Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

It's up for debate because OG-73 using Moro's backup was easily defeated by #17 and #18. If he had access to Moro's physical prowess on top of his magic, then he wouldn't lose, unless you believe #17 and #18 are stronger than spirit fission Vegeta and Sign Goku (or that OG-73 had an outdated backup, but why wouldn't Moro update it?). When it comes to Moro and Merus it seems like he only copied their abilities instead of their full physical strength.

The story blatantly states that Moro absorbed Merus's power. Not just his ability. This is the reason why Moro's body was breaking down due to the "angel power" spilling over his limit. Moro also stated that his body "became tougher to compensate on it's own." Meaning he got more durability after absorbing Merus power. Moro also was somehow able to override 7-3's time limit of absorption and was able to keep copied powers forever. It's not really debatable if you look at the whole scope of the story.

Those are all products of Ultra Instinct. Whis describes that Ultra Instinct will toughen the body on its own, and when Goku tells Moro to abandon Merus' power, he specifically says that he can only handle that power because he trained his body; he's referring to Ultra Instinct. Moro as well states that Goku and him are evenly matched because they both possess Ultra Instinct. The fight hinges thematically on Moro possessing ultra instinct and nothing else, he doesn't have any other of Merus' abilities. Not to mention that Moro only touched Merus' neck before he even activated his angelic powers: Merus only activates his power when the ring appears around his neck (that's when he was erased, and when Whis intervened back when he was sparring with Goku, so it is what signifies the usage of his full angelic strength).

And once more, there is precedent if you look at 73's usage of Moro's backup.

Ultra Instinct is an all around power level booster. Before, Moro tried to punch UI Goku, his hand broke. Afterwards, using Meru's powers, he was physically able to clash with UI Goku evenly. Whis backs this up even more stating that Moro has "angel powers." The action and dialogue are too in sync to be questionable.

[Yuji]

Ultra Instinct is an all around power level booster. Before, Moro tried to punch UI Goku, his hand broke. Afterwards, using Meru's powers, he was physically able to clash with UI Goku evenly. Whis backs this up even more stating that Moro has "angel powers." The action and dialogue are too in sync to be questionable.

I agree. Moro copied Merus' Ultra Instinct and that toughened up his body and made him comparable to Goku. But there's no argument to be made that he has access to Merus' full power when it's only "Ultra Instinct" that is mentioned as a part of what Moro copied, when we know 73's abilities don't always necessarily copy physical prowess due to his Moro backup feats, and when Merus was copied before he had even activated his angel abilities in full.

Merus (full angelic abilities, ring and staff) >> MUI "mortal" Merus ~ MUI Goku ~ MUI Moro >> Moro 7-3

[Hugo Boss]

Doesn’t OG73-i copy everything someone can do or I’m missing something?

[Miracles]

Ultra Instinct is an all around power level booster. Before, Moro tried to punch UI Goku, his hand broke. Afterwards, using Meru's powers, he was physically able to clash with UI Goku evenly. Whis backs this up even more stating that Moro has "angel powers." The action and dialogue are too in sync to be questionable.

I agree. Moro copied Merus' Ultra Instinct and that toughened up his body and made him comparable to Goku. But there's no argument to be made that he has access to Merus' full power when it's only "Ultra Instinct" that is mentioned as a part of what Moro copied, when we know 73's abilities don't always necessarily copy physical prowess due to his Moro backup feats, and when Merus was copied before he had even activated his angel abilities in full.

Merus (full angelic abilities, ring and staff) >> MUI "mortal" Merus ~ MUI Goku ~ MUI Moro >> Moro 7-3

Not accurate. Moro states that having a backup inside 7-3 was due to having him "not only" copy his magic but also his "combat abilities." To the point that 7-3 had a "complete" backup of Moro's power within him. So again, the story reasserts that 7-3 copies both physical power and ability completely. You are not debating the story, rather you are trying to makeup a limit for 7-3 based on one showing. While ignoring the consistent number of action and dialogue that has grounded 7-3's copy tech laws.

[Yuji]

Not accurate. Moro states that having a backup inside 7-3 was due to having him "not only" copy his magic but also his "combat abilities." To the point that 7-3 had a "complete" backup of Moro's power within him. So again, the story reasserts that 7-3 copies both physical power and ability completely. You are not debating the story, rather you are trying to makeup a limit for 7-3 based on one showing. While ignoring the consistent number of action and dialogue that has grounded 7-3's copy tech laws.

Where was it stated that 73 copied Moro's combat abilities? They only ever specify magic, that's why #17 and #18 are able to defeat him.

And once again, this is still an irrelevant discussion because Moro copied Merus before Merus had unleashed his full power.

Doesn’t OG73-i copy everything someone can do or I’m missing something?

That's how it's described when it comes to Piccolo, Gohan and etc, but when 73 backs up Moro, they only specifically mention his magic, and when Moro copies Merus, he only mentions Ultra Instinct.

[Miracles]

Not accurate. Moro states that having a backup inside 7-3 was due to having him "not only" copy his magic but also his "combat abilities." To the point that 7-3 had a "complete" backup of Moro's power within him. So again, the story reasserts that 7-3 copies both physical power and ability completely. You are not debating the story, rather you are trying to makeup a limit for 7-3 based on one showing. While ignoring the consistent number of action and dialogue that has grounded 7-3's copy tech laws.

Where was it stated that 73 copied Moro's combat abilities? They only ever specify magic, that's why #17 and #18 are able to defeat him.

And once again, this is still an irrelevant discussion because Moro copied Merus before Merus had unleashed his full power.

[Yuji]

Not accurate. Moro states that having a backup inside 7-3 was due to having him "not only" copy his magic but also his "combat abilities." To the point that 7-3 had a "complete" backup of Moro's power within him. So again, the story reasserts that 7-3 copies both physical power and ability completely. You are not debating the story, rather you are trying to makeup a limit for 7-3 based on one showing. While ignoring the consistent number of action and dialogue that has grounded 7-3's copy tech laws.

Where was it stated that 73 copied Moro's combat abilities? They only ever specify magic, that's why #17 and #18 are able to defeat him.

And once again, this is still an irrelevant discussion because Moro copied Merus before Merus had unleashed his full power.

This only furthers my point, though: by Moro's wording, it's confirmed that 73 can choose between copying physical prowess or magical/Ki-based abilities (or both). He never used Moro's strength against #17 and #18, only his magic, and Moro never says he copied Merus' strength, he only ever mentions Ultra Instinct.

[Miracles]

Where was it stated that 73 copied Moro's combat abilities? They only ever specify magic, that's why #17 and #18 are able to defeat him.

And once again, this is still an irrelevant discussion because Moro copied Merus before Merus had unleashed his full power.

This only furthers my point, though: by Moro's wording, it's confirmed that 73 can choose between copying physical prowess or magical/Ki-based abilities (or both). He never used Moro's strength against #17 and #18, only his magic, and Moro never says he copied Merus' strength, he only ever mentions Ultra Instinct.

No it doesn't further your point. Your assuming that Moro only absorbed UI. When the story also states that Moro has "angel power" coursing through his body. Again, we aren't debating the story but your beliefs. Which is bringing confusion.

[Yuji]

No it doesn't further your point. Your assuming that Moro only absorbed UI. When the story also states that Moro has "angel power" coursing through his body. Again, we aren't debating the story but your beliefs.

Ultra Instinct is angel power.

Spoiler:

Goku is clearly talking about Ultra Instinct here, nothing else. He's saying Moro can't handle Ultra Instinct, unlike himself, who trained hard to master the power. He talks about Ultra Instinct, then tells him right after to "abandon Merus' abilities," if it weren't clear enough that UI is the only thing Moro acquired from Merus. The story hinges solely on Moro copying Ultra Instinct from Merus, because that's how Goku can directly compare himself with Moro.

And it makes sense, because, I repeat again, Moro only copied Merus before he had activated his angel powers symbolized by the angel ring and staff. Moro isn't using any other angel ability besides Ultra Instinct.

[Miracles]

No it doesn't further your point. Your assuming that Moro only absorbed UI. When the story also states that Moro has "angel power" coursing through his body. Again, we aren't debating the story but your beliefs.

Ultra Instinct is angel power.

Spoiler:

Goku is clearly talking about Ultra Instinct here, nothing else. He's saying Moro can't handle Ultra Instinct, unlike himself, who trained hard to master the power. The story hinges solely on Moro copying Ultra Instinct from Merus, because that's how Goku can directly compare himself with Moro.

And it makes sense, because, I repeat again, Moro only copied Merus before he had activated his angel powers symbolized by the angel ring and staff. Moro isn't using any other angel ability besides Ultra Instinct.

Again you are picking and choosing sequences. Just putting up Goku talking about UI but ignoring Whis stating that Moro also has "angel powers" running through his body more than once. Moro not only absorbed UI but Merus powers as well. Again this all falls back on that 7-3 absorbs both abilities and physical power completely. There is no getting around that. That is a comprehensive finality. This is what the story states. You are posting the story only in part, missing another half.

[Yuji]

Again you use reductionist views. Just putting up Goku talking about UI but ignoring Whis stating that Moro also has "angel powers" running through his body more than once. Moro not only absorbed UI but Merus powers as well. Again this all falls back on that 7-3 absorbs both abilities and physical power completely. This is what the story states. You are posting the story only in part missing another half.

Whis says "angel power," but Beerus in the very next panel mentions Merus' abilities simplistically as mere "god power." There's no point in this semantic distinction when the story itself calls it by two different names. Later Whis says Goku has acquired "divine power" when talking about Ultra Instinct.

Moro asks about ultra instinct to Goku, and asks if Merus can use the same ability; then he regains his arm after saying he'd love to "try [ultra instinct]" and says he copies Merus' abilities; then he proceeds to clash with Goku, says it's "fascinating how [his] body moves;" he says "[their] abilities are evenly matched," obviously meaning that they both possess Ultra Instinct; when Goku hits him, Moro's body inflates and he says his body is toughening up on its own (a description Whis had used in the same chapter to describe Goku's Ultra Instinct); then Moro starts losing control of the body, and Goku explains it's because he hasn't trained to master using Ultra Instinct like himself, and right afterward tells him to abandon Merus' powers (in this context, he has only been talking about Ultra Instinct) or he dies.

In every single instance that Merus' copied powers have been mentioned, they have been in reference to Ultra Instinct. It is thematically significant that Moro only copied Ultra Instinct, because that's the issue that underlies his battle with Goku. When you add to this the fact that Merus was copied before he had activated his powers, and that 73 can selectively choose between the powers he can copy, then it becomes all together clear that Moro solely copied Ultra Instinct from a Merus that was holding back and limiting himself to a "mortal" battle power.

Once more, 73 can choose (or has a limit of some sort) the abilities he copies. We saw this when he was overwhelmed by #17 despite using the much stronger Moro's backup. You're the one hinging on this sole incomplete/contradicted description of 73's power while ignoring the story around it.

[Miracles]

Again you use reductionist views. Just putting up Goku talking about UI but ignoring Whis stating that Moro also has "angel powers" running through his body more than once. Moro not only absorbed UI but Merus powers as well. Again this all falls back on that 7-3 absorbs both abilities and physical power completely. This is what the story states. You are posting the story only in part missing another half.

Whis says "angel power," but Beerus in the very next panel mentions them simplistically as mere "god power." There's no point in this semantic distinction when the story itself calls it by two different names. Later Whis says Goku has acquired "divine power" when talking about Ultra Instinct.

Moro asks about ultra instinct to Goku, and asks if Merus can use the same ability; then he regains his arm after saying he'd love to "try [ultra instinct]" and says he copies Merus' abilities; then he proceeds to clash with Goku, says it's "fascinating how [his] body moves;" when Goku hits him, Moro's body inflates and he says his body is toughening up on its own (a description Whis had used in the same chapter to describe Goku's Ultra Instinct); then Moro starts losing control of the body, and Goku explains it's because he hasn't trained to master using Ultra Instinct like himself, and right afterward tells him to abandon Merus' powers (in this context, he has only been talking about Ultra Instinct) or he dies.

In every single instance that Merus' copied powers have been mentioned, they have been in reference to Ultra Instinct. It is thematically significant that Moro only copied Ultra Instinct, because that's the issue that underlies his battle with Goku. When you add to this the fact that Merus was copied before he had activated his powers, and that 73 can selectively choose between the powers he can copy, then it becomes all together clear that Moro solely copied Ultra Instinct from a Merus that was holding back and limiting himself to a "mortal" battle power.

Once more, 73 can choose (or has a limit of some sort) the abilities he copies. We saw this when he was overwhelmed by #17 despite using the much stronger Moro's backup. You're the one hinging on this sole incomplete/contradicted description of 73's power while ignoring the story around it.

7-3 was only stated to have used Moro's magic not his physical ability. This in no way changes the fact that 7-3 copied Moro's physical powers completely. This a definite conclusion. It's as if an opponent would be fighting against themselves. This also fits the context of Moro only being stated to have "angel powers." I didn't see Whis say this about Goku. Again, you are trying to skirt 7-3's established fact that he absorbs an opponent's ability and power fully. Due to this fact Merus was completely copied.

[Yuji]

Again, you are trying to skirt 7-3's established fact that he absorbs an opponent's ability and power fully.

Why would he lose to #17 using Moro's backup? Will you argue that #17 is stronger than SSBE Vegeta or Sign Goku?

Furthermore, you keep ignoring that Merus hadn't activated his angel powers when Moro copied him. As Shimorekka explained, 73 copies you "the way you are now."

[Miracles]

Again, you are trying to skirt 7-3's established fact that he absorbs an opponent's ability and power fully.

Why would he lose to #17 using Moro's backup? Will you argue that #17 is stronger than SSBE Vegeta or Sign Goku?

Furthermore, you keep ignoring that Merus hadn't activated his angel powers when Moro copied him. As Shimorekka explained, 73 copies you "the way you are now."

"The way you are now" refers to overall power. Since the context is talking about the training that was done being "completely useless now." This is exactly why it doesn't matter if Moro copied Merus in his GP suit or angel outfit. Powered up or not. It doesn't negate 7-3 from fully copying his prey. These restrictions for 7-3 were never stated in the story. They are only claimed by you. Again, It was never stated that 7-3 used Moro's backup for physical power. 7-3 only used Moro's magic against 17. However, this does not take away from the fact that 7-3 copied Moro completely.

Throughout all these events the narration never changed 7-3's powers, that copied moves are "just as strong" as his opponents. It be no different if the copied victim fired them off. The story states It's like fighting a copy of oneself. This further reinforces Goku being equal to Merus, since Moro was a copy of Merus; fighting like Merus and using moves just as strong as Merus would use them. Again, we aren't debating the story, but your assumptions.

[Magnificent Ponta]

"The way you are now" refers to overall power. Since the context is talking about the training that was done being "completely useless now."

To break in here, I'd say it doesn't at all follow that just because OG73-I is using abilities to the same strength that the original holders can, that he therefore ordinarily is copying the subject's intrinsic ki power.

OG73-I copies moves. That is what Jaco makes clear his shtick is. These "moves" also apparently include punches and kicks, but that's explained as "they're all just your moves!" The moves are all keyed to the same strength as the originals (else they wouldn't be copies). If Piccolo and Gohan train, their "moves" become correspondingly stronger, which means that when OG73-I copies them, he's able to use these moves at the exact same level as the subjects he's copied.

That's why the training is now "useless" - not because OG73-I is now as strong as Gohan, or whatever, but because he's using Gohan's moves on the same level as Gohan. It makes no difference now whether Gohan is stronger than he was, because as far as Shimorekka's concerned, this only translates into the strength of his abilities. But that's also how Android #17 can still think of OG73-I as "pretty weak" even when he's using Moro's moveset. OG73-I is only intrinsically as strong as OG73-I, he just uses moves that are as strong as other people make them, which he then copies.

Now, Moro's backup is a different issue - and the fact that Moro specifies that OG73-I did him this service, rather than "just" copying his magic, indicates that it is unusual for OG73-I to be able to create a "complete backup" that can copy the actual power of the subject (and Moro hints at it earlier in the arc, where he talks about OG73-I touching his neck "all the time" - it seems to require multiple applications of Copy Power to achieve). But it's not established that OG73-I can use this copied overall power for himself in any case, and it's pretty clear from Moro's attitude that even if he could, he wouldn't let him do that anyway, because the point of it is that it's for Moro's use only as a "just in case" measure.

[Grand Marshal 1]

That's good and all but what about 7-Moro-3?

First we have to assume that OG73-i copied his powers at his Prime. Following Vegeta pummeling Moro and leaving him in his elder state, weakened, one would assume that a clear copy of his previous power would only elevate him that high, yet somehow the powerup was treated as enough to boost Moro beyond his Prime. The way I see it is, 7-3 is the catalyst for all these battles and he will 'copy' as much power as he has to. Because it doesn't make logical sense for 7-Moro-3 to be that much stronger and neither does it make sense for a weakened 7-Moro-3 plus an Angel's power to omentarily keep up with MUI and not obliterate Goku.

Cause I don't think MUI Goku can defeat Whis. So I also believe that OG73-i may have copied UI and the 'mortal' powers Merus has exhibited, but his 'godly' nature is being attributed to the technique used by Gods, Ultra Instinct.

[Hugo Boss]

73-Moro’s power is composed by Moro decrepit state’s power + OG73-i’s power (Prime Moro). That’s why he is stronger than ever. And when he copies Merus, he can do every move Merus can do, including Ultra Instinct form, no matter in which state Merus was.

[Koitsukai]

That's good and all but what about 7-Moro-3?

First we have to assume that OG73-i copied his powers at his Prime. Following Vegeta pummeling Moro and leaving him in his elder state, weakened, one would assume that a clear copy of his previous power would only elevate him that high, yet somehow the powerup was treated as enough to boost Moro beyond his Prime. The way I see it is, 7-3 is the catalyst for all these battles and he will 'copy' as much power as he has to. Because it doesn't make logical sense for 7-Moro-3 to be that much stronger and neither does it make sense for a weakened 7-Moro-3 plus an Angel's power to omentarily keep up with MUI and not obliterate Goku.

Yeah, I agree with Hugo.
I understood it as old fragile Moro (say 50 lvl) getting a boost of his full power inside of 7-3(which was IDK, 90 lvl), becoming 140 lvl, and not just recovering his full power by getting a 40 lvl boost in order to get back to his previous 90 lvl + 7-3 and being like 92 lvl.

Or to put it differently, Prime Moro + Old Moro with 7-3's abilities, because I doubt the android added much power to the mix. There were two Moroes, the real one and the one inside 7-3 and they got mix together.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, what's the power chain between PSSJB Goku/Vegeta, Gohan and #17 before the 2 months of training? The ToP was already pretty confusing about it: Vados says Kefla "might be unmatched in the battlefield" when the girls fuse, but when Gohan fights Kefla Kuririn says that he might surpass Goku if he keeps training. Now the Moro Arc was made things even worse: Goku says #17 is about as strong as he and Vegeta are, but then Piccolo says Gohan was the strongest warrior left on Earth.

So, how do the four (Or three, since Goku and Vegeta might as well count as one since they're always equals) compare to each other?

[Yuji]

So, what's the power chain between PSSJB Goku/Vegeta, Gohan and #17 before the 2 months of training? The ToP was already pretty confusing about it: Vados says Kefla "might be unmatched in the battlefield" when the girls fuse, but when Gohan fights Kefla Kuririn says that he might surpass Goku if he keeps training. Now the Moro Arc was made things even worse: Goku says #17 is about as strong as he and Vegeta are, but then Piccolo says Gohan was the strongest warrior left on Earth.

So, how do the four (Or three, since Goku and Vegeta might as well count as one since they're always equals) compare to each other?

Goku and Vegeta, followed by Gohan, followed by #17. I think it's pretty explicit. Goku and Vegeta are the strongest, that's why Gohan doesn't want his father to waste his energy fighting off Kefla and wants him to take care of the strongest guy, Jiren, right away. Piccolo pretty concretely states that Gohan is the strongest on Earth at the time, which would include #17. Goku's statement about the artificial human is pretty vague; he says "he's about as strong as we are" but we saw pretty concretely that #17 scales to SS3 Goku beforehand. As Toyotarou is relatively rigorous when it comes to describing characters' strengths, he definitely would have had Goku transform further if the intent was to show he can scale to the God forms (we saw this with Merus the very next arc). Goku's statement shouldn't be taken literally, it's just an acknowledgement that #17 has gotten massively stronger despite apparently not training much and living a solitary, hermit-like lifestyle.

I think the scaling of the dragon team in the manga is made very clear-cut outside of who's stronger between current Gohan and Mr. Boo.