Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:18 pm

Kaboom shared a very interesting theory regarding fusions in the Official Unofficial PL thread, that offers a way to understand them without bloating them so much. And the fights involving fusions tend to favour his theory.

Basically, he proposes that fusion produces a being with an amazing base form (doubling or tripling the full potential of the fusees) but with not-so-great boosts from SS transformations. The meat of the fusion being the incredible base form where it starts, and getting boosts closer to the KK multipliers than the larger ones from the SS forms.

We've all seen how non-linear Gotenks's forms were in Z, and that Vegito (in the anime) was doing plenty of damage in base, but his SS wasn't what you'd expect, a 50x boost on top of that kind of beating would end in a cruel fatality at the very first punch, even if he was holding back. But anime filler, so whatever...

We have that in DBS as well, base Vegito was already trashing Zamasu, but his SSB didn't seem like blue was put on top of that, based on how he didn't make him explode on contact, when in base (pre-senzu) he was literally destroying him.

Gogeta and Broly too. Base and SS Gogeta didn't seem to be that far off, one was dodging him and the other one was slightly above him, and Broly never powered up until going FPSS, implying a 50x boost might not've been the case.
And SS Gogeta took some blows from FPSS Broly before going blue without being seriously injured, and while he stomped Broly, it didn't look like he got the boost Goku would get when going from SS to SSB (anime filler aside, of course).

It applies too, to SSG and Vegito from BoG, without the need to retcon SSG later on.

Of course, this is all headcanon and nothing from the show backs this up to be undisputably true, aside of the interpretation of some fights, but it's a pretty nice attempt trying to explain a little bit how fusion works. It's all neatly explained here (better than in this post)

What do you guys think? do you think it could be possible for fusions to have different kind of multipliers compared to non-fused character's multipliers? some fights sure hint at that, IMO.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:00 am

Goku vs. Kafla seems to be a classic example as well. His SSGod form was completely helpless against her regular form, but somehow his SSBlue managed an fairly even fight with her SS form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:26 pm

I like this hypothesis. And it can be reinforced by the fact both merging techniques were originally made for non-transforming races, resulting in "imperfect" transformation abilities after the merge.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:16 pm

Of course, you then get into the weird complexities or "well how do their forms actually work then?" and all the issues that come with them.

Sure, having the transformations work the same way across all Saiyans, Fusions or not, bloats things a lot.

But the current proposition complicates matters with what exactly the powers should be then for the forms, and why exactly they don't work the same way despite the Saiyan Fusion in question having the exact same forms as any other kind of Saiyan.

Having the forms work the same across all Saiyan-type characters is simpler and makes scaling a lot easier to figure out, even if it bloats things by A LOT.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:46 pm

I don't think you need to presume the transformations work differently to subscribe to the idea of smaller boosts when used with fusions. Transformation amplifications in general becoming gradually smaller as its user grows stronger has been a widely touted theory for some time, based on things Toriyama himself has said over the years and how he doesn't specifically think about Super Saiyan's strength multiplier in the same way the guides do.

I'd say Kaboom's analysis, although not new, is a pretty sound one. It also keeps the broader scaling simpler and more in line with what the writers probably intended.
Last edited by The Undying on Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:54 pm

The thing is we never really knew how they work... who can definitely say how much stronger is SSG than SS3? not to mention whatever we think we know about SS3(or any form for that matter) is based on outside sources.

The fights involving fusion do imply the transformation boosts aren't as big as they are for regular people. SS Gogeta and base Gogeta seem to be closer than Goku and SS Goku. SS Gogeta took blows form FPSS Broly, who then survived a lot from Blue Gogeta, hinting there were no 20,000x boosts going on.

ankokudaishogun brings an interesting point, fusions weren't "meant to be" for transforming races. At least Potara wasn't, so the fusion giving its best at the initial state and then providing smaller boosts for the "unexpected" transformations isn't that crazy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:05 pm

Something else to bear in mind as well is that performance doesn't necessarily always equate to a linear relationship with power levels; if it did, there'd never be a point where a weaker character could continue to fight well against someone far stronger.

The Broly movie proves as much with Goku going through his forms and doing pretty well throughout them all despite Broly powering up from when he was solidly outclassing SSG Vegeta.

It's more the direct power clashes that establish levels, hence why we can say with certainty that Super Saiyan Gogeta is equal to Super Saiyan Broly.

So one can't just claim that a character doing better/worse in one form compared to another necessarily equates to smaller/larger differences.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:37 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:05 pm
The Broly movie proves as much with Goku going through his forms and doing pretty well throughout them all despite Broly powering up from when he was solidly outclassing SSG Vegeta.
SSG Vegeta seemed more surprised than thoroughly outclassed in that instance, but I agree that it certainly proves performance matters. Power differences still come into play, though, as demonstrated by Super Saiyan Goku nonetheless being at a clear disadvantage despite his prowess and use of less conventional techniques like IT to prevent himself from getting outright curbstomped.

However, I doubt there's a massive enough difference between SS Broly and FP Broly to justify Gogeta feeling it necessary to skip from Super Saiyan all the way to Blue, if traditional boosts truly applied here.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:10 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:37 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:05 pm
The Broly movie proves as much with Goku going through his forms and doing pretty well throughout them all despite Broly powering up from when he was solidly outclassing SSG Vegeta.
SSG Vegeta seemed more surprised than thoroughly outclassed in that instance, but I agree that it certainly proves performance matters. Power differences still come into play, though, as demonstrated by Super Saiyan Goku nonetheless being at a clear disadvantage despite his prowess and use of less conventional techniques like IT to prevent himself from getting outright curbstomped.

However, I doubt there's a massive enough difference between SS Broly and FP Broly to justify Gogeta feeling it necessary to skip from Super Saiyan all the way to Blue, if traditional boosts truly applied here.
I would think that latter statement would be perfect evidence for traditional boosts being as massive as implied. We're talking skipping between multiple forms (SS2, SS3, and SSG) right to the strongest form to take on Broly's maximum full power.

There are also direct clashes and numbered power-ups to factor in.

For example, my favourite evidence for there being MASSIVE power differences is the first time Jiren and Goku fight in the anime. Despite Goku being at SSB, multiplying his power with a 20-times Kaioken, and literally everything he's got to push on his Spirit Bomb, he's only barely stalemating Jiren using a small fraction of his full power. Bear in mind that we're talking about Goku who could still force Pure Buu to barely push back the Spirit Bomb way back while in his tired-out base form despite Pure Buu being equal to his SS3 form.

Unless the forms themselves just have tiny boosts overall (which would contradict how strong Goku got with Super Saiyan against Freeza), it seems more likely that the numerical differences are absolutely huge still, at least to me personally.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:47 pm

To be clear, it is largely a matter of personal interpretation; there's not really solid evidence to favor either side of the argument as far as the movie's scaling is concerned. Toriyama doesn't currently adhere to hard numbers as much as the guides and TV anime, and according to interviews, FP was just designed to have Broly "run wild" - which is probably a substantial difference from his ordinary Super Saiyan, but (in my view) hardly equivalent to going from the kind of amplifier SS provides all the way to god+ tier.

I think the one thing we can all come to a consensus on, at least, is that fusion is weird as hell.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:51 pm

Nah, we can go one step further and say power levels in general are weird as heck.

That much is for certain.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:28 am

A: Broly => Beerus > Moro > Jiren

Main reason: Moro was the toughest person, but not strongest due to different meanings. Broly is said to be probably stronger then Beerus, meaning if Beerus goes higher (chapter 66), so does Broly, and since Goku never compared Moro to Beerus nor had seen anything from Beerus to contradict his previous statement, Broly ends up with Beerus.

B: Beerus > Moro > Broly > Jiren

Main reason: Beerus goes higher cause of chapter 66 statement, but Moro tough statement = to strong and he is > Broly, whatever Goku said about Beerus being probably weaker then Broly is wrong. Goku and Vegeta will be Beerus greatest rivals based on oracle fish statements, meaning Broly won't ever be Beerus level but Goku and Vegeta will

C: UI Goku => Moro > Jiren > Broly=> Beerus

Both Broly and Beerus are fodder and Jiren alone far surpasses them. Thus both Beerus and Broly aren't even worse mentioning or talking about. Broly being called the strongest is irrelevant as Jiren is already preceived or implied to be stronger then Beerus, and the tough statement = strong thus Moro was already >>> Broly and Beerus (who Goku saw go all out).

D: Moro > Broly => Beerus > Jiren

Simple, next guy stronger then previous logic

Pick one guys

I am picking A
Last edited by FishermanJohnWest on Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:33 am

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:28 am
Pick one guys
Do I have to?

Can I just say that any one of those three arrangement seems possible at this point?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:48 am

Cipher wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:33 am
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:28 am
Pick one guys
Do I have to?

Can I just say that any one of those three arrangement seems possible at this point?

Well, if you want to be a normal human being then sure, I guess :lol:

but you are missing out on being a edgy DB fan who can't tolerate peoples opinions, and by picking on the right side, you end up having the privilege on being correct and rubbing in people faces, do you really want to miss that?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:01 am

Cipher wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:33 am
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:28 am
Pick one guys
Do I have to?

Can I just say that any one of those three arrangement seems possible at this point?
You can have inclinations. Though it’s not out of the realm of possibility a different approach, I think it’s a fair assumption to say each enemy is designed to be more formidable the more the story progress.

So, right now, I’m leaning towards:
Moro > Broly > Jiren > Zamas > Hit > Freeza

I haven’t decided where I should place Beerus on this scale yet, but I guess anywhere between Zamas and Moro seems fit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:05 am

Honestly, it seems to me that Toyble and Tori really didn't think things through with this arc. They really need to sit down and decide how powerful should a God of Destruction be and how big of a gap is supposed to be between them. Because the GoD Battle Royale indicated the gap was small, but this arc made it seem that Beerus was strong enough to put a GoD like Belmod down without much trouble.

And after rethinking that, they should rethink where their antagonists actually sit in terms of power. As it stands, it's kind of a mess.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:51 am

Was Hit really stronger than Freeza?

In the anime Golden Freeza's true power was on par with ToP Goku who was like 10x stronger than U6 arc Hit

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:57 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:51 am
Was Hit really stronger than Freeza?

In the anime Golden Freeza's true power was on par with ToP Goku who was like 10x stronger than U6 arc Hit
No, in terms of pure power I'd say Frieza is stronger imo. Hits Hax, however allows him to close that gap. As long as the opponent isn't many levels above him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:42 am

Golden Freeza wasn’t that much stronger than SSBlue when they first fought. Hit’s battle power is fairly close to a stronger SSBlue and Improved Time-skip allowed him to tangle with 10-fold Kaioken SSBlue, and he still had his assassin skills hidden.

Of course, they both powered-up greatly after they first appeared, but Hit still had a lot of advantages in comparison. Jiren saw him and Goku as worthy opponents.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:57 am

I'm going with E): nothing will be ever said or implied, nobody will be directly compared to anyone and we'll be kept in the dark, doomed to keep going back and forth as usual, forever.

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