on the SSJ Multipliers.)

Is UI Goku many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku???!

I strongly, strongly doubt it.

He’d be lucky if he manages to be just 1000x stronger than SSJ Blue Goku..!

And yes, Jiren is an absolute ANT compared to Broly, who is a humongously large Dinosaur. Jiren is fodder, “trash”. He’s literally nothing compared to even Prime Moro and current UIO Goku..

So imagine Broly, Vegito Blue or Beerus... It’s literally just sad how weak he is at this point.
Okay first, we don't need a direct, explicit comparison to Beerus. Thats completely unnecessary. We are capable of making deductions based on feats/statements in the series, we do not need it spoon fed in such an explicit way.

Second, you can't simply use math as an argument. "There's no way he is X amount of times stronger than him!" is completely meaningless. The narrative is not subject to whatever math we can think up, nor are the writers doing linear regressions/computations to compute this shit bro. This is why we fit the math to the narrative, not the narrative to our math.

We have that, Jiren scales to Suppressed UI Omen Goku in the Moro arc, who is questionably the strongest that Goku had ever been to that point, and who was too fast for a stronger Gohan and Piccolo to see, than the ToP. So Jiren isn't THAT far behind, but I guess it depends, its all relative. But he is stronger than Belmod, who's a GoD obviously, and we wouldn't expect him and Beerus to be that far apart. But we also have the statement, that, Moro is the "toughest" enemy Goku has ever fought, in the context of his conversation discussing how Moro acquired his power, how he SHOULD have acquired his power, and how he is a waste. This obviously suggests very clearly that Moro 73>Broly/Beerus. And if we assume each are stronger than Jiren, they lie somewhere in between Suppressed Omen Goku in the Moro arc, and Full-Power Moro 73. There is no math with thousands of time required.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:07 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:03 am
Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:09 am
It's pretty obvious that Moro is stronger than Broly

Broly isn't gonna be attached at the hip of Beerus forever. That "probably stronger" line leaves a smidge of ambiguity allowing them to move Beerus up a level later on if need be. A simple "you're stronger than a I thought" and it's over

It'll be interesting to see how Toei handles this (if the anime ever comes back). Unlike the manga, the anime hyped up UI to crazy levels with statements such as "it's a realm of power the Hakaishin can't reach". Ditto for Jiren
Or all the Gods being freaked out just by the mere sight of Omen in ep. 110. The power-scaling in the Moro arc will definitely be different.
Oh for sure

Wouldn't surprise me if they hype up Moro as the strongest while he's old and frail and thus throwing the entire scale out of whack. If that happens, you're gonna start seeing people argue that SSB Goku is stronger than Broly :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:09 am

BagetaSama wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:20 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:36 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:53 pm

That's not even, possible unless you assume that Jiren is an absolute ant compared to those characters, and that Goku, in the context of talking about how Moro acquired his power, how he SHOULD have acquired his power, and how his power is a waste, that he for some reason wasn't referring to power when he said "toughest" when the literal entire rest of the conversation he was talking about Moro's power.

To me, it looks like this:

Angel Moro>>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>Full-Power Moro>Jiren

Where Beerus, SSB Vegetto, and Broly just fall SOMEWHERE in between full-power Moro 73 and Jiren, no way to tell where though.
That’s a huuuge stretch and quite a bold assumption coming from you stating that you believe the mighty Vegito Blue, Broly, or Beerus are somewhere between Jiren and Moro 73.. When Goku hasn’t even been compared to Beerus yet, while Fusion level characters, such as Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc and SSJ Full Power Broly have.. That’s the difference. Base Fusions are already stronger than Goku and Vegeta in their SSJ Blue Forms.. So if such a powerhouse of a Fusion goes SSJ Blue himself, he becomes many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku! (Based on the SSJ Multipliers.)

Is UI Goku many dozens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku???!

I strongly, strongly doubt it.

He’d be lucky if he manages to be just 1000x stronger than SSJ Blue Goku..!

And yes, Jiren is an absolute ANT compared to Broly, who is a humongously large Dinosaur. Jiren is fodder, “trash”. He’s literally nothing compared to even Prime Moro and current UIO Goku..

So imagine Broly, Vegito Blue or Beerus... It’s literally just sad how weak he is at this point.
Okay first, we don't need a direct, explicit comparison to Beerus. Thats completely unnecessary. We are capable of making deductions based on feats/statements in the series, we do not need it spoon fed in such an explicit way.

Second, you can't simply use math as an argument. "There's no way he is X amount of times stronger than him!" is completely meaningless. The narrative is not subject to whatever math we can think up, nor are the writers doing linear regressions/computations to compute this shit bro. This is why we fit the math to the narrative, not the narrative to our math.

We have that, Jiren scales to Suppressed UI Omen Goku in the Moro arc, who is questionably the strongest that Goku had ever been to that point, and who was too fast for a stronger Gohan and Piccolo to see, than the ToP. So Jiren isn't THAT far behind, but I guess it depends, its all relative. But he is stronger than Belmod, who's a GoD obviously, and we wouldn't expect him and Beerus to be that far apart. But we also have the statement, that, Moro is the "toughest" enemy Goku has ever fought, in the context of his conversation discussing how Moro acquired his power, how he SHOULD have acquired his power, and how he is a waste. This obviously suggests very clearly that Moro 73>Broly/Beerus. And if we assume each are stronger than Jiren, they lie somewhere in between Suppressed Omen Goku in the Moro arc, and Full-Power Moro 73. There is no math with thousands of time required.
1) Yes we do... We NEED such a statement in order for us to have a DEFINITIVE answer..

Besides, their rematch (which is bound to happen) hasn’t happened yet..

And so logic demands that Goku can never be stronger than him until their rematch happens.

2) Yes, we can use math, and should do so aswell! Since there is THIS MUCH of a strength difference between them. And simple powerscaling without any need for numbers resorts to something as simple as SSJ Blue Vegito > SSG Vegito > SS3 Vegito > SS2 Vegito > SS1 Vegito > Base Vegito >>> Completed SSJ Blue Goku.

Which doesn’t requiere any difficult thought at all.

There can be NO mistakes with this simple scale.

SSJ Blue Vegito is thus 6 levels above Completed SSJ Blue Goku..

That’s simple and clean, and doesn’t requiere much thinking.

Or are you the type that doesn’t want to think at all?

In that case, that says everything about you and nothing about me.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:11 am

If Beerus > Goku > 7-3 Moro > Jiren > Belmod, which I admit the latest chapter implies...it means that Beerus is at the level where if Belmod punched Beerus, he'd break his arm even trying, which is pretty hilarious. Who would have guessed that when watching the GoD battle royale where Belmod restrained every GoD at the same time?

I really hope the conversation around the manga doesn't get into two base theory levels of silliness with trying to explain this. I fear Toyo may have been too inconsistent with power here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:15 am

We will see in the future

Honestly DBS is that series to where trying to argue who is stronger then who is just becoming a waste of time

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:54 am

Jack Bz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:11 am
If Beerus > Goku > 7-3 Moro > Jiren > Belmod, which I admit the latest chapter implies...it means that Beerus is at the level where if Belmod punched Beerus, he'd break his arm even trying, which is pretty hilarious. Who would have guessed that when watching the GoD battle royale where Belmod restrained every GoD at the same time?

I really hope the conversation around the manga doesn't get into two base theory levels of silliness with trying to explain this. I fear Toyo may have been too inconsistent with power here.
Or maybe it’s just Toyotaro having written himself into a very tight corner yet again.. You know, retcons, plotholes, all this stuff we’re used to seeing from Toriyama! It’s nothing new and just one of the many times it happened. This should no longer come as a surprise to us at this point.

All evidence points towards Toriyama/Toyotaro intending for Beerus to remain on top of Goku, for as long as they requiere.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:57 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:15 am
We will see in the future

Honestly DBS is that series to where trying to argue who is stronger then who is just becoming a waste of time
Sounds like you’re starting to doubt your beliefs now all of a sudden?? Based on what? No evidence currently suggests that UI Goku, Moro Merus, and Merus are >>>>>>>> Broly, Blue Fusions or Beerus.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:57 am

All the evidence suggests Ultra Instinct Goku, SSB Fusions, Moro, Jiren, Broly, Beerus, etc., are on a generally similar spectrum.

The Gods of Destruction are on a similar playing field, Jiren and Broly are similarly described as being stronger than Gods of Destruction, Ultra Instinct is a technique that even they struggle to utilize compared to Goku slowly mastering it, Moro is shown with power and speed to match up to Ultra Instinct to some degree while also being described as the toughest foe faced yet, and then there's Ultra Instinct either contending with or steamrolling these past God of Destruction level opponents.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:51 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:11 am
If Beerus > Goku > 7-3 Moro > Jiren > Belmod, which I admit the latest chapter implies...it means that Beerus is at the level where if Belmod punched Beerus, he'd break his arm even trying, which is pretty hilarious. Who would have guessed that when watching the GoD battle royale where Belmod restrained every GoD at the same time?
I disagree it was implied Beerus is stronger. He decided to lend a hand, he already knew the gem on his forehead was the weakspot. What I take from that scene is that Beerus is incredibly smart and has a great eye for spotting weaknesses. He never said he'd do it on his own or anything like that. Which is what people were saying BEFORE (and after, for some unexplained reason) the chapter was even released.

The conclusion you come to regarding how Vermoud should've fared vs Beerus(which I agree with, that fight implied nobody breaks other GoD's wrist just by standing there and they were ordered to go all out or else) in my opinion bolsters that Beerus only had no other advantage last chapter, than his keen eye for fighting. Ultra Instinct Goku was already on the field, so you wouldn't even need to be stronger than him or Moro to be useful. Vegeta did it and he is much, much weaker.

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