Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:22 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:26 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:15 pm
dragonball0900 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:46 pm
I've been wondering about this: How strong are Current MSSB Goku and Current Omen Goku compared to the ToP?

We should remember how Gohan, who was equal to Kefla and not that far below Goku, got considerably stronger to the point that Goku could not recognize him or Piccolo, yet that same Gohan was fodder to Saganbo, with the latter walking through his strongest blast.

Then we have Current MSSB Goku dominating a powered up Saganbo (stronger than when he fought Gohan and the others, mind you) like he was nothing. It clearly showed Goku's considerably growth in power when training with Merus for months. And obviously, his UI Sign (Omen) got stronger the same way too.

But how does this compare to the ToP? Do you think Current MSSB got close to his Omen state from the ToP? Do you think Current Omen Goku got close to his MUI state from the ToP? Some people believe transformations should not be surpassed, but I can't see why not, given the crazy increases in power Super usually gives us. And this is a clear example of a crazy increase in power from Goku, and Vegeta as well, since he was stated to be above Current Omen Goku in just SSBE.

Where would you place Current MSSB and Omen Goku in relation to the ToP?
Even if people use the "oMg GoHan Is UrecOgnIzaBlE" argument, they can't quantify anything lol. As a matter of fact, with Kefla never showing how strong she was compared to an actual blue tier character, she is up to debate to being up there. Even if logic dictated for her to stomp Gohan she didn't. Freeza was confident in defeating Kale in Golden, Kale defeated fodder. The fusion should hardly add anything from Caulifla's insignificant part.

For what it's worth, Goku chose to use Omen to distract Saganbo. Ofc that would be overkill, but he wanted to show off. Saganbo was strong, but could hardly utilize his power. A methodical Goku with Blue could easily take him out, especially after his training with Merus (which was more UI inclined rather than power inclined, unlike Vegeta).

Also people seem to forget how Saganbo tanked Goku, even got praised for being sturdy. I believe it's more of a question on which fighter is better, in the same ballpark of strength. So Goku rn in Blue is above Gohan for sure, but so was he in the ToP. Merging everything together, he shouldn't have had to get leagues stronger to perform like this. Everything in Gohan's name is the author praising him and giving him an ounce of reason to be there.

So imo, no Blue Goku gets dominated by ToP Omen, as he should be. But he comfortably defeats his Blue ToP self mid dif. Which means this applies to Omen, as current Omen mid difs ToP Omen, but the jump in power isn't enough to overcome ToP MUI, which is still near current MUI.

By how much? That is unknown. My speculation would be less than 2 times.

As for Vegeta, his strength-focused training boosted him enough to be in current Omen's league (in the ToP he was stated a step below), but with his Spirit Fission it was obvious that he would deal more harm to Moro. Now is he a bit stronger than Omen, is he not etc it doesn't matter. Cause if the enemy wasn't Moro he would probably perfrom as well as Goku. So same for him.
Interesting observation.

What would be your scale numbers for each character's strength?
Let's see:

ToP MSSB: 1

This will be the measuring stick. Koitsukai makes some good observations, so I share a similar opinion.

Btw I'm also a fan of "Blue is 5 times God" and Mastery over Blue means Full Potential Blue, so no multipliers on that too.

ToP
  • Berserk Kale: 0.5
  • Gohan: 0.8
  • Kefla: 0.8
  • Golden Freeza = Blue = 1
  • 'Kaio-what' Blue: unquantifiable, unlike the anime where we get numbers. I don't see a reason for it not to be 20 times over Blue, but seeing how Blue is treated in the manga as even more straining than the anime, it's fair to assume that the numbers we play with are not that big (making Omen more impressive as a powerup), for the sake of numbers I give it a 10, but its situational for reasons Ill talk about later
  • Blue Evo: at least twice as strong as power stressed Goku to make Jiren call him the mightiest, but he is clearly below Omen, so 20
  • Omen = 50 (a comfortable round number with plenty of gap for the previous power-ups to matter, but still be regarded as op)
  • Jiren: I don't rly like scaling Manga Jiren so I'm not sure on this one, but with some simple logic and some anime bias his power plays at 50 (Supressed)-100 (Full Power)-more than 130 (he never broke his limits like in the anime to give us a clear look)
  • MUI = at least 150
Moro arc
  • current Gohan: 1
  • Saganbo: 2 (Empowered)-3 (Powerhouse) (what I wanted to say about Goku power stressing is that as Koitsukai mentioned, Saganbo may be able to defeat that version of Goku at the height of his power, so I'm not debunking myself, rather I give another point of view of where that 'tier' may lie in terms of strength)
  • current Blue: 2 or 3
  • current Omen and Prime Moro: 100- 110 (power stressed, Goku gains more power and probably speed for a less balanced Omen with less refined UI ability, while Moro plays with what he has)
  • current Blue Evo: 100+ (Vegeta def made a more considerable jump in power)
  • 7-Moro-3 = Prime Moro+unquantifiable Elder Moro power (which if similar to early moro arc is utterly meaningless)+OG73-i abilities and power, giving us LB Jiren+ or 130+ level. ToP MUI takes
  • Angelic Moro = equal to current MUI (apparently, when it makes 0 sense but ok) which is a comfortable 300+ compared to the ToP
As for broly and Gogeta cause they play a big role in the ToP and Moro comparsion
  • FPSS Broly = 100
  • Gogeta Blue = 150+
These numbers represent a scale, not necessarily multipliers (at least for the non-ToP comparisons).

Enjoy my totally-legit-fully-objective-100%-accurate-top-rate scale :lol: :P
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:28 pm

I have saw an interesting theory a few months ago (I believe it was from Ponta). Basically, Ultra Instinct is such a large pool of power that can be maneuvered differently depending on how trained the user is. It could be possible that Goku has about the same powerlevel when uses Ultra Instinct against Jiren and Moro, but now his body can sustain it better, causing his overall performance in battle to increase dramatically.

Not that I believe it’s impossible that he has a greater god power in this arc, but I think the theory makes sense, if you see it along with how Roshi and Whis depict an excellent warrior.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:37 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:28 pm
I have saw an interesting theory a few months ago (I believe it was from Ponta). Basically, Ultra Instinct is such a large pool of power that can be maneuvered differently depending on how trained the user is. It could be possible that Goku has about the same powerlevel when uses Ultra Instinct against Jiren and Moro, but now his body can sustain it better, causing his overall performance in battle to increase dramatically.

Not that I believe it’s impossible that he has a greater god power in this arc, but I think the theory makes sense, if you see it along with how Roshi and Whis depict an excellent warrior.
Which makes sense since we are talking about Perfect Combat. This is the epitome of power in Dragon Ball, so it's like saying that omnipotent beings can get stronger when ToP's MUI is said to have been surpassed already. A comparison if you may. And Goku did show that his UI training wasn't meant to increase his strength but better his control and effectiveness in combat, which is the only thing left for him to master.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:07 am

So what's everyone opinion on how Fused Zamasu compares to Completed SSB Goku? I was rereading the manga arc the other day and found it interesting how close the two were. Zamasu ended up winning, but that's because Goku decided to put everything he had left on that Hakai, so we don't know how the fight would've continued if Goku didn't do that "all in" move with the Hakai. I obviously don't want to underestimate the fucking main antagonist in his final form, but still that fight seemed pretty even.

Before he was hit with the Hakai, Zamasu had lost it. He was trying to destroy the entire universe by releasing all of his energy, which led Vegeta to believe that Zamasu could have actually "suffered the consequences" of his rage, immortality or not. So what was Vegeta referring to exactly when he said that? Did he mean something like "Zamasu will end up killing himself/losing to Goku if he releases that much energy" or did he instead mean "Zamasu will defuse if he keeps releasing that much energy"? What are those "consequences"?

Could Goku actually outlast Zamasu and win if he didn't burn all of his remaining power in that Hakai?

I found this part interesting because I always thought the only difference between anime Zamasu and manga Zamasu is that the latter has perfect regeneration... but evidently he did not, according to Vegeta. Does that mean that if Zamasu kept releasing that much power he'd end up going into a "Corrupted" state like in the anime, where his regeneration becomes imperfect?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:42 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:59 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:57 pm
I mean, wasn't suppressed Moro arc UI Omen Goku implied to be on ToP UI's level?
If he was, I missed that part. When was that said?
Like I said, it was implied, not explicitly said. when suppressed UI Omen Goku and suppressed Moro are fighting 18 shows up and asks if Goku is back and stronger than ever, and Piccolo says he is unsure, he can't sense his ki. So I think it's significant that Piccolo is unsure whether Goku is the strongest he's ever been, where the previous "strongest ever" would have been ToP UI. This is corroborated by that, he was unable to see UI Omen Goku when he showed up, he could see Goku in the ToP until the moment where he achieved true UI, and in the case of the Moro arc he was much more powerful too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:31 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:07 am
So what's everyone opinion on how Fused Zamasu compares to Completed SSB Goku? I was rereading the manga arc the other day and found it interesting how close the two were. Zamasu ended up winning, but that's because Goku decided to put everything he had left on that Hakai, so we don't know how the fight would've continued if Goku didn't do that "all in" move with the Hakai. I obviously don't want to underestimate the fucking main antagonist in his final form, but still that fight seemed pretty even.

Before he was hit with the Hakai, Zamasu had lost it. He was trying to destroy the entire universe by releasing all of his energy, which led Vegeta to believe that Zamasu could have actually "suffered the consequences" of his rage, immortality or not. So what was Vegeta referring to exactly when he said that? Did he mean something like "Zamasu will end up killing himself/losing to Goku if he releases that much energy" or did he instead mean "Zamasu will defuse if he keeps releasing that much energy"? What are those "consequences"?

Could Goku actually outlast Zamasu and win if he didn't burn all of his remaining power in that Hakai?

I found this part interesting because I always thought the only difference between anime Zamasu and manga Zamasu is that the latter has perfect regeneration... but evidently he did not, according to Vegeta. Does that mean that if Zamasu kept releasing that much power he'd end up going into a "Corrupted" state like in the anime, where his regeneration becomes imperfect?
Considering that when Zamasu actually won against Goku he healed all of the damage he suffered in an instant, then I doubt Goku had a chance from the beginning.

Zamasu's regeneration was indeed complete and absolute, but it wasn't instant. He always had to focus and concentrate to regenerate, not unlike a namekian. So when Vegito and Goku started to pummel him so fast and so constantly, his regeneration simply couldn't keep up because he, Zamasu, couldn't keep up. And also because his enemies wouldn't give him the time to focus on healing himself.

I think Zamasu would win either way. Goku was at his absolute limit before trying the Hakai, so he really didn't have a choice (and we later learned through Beerus that even the Hakai wouldn't be enough to destroy Zamasu, so he pretty much panicked because of the pain he was feeling, not out of any real danger to his life). The moment Goku couldn't fight anymore, Zamasu would instantly recover all the damage. If we need a very close analogy, it's like Zamasu was a fighting game dummy - "infinite" health (as in it never gets to 0, only to 1) and instant regeneration, but it doesn't work when he's taking damage and can be stopped if he's attacked during said regeneration.

Goku was fated to lose either way, BUT, we know winning was never his intent. His one job was to stall for time. So I'm guessing he tried the Hakai specifically to prevent Zamasu from destroying the galaxy out of frustration.

As far as power goes, honestly, I think they were dead even. Zamasu had the advantage because of his techiniques, but Goku compensated through sheer stubborness. At the end, they both dished out as much pain as they took it, Zamasu was only "losing it" because of the growing frustration of he, a godly fusion, being unable to one-shot a single mortal. Nevermind it being the same mortal he was wiping the floor with just moments prior.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:45 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:31 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:07 am
So what's everyone opinion on how Fused Zamasu compares to Completed SSB Goku? I was rereading the manga arc the other day and found it interesting how close the two were. Zamasu ended up winning, but that's because Goku decided to put everything he had left on that Hakai, so we don't know how the fight would've continued if Goku didn't do that "all in" move with the Hakai. I obviously don't want to underestimate the fucking main antagonist in his final form, but still that fight seemed pretty even.

Before he was hit with the Hakai, Zamasu had lost it. He was trying to destroy the entire universe by releasing all of his energy, which led Vegeta to believe that Zamasu could have actually "suffered the consequences" of his rage, immortality or not. So what was Vegeta referring to exactly when he said that? Did he mean something like "Zamasu will end up killing himself/losing to Goku if he releases that much energy" or did he instead mean "Zamasu will defuse if he keeps releasing that much energy"? What are those "consequences"?

Could Goku actually outlast Zamasu and win if he didn't burn all of his remaining power in that Hakai?

I found this part interesting because I always thought the only difference between anime Zamasu and manga Zamasu is that the latter has perfect regeneration... but evidently he did not, according to Vegeta. Does that mean that if Zamasu kept releasing that much power he'd end up going into a "Corrupted" state like in the anime, where his regeneration becomes imperfect?
Considering that when Zamasu actually won against Goku he healed all of the damage he suffered in an instant, then I doubt Goku had a chance from the beginning.

Zamasu's regeneration was indeed complete and absolute, but it wasn't instant. He always had to focus and concentrate to regenerate, not unlike a namekian. So when Vegito and Goku started to pummel him so fast and so constantly, his regeneration simply couldn't keep up because he, Zamasu, couldn't keep up. And also because his enemies wouldn't give him the time to focus on healing himself.

I think Zamasu would win either way. Goku was at his absolute limit before trying the Hakai, so he really didn't have a choice (and we later learned through Beerus that even the Hakai wouldn't be enough to destroy Zamasu, so he pretty much panicked because of the pain he was feeling, not out of any real danger to his life). The moment Goku couldn't fight anymore, Zamasu would instantly recover all the damage. If we need a very close analogy, it's like Zamasu was a fighting game dummy - "infinite" health (as in it never gets to 0, only to 1) and instant regeneration, but it doesn't work when he's taking damage and can be stopped if he's attacked during said regeneration.

Goku was fated to lose either way, BUT, we know winning was never his intent. His one job was to stall for time. So I'm guessing he tried the Hakai specifically to prevent Zamasu from destroying the galaxy out of frustration.

As far as power goes, honestly, I think they were dead even. Zamasu had the advantage because of his techiniques, but Goku compensated through sheer stubborness. At the end, they both dished out as much pain as they took it, Zamasu was only "losing it" because of the growing frustration of he, a godly fusion, being unable to one-shot a single mortal. Nevermind it being the same mortal he was wiping the floor with just moments prior.
Yeah, that makes sense. When I said that Zamasu was losing it, I did not mean the fight but his sanity. Which might have played a role in how even the two fighters were. Usually, when a fighter is calm/composed, they will be more efficient in a fight, but that clearly was not the case with Zamasu after he learned he had a time limit and was pushed back by Vegito. So maybe if Zamasu fought this Completed SSB right at the beginning, when he was not damaged emotionally, then he would have won much faster.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:56 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:45 pm
Thani wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:31 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:07 am
So what's everyone opinion on how Fused Zamasu compares to Completed SSB Goku? I was rereading the manga arc the other day and found it interesting how close the two were. Zamasu ended up winning, but that's because Goku decided to put everything he had left on that Hakai, so we don't know how the fight would've continued if Goku didn't do that "all in" move with the Hakai. I obviously don't want to underestimate the fucking main antagonist in his final form, but still that fight seemed pretty even.

Before he was hit with the Hakai, Zamasu had lost it. He was trying to destroy the entire universe by releasing all of his energy, which led Vegeta to believe that Zamasu could have actually "suffered the consequences" of his rage, immortality or not. So what was Vegeta referring to exactly when he said that? Did he mean something like "Zamasu will end up killing himself/losing to Goku if he releases that much energy" or did he instead mean "Zamasu will defuse if he keeps releasing that much energy"? What are those "consequences"?

Could Goku actually outlast Zamasu and win if he didn't burn all of his remaining power in that Hakai?

I found this part interesting because I always thought the only difference between anime Zamasu and manga Zamasu is that the latter has perfect regeneration... but evidently he did not, according to Vegeta. Does that mean that if Zamasu kept releasing that much power he'd end up going into a "Corrupted" state like in the anime, where his regeneration becomes imperfect?
Considering that when Zamasu actually won against Goku he healed all of the damage he suffered in an instant, then I doubt Goku had a chance from the beginning.

Zamasu's regeneration was indeed complete and absolute, but it wasn't instant. He always had to focus and concentrate to regenerate, not unlike a namekian. So when Vegito and Goku started to pummel him so fast and so constantly, his regeneration simply couldn't keep up because he, Zamasu, couldn't keep up. And also because his enemies wouldn't give him the time to focus on healing himself.

I think Zamasu would win either way. Goku was at his absolute limit before trying the Hakai, so he really didn't have a choice (and we later learned through Beerus that even the Hakai wouldn't be enough to destroy Zamasu, so he pretty much panicked because of the pain he was feeling, not out of any real danger to his life). The moment Goku couldn't fight anymore, Zamasu would instantly recover all the damage. If we need a very close analogy, it's like Zamasu was a fighting game dummy - "infinite" health (as in it never gets to 0, only to 1) and instant regeneration, but it doesn't work when he's taking damage and can be stopped if he's attacked during said regeneration.

Goku was fated to lose either way, BUT, we know winning was never his intent. His one job was to stall for time. So I'm guessing he tried the Hakai specifically to prevent Zamasu from destroying the galaxy out of frustration.

As far as power goes, honestly, I think they were dead even. Zamasu had the advantage because of his techiniques, but Goku compensated through sheer stubborness. At the end, they both dished out as much pain as they took it, Zamasu was only "losing it" because of the growing frustration of he, a godly fusion, being unable to one-shot a single mortal. Nevermind it being the same mortal he was wiping the floor with just moments prior.
Yeah, that makes sense. When I said that Zamasu was losing it, I did not mean the fight but his sanity. Which might have played a role in how even the two fighters were. Usually, when a fighter is calm/composed, they will be more efficient in a fight, but that clearly was not the case with Zamasu after he learned he had a time limit and was pushed back by Vegito. So maybe if Zamasu fought this Completed SSB right at the beginning, when he was not damaged emotionally, then he would have won much faster.
Yeah, I agree. I think he would still get flustered, but with his composure still intact he wouldn't make the same amount of mistakes he did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:22 am

Opinion(all forms are supposed to be in their ToP time-frame unless otherwise specified):
  • 0.02 = SSGod
  • 0.1 = Normal Blue = Golden Frieza
    I subscribe to the "Blue is about 5x God" faction.
    I suppose "Complete Golden Frieza" might be slightly stronger than Normal Blue... but in the manga there is no such thing, and by the time of the ToP in the anime, Goku and Vegeta improved enough to compensate whatever difference there was at the time of RoF.
  • Between 0.2 and 0.6 = Berserker Kale, Manga Gohan and Manga Kefla SS1
    They are hard to pin-point.
    Kale is somehow stronger than Normal Blue, but as berserker she isn't really effective.
    Manga Kefla takes Kale's power and amplifies it through Caulifla's technique and stacking SS1 on it, resulting into a much stronger and effective fighter, no doubt stronger than than Normal Blue. Gohan is on par with her.
  • 0.8 = Anime Kefla SS1
    She is a different kind of beast compared to the manga self, even just because her components are stronger.
    She is shown being a little weaker than a Weakened Blue Kaioken Goku but managed to best him because... well, he was weakened.
    Also, she kept incrementing her power over the match.
  • 1 = ToP Complete Blue = Anime Blue Kaiohken x10 = Full Power Non-GoD Toppo
    Manga Goku and Vegeta have to use Complete to fight with Toppo when he's using his full God Kid.
    In the anime, too, Goku has to use Kaiohken to fight with Toppo when he is serious during the exhibition match
    And the difference between Blue and God doesn't seem as big as between Blue and Complete Blue\KKx10
  • 1.8 = Manga Blue Pseudo Kaiohken = GoD Toppo
    we are told straight Goku cannot wield it properly, so while it might have a Ki Equivalent Value of 2, it's less effective.
    GoD Toppo also is a little weaker than Blue Evolution, so let's bundle them together for convenience
  • 2 = Blue Evolution = Anime Blue Kaiohken x20
    Evolution and Blue Kx20 are equivalent in the anime, and Blue Evolution is stronger than Pseudo Kaiohken in the manga
  • 3-to-4 = Manga Jiren
    Jiren was sensibly stronger than Manga Evolution Vegeta, but he never fought both Evo AND Pseudo-KK at the same time.
    And he still took some damages from Vegeta Evo.
  • 6-to-8 = Anime Jiren
    Took the combined power of KKx20, Blue Evo and MVP17 to force him to fight seriously and it wasn't even enough to wind him up.
    Stopped a fully charged Blue Evo Final Flash by GLARING at it.
    So, yeah. I'm low-balling.
Now, the main issue is with UI... in the manga, I'd say 4.5
The greatest power Goku's body was able to use(the pseudo-kaiohken 1.8) multiplied by fully automated control.
Basically the same thing happened with Manga Kefla, except the martial ability is the distilled essence of Goku's martial experience.

In the anime, the increment is vastly greater. But it's also worth to note that in the manga UI is ALSO treated as a "Potential Unleashed" form: it bring out not just the current maximum power of the body, but its maximum POTENTIAL power.
Anime UI is at least a 9 if not a 10.
Super Full Power Jiren gets on the same level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:50 am

I don't think it makes any kind of sense to say Kale in the manga was only half as powerful as Goku or Frieza. Frieza's statement is clearly meant to come off as a form of shame and embarrassment that Goku had to step in. Mind you, Goku in Blue ALSO had trouble with Kale, and both Vegeta and Toppo nearly got knocked off by her as well (Toppo literally needed to be saved by Dyspo or Kale would have knocked him off.)

This puts Gohan at the same level as fusion of a character that very nearly knocked off SEVERAL Blue-tier characters in the tournament. There's just no clean way to reconcile that without saying he's also at SSB level.

Of course the other options would be to say Caulifla was so weak in comparison that Kefla was also weaker, or Kefla was affected by Kale's power loss as she approached self-destruction. In which case, sure Gohan might still be below that level (though the story never really suggests that.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:39 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:50 am
I don't think it makes any kind of sense to say Kale in the manga was only half as powerful as Goku or Frieza. Frieza's statement is clearly meant to come off as a form of shame and embarrassment that Goku had to step in. Mind you, Goku in Blue ALSO had trouble with Kale, and both Vegeta and Toppo nearly got knocked off by her as well (Toppo literally needed to be saved by Dyspo or Kale would have knocked him off.)

This puts Gohan at the same level as fusion of a character that very nearly knocked off SEVERAL Blue-tier characters in the tournament. There's just no clean way to reconcile that without saying he's also at SSB level.

Of course the other options would be to say Caulifla was so weak in comparison that Kefla was also weaker, or Kefla was affected by Kale's power loss as she approached self-destruction. In which case, sure Gohan might still be below that level (though the story never really suggests that.)
I believe Kale and Kefla are near Blue tier of power, but the issue is that the featless versions of the Pride Troopers in the manga were able to easily toy with Kale and even dealt dmg to her...Freeza and Goku would never fall for that. So no, she is not blue tier, except from the strength, which can be argued lower since knocking back a surprised Toppo or Vegeta is by no means indication of her power.

As for the comparison Jiren makes when Goku power stresses, it's obviously a reference to the use of a self-destructing power.

The manga suffers from too many visual 'feats' whilst not actually showing anything worthy of being taken into consideration. Except from Jiren and those 2 or 3 individuals who came in touch with the main cast the rest are featless. This is where the anime did a far better job imo.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:59 am

I really don't have a problem with Kale/Kefla and Gohan's power being all over the place, both in the Anime and the Manga. I think it's interesting that way, and kind of the point of their characters and how they contrast with the other much more balanced fighters.

Gohan was shown to still get "rage boosts" in the Moro arc, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he got a similar power surge while facing Kefla in the Manga and in his sparring match against Super Saiyan Blue / Kaio-Ken Goku in the Anime. Sure, he might have not been enraged, but the point of Gohan's rage boosts was always that he had more potential power to use than what he usually displays. Remember, Gohan can jump from the battle power of a regular kid to a battle power of 710 just because he was upset and missing his daddy when Raditz kidnapped him. So it doesn't even need to be anger that draws out his power, perhaps his determination to please the Gohan fans who still had hope for him in Dragon Ball Super prove himself to his father and save his universe from destruction gave him a temporary boost?

As for Kale, we don't know much about her history so we can't infer anything from that. But there's still a couple ways we can look at this:

1. In the Anime, SSB Goku wasn't using his full power and Kale just caught him off guard:
This was the most popular explanation back in the day, and Kale being that strong was just hand-waved as a combination of Goku acting like a dumb-dumb and the writers at Toei wanting to make the episode a big Broly homage while disregarding the power scale entirely.
But now that the Manga (where Goku seems a lot less "hehe I'll hold back for fun") also shows Kale as being incredibly OP, I find this explanation unlikely.

2. Kale is just a shitty fighter:
This explanation seems more likely to me than 1. It's been established in the Anime that Goku is skilled enough that he can fight on par with SS2 Caulifla in just his base form. In other words, while Caulifla and Kale might be geniuses by their universes's standards, they're inexperienced enough that they can't defeat opponents who should logically be a 100 times weaker than them. Ergo, even if Kale has a big enough battle power that she can brute force her way through most opponents, she still might've lost to Frieza and SSB Goku if they fought seriously.

3. Kale has a stamina problem:
Should be pretty self explanatory. Kale had a bigger number than SSB Goku and Frieza initially, but burned out quickly like Golden Frieza in the RoF arc and became weak enough that the Pride Troopers could school her.
Kale fusing with Caulifla into Kefla mitigates this problem.
SS Kefla = Kale's maximum power, and in the Anime, she powers up beyond her limits even further.

While all of these 3 are somewhat implied by the narrative, some explanations being more overt than others, I personally like option 3 the best because it's just the simplest. By my numbers, Kale and Gohan fluctuate in power like this (Goku included as a reference):

LSS Kale : 0.625
LSS2 Kale : 1.25
SSG Goku: 2
Ultimate Gohan: 50
SSB Goku: 100
LSS Kale (Overclocked): 125
SS Kefla (Manga / Initially in the Anime): 125
Ultimate Gohan (Enraged): 125
SSB Kaio-Ken Goku: 200
SS Kefla (Powered up in the Anime): much higher
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:36 am

How strong (and by extension how relevant to the story) do you believe that Buu will be both in the anime and the manga? So in the anime Buu trained and became 'Fit Buu' for a while, indicating an increase in power and speed. Also in the anime, Buu is known to be able to empower himself through rage.

Then in the manga we saw that he can utilize god ki/powers without the need to fully morph into the Grand Supreme Kai. At that point he was defeating the same Moro who was trouble for SSB tier characters. And after the entire arc, he is seen to not remember what he accomplished as the Great Lord of Lords.

So my question is, will the anime exploit this and give Buu permanent 'god powers' post the arc (assuming it actually gets animated).

How strong would a Fit Buu with the golden aura around him and a rage boost would be compared to Blue tier characters? I mean right now the scale for Goku and Vegeta is well beyond Blue tier and Buu is the only one currently capable of bridging the gap and entering that realm of power? Would you want to see a 'God Buu' (Fit Buu + god ki)?

Kinda wild of a question, but one I'm personally interested in. Buu's revitalized potential can be exploited massively (ofc until Uub appears).
P O W E R

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:24 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:36 am
Then in the manga we saw that he can utilize god ki/powers without the need to fully morph into the Grand Supreme Kai. At that point he was defeating the same Moro who was trouble for SSB tier characters.
I don't think that's a precisely accurate characterisation of the power relationships at play there.

Moro was only causing 'trouble' for SSjB insofar as he was stealing their energy and stopping them from accessing the form - for the brief time Vegeta actually used SSjB against Moro, he was, as he says, "far beyond your scope". In addition, Chapter 49 has Vegeta say that at full power SSjB, either he or Goku could take Moro on their own - and that's a Moro who's powered up well beyond the capacity of Dai Kaioshin-Buu to give him a real fight anymore. So even with his potential unlocked by Dai Kaioshin's memories, Buu is much weaker than SSjB. But it would be fitting to put him on the 'God Tier' generally while this is active.

I'd say the likeliest conclusion is that Moro was originally somewhere between Vegeta's SSj2/Goku's SSj3 and SSjG generally, with his magic able to cause SSjG a lot of trouble, and then he powered up to a degree - perhaps as high as SSjG, but not necessarily. I'd guess Dai Kaioshin-Buu may well be somewhere above basic SSjG level, but he's not affected by Moro's magic at all, so the kind of things that were giving Moro the advantage against SSjG Vegeta don't apply (and Buu therefore looks a lot better by comparison) - and he's much, much weaker than SSjB. How much weaker depends on how you reckon the difference between SSjG and SSjB, I guess.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:50 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:36 am
How strong (and by extension how relevant to the story) do you believe that Buu will be both in the anime and the manga? So in the anime Buu trained and became 'Fit Buu' for a while, indicating an increase in power and speed. Also in the anime, Buu is known to be able to empower himself through rage.
He'd be stronger than Piccolo and #18 for sure. Like Magnificent Ponta said, I also put Daikaioshin Buu and Moro above Super Saiyan God but below Super Saiyan Blue, so I think if Fat Buu becomes relevant then he'd be somewhere in that range or at the very least at current Super Saiyan 2 level.
If Fit Buu returns or we get a "Fit Daikaioshin Buu", I can easily see him being much stronger than SSB but somewhat weaker than SSBE.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Psajdak » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:47 am

If Goku actually went Super Saiyan 3 against Vegeta, would the latter really be that helpless?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:23 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:47 am
If Goku actually went Super Saiyan 3 against Vegeta, would the latter really be that helpless?
Yes, Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance. If Goku decided to turn it up like he did vs Kid Buu, there's nothing Vegeta could do.. unless he got a "My Bulma" boost out of nowhere.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:34 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:47 am
If Goku actually went Super Saiyan 3 against Vegeta, would the latter really be that helpless?
When? now? Goku needs his god form to keep up with SS2 Vegeta, it's been like that for DBS whole run, since the FT arc at least.

In Z, yes. Vegeta becomes Gohan and Goku DBM Majin Bra.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:40 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:36 am
How strong (and by extension how relevant to the story) do you believe that Buu will be both in the anime and the manga? So in the anime Buu trained and became 'Fit Buu' for a while, indicating an increase in power and speed. Also in the anime, Buu is known to be able to empower himself through rage.

Then in the manga we saw that he can utilize god ki/powers without the need to fully morph into the Grand Supreme Kai. At that point he was defeating the same Moro who was trouble for SSB tier characters. And after the entire arc, he is seen to not remember what he accomplished as the Great Lord of Lords.

So my question is, will the anime exploit this and give Buu permanent 'god powers' post the arc (assuming it actually gets animated).

How strong would a Fit Buu with the golden aura around him and a rage boost would be compared to Blue tier characters? I mean right now the scale for Goku and Vegeta is well beyond Blue tier and Buu is the only one currently capable of bridging the gap and entering that realm of power? Would you want to see a 'God Buu' (Fit Buu + god ki)?

Kinda wild of a question, but one I'm personally interested in. Buu's revitalized potential can be exploited massively (ofc until Uub appears).
In typical Toyo fashion, Daio Kaoishin's power doesn't make sense in the manga. He was defeating Moro without his god powers (Since they are in Oob) yet he couldn't do anything agaisnt Buff Evil Boo so Good Boo being that strong using his power makes no sense at all.

Hopefully Toei will fix this and as you said, Boo is stated to grow stronger in the anime by rage so they are half way there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Psajdak » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:46 pm

I meant DBZ, yeah...

Btw, when exactly did Majin Vegeta actually became official?

In anime, just like with Yamu, Spopovitch, and all other fighters under Babidi's spell, Vegeta was always, well, just Vegeta.

Majin was always for Buu only, both as the part of his name, as well as what he is - evil genie sort of a being.

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