Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:20 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:30 pm
He does know his power as shown in the manga. Goku witness Beerus at his best, he saw his movements, he saw what he is capable of doing at FP, he saw his destructive prowess against other GoDs. So their is nothing to hide unlike Goku previous enemies who Goku didn't know much about when making them statements and only was surprised when actually witnessing what they are truly capable of doing, so Goku already saw what Beerus is truly capable of, thus your examples are completely moot.
Your Sanganbo example legit means nothing, Goku was calling that same Sanganbo who was handling Goku hits sturdy, Gohan said he was stronger then before cause Moro blasted him BEFORE The Goku fight. So your point here legit means nothing, in this cause it is separate from power, cause Moro power wise > Goku before Goku used UI but Goku body can handle UI cause it's honed but Moro body can't. So no, it's not a power thing, as Goku said
You are confusing yourself because you are incorrectly isolating words out of it's surrounding environment. Wrongly using the dialogue separately from it's entire contextual point of discussion. We all know; earlier in the Galactic Patrol arc, since Namek; the purpose of Moro giving Saganbo and his gang energy was to boost their "power." We have Kakarott and Vegeta confirming the bandits "ki grow" after Moro gave them a protein shot.

Now that we have established the fact Moro allocating energy to his minions was for battle power reasons. Not just durability alone. Right after the convicts get power ups, Goku tells Dai Kaioshin and Vegeta to be on guard cause these guys are...Wait for it..."tough." Moro was told by Saganbo that he was surprised that earth would have "tough" fighters. Moro says it's fine, since absorbing strong adversaries is the purpose of his arrival. Master Roshi against the female bandit trio said they are "tough foes." Krillin agrees with Roshi, admitting that they have durability? No, he said "powerful Ki." We got many more examples of the word "tough"used interchangeably in DBS.

This is why Goku pointing out Saganbo being "sturdy" does not deny the fact that Saganbo's hardened body is due to a higher power level from Moro. After Goku beat Saganbo up with UI omen, Moro gave him a power boost. Unbeknownst to Goku, who is shocked that Saganbo is still kicking after the UI omen attack. Goku did not know the only reason why Saganbo got back up is because Moro enhanced Saganbo's "power". We see overall power demonstrated again after a number of vitamin shots from Moro, Saganbo's attacks begin to push Goku back a bit. Where Goku was blocking Saganbo effortlessly before. UI Goku even lectured Angel Moro about going above his limit in power which breaks down the body. Just like Saganbo did. So again, In context, within the rules established, DB has set a precedent and you are going out of bounds when trying to take instances and separate them from the described atmosphere.

As far as you claiming that Goku seeing Beerus full power makes his comparison to Broly true. It's false, Goku did indeed watch the battle royale of the gods. However, Goku concluded that the god-battle was incomprehensible. He also stated that he could not "sense" any of the gods. So there is no way he could truthfully tell how strong Beerus was. Hence why the fact Goku guessed Beerus power with Broly using the word "probably." His statement is making an uncertain claim. If Goku knew Beerus power he would of outright said Broly IS stronger than Beerus not "probably." So you are yet again taking the story out of context and using it incorrectly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:50 am

You are confusing yourself because you are incorrectly isolating words out of it's surrounding environment. Wrongly using the dialogue separately from it's entire contextual point of discussion. We all know; earlier in the Galactic Patrol arc, since Namek; the purpose of Moro giving Saganbo and his gang energy was to boost their "power." We have Kakarott and Vegeta confirming the bandits "ki grow" after Moro gave them a protein shot.
Which means nothing to the actual scene where Goku is crushing Sanganbo and calling him sturdy for enduring all his attacks and lectures him that being sturdy doesn't mean anything.
Now that we have established the fact Moro allocating energy to his minions was for battle power reasons. Not just durability alone. Right after the convicts get power ups, Goku tells Dai Kaioshin and Vegeta to be on guard cause these guys are...Wait for it..."tough." Moro was told by Saganbo that he was surprised that earth would have "tough" fighters. Moro says it's fine, since absorbing strong adversaries is the purpose of his arrival. Master Roshi against the female bandit trio said they are "tough foes." Krillin agrees with Roshi, admitting that they have durability? No, he said "powerful Ki." We got many more examples of the word "tough"used interchangeably in DBS.
You shot yourself with this one, they seem tough, yet power wise they are trash and their leader Sanganbo was considered weaker then Trunks. Tough isn't always talking about durability, but how difficult the battle may be, or how difficult the current situation can be can or or how difficult is was. In chapter 65, tough was used as what the meaning represents in Whis, Moro and Goku words. Deny it all you want, the chapter as I pointed out shows the difference. Sanganbo tough statement refers too how difficult the fighters are to deal with, hence why the word 'tough' is used for them rather then strong. I said before, Tough and Strong can be replaceable, but Chapter 65 makes it clear what's its going for in the tough statement.
This is why Goku pointing out Saganbo being "sturdy" does not deny the fact that Saganbo's hardened body is due to a higher power level from Moro. After Goku beat Saganbo up with UI omen, Moro gave him a power boost. Unbeknownst to Goku, who is shocked that Saganbo is still kicking after the UI omen attack. Goku did not know the only reason why Saganbo got back up is because Moro enhanced Saganbo's "power". We see overall power demonstrated again after a number of vitamin shots from Moro, Saganbo's attacks begin to push Goku back a bit. Where Goku was blocking Saganbo effortlessly before. UI Goku even lectured Angel Moro about going above his limit in power which breaks down the body. Just like Saganbo did. So again, In context, within the rules established, DB has set a precedent and you are going out of bounds when trying to take instances and separate them from the described atmosphere.
The context of this scene in the way Goku is describing Sanganbo, regardless of getting stronger or weaker, is that he is tough/sturdy for enduring his blows in the moment GOku is smacking him Hence why the word sturdy is used to describe the moment.
As far as you claiming that Goku seeing Beerus full power makes his comparison to Broly true. It's false, Goku did indeed watch the battle royale of the gods. However, Goku concluded that the god-battle was incomprehensible. He also stated that he could not "sense" any of the gods. So there is no way he could truthfully tell how strong Beerus was. Hence why the fact Goku guessed Beerus power with Broly using the word "probably." His statement is making an uncertain claim. If Goku knew Beerus power he would of outright said Broly IS stronger than Beerus not "probably." So you are yet again taking the story out of context and using it incorrectly.
How about no, Goku couldn't see what's going on when all of them at the same time were fighting
Image

However, when it was Beerus vs everyone else, he saw what's going on and commented on it
Image

Image

Goku doesn't need to sense Beerus when he seen the actions that's cause from the result of Beerus FP.

So unless the series says otherwise, Broly is staying where he is

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:12 am

We will see in the future

I bet they won't put Beerus > Broly, and the only way they will have Beerus > Broly is if Broly can't go FP which they establish in the movie. If you think they are going to make Beerus > Broly then let's see how legit that idea is

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:42 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:12 am
We will see in the future

I bet they won't put Beerus > Broly, and the only way they will have Beerus > Broly is if Broly can't go FP which they establish in the movie. If you think they are going to make Beerus > Broly then let's see how legit that idea is
If they were to introduce a Super Saiyan version of UI, then I could easily see Goku alone reaching Vegito Blue, Beerus, and Broly level.. (Since this form would be a whole 50x stronger than his regular Ultra Instinct form)...

What do you think?

And yes, we DID see Beerus go all-out. All of us did. In both the Anime and the Manga. But all this means is that Beerus, Vegito Blue, and Broly are all 3 equal to eachother and still much stronger than current UI Goku.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:07 pm

Hello, everyone. I was working on a battle power list using the manga as a base, mostly because it has a more logical progression of power than the anime, and because it is far more conservative in its powercreep (an aspect which appeals to me), but I've come across a few difficulties interpreting the manga's scaling and I was hoping you would share your opinion regarding how strong these characters are:
  • Freeza: As we know, the manga skipped Resurrection 'F', making Freeza's power in the manga a bit of an enigma. Goku never absorbed the Super Saiyan God power into his base/Super Saiyan form like in the movie and anime, so his base form must be only slightly stronger than his BoG and Boo arc base. This means the movie (as well as Toyotarou's promotional Resurrection 'F' manga) and the manga aren't in the same continuity because true form Freeza fights against a Super Saiyan God-powered base Goku after defeating Gohan in his first form in the movie, yet in the manga ToP, he needs to turn Golden against Super Saiyan Caulifla. His Golden form is implied to be a match to CSSB Goku, but his true form seems a lot harder to pin down.

  • Kale: Another problem with the ToP scaling comes with Kale's ridiculous feats of throwing around Golden Freeza and almost knocking CSSB Vegeta and Toppo out of the ring, yet later having fused with Caulifla, and presumably becoming stronger as a result, stalemating with ultimate Gohan. Some people claim that Freeza was holding back, which is what makes sense, but he was being thrown around (and bleeding, if I don't remember erroneously). Once again, it's difficult to come up with a placement for Kale's power in the Super "tier list."

  • Goku Black: In his base form, Black dispatches a Super Saiyan 2 Trunks that can hold his own with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and power-up so much that he matches Goku in Super Saiyan 3. Yet, later on Vegeta in his Super Saiyan 2 form defeats Black relatively easily when the latter had powered-up to Super Saiyan (2? The hair screams 1, but he has the same sparks as 2; though that can just be an embellishment like Super Vegetto). One can rationalize that since Trunks had been exhausted and malnourished, his SS2 form was weaker than usual, which is a fair explanation, but Black had already used Super Saiyan against him before in the past and won (and, according to Trunks, he was stronger against Vegeta than he was against him). So we're left with something that looks like SS2 Vegeta > SS Black > SS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku. Goku and Vegeta are obviously portrayed as equals in every form, so this does not make much sense; of course, one can assume that Vegeta is using that "enraged" form he used against Beerus, but there was no indication it was a permanent power boost, as rage boosts never tend to be. Furthermore, Zamasu then heals Black and he wins against SSB Vegeta (whilst in his Super Saiyan form, and after Vegeta ate a senzu bean and presumably recovered himself after SSB's initial drain). While there's nothing inherently wrong about this, it does seem like quite a big jump in power compared to the rest of the manga's more conservative power boosts, considering that Vegeta later beats Black in Super Saiyan Rosé (which enjoys a tremendous boost from the mere SS1 form); while not impossible, Vegeta 'only' trained for six months, with a regime that focused on presumably acquiring SSG and mastering switching from form to form; Goku somehow manages to match Vegeta either in the same arc with only a few days of training the Mafuba or in the next arc, at the start of which he claims he's rusty and hasn't trained in a long time.

  • Broly and Gogeta: Another arc that the manga skipped. There's actually nothing inherently wrong with the movie's scaling, I just think once again that, if the manga is to follow it, it takes a pretty big detour from its usual MO of conservative gains. To cut it short, we know that Broly in his controlled Oozaru form is superior to SSG Goku, and later in his SS form, he's superior to (C)SSB Goku and Vegeta. Then Gogeta matches Broly in Super Saiyan (while arguably having better feats in base form than the SSBs did, much like base Vegetto in the Zamasu arc, but at least there one could assume that Vegetto had fired off his blast in SSB off-screen and powered down). Essentially, (C)SSB Gogeta >> (L)SS Broly >> SS Gogeta >= SS Broly > (C)SSB Goku/Vegeta > Oozaru Broly > SSG Goku/Vegeta. The concept proposed in Battle of Gods that Super Saiyan God surpasses fusion's power boost in the golden forms has been firmly thrown out of the window, and the "problem" arises that the difference from SS Gogeta to (C)SSB Gogeta is ridiculous, and since Mastered Ultra Instinct is implied to be on the same level as the SSB fusions, if not higher, then this power gap has repercussions in earlier and future arcs as well. The manga, though, of course needs not follow the movie's events to the detail. In fact, from this page, we can assume that: Gogeta turned (C)SSB right away, and Broly's "LSS" form is the same as his SS form (his hair is not colored differently, but then again, Kefla/Kale's hair in the manga is bright green, so this isn't much of an indication). Some people are even arguing that Gogeta is using Vegeta's ESSB form due to the color of the Kamehameha, and some argue that Gogeta used his SS form since his hair is not colored with screen tones in the original black and white image (though that seemed to have been an error). Sill, I'm interested to hear takes on the manga's possible turn of events: if Gogeta turned Super Saiyan and fought Broly on equal ground, or if he went SSB immediately; if "LSS/Berserker" exists at all or not, etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:13 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:07 pm
Hello, everyone. I was working on a battle power list using the manga as a base, mostly because it has a more logical progression of power than the anime, and because it is far more conservative in its powercreep (an aspect which appeals to me), but I've come across a few difficulties interpreting the manga's scaling and I was hoping you would share your opinion regarding how strong these characters are:

snip
Hey, welcome!

I've made a similar list on another thread, if you want to check it out, and came to similar conclusions. The base saiyans are not as strong as in RoF or the anime, the manga has a more conservative approach (the anime as well but relies on retcons). Kale is a beast, stronger in base than SS Caulifla.

-Goku Black: I've encountered the same inconsistency regarding the SS fight between Vegeta and Black. Actually they were portayed to have Goku one step ahead of Vegeta at that time. Vegeta having a lower form THAT much stronger than SS3 Goku was unexpected. Whatever gap Vegeta created in BoG should've been closed by now, or at least shouldn't dwarf SS3 Goku like that. From Trunks' statement, SS3 Goku would've been a joke to Black, yet SS2 Vegeta stomped him. About Blue Vegeta still losing to SS Black, I'm attributing that to the blue drain. I guess the form drains you THAT rapidly. What actually bothers me about that is Vegeta turning on Blue for a loooong time, when in the previous arc, Hit taught him a lesson about it, but here he is, stumbling over the same fucking stone.

About Gogeta, I think it was just a coloring issue(the FC manga has a few). The manga made a quick review of the movie just to let us know the movie did happen, that it wasn't something out of the manga continuity and that the Moro arc follows the movie, not the ToP arc, but didn't delve into it in detail. Fusing in base and coming out in blue doesn't make much sense, I believe it was just an illustrative panel, an artistic license that does not need to be taken as the literal turn of events. Kind of like a post-movie poster. Their clothes are also intact, which is strange if they were outpowered and forced to fuse...
To me, everything happened just like in the movie, no matter what Toyo left out or the full color manga staff did (wrong). For example, there's no Ikari-form mention in the manga, even though it was the most distinctive Broly feature.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:19 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:50 am
You are confusing yourself because you are incorrectly isolating words out of it's surrounding environment. Wrongly using the dialogue separately from it's entire contextual point of discussion. We all know; earlier in the Galactic Patrol arc, since Namek; the purpose of Moro giving Saganbo and his gang energy was to boost their "power." We have Kakarott and Vegeta confirming the bandits "ki grow" after Moro gave them a protein shot.
Which means nothing to the actual scene where Goku is crushing Sanganbo and calling him sturdy for enduring all his attacks and lectures him that being sturdy doesn't mean anything.
Now that we have established the fact Moro allocating energy to his minions was for battle power reasons. Not just durability alone. Right after the convicts get power ups, Goku tells Dai Kaioshin and Vegeta to be on guard cause these guys are...Wait for it..."tough." Moro was told by Saganbo that he was surprised that earth would have "tough" fighters. Moro says it's fine, since absorbing strong adversaries is the purpose of his arrival. Master Roshi against the female bandit trio said they are "tough foes." Krillin agrees with Roshi, admitting that they have durability? No, he said "powerful Ki." We got many more examples of the word "tough"used interchangeably in DBS.
You shot yourself with this one, they seem tough, yet power wise they are trash and their leader Sanganbo was considered weaker then Trunks. Tough isn't always talking about durability, but how difficult the battle may be, or how difficult the current situation can be can or or how difficult is was. In chapter 65, tough was used as what the meaning represents in Whis, Moro and Goku words. Deny it all you want, the chapter as I pointed out shows the difference. Sanganbo tough statement refers too how difficult the fighters are to deal with, hence why the word 'tough' is used for them rather then strong. I said before, Tough and Strong can be replaceable, but Chapter 65 makes it clear what's its going for in the tough statement.
This is why Goku pointing out Saganbo being "sturdy" does not deny the fact that Saganbo's hardened body is due to a higher power level from Moro. After Goku beat Saganbo up with UI omen, Moro gave him a power boost. Unbeknownst to Goku, who is shocked that Saganbo is still kicking after the UI omen attack. Goku did not know the only reason why Saganbo got back up is because Moro enhanced Saganbo's "power". We see overall power demonstrated again after a number of vitamin shots from Moro, Saganbo's attacks begin to push Goku back a bit. Where Goku was blocking Saganbo effortlessly before. UI Goku even lectured Angel Moro about going above his limit in power which breaks down the body. Just like Saganbo did. So again, In context, within the rules established, DB has set a precedent and you are going out of bounds when trying to take instances and separate them from the described atmosphere.
The context of this scene in the way Goku is describing Sanganbo, regardless of getting stronger or weaker, is that he is tough/sturdy for enduring his blows in the moment GOku is smacking him Hence why the word sturdy is used to describe the moment.
As far as you claiming that Goku seeing Beerus full power makes his comparison to Broly true. It's false, Goku did indeed watch the battle royale of the gods. However, Goku concluded that the god-battle was incomprehensible. He also stated that he could not "sense" any of the gods. So there is no way he could truthfully tell how strong Beerus was. Hence why the fact Goku guessed Beerus power with Broly using the word "probably." His statement is making an uncertain claim. If Goku knew Beerus power he would of outright said Broly IS stronger than Beerus not "probably." So you are yet again taking the story out of context and using it incorrectly.
How about no, Goku couldn't see what's going on when all of them at the same time were fighting
Image

However, when it was Beerus vs everyone else, he saw what's going on and commented on it
Image

Image

Goku doesn't need to sense Beerus when he seen the actions that's cause from the result of Beerus FP.

So unless the series says otherwise, Broly is staying where he is
Your headcanon is astounding.

Fact 1:Broly hasn't been factually placed with Beerus. "Probably" is a word contrary to fact. Broly was ONLY blatantly stated to be "much stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. Nothing else. You say one thing the story says another.

Fact 2: Goku seeing Beerus does not mean he comprehended his power. The narrative admits and concludes this TWICE. During the battle and after the battle. Especially when he stated he "couldn't sense" the gods Ki. So there is no way he has a true grasp on their power. Again you falsely claim otherwise, that's fanfiction.

Fact 3: You outright ignored all the times "tough" was used to define fighting power. Goku specifically pointing out one of Saganbo's attributes does not erase this fact. Stop pretending like it does. Again, you take one piece of the puzzle and try to claim it is the whole picture. It's right there in black and white that tough is/has been used for fighting power. Moro is stronger than Broly based on those facts and Toriyama "always" has the next enemy stronger than the last.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:36 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:19 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:50 am
You are confusing yourself because you are incorrectly isolating words out of it's surrounding environment. Wrongly using the dialogue separately from it's entire contextual point of discussion. We all know; earlier in the Galactic Patrol arc, since Namek; the purpose of Moro giving Saganbo and his gang energy was to boost their "power." We have Kakarott and Vegeta confirming the bandits "ki grow" after Moro gave them a protein shot.
Which means nothing to the actual scene where Goku is crushing Sanganbo and calling him sturdy for enduring all his attacks and lectures him that being sturdy doesn't mean anything.
Now that we have established the fact Moro allocating energy to his minions was for battle power reasons. Not just durability alone. Right after the convicts get power ups, Goku tells Dai Kaioshin and Vegeta to be on guard cause these guys are...Wait for it..."tough." Moro was told by Saganbo that he was surprised that earth would have "tough" fighters. Moro says it's fine, since absorbing strong adversaries is the purpose of his arrival. Master Roshi against the female bandit trio said they are "tough foes." Krillin agrees with Roshi, admitting that they have durability? No, he said "powerful Ki." We got many more examples of the word "tough"used interchangeably in DBS.
You shot yourself with this one, they seem tough, yet power wise they are trash and their leader Sanganbo was considered weaker then Trunks. Tough isn't always talking about durability, but how difficult the battle may be, or how difficult the current situation can be can or or how difficult is was. In chapter 65, tough was used as what the meaning represents in Whis, Moro and Goku words. Deny it all you want, the chapter as I pointed out shows the difference. Sanganbo tough statement refers too how difficult the fighters are to deal with, hence why the word 'tough' is used for them rather then strong. I said before, Tough and Strong can be replaceable, but Chapter 65 makes it clear what's its going for in the tough statement.
This is why Goku pointing out Saganbo being "sturdy" does not deny the fact that Saganbo's hardened body is due to a higher power level from Moro. After Goku beat Saganbo up with UI omen, Moro gave him a power boost. Unbeknownst to Goku, who is shocked that Saganbo is still kicking after the UI omen attack. Goku did not know the only reason why Saganbo got back up is because Moro enhanced Saganbo's "power". We see overall power demonstrated again after a number of vitamin shots from Moro, Saganbo's attacks begin to push Goku back a bit. Where Goku was blocking Saganbo effortlessly before. UI Goku even lectured Angel Moro about going above his limit in power which breaks down the body. Just like Saganbo did. So again, In context, within the rules established, DB has set a precedent and you are going out of bounds when trying to take instances and separate them from the described atmosphere.
The context of this scene in the way Goku is describing Sanganbo, regardless of getting stronger or weaker, is that he is tough/sturdy for enduring his blows in the moment GOku is smacking him Hence why the word sturdy is used to describe the moment.
As far as you claiming that Goku seeing Beerus full power makes his comparison to Broly true. It's false, Goku did indeed watch the battle royale of the gods. However, Goku concluded that the god-battle was incomprehensible. He also stated that he could not "sense" any of the gods. So there is no way he could truthfully tell how strong Beerus was. Hence why the fact Goku guessed Beerus power with Broly using the word "probably." His statement is making an uncertain claim. If Goku knew Beerus power he would of outright said Broly IS stronger than Beerus not "probably." So you are yet again taking the story out of context and using it incorrectly.
How about no, Goku couldn't see what's going on when all of them at the same time were fighting
Image

However, when it was Beerus vs everyone else, he saw what's going on and commented on it
Image

Image

Goku doesn't need to sense Beerus when he seen the actions that's cause from the result of Beerus FP.

So unless the series says otherwise, Broly is staying where he is
Your headcanon is astounding.

Fact 1:Broly hasn't been factually placed with Beerus. "Probably" is a word contrary to fact. Broly was ONLY blatantly stated to be "much stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. Nothing else. You say one thing the story says another.

Fact 2: Goku seeing Beerus does not mean he comprehended his power. The narrative admits and concludes this TWICE. During the battle and after the battle. Especially when he stated he "couldn't sense" the gods Ki. So there is no way he has a true grasp on their power. Again you falsely claim otherwise, that's fanfiction.

Fact 3: You outright ignored all the times "tough" was used to define fighting power. Goku specifically pointing out one of Saganbo's attributes does not erase this fact. Stop pretending like it does. Again, you take one piece of the puzzle and try to claim it is the whole picture. It's right there in black and white that tough is/has been used for fighting power. Moro is stronger than Broly based on those facts and Toriyama "always" has the next enemy stronger than the last.
This whole post of yours screams like one giant cope to me.

The fact that Broly and Vegito were stated to be probably “stronger” than Beerus, with V Jump even confirming it later on, says all you need to know (that they’re both relative to Lord Beerus at the very least, otherwise they wouldn’t have them make these statements at all.) Then, on top of that, you have the fact that it simply makes sense that a Blue Fusion of Goku and Vegeta would be the one most likely to come close to Beerus’ powers, since that Fused Saiyan’s Base form is already superior to Goku’s perfected SSJ Blue state, then adding 5 transformations on top of this all powerful Base fusion, and the whole picture seems complete. All the evidence points towards Blue Fusions to be on a different level than UI Goku and his opponents. Yet you’re still in denial and coping. The argument that you use basically goes something like this: “Goku and Shin’s statements aren’t true, because my headcanon disagrees with it, even though the writers specifically went out of their way to have them make these statements.”

Our arguments are based on what the characters actually stated... Your argument only comes down to denying their statements, since you personally don’t believe these to be true for some personal reasons.

So which party holds more weight?

We have the evidence of their statements on our side, you only have your own interpretation of what they “supposively meant” by these statements, although you have no evidence to back up that belief of yours. Only headcanon.

But you’re free to believe what you want, no hard feelings.
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:16 pm

Your headcanon is astounding.

Fact 1:Broly hasn't been factually placed with Beerus. "Probably" is a word contrary to fact. Broly was ONLY blatantly stated to be "much stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. Nothing else. You say one thing the story says another.
Wrong, Broly was placed with Beerus the moment they said he was Probably stronger, and that's not the same as probably AS strong, there is your problem, Goku is stated that Broly is = to Beerus at least when he was suggesting that he is probably stronger. You keep concentrating on the word PROBABLY while ignoring the word after that.

Fact 2: Goku seeing Beerus does not mean he comprehended his power. The narrative admits and concludes this TWICE. During the battle and after the battle. Especially when he stated he "couldn't sense" the gods Ki. So there is no way he has a true grasp on their power. Again you falsely claim otherwise, that's fanfiction.
Your talking rubbish now, and ignoring what happened before that moment he said that. I'll educate you, Goku couldn't know what's going on when all of them are fighting at the same time, even he said " I can't tell who is fighting ANYMORE" meaning before he was keeping up when Beerus is fighting against all the others himself. Goku doesn't need to sense Ki to measure what his opponent can do, Beerus actions from his FP already shows what Beerus is capable of doing too Goku. I went over this, either give a counter argument or GG
Fact 3: You outright ignored all the times "tough" was used to define fighting power. Goku specifically pointing out one of Saganbo's attributes does not erase this fact. Stop pretending like it does. Again, you take one piece of the puzzle and try to claim it is the whole picture. It's right there in black and white that tough is/has been used for fighting power. Moro is stronger than Broly based on those facts and Toriyama "always" has the next enemy stronger than the last.
I went over this and now your just repeating yourself. If you think it's tough = power then believe it, we will see if Beerus is > Broly when more material comes in.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:28 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:36 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:19 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:50 am


Which means nothing to the actual scene where Goku is crushing Sanganbo and calling him sturdy for enduring all his attacks and lectures him that being sturdy doesn't mean anything.



You shot yourself with this one, they seem tough, yet power wise they are trash and their leader Sanganbo was considered weaker then Trunks. Tough isn't always talking about durability, but how difficult the battle may be, or how difficult the current situation can be can or or how difficult is was. In chapter 65, tough was used as what the meaning represents in Whis, Moro and Goku words. Deny it all you want, the chapter as I pointed out shows the difference. Sanganbo tough statement refers too how difficult the fighters are to deal with, hence why the word 'tough' is used for them rather then strong. I said before, Tough and Strong can be replaceable, but Chapter 65 makes it clear what's its going for in the tough statement.



The context of this scene in the way Goku is describing Sanganbo, regardless of getting stronger or weaker, is that he is tough/sturdy for enduring his blows in the moment GOku is smacking him Hence why the word sturdy is used to describe the moment.



How about no, Goku couldn't see what's going on when all of them at the same time were fighting
Image

However, when it was Beerus vs everyone else, he saw what's going on and commented on it
Image

Image

Goku doesn't need to sense Beerus when he seen the actions that's cause from the result of Beerus FP.

So unless the series says otherwise, Broly is staying where he is
Your headcanon is astounding.

Fact 1:Broly hasn't been factually placed with Beerus. "Probably" is a word contrary to fact. Broly was ONLY blatantly stated to be "much stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. Nothing else. You say one thing the story says another.

Fact 2: Goku seeing Beerus does not mean he comprehended his power. The narrative admits and concludes this TWICE. During the battle and after the battle. Especially when he stated he "couldn't sense" the gods Ki. So there is no way he has a true grasp on their power. Again you falsely claim otherwise, that's fanfiction.

Fact 3: You outright ignored all the times "tough" was used to define fighting power. Goku specifically pointing out one of Saganbo's attributes does not erase this fact. Stop pretending like it does. Again, you take one piece of the puzzle and try to claim it is the whole picture. It's right there in black and white that tough is/has been used for fighting power. Moro is stronger than Broly based on those facts and Toriyama "always" has the next enemy stronger than the last.
This whole post of yours screams like one giant cope to me.

The fact that Broly and Vegito were stated to be probably “stronger” than Beerus, with V Jump even confirming it later on, says all you need to know (that they’re both relative to Lord Beerus at the very least, otherwise they wouldn’t have them make these statements at all.) Then, on top of that, you have the fact that it simply makes sense that a Blue Fusion of Goku and Vegeta would be the one most likely to come close to Beerus’ powers, since that Fused Saiyan’s Base form is already superior to Goku’s perfected SSJ Blue state, then adding 5 transformations on top of this all powerful Base fusion, and the whole picture seems complete. All the evidence points towards Blue Fusions to be on a different level than UI Goku and his opponents. Yet you’re still in denial and coping. The argument that you use basically goes something like this: “Goku and Shin’s statements aren’t true, because my headcanon disagrees with it, even though the writers specifically went out of their way to have them make these statements.”

Our arguments are based on what the characters actually stated... Your argument only comes down to denying their statements, since you personally don’t believe these to be true for some personal reasons.

So which party holds more weight?

We have the evidence of their statements on our side, you only have your own interpretation of what they “supposively meant” by these statements, although you have no evidence to back up that belief of yours. Only headcanon.

But you’re free to believe what you want, no hard feelings.
No hard feelings at all. It's just a cartoon. However, you're confused too. I didn't say the comparative statements about Beerus didn't exist. I said The fact is the story presented them in an assumptive nature.They were never stated to be fact. They are questionable surmises, that are based on conjecture and stated as such in the narrative. This is a truth that can not be denied.

Unless you can show me where it was stated that FT Vegetto and Broly are as strong as Beerus? You can't cause there is no such quote in the canonical story. Having that wrong premise is where you guys get the false idea that Broly and FT Vegetto get "carried" along with Beerus as the story power levels rise. Despite the fact that Broly and FT Vegetto were never stated to be on Beerus level, or as strong or stronger. You are making conclusions the story did NOT make therefore out of bounds with the facts of the plot.

BTW, you guys ignore the fact that Moro was already stated to be the strongest Goku has faced. I have already posted all the scans where it shows "tough" being used as fighting power on more than one occasion. The cope is not on my end. I state what exactly the story says, you guys do not.
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:16 pm
Your headcanon is astounding.

Fact 1:Broly hasn't been factually placed with Beerus. "Probably" is a word contrary to fact. Broly was ONLY blatantly stated to be "much stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. Nothing else. You say one thing the story says another.
Wrong, Broly was placed with Beerus the moment they said he was Probably stronger, and that's not the same as probably AS strong, there is your problem, Goku is stated that Broly is = to Beerus at least when he was suggesting that he is probably stronger. You keep concentrating on the word PROBABLY while ignoring the word after that.
There you go again..Making conclusive statements all by yourself. Claiming Broly was placed with Beerus based on Goku theorizing Broly is "probably stronger" than Beerus. You just committed a fallacy. Presenting a definite based on guesswork. Circular assumptive reasoning.

Fact 2: Goku seeing Beerus does not mean he comprehended his power. The narrative admits and concludes this TWICE. During the battle and after the battle. Especially when he stated he "couldn't sense" the gods Ki. So there is no way he has a true grasp on their power. Again you falsely claim otherwise, that's fanfiction.


Your talking rubbish now, and ignoring what happened before that moment he said that. I'll educate you, Goku couldn't know what's going on when all of them are fighting at the same time, even he said " I can't tell who is fighting ANYMORE" meaning before he was keeping up when Beerus is fighting against all the others himself. Goku doesn't need to sense Ki to measure what his opponent can do, Beerus actions from his FP already shows what Beerus is capable of doing too Goku. I went over this, either give a counter argument or GG
I'm not ignoring Goku stated that Beerus wasn't holding back. But even AFTER he seen Beeru's full power; Goku STILL couldn't fathom or sense his power. Understand the difference.
Fact 3: You outright ignored all the times "tough" was used to define fighting power. Goku specifically pointing out one of Saganbo's attributes does not erase this fact. Stop pretending like it does. Again, you take one piece of the puzzle and try to claim it is the whole picture. It's right there in black and white that tough is/has been used for fighting power. Moro is stronger than Broly based on those facts and Toriyama "always" has the next enemy stronger than the last.

I went over this and now your just repeating yourself. If you think it's tough = power then believe it, we will see if Beerus is > Broly when more material comes in.
You ignored the examples. You didn't go over anything. The story is against you. It' presented tough interchangeably with battle power numerous times. Moro is stronger than Broly right now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:28 pm

There you go again..Making conclusive statements all by yourself. Claiming Broly was placed with Beerus based on Goku theorizing Broly is "probably stronger" than Beerus. You just committed a fallacy. Presenting a definite based on guesswork. Circular assumptive reasoning.
Yeah he was, cause as you said, PROBABLY STRONGER lol, he ain't questioning if Broly is = to Beerus, he is questioning if he is STRONGER. And for you to be stronger, you have to be at least equaled, otherwise Goku wouldn't question if Broly is stronger when he isn't even vaguely equaled in Goku mind.

Common sense, get some superstar
I'm not ignoring Goku stated that Beerus wasn't holding back. But even AFTER he seen Beeru's full power; Goku STILL couldn't fathom or sense his power. Understand the difference.
Rinse and repeat nonsense, you keep showing how blind you honestly are

Image

The statement is only made when ALL GODS ARE FIGHTING, not Beerus by himself which Goku sees here
Image

Goku doesn't need to sense Beerus power when he is seeing the results of what Beerus power does for his overall stats in power and performance.
You ignored the examples. You didn't go over anything. The story is against you. It' presented tough interchangeably with battle power numerous times. Moro is stronger than Broly right now.
I addressed all your examples before on top and your just repeating yourself as usual, in fact, you ignored my examples of chapter 65 when the statement was made, so no. If you are so confident that Beerus will be > Broly then let's see in the future when more chapters come out

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:57 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:28 pm
There you go again..Making conclusive statements all by yourself. Claiming Broly was placed with Beerus based on Goku theorizing Broly is "probably stronger" than Beerus. You just committed a fallacy. Presenting a definite based on guesswork. Circular assumptive reasoning.
Yeah he was, cause as you said, PROBABLY STRONGER lol, he ain't questioning if Broly is = to Beerus, he is questioning if he is STRONGER. And for you to be stronger, you have to be at least equaled, otherwise Goku wouldn't question if Broly is stronger when he isn't even vaguely equaled in Goku mind.

Common sense, get some superstar
Goku only assumes Broly is stronger, you therefore conclude that means Broly is equal to Beerus. All based off non factual guesswork. That's only your headcanon.
I'm not ignoring Goku stated that Beerus wasn't holding back. But even AFTER he seen Beeru's full power; Goku STILL couldn't fathom or sense his power. Understand the difference.

Rinse and repeat nonsense, you keep showing how blind you honestly are

Image

The statement is only made when ALL GODS ARE FIGHTING, not Beerus by himself which Goku sees here
Image

Goku doesn't need to sense Beerus power when he is seeing the results of what Beerus power does for his overall stats in power and performance.
Incorrect. Goku stated he "couldn't sense the gods." Therefore he can't tell how strong in comparison. Beerus fighting by himself or when all the gods are fighting each other does not take away from the fact that Goku concluded that the god battle itself was incomprehensible. He said this to Zeno's when the whole fight was complete. Actually read the entire story, instead of running off with parts of it, that fit your narrative.

I addressed all your examples before on top and your just repeating yourself as usual, in fact, you ignored my examples of chapter 65 when the statement was made, so no. If you are so confident that Beerus will be > Broly then let's see in the future when more chapters come out
You didn't refute Goku, Roshi, Saganbo and Caulifla using the word "tough"to define fighting power. You ignored it cause it down right shows Moro is stronger than Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:13 pm

I would like to know how you read Goku’s line in a context like this:

- Moro: “Training is for weaklings...”
- Goku: “It’s a shame because I never battled someone as ________ (insert an adjective here that makes the most sense) as you...”

Imagine how incredibly _________ Moro would be if he trained.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:48 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:13 pm
I would like to know how you read Goku’s line in a context like this:

- Moro: “Training is for weaklings...”
- Goku: “It’s a shame because I never battled someone as ________ (insert an adjective here that makes the most sense) as you...”

Imagine how incredibly _________ Moro would be if he trained.
Yeah, he's clearly talking about overall strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:24 am

So, how strong was Prime Goat Moro? we know Moro7-3 is above Broly, comfortably IMO because Goku was pretty sure about it, but where does the goat stands before that? Was he equal to Broly? below him?

And what do you guys think about his power up? could crappy 7-3, who is not remarkably strong on his own, be the reason Moro why reached that NAMBA 1 spot? because he seems like an ant compared to the power levels the arc was having at that time, and Moro did get a considerable boost.

Or was the boost caused by old Moro + Prime Moro + whatever 7-3 contributed?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:01 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:24 am
So, how strong was Prime Goat Moro? we know Moro7-3 is above Broly, comfortably IMO because Goku was pretty sure about it, but where does the goat stands before that? Was he equal to Broly? below him?

And what do you guys think about his power up? could crappy 7-3, who is not remarkably strong on his own, be the reason Moro why reached that NAMBA 1 spot? because he seems like an ant compared to the power levels the arc was having at that time, and Moro did get a considerable boost.

Or was the boost caused by old Moro + Prime Moro + whatever 7-3 contributed?
I'd say Prime Moro >\= Jiren

Yes, I believe It was Prime + Old Moro & 7-3. Apparently the boost was quite substantial as he's able to toy with the same UI Goku who gave Prime Moro a run.

Curious to see how the scaling will be in the anime.

Seeing as how UI(Omen phase 3) <\= FP Jiren

I'd say UI Omen(Moro) > FP Jiren... Thus making Prime Moro very close, maybe a few notches lower than UI Goku & enraged Jiren. Moro 7-3 will be enough of a boost to have the edge over ToP UI by far. UI Goku & Moro(Merus)(Anime) will be on a different level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:12 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:24 am
So, how strong was Prime Goat Moro? we know Moro7-3 is above Broly, comfortably IMO because Goku was pretty sure about it, but where does the goat stands before that? Was he equal to Broly? below him?

And what do you guys think about his power up? could crappy 7-3, who is not remarkably strong on his own, be the reason Moro why reached that NAMBA 1 spot? because he seems like an ant compared to the power levels the arc was having at that time, and Moro did get a considerable boost.

Or was the boost caused by old Moro + Prime Moro + whatever 7-3 contributed?
You DON’T.. KNOW these things. These are 100% headcanon. And you know it.

There is actually far more evidence for Broly still being above the likes of Jiren, Prime Moro, Moro 73, and even Moro Merus, Merus, and UI Goku!

So why make these comments so certainly? Could it be that you are trolling by any chance?!
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:29 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:12 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:24 am
So, how strong was Prime Goat Moro? we know Moro7-3 is above Broly, comfortably IMO because Goku was pretty sure about it, but where does the goat stands before that? Was he equal to Broly? below him?

And what do you guys think about his power up? could crappy 7-3, who is not remarkably strong on his own, be the reason Moro why reached that NAMBA 1 spot? because he seems like an ant compared to the power levels the arc was having at that time, and Moro did get a considerable boost.

Or was the boost caused by old Moro + Prime Moro + whatever 7-3 contributed?
You DON’T.. KNOW these things. These are 100% headcanon. And you know it.

There is actually far more evidence for Broly still being above the likes of Jiren, Prime Moro, Moro 73, and even Moro Merus, Merus, and UI Goku!

So why make these comments so certainly? Could it be that you are trolling by any chance?!
Actually you seem to be the troll and not just based on this malicious and disrespectful post of yours

Anyway:
Have a good read on this thread. Search for tough, there are 47 entries. :wave:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:16 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:29 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:12 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:24 am
So, how strong was Prime Goat Moro? we know Moro7-3 is above Broly, comfortably IMO because Goku was pretty sure about it, but where does the goat stands before that? Was he equal to Broly? below him?

And what do you guys think about his power up? could crappy 7-3, who is not remarkably strong on his own, be the reason Moro why reached that NAMBA 1 spot? because he seems like an ant compared to the power levels the arc was having at that time, and Moro did get a considerable boost.

Or was the boost caused by old Moro + Prime Moro + whatever 7-3 contributed?
You DON’T.. KNOW these things. These are 100% headcanon. And you know it.

There is actually far more evidence for Broly still being above the likes of Jiren, Prime Moro, Moro 73, and even Moro Merus, Merus, and UI Goku!

So why make these comments so certainly? Could it be that you are trolling by any chance?!
Actually you seem to be the troll and not just based on this malicious and disrespectful post of yours

Anyway:
Have a good read on this thread. Search for tough, there are 47 entries. :wave:
I’m not trolling. I’m simply stating facts. Unlike you. What’s disrespectful about that? You seem to be very easily offended if you think me rightfully pointing out your mistakes and criticizing your behavior is “disrespectful”.

And no, I agree with FishermanJohnWest on the meaning of tough used in this context. It 100% refers to his level of troublesomeness. Not strength.

Broly >>>>>> Any version of Moro > Jiren.

But believe what you want.
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:47 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:16 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:29 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:12 am

You DON’T.. KNOW these things. These are 100% headcanon. And you know it.

There is actually far more evidence for Broly still being above the likes of Jiren, Prime Moro, Moro 73, and even Moro Merus, Merus, and UI Goku!

So why make these comments so certainly? Could it be that you are trolling by any chance?!
Actually you seem to be the troll and not just based on this malicious and disrespectful post of yours

Anyway:
Have a good read on this thread. Search for tough, there are 47 entries. :wave:
I’m not trolling. I’m simply stating facts. Unlike you. What’s disrespectful about that? You seem to be very easily offended if you think me rightfully pointing out your mistakes and criticizing your behavior is “disrespectful”.

And no, I agree with FishermanJohnWest on the meaning of tough used in this context. It 100% refers to his level of troublesomeness. Not strength.

Broly >>>>>> Any version of Moro > Jiren.

But believe what you want.
So you didn't check out the thread that sheds light on the language used by the show and is what has been the heart of this debate, nice. You choose to look away from the actual answer to all of this because it proves your stance is wrong.

It is disrespectful to call someone a troll when they are introducing a debate, and spout "100% headcanon" when that percentage is false and - to quote you -you know it, how could it be headcanon when it was 100%(lol) stated in the manga, and there's a thread with 47 entries by one of the most recognized translators of the fandom supporting that tough and strong have always been interchangeable?

And yes, you are trolling because not only you stated zero facts(only your opinion), you derailed my post, the question was where does Prime Goat Moro stand? your answer was: 100% headcanon, troll bla bla. Do you not see this? and you even take the liberty to comment on other people's personality, this is just too cynical for me, sorry.

And I don't believe what I want, unlike you, I believe what the show tells me. Moro the toughest ever, and tough and strong being used as synonyms since Bulma and Goku met. Period.

Also, you dropped the every enemy stronger than the last speech, I guess.

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