Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 am

What are the odds, this “Strongest Warrior in the Universe” will somehow still be weaker than Beerus?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:38 am

shadd21 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 am
What are the odds, this “Strongest Warrior in the Universe” will somehow still be weaker than Beerus?
What are the odds that since the 'multiverse' was never specified, that they will be weaker than Jiren. :twisted: 8) :mrgreen:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:02 pm

shadd21 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 am
What are the odds, this “Strongest Warrior in the Universe” will somehow still be weaker than Beerus?
That's probably gonna be the case. I bet Goku'll be half way climbing the UI ladder, surpassing a bunch of angels but still be weaker than Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:12 pm

shadd21 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 am
What are the odds, this “Strongest Warrior in the Universe” will somehow still be weaker than Beerus?
Extremely high, I would say!

So, that way, by having Beerus around he can still "defeat" the enemy like he was about to do in the Moro arc.

And there is no actual real danger at all.

(For me that is an issue currently, because we know that there won't be any enemy stronger or even undefeatable, if Beerus is not stronger, then Whis will certainly be.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:05 am

Gogeta SSJ Blue wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:12 pm
shadd21 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 am
What are the odds, this “Strongest Warrior in the Universe” will somehow still be weaker than Beerus?
(For me that is an issue currently, because we know that there won't be any enemy stronger or even undefeatable, if Beerus is not stronger, then Whis will certainly be.)
I’d argue Whis is less of an offender here as Moro arc established that Angel can’t fight outside of training or else they’re disappear, granted the ability to rewind time and revive the dead is still a major tension killer.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:47 pm

For those who think Broly is stronger than Jiren, which form do you consider Broly to have surpassed him? Freeza says in the novelization that Broly is the strongest while fighting him in his Super Saiyan form, before he transforms into his full-power green-haired form. If you consider Broly stronger in his regular SS state, what's the difference between his SS and his full power SS forms?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:19 pm

Yuji wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:47 pm
For those who think Broly is stronger than Jiren, which form do you consider Broly to have surpassed him? Freeza says in the novelization that Broly is the strongest while fighting him in his Super Saiyan form, before he transforms into his full-power green-haired form. If you consider Broly stronger in his regular SS state, what's the difference between his SS and his full power SS forms?
As someone who thinks that Broly didn't surpass Jiren, I feel like his SS form would not be enough to challenge anyone beyond the KKx20 Blue tier of power in the ending of ToP. His FP SS is imo stronger than God Fusion, but half (to get stomped that easily) as strong as Blue Fusion. I regard Blue Fusion equal to ToP MUI and therefore believe that FP SS Broly would push Jiren to his Full Power, but would ultimately lose to his Super Full Power, cause Jiren would end him before he could grow. Very competetive battle though.

As for the manga a similar idea: FPSS Broly, FP Jiren (with hints of his actual full power) and Prime Moro are more or less enemies of equal strength.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:51 pm

Yuji wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:47 pm
For those who think Broly is stronger than Jiren, which form do you consider Broly to have surpassed him? Freeza says in the novelization that Broly is the strongest while fighting him in his Super Saiyan form, before he transforms into his full-power green-haired form. If you consider Broly stronger in his regular SS state, what's the difference between his SS and his full power SS forms?
I have Broly surpassing Jiren once he goes FPSS... Not by a lot tho. In the same tier, just a notch above LB Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:06 pm

Yuji wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:47 pm
For those who think Broly is stronger than Jiren, which form do you consider Broly to have surpassed him? Freeza says in the novelization that Broly is the strongest while fighting him in his Super Saiyan form, before he transforms into his full-power green-haired form. If you consider Broly stronger in his regular SS state, what's the difference between his SS and his full power SS forms?
I don't think he surpassed Jiren, who outlasted UI while Broly couldn't even touch Gogeta, but if he did, then it was only with his FPSS. I doubt Freeza could take a beating for an hour without dropping out of his golden form against a UI level character. I also don't think two SSB could fight shirtless Jiren like they fought SS Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:23 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:06 pm
Yuji wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:47 pm
For those who think Broly is stronger than Jiren, which form do you consider Broly to have surpassed him? Freeza says in the novelization that Broly is the strongest while fighting him in his Super Saiyan form, before he transforms into his full-power green-haired form. If you consider Broly stronger in his regular SS state, what's the difference between his SS and his full power SS forms?
I don't think he surpassed Jiren, who outlasted UI while Broly couldn't even touch Gogeta, but if he did, then it was only with his FPSS. I doubt Freeza could take a beating for an hour without dropping out of his golden form against a UI level character. I also don't think two SSB could fight shirtless Jiren like they fought SS Broly.
How did they fight against him? They punched him and it did nothing, and Broly slapped their attacks and made them run for about 60% of the fight. It was a stomping

And Frieza surviving Broly is PIS for Fusion to run it's gags, no different then Base Vegeta surviving Jiren punches

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:04 am

Yuji wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:47 pm
For those who think Broly is stronger than Jiren, which form do you consider Broly to have surpassed him? Freeza says in the novelization that Broly is the strongest while fighting him in his Super Saiyan form, before he transforms into his full-power green-haired form. If you consider Broly stronger in his regular SS state, what's the difference between his SS and his full power SS forms?
Green haired Broly is tens of thousands of times stronger than Jiren (possibly far more) considering his Super Saiyan 1 state is already superior to Jiren thanks to Frieza’s statements and Goku and Vegeta immediately checkening out AND fusing on top of that.

I would have thought this was OBVIOUS guys!

Why even have this debate still???

Jiren is trash, has been trash ever since the Broly movie came out, and is never going to be relevant again until he gets a powerup. Why do people keep clinging so much on this outdated brute? He’s nothing now. A total joke. Even Prime Moro can beat him a thousand times over.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:00 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:04 am
Green haired Broly is tens of thousands of times stronger than Jiren (possibly far more) considering his Super Saiyan 1 state is already superior to Jiren thanks to Frieza’s statements and Goku and Vegeta immediately checkening out AND fusing on top of that.
How did you quantify that :?

From an anime perspective you got someone who compares to the collective of Gods of Destruction and someone who compares to one of the stronger gods of destruction. To imply that there is a huge difference between then sounds weird, especially when we see that the power of GoDs ranges from that GoD Toppo tier (Blue tier+ for candidates) and does not seem to surpass 3rd Omen.

Applying the common DB logic to this (twice as strong means stomp): Blue KK×20 - > Omen at least twice as strong (3rd Omen obviously reaching completion exerted more power than normal to push Full Power Jiren) - > MUI at least twice as strong (Goku grew permanently stronger in the form, as post rage boost Jiren could not touch him).

I don't see this scale going beyond 300 times the power of Blue. Dunno why people still come up with thousands of times stronger. Manga is a different story, we never get that Kaio Ken numbers to form a conclusion. So it hints at the three individuals in the face of Broly, Jiren and Prime Moro, to be GoD tier threats who get downed easily by MUI.
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:23 pm

How did they fight against him? They punched him and it did nothing, and Broly slapped their attacks and made them run for about 60% of the fight. It was a stomping

And Frieza surviving Broly is PIS for Fusion to run it's gags, no different then Base Vegeta surviving Jiren punches
Gotta take into account a couple of things. Not only did Blue Goku survive and countered initial SS Broly's rampage, but Vegeta suggested that the 2 of them might have a chance. Their attacks land, Broly staggers to their strikes and bursts in fury to counter them by overwhelming them.

Only issue was Broly growing stronger, therefore they would need something more than Blue (and ofc we didn't have Kaio Ken and Evolution here). Goku can't access MUI so it's only normal they perform fusion.

Also remember, in the ToP no one is allowed to kill, so it makes sense for even Killin to tank Jiren. A fatigued Vegeta got a couple of punches from Jiren and got crippled.

Basically, what I mean to say is why did Goku make a comparison to Beerus in the first place (anime) and not Jiren for Broly, since Beerus in the anime is not vaguely depicted as the strongest GoD, rather his power seems to cap around 3rd Omen tier based on his reactions. He is basically in the same ballpark, but he is most likely below Jiren and probably below Broly.

Ofc for Moro its just that narratively he fits this tier of power. For example 7-Moro-3 is the one explicitly put above Jiren and Broly. That's facts.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:53 pm

We can tell by how much Goku compliments Jiren that he was the strongest he has fought so far, until he met Moro. With Broly, we don’t see that certainty. I would say Broly may be equal to Jiren, if not slightly weaker.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:22 am

When Yamcha refers to himself as the third strongest Earthling, should we take it that he's referring to Kuririn and Tenshinhan? Where does that leave Kame-sennin and his instinctual movement?

Also, for those who believe Tenshinhan is the strongest human, it seems like Toyotarou may have hinted the same, as chapter #66 implies it shortly after Moro's defeat:
By the time Kuririn gets out of the debris, Piccolo and Vegeta are in the sky, Tenshinhan is already out helping Chaozu, and Yamcha was only then getting out. This seems to establish a hierarchy between these characters. Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, and lastly Chaozu who needed help.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:51 am

Why is Uub constantly ignored in these "Strongest earthling" debates? Does being a reincarnated Buu somehow strip him of his earthliness?

Even before 'Super' he could could go toe to toe with base Goku who by that point was arguably as strong as SSJ3

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:51 am
Why is Uub constantly ignored in these "Strongest earthling" debates? Does being a reincarnated Buu somehow strip him of his earthliness?

Even before 'Super' he could could go toe to toe with base Goku who by that point was arguably as strong as SSJ3
Because he's clearly the strongest, but nobody knows who he is in-universe, so any statements made regarding the strength of the Earthlings never takes Oob into account until explicitly stated. Unless you want to be pedantic, there's nothing to gain from comparing him to the other humans. He's just so far above them that any comparison Oob is involved in should be with the upper Super Saiyan levels at the very least.

When Yamcha says "I'm the third strongest Earthling" he's not saying "I'm third to Kuririn/Tenshinhan and Oob," he's saying "I'm third to Kuririn and Tenshinhan." When Toriyama says Kuririn is "the strongest among the Earthlings," he's clearly not thinking about Oob. If we were to be precise, we'd also have to include #17 and #18 in these human/Earthling debates, as well as any Earth-born half-Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:45 pm

I felt Yamcha was confirming the hierarchy established in Z.
It could be possible Yamcha is unaware of the bootleg UI Roshi showed in the ToP, but more important to me is the fact that said technique does not make Roshi stronger, but better at fighting.
Yamcha's PL at his peak was in the thousands (Z filler had him in the 40,000s in the Namek arc), Android 19 mistakenly thought Yamcha was Goku, so if Yamcha is anywhere close to his Cell saga PL, then I think he should be stronger than whatever Roshi accomplished on his own. I doubt Roshi could clock in the thousands on a scouter, but he still can take out someone who does.
So Roshi might defeat Yamcha while being weaker than he is, and Yamcha is just telling the side of the story that works better for him, which happens to be true.

And Uub is ignored because nobody knows about him and he probably isn't currently as strong as he will be by EoZ. Maybe what happened in the Moro arc is what starts making him train harder.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Devilman21/ » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:40 pm

Yuji wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:22 am
When Yamcha refers to himself as the third strongest Earthling, should we take it that he's referring to Kuririn and Tenshinhan? Where does that leave Kame-sennin and his instinctual movement?

Also, for those who believe Tenshinhan is the strongest human, it seems like Toyotarou may have hinted the same, as chapter #66 implies it shortly after Moro's defeat:
By the time Kuririn gets out of the debris, Piccolo and Vegeta are in the sky, Tenshinhan is already out helping Chaozu, and Yamcha was only then getting out. This seems to establish a hierarchy between these characters. Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, and lastly Chaozu who needed help.
Hmm. I personally think this is reading too much into the scene but maybe? Tenshinhan being the strongest makes sense with all that training he does, but I feel like Toriyama is dead set on Kuririn being the strongest earthing ( sans Oob) and I feel like Toyo would want to respect that. Plus I really don't like the idea of Kami-sennin being stronger than any of his former students or the younger generation as I feel it goes against the original intention of the story. So imo it goes: Kuririn >>Tenshinhan >>> Yamcha >> Kami-sennin. Chaozu is a difficult one. I feel like he *should* be stronger than Kami-sennin but also he seems to have really fallen behind and Kami-sennin seems to have gotten absurdly stronger and replaced him as an active warrior. So I could really go either way. But I am open to being wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:15 am

shadd21 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:38 am
What are the odds, this “Strongest Warrior in the Universe” will somehow still be weaker than Beerus?
Almost 100% sure of that.

Beerus >>>>> All.

Broly >>>>> All.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:13 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:00 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:04 am
Green haired Broly is tens of thousands of times stronger than Jiren (possibly far more) considering his Super Saiyan 1 state is already superior to Jiren thanks to Frieza’s statements and Goku and Vegeta immediately checkening out AND fusing on top of that.
How did you quantify that :?

From an anime perspective you got someone who compares to the collective of Gods of Destruction and someone who compares to one of the stronger gods of destruction. To imply that there is a huge difference between then sounds weird, especially when we see that the power of GoDs ranges from that GoD Toppo tier (Blue tier+ for candidates) and does not seem to surpass 3rd Omen.

Applying the common DB logic to this (twice as strong means stomp): Blue KK×20 - > Omen at least twice as strong (3rd Omen obviously reaching completion exerted more power than normal to push Full Power Jiren) - > MUI at least twice as strong (Goku grew permanently stronger in the form, as post rage boost Jiren could not touch him).

I don't see this scale going beyond 300 times the power of Blue. Dunno why people still come up with thousands of times stronger. Manga is a different story, we never get that Kaio Ken numbers to form a conclusion. So it hints at the three individuals in the face of Broly, Jiren and Prime Moro, to be GoD tier threats who get downed easily by MUI.
FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:23 pm

How did they fight against him? They punched him and it did nothing, and Broly slapped their attacks and made them run for about 60% of the fight. It was a stomping

And Frieza surviving Broly is PIS for Fusion to run it's gags, no different then Base Vegeta surviving Jiren punches
Gotta take into account a couple of things. Not only did Blue Goku survive and countered initial SS Broly's rampage, but Vegeta suggested that the 2 of them might have a chance. Their attacks land, Broly staggers to their strikes and bursts in fury to counter them by overwhelming them.

Only issue was Broly growing stronger, therefore they would need something more than Blue (and ofc we didn't have Kaio Ken and Evolution here). Goku can't access MUI so it's only normal they perform fusion.

Also remember, in the ToP no one is allowed to kill, so it makes sense for even Killin to tank Jiren. A fatigued Vegeta got a couple of punches from Jiren and got crippled.

Basically, what I mean to say is why did Goku make a comparison to Beerus in the first place (anime) and not Jiren for Broly, since Beerus in the anime is not vaguely depicted as the strongest GoD, rather his power seems to cap around 3rd Omen tier based on his reactions. He is basically in the same ballpark, but he is most likely below Jiren and probably below Broly.

Ofc for Moro its just that narratively he fits this tier of power. For example 7-Moro-3 is the one explicitly put above Jiren and Broly. That's facts.
Your overblowing Goku and Vegeta big time, dodging Broly attack and surviving it means nothing, they did far worse to Jiren and other foes in comparison to Broly, and going further all they did is budge Broly by attacking both at the same time in his back, which isn't impressive, considering they sent guys like 127 Jiren flying all over the ToP.

And not being able to kill isn't an excuse for Jiren being unable to knock out Base Vegeta, Jiren had far worse moments tbf. Jiren and UI Goku in the anime aren't pushing anything either, cause Broly is considered the strongest and the mightest so many times over, not Jiren or UI Goku, and considering how they still push Beerus to be a big deal now, Broly being Beerus level yet called the strongest just pushes Beerus > Goku and Jiren, not the other way around. And being called tough doesn't put either Moro > Broly either

In the end, as usual, it all depends on Beerus.

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