Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Grand Marshal 1
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:52 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:47 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:42 pm
That makes ZERO sense. He’s just a mere Cereal. Why would his potential outdo a Saiyan...?
Why does that make no sense? We haven't the slightest idea of what they're really capable of when the most remarkable figures among them push their own limits.
Agreed. Despite the whole thing being a story glorifying the Saiyans and their capabilities, we have 12 universes filled with other species that can possibly have unique powers too. Granolah being able to, say, take yyou out from distance with a precision shot, is a new type of attack, instead of the usual atattatatat stuff.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:17 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:52 pm
Granolah being able to take yyou out from distance with a precision shot, is a new type of attack.
I agree. Just joking, in case isn't obvious.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:30 pm

Just my guess, but maybe whatever Vegeta is gonna observe from Beerus might have something to do with the last arc. Beerus was confident in taking out Moro, maybe there's some sort of connection. Might show off what he was gonna use on Moro?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Devilman21/ » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:00 pm

I do agree with Grand Marshal that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Beerus even be a rival for Goku, let alone stronger than him. It just feels weird for a God of Destruction to be stronger than someone who is Angel level, even low-tier angel LVL like Merus or Goku, Especially after we were repeatedly reminded how UI is a technique not even Beerus has been able to master. It just seems like they are needlessly moving the goal post to keep Beerus relevant despite the fact that he doesn't really add much to the story anymore. He's not even a goal/benchmark for Goku since he's now focused on climbing the Angelic power ladder.

One thing they could have done to keep Beerus still relevant is to let Goku surpass him and then have him train with Vegeta to master whatever this other technique of the Gods is. It would make sense that Beerus wouldn't want to be outdone by some mortal and Vegeta of course can't stand the idea of Goku being stronger than him. They both could train together to surpass Goku and it would finally make all three of them proper "rivals" which is exactly what Beerus has wanted since BOG. It just doesn't sit right with me how Beerus spent literally all of pre-Moro Super talking about how he wants Goku & Vegeta to get strong enough to rival him and when one of them finally does he just doesn't seem to give a shit. I remember back during the ROF arc Beerus was ready to fight Goku and Vegeta after their training with Whis (BEFORE they got blue mind you) yet now that Goku's mastered a power that took him millions of years to even partially control? Zero interest. Just weird.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:09 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:17 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:52 pm
Granolah being able to take yyou out from distance with a precision shot, is a new type of attack.
I agree. Just joking, in case isn't obvious.
omg I withdraw my statements :lol:
Devilman21/ wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:00 pm
I do agree with Grand Marshal that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Beerus even be a rival for Goku, let alone stronger than him. It just feels weird for a God of Destruction to be stronger than someone who is Angel level, even low-tier angel LVL like Merus or Goku, Especially after we were repeatedly reminded how UI is a technique not even Beerus has been able to master. It just seems like they are needlessly moving the goal post to keep Beerus relevant despite the fact that he doesn't really add much to the story anymore. He's not even a goal/benchmark for Goku since he's now focused on climbing the Angelic power ladder.

One thing they could have done to keep Beerus still relevant is to let Goku surpass him and then have him train with Vegeta to master whatever this other technique of the Gods is. It would make sense that Beerus wouldn't want to be outdone by some mortal and Vegeta of course can't stand the idea of Goku being stronger than him. They both could train together to surpass Goku and it would finally make all three of them proper "rivals" which is exactly what Beerus has wanted since BOG. It just doesn't sit right with me how Beerus spent literally all of pre-Moro Super talking about how he wants Goku & Vegeta to get strong enough to rival him and when one of them finally does he just doesn't seem to give a shit. I remember back during the ROF arc Beerus was ready to fight Goku and Vegeta after their training with Whis (BEFORE they got blue mind you) yet now that Goku's mastered a power that took him millions of years to even partially control? Zero interest. Just weird.
Kinda fishy ain't it? Like this is the first time EVER we hear of Beerus going to training to 'wake up'. What the hell. This could be a decent argument, if Whis or Beerus himself stated in the previous arcs that he wasn't present if needed due to him training!!!! I would have totally bought the thing and say "Hmm, well, Beerus has been training in the entirety of Super, so he may end up becoming stronger himself to rival powers which far exceed his colleague GoDs". But nooooooo, we had to reach the 6th arc for a remote statement.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:29 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:47 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:42 pm
That makes ZERO sense. He’s just a mere Cereal. Why would his potential outdo a Saiyan...?
Why does that make no sense? We haven't the slightest idea of what they're really capable of when the most remarkable figures among them push their own limits.
Would you please just listen to yourself and see what you’re defending here? We are told from the beginning of the series that Saiyans have the most potential bar for a few mutants here and there.. Goku has literally mastered Ultra Instinct - the pinnacle of all fighting power and the ultimate technique of the Gods, there y having become the strongest mortal in the universe now. Yet a random space alien (of a planet that the superior Saiyans invaded even!) somehow trains in anger like Jiren and we expect him to become all around superior to UI Goku???!

Well.. Sorry.. But I can’t accept that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:41 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:29 pm
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:47 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:42 pm
That makes ZERO sense. He’s just a mere Cereal. Why would his potential outdo a Saiyan...?
Why does that make no sense? We haven't the slightest idea of what they're really capable of when the most remarkable figures among them push their own limits.
Would you please just listen to yourself and see what you’re defending here? We are told from the beginning of the series that Saiyans have the most potential bar for a few mutants here and there.. Goku has literally mastered Ultra Instinct - the pinnacle of all fighting power and the ultimate technique of the Gods, there y having become the strongest mortal in the universe now. Yet a random space alien (of a planet that the superior Saiyans invaded even!) somehow trains in anger like Jiren and we expect him to become all around superior to UI Goku???!

Well.. Sorry.. But I can’t accept that.
Okay. What you personally can't accept is what you can't accept - that doesn't matter much to me either way. But at this point we only know more-or-less 3 things about Cerealians, so acting like there's nothing to find out and no progress to be made by more talented members of their species is...premature in the extreme. We've already been told that Granola is becoming "crazy strong", even as he is. And you have no idea what he's going to do, specifically.

One may as well argue that a mere Saiyan could never surpass Freeza, the strongest Mortal in the Universe (who destroyed the inferior Saiyans even!), by training and powering up in anger, on the grounds that that makes 'no sense' either. And yet, here we are, with that having long since happened. Might not be a great idea to jump the gun and decide what's impossible stuff that you just can't live with, yet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:00 pm

So, with the confirmation that Ultra Instinct has different levels of mastery and Gods of Destruction have another skill(s) to contrast with it, we get that Beerus still has a notable edge over Goku and Vegeta, even as they are now. Although we don’t know how much Vegeta can develop, it seems at least that he will catch Goku up somehow.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:45 pm

I don't know why people can't see some random come in and be stronger than Goku. UI is still KI amount based. We seen that against Moro, when the Z team's Ki was only enough to make Goku go Blue. UI was achieved when a huge sum of ki was delivered to him. Again, Granolah being born as the strongest is all based on ki size. This is what Toriyama stated in an interview too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:13 am

Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:45 pm
I don't know why people can't see some random come in and be stronger than Goku. UI is still KI amount based. We seen that against Moro, when the Z team's Ki was only enough to make Goku go Blue. UI was achieved when a huge sum of ki was delivered to him. Again, Granolah being born as the strongest is all based on ki size. This is what Toriyama stated in an interview too.
Have you not read the latest Arc??? UI is based 100% on pure “God Ki”... It’s been stated multiple times that Goku’s UI form couldn’t be sensed by Vegeta, the Yardrats, or the other Z Fighters because it has God Ki.. They also stated that normal ki was of no good use to power Goku back into UI again after losing his energy to Planet Moro.. (It was Bulma who stated that, after Dende made a similair comment on how his own “Divine Ki” wasn’t enough to help out..) Then Bulma said something along the lines of: “I don’t get what you guys are talking about, but I get the implication here that regular ki is not going to work in bringing Goku back into UI again..” (Which we know is based around God Ki.) Then we have Uub sending out a massive ball of.... (You guessed it, GOD Energy!) And only then were they able to bring Goku back into UI again.. I suggest you go read DBS Manga Chapter 66 again for clarification on it.. I have a feeling you missed it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:10 am

If you guys had to rank all of the known angels from strongest to weakest, what would your list be?

Mine would go like this:

1. Daishinkan
2. Cus
3. Vados
4. Whis
5. Marcarita
6. Cognac
7. Martinu
8. Awamo
9. Sour
10. Cukatail
11. Korn
12. Mohito
13. Camparri
14. Merus

(Granted most of it is speculation but feel free to make your own).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:36 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:13 am
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:45 pm
I don't know why people can't see some random come in and be stronger than Goku. UI is still KI amount based. We seen that against Moro, when the Z team's Ki was only enough to make Goku go Blue. UI was achieved when a huge sum of ki was delivered to him. Again, Granolah being born as the strongest is all based on ki size. This is what Toriyama stated in an interview too.
Have you not read the latest Arc??? UI is based 100% on pure “God Ki”... It’s been stated multiple times that Goku’s UI form couldn’t be sensed by Vegeta, the Yardrats, or the other Z Fighters because it has God Ki.. They also stated that normal ki was of no good use to power Goku back into UI again after losing his energy to Planet Moro.. (It was Bulma who stated that, after Dende made a similair comment on how his own “Divine Ki” wasn’t enough to help out..) Then Bulma said something along the lines of: “I don’t get what you guys are talking about, but I get the implication here that regular ki is not going to work in bringing Goku back into UI again..” (Which we know is based around God Ki.) Then we have Uub sending out a massive ball of.... (You guessed it, GOD Energy!) And only then were they able to bring Goku back into UI again.. I suggest you go read DBS Manga Chapter 66 again for clarification on it.. I have a feeling you missed it.
Yes, you just reinforced my point about UI strength level being based on huge amounts of Ki.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:11 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:10 am
If you guys had to rank all of the known angels from strongest to weakest, what would your list be?

Mine would go like this:

1. Daishinkan
2. Cus
3. Vados
4. Whis
5. Marcarita
6. Cognac
7. Martinu
8. Awamo
9. Sour
10. Cukatail
11. Korn
12. Mohito
13. Camparri
14. Merus

(Granted most of it is speculation but feel free to make your own).
No reason to put Cus above all the others just because the manga stated she is somehow the oldest.. I would definitely pick the Universe 1 Angel, as he’s the only one who had something “ability related” to him in his character bio.. It said that he could “sense literally EVERYTHING.!” And he is also the Angel for the number 1 highest ranked universe by Zeno sama.. So it makes total sense if he were to be the strongest of the Grand Priest’s children.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:06 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:13 am
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:45 pm
I don't know why people can't see some random come in and be stronger than Goku. UI is still KI amount based. We seen that against Moro, when the Z team's Ki was only enough to make Goku go Blue. UI was achieved when a huge sum of ki was delivered to him. Again, Granolah being born as the strongest is all based on ki size. This is what Toriyama stated in an interview too.
Have you not read the latest Arc??? UI is based 100% on pure “God Ki”... It’s been stated multiple times that Goku’s UI form couldn’t be sensed by Vegeta, the Yardrats, or the other Z Fighters because it has God Ki.. They also stated that normal ki was of no good use to power Goku back into UI again after losing his energy to Planet Moro.. (It was Bulma who stated that, after Dende made a similair comment on how his own “Divine Ki” wasn’t enough to help out..) Then Bulma said something along the lines of: “I don’t get what you guys are talking about, but I get the implication here that regular ki is not going to work in bringing Goku back into UI again..” (Which we know is based around God Ki.) Then we have Uub sending out a massive ball of.... (You guessed it, GOD Energy!) And only then were they able to bring Goku back into UI again.. I suggest you go read DBS Manga Chapter 66 again for clarification on it.. I have a feeling you missed it.
Bear in mind that SS God and SS Blue also use God Ki... And Goku regained it just fine with everyone's regular ki. I know what you mean, but it's clearly not a hard rule for Toyo and Tori it seems that "God Ki" is such a special thing anymore. It really just depends on the moment.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:17 am

Energy donation is an asspull for DB. When the hero needs to overcome the enemy, the characters will donate as much energy as the plot demands. Here they only make Goku go blue, but say in FT arc Goku and Vegeta in base powered up Trunks enough (with the power of some people around) to overpower Merged Zamasu at his peak. SO I'd say don't take this type of energy donation instances as factual. Does this mean kid Uub claps Jiren? Possibly. Daikaioshin should have also killed Buu with his energy sealed cause current Buu awakening the Daikaioshin allowed him to push God tier Moro back. So yeah, bs scaling and plot devices.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:34 pm

We have a decent reference for how strong the Heata gang and Granolah are by this point. Elec laid low while Freeza's empire was running, so presumably he and the others average around the Namek arc battle powers; all with the exception of Gas, who bests even Granolah. Granolah, of course, defeated the OG artificial humans. Without a copy backup, all of them are equal to 73 without any backups as well (as stated by Goichi).

OG-73 was able to outspeed weighted Piccolo back in the Moro arc to grab his neck (even if Piccolo had his guard down, this is still a remarkable feat) and Granolah defeated several OGs with one shot. Depending on how strong you believe weighted Piccolo (before training) to be by the Moro arc, Granolah at the moment (and Gas, by extension) could range anywhere from perfect Cell to the weaker Boo forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:47 pm

Yuji wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:34 pm
We have a decent reference for how strong the Heata gang and Granolah are by this point. Elec laid low while Freeza's empire was running, so presumably he and the others average around the Namek arc battle powers; all with the exception of Gas, who bests even Granolah. Granolah, of course, defeated the OG artificial humans. Without a copy backup, all of them are equal to 73 without any backups as well (as stated by Goichi).

OG-73 was able to outspeed weighted Piccolo back in the Moro arc to grab his neck (even if Piccolo had his guard down, this is still a remarkable feat) and Granolah defeated several OGs with one shot. Depending on how strong you believe weighted Piccolo (before training) to be by the Moro arc, Granolah at the moment (and Gas, by extension) could range anywhere from perfect Cell to the weaker Boo forms.
I'm pretty sure that by the point OG-73 went to Earth to the first time, he had already been empowered by Moro. And we were shown beforehand that the empowered prisoners were able to push back Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyans level of power.

Unless it was stated that 73 was specifically not been given power by Moro, his "base" strength should not be that high. Otherwise the Galactic Patrol would never have been able to capture him - even with Merus around they never messed with Freeza, after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:48 pm

Yuji wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:34 pm
We have a decent reference for how strong the Heata gang and Granolah are by this point. Elec laid low while Freeza's empire was running, so presumably he and the others average around the Namek arc battle powers; all with the exception of Gas, who bests even Granolah. Granolah, of course, defeated the OG artificial humans. Without a copy backup, all of them are equal to 73 without any backups as well (as stated by Goichi).

OG-73 was able to outspeed weighted Piccolo back in the Moro arc to grab his neck (even if Piccolo had his guard down, this is still a remarkable feat) and Granolah defeated several OGs with one shot. Depending on how strong you believe weighted Piccolo (before training) to be by the Moro arc, Granolah at the moment (and Gas, by extension) could range anywhere from perfect Cell to the weaker Boo forms.
So pretty much a 'challenge' for current SS and SS2 Goku, maybe SS3 if we wank?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:02 pm

Thani wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:47 pm
Yuji wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:34 pm
We have a decent reference for how strong the Heata gang and Granolah are by this point. Elec laid low while Freeza's empire was running, so presumably he and the others average around the Namek arc battle powers; all with the exception of Gas, who bests even Granolah. Granolah, of course, defeated the OG artificial humans. Without a copy backup, all of them are equal to 73 without any backups as well (as stated by Goichi).

OG-73 was able to outspeed weighted Piccolo back in the Moro arc to grab his neck (even if Piccolo had his guard down, this is still a remarkable feat) and Granolah defeated several OGs with one shot. Depending on how strong you believe weighted Piccolo (before training) to be by the Moro arc, Granolah at the moment (and Gas, by extension) could range anywhere from perfect Cell to the weaker Boo forms.
I'm pretty sure that by the point OG-73 went to Earth to the first time, he had already been empowered by Moro. And we were shown beforehand that the empowered prisoners were able to push back Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyans level of power.

Unless it was stated that 73 was specifically not been given power by Moro, his "base" strength should not be that high. Otherwise the Galactic Patrol would never have been able to capture him - even with Merus around they never messed with Freeza, after all.
Goichi states all the other OG soldiers were powered-up with 73's increased physical capabilities (as Saganbo's gang stated previously that 73 was much weaker when they first stole him). Also, Jaco stated that it was Merus who took care of 73 and the gang. Merus probably wasn't around for Freeza or thought he was too big of a fish to take down for the balance of the universe even if he could.
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:48 pm
So pretty much a 'challenge' for current SS and SS2 Goku, maybe SS3 if we wank?
I'd say SS2 at best. We have to keep in mind that the only reference we have right now is pre-training Piccolo, who should still be weaker than current SS Goku and Vegeta going by the U6 arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:02 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:11 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:10 am
If you guys had to rank all of the known angels from strongest to weakest, what would your list be?

Mine would go like this:

1. Daishinkan
2. Cus
3. Vados
4. Whis
5. Marcarita
6. Cognac
7. Martinu
8. Awamo
9. Sour
10. Cukatail
11. Korn
12. Mohito
13. Camparri
14. Merus

(Granted most of it is speculation but feel free to make your own).
No reason to put Cus above all the others just because the manga stated she is somehow the oldest.. I would definitely pick the Universe 1 Angel, as he’s the only one who had something “ability related” to him in his character bio.. It said that he could “sense literally EVERYTHING.!” And he is also the Angel for the number 1 highest ranked universe by Zeno sama.. So it makes total sense if he were to be the strongest of the Grand Priest’s children.
I don't trust those bios. Didn't they also claim that the Universe 5 angel is "female like"?

If the Universe 1 angel is the strongest or has any unique ability then surely he would've gotten some screentime, but he didn't. U1 being the highest ranked also has nothing to do with anything. U7 is one of the lowest rated ones and we all know that Beerus is one of the stronger GoDs if not THE strongest GoD. The U1 GoD was nothing special compared to the other GoDs.

Ranking the angels right now makes 0 sense as we don't know much about any of them. All we know is that the Grand Priest is number 1 and Merus is the weakest.

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