Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:26 pm

Sure, there is a lot of hype around Broly during the period of movie, with comments about being strongest here and there, but in the actual movie, I have never found the part in which Goku or Freeza imply Broly was stronger than Jiren. If it’s not too hard work for you, I’d like to see it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:26 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:26 pm
Sure, there is a lot of hype around Broly during the period of movie, with comments about being strongest here and there, but in the actual movie, I have never found the part in which Goku or Freeza imply Broly was stronger than Jiren. If it’s not too hard work for you, I’d like to see it.
You probably won't. Cause no comparison exists. And yet people still ocme off as factual. :crazy:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:08 pm

Despite V-Jump editors [The serialization that DBS is in] stating that Broly is the "strongest enemy ever;" Which fits exactly with Toriyama's canonical plot for Dragonball/Super; where he said his story never takes a step back with a current enemy being weaker than the previous. Always progressing the power level chart. You guys are still not satisfied with such authoritarian facts.

You guys are right, there are no direct comparisons between Broly and Jiren in the movie. However, we do have implications; with the fact that overshadowing praise was made for Broly over Jiren. Universe 11's strongest received adulation before Goku faced Broly. Then Jiren was forgotten about and not even brought up anymore when the strongest Broly showed his power level.

Freeza knew about UI Goku and Jiren, yet he still threw Broly at Goku, after seeing his "yet un-tapped battle power" inside of him. While Broly was in Super Saiyan, Freeza lauded Broly even more.

Goku and Vegeta stated fusion was the only way of beating Broly. Which Freeza said is unfair. No one ever said that about UI Goku or Jiren's power! We all know about Broly beign so strong that he was guessed to be stronger than Beerus. This is Goku's benchmark BTW. Where Jiren was only stronger than a god weaker than Beerus in Belmond. A throw away character. Finally, Freeza states WHY Broly would be the best combatant. It's not that he needs more power but has to harness his mind in order to release his power under control.

So while there is no direct comparison between Jiren and Broly, there is indirect evidence that Broly's strength has made everyone forget about Jiren . This is what it means when the current strongest shows up and usurps attention from the last strongest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:11 pm

I find it a little silly for people to argue that there's no ambiguity when it comes to the last 3 antagonists' power, while still personally believing myself that Moro > Broly > Jiren (but that they were in the same tier before Moro copied Merus' power).

Normally, when a strong enemy comes along, the story shows their strength by having them beat the same technique that beat the last antagonist. E.g, Goku as a super saiyan beat Freeza, then Android 18 beats a super saiyan Vegeta explicitly said to be stronger than Goku. Gohan beats Cell as a super saiyan 2, then Boo beats a super saiyan 2 Vegeta said to be stronger than Gohan back when he beat Cell.

Then with super it gets murky. Speaking only of the manga: fused Zamasu is shown to be roughly equal to completed ssb Goku, then in the next arc comes along Jiren who is no contest stronger than Goku. Jiren is therefore stronger than Zamasu. But the in the next story, there is an ambiguity. SSB once again completely fails to beat the opponent, but Goku doesn't even attempt to use the technique he used last time to weaken Jiren. Fusion is their only option as Goku can't use ultra instinct or even sign. Both Broly and Jiren are in a tier where something besides super saiyan blue is necessary, but the paths taken are completely different with a big ambiguity as to what one is more effective.

They then repeat that same ambiguity with Moro as he doesn't face a blue fusion like the last antagonist. He is instead back to fighting ultra instinct and sign like Jiren, but now ultra instinct utterly dominates Moro much more than it did against Jiren. Now of course Goku did some training beforehand and is stronger than ever, but the waters are murky as hell. Of course him copying Merus made him unambiguously stronger than Jiren for a time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:38 pm

I particularly have no problem with using V-Jump or Toriyama’s impressions as something to back up an opinion. It’s totally welcome. But, let’s be honest, the work itself is not clear enough with this matter.

Toriyama himself admits he has problems with coming up with characters always stronger. When he finished Beerus, he was almost saying he couldn’t create someone stronger and that it was such a pain. So, we have been presented with a noticeable number of characters that fit between Beerus and Super Saiyan God’s first debut.

I’m not saying that Jiren should have a similar treatment, but if Toriyama really wanted Broly to look stronger than Jiren without explicitly writing that out, he could have used subtext. For example, Gogeta using Ultra Instinct or Goku saying that a fusion of two Super Saiyan Blue is far more effective than Ultra Instinct. Or even a more unambiguous line like “this guy’s battle power is unmatched” or “he is the toughest guy I ever met”. We don’t have any of that.

Instead, Goku only adds Broly to the long list of characters that are stronger than him. Granted, he places Broly above a God of Destruction (Jiren is also on that list). Freeza is marveled by Broly’s battle power, but he made very clear that Broly needed to control himself to be the mightiest combatant, which should make a significant difference in comparison with what he showed until now. This is reinforced by Goku offering his knowledge to complement Broly’s techniques.

So, in my honest opinion, Broly is still a work-in-progress. He has untapped potential that definitely makes him a strong contender to the role of strongest, but he still lacks what other characters have in abundance, which is self control and skill.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:58 pm

I think a "phased battle power" structuring of DBS's antagonists works for me, personally.

Golden Freeza, Hit, Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black, Toppo, and (initial) Merged Zamasu? Around the level of SSB with some minor differences in escalation as they went along.

(Anime-only) Giant Corrupt Merged Zamasu, Jiren, Super Saiyan Full-Power Broly, and 7-3 Moro? Around the level above God of Destruction with minor differences in escalation as they went along.

So, in essence, the first 3 main antagonists capped around the same level as Goku and Vegeta, while the following 3 went far above into the realm of God of Destruction.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:03 pm

I think it's pretty clear the narrative is setting tiers of fighters and not the typical Z clear cut rankings.
The SSB tier where Freeza, Hit (not with strenght but with abilities), Zamasu, and Toppo are, where none of them is clearly stronger than the other, and when they are brought back (Hit, Freeza) where they stand next to each other remains unclear.

And the GoD tier with, what I think is conscious ambiguity for Jiren, Broly, UI, blue fusions (and Beerus unless they retcon him in this arc which seems to be the case), and Moro with him and UI being the exceptions. Jiren required for "A", Broly for "B" with no real comparisons between A and B, while Moro for an improved "A" implied to be above B, as well.
There's definitely nobody thousands of times stronger than the other, though. The narrative at the very least implies that, if only that.

DBS moved on from the stronger always wins from Z and GT. RoF Freeza was stronger and lost, Hit was weaker and beat Vegeta and "almost" rings out Jiren, Goku was weaker and trashed Jiren, Roshi was weaker and rocked the ToP, Moro was weaker but had magic. DBS introduced more than just muscles and battle power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:45 am

Depends on the medium really. In the anime, Fused Zamasu, Kefla, and Toppo could all be considered part of the GoD tier.

You can even highball Golden Frieza to GoD tier, given how he withstood Sidra's Hakai orb.

Which is why it'll be interesting to see Toei's version of the Moro arc. Since in the anime it was made clear that Ultra Instinct > Jiren > Belmod > Beerus (as Belmod beat Beerus in an arm-wrestling match), yet in the Moro arc Beerus is confident he could help against Moro, who was on the level of post-ToP UI Goku.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:19 pm

Until something is said specifically it will always be up in the air on how Broly, Jiren, Beerus and Moro compare.

I don't put much stock at all into any of the generic hype lines in promotional magazines anyway.

Broly is meant to be a bit stronger than Beerus as far as Goku knows. Though apparently Beerus has some other technique that's possibly equivalent to Ultra Instinct which Goku of course doesn't know about so most likely Beerus is stronger than Broly.

Could very simply be a case of Beerus with his technique being superior to Broly, Jiren and Moro and without it he's weaker.

Moro should be stronger than Jiren and most likely Broly too even though there wasn't as much of a direct comparison there.

Jiren and Broly is up in the air but Jiren did put up a fight against Ultra Instinct where Broly didn't with Blue Fusion and Ultra Instinct has been made out to be the supreme thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:44 am

Personally. I'd put time cage Hit above SSB level. The fact he was able to dent Jiren and trap him is impressive. I've seen some people use Jiren holding back as a way to downplay but even that version of Jiren was still hilariously above SSB level
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:46 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:44 am
Personally. I'd put time cage Hit above SSB level. The fact he was able to dent Jiren and trap him is impressive. I've seen some people use Jiren holding back as a way to downplay but even that version of Jiren was still hilariously above SSB level
By early ToP standards Time Cage > SSB KKx20 Goku. Jiren had to exert plenty of effort to get out of it and was still unable to until the last second. By End of ToP, I still place the time cage above KKx10 Blue. But x20 plus tier is enough to burst out of it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:06 am

Miracles wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:08 pm
Despite V-Jump editors [The serialization that DBS is in] stating that Broly is the "strongest enemy ever;" Which fits exactly with Toriyama's canonical plot for Dragonball/Super; where he said his story never takes a step back with a current enemy being weaker than the previous. Always progressing the power level chart. You guys are still not satisfied with such authoritarian facts.

You guys are right, there are no direct comparisons between Broly and Jiren in the movie. However, we do have implications; with the fact that overshadowing praise was made for Broly over Jiren. Universe 11's strongest received adulation before Goku faced Broly. Then Jiren was forgotten about and not even brought up anymore when the strongest Broly showed his power level.

Freeza knew about UI Goku and Jiren, yet he still threw Broly at Goku, after seeing his "yet un-tapped battle power" inside of him. While Broly was in Super Saiyan, Freeza lauded Broly even more.

Goku and Vegeta stated fusion was the only way of beating Broly. Which Freeza said is unfair. No one ever said that about UI Goku or Jiren's power! We all know about Broly beign so strong that he was guessed to be stronger than Beerus. This is Goku's benchmark BTW. Where Jiren was only stronger than a god weaker than Beerus in Belmond. A throw away character. Finally, Freeza states WHY Broly would be the best combatant. It's not that he needs more power but has to harness his mind in order to release his power under control.

So while there is no direct comparison between Jiren and Broly, there is indirect evidence that Broly's strength has made everyone forget about Jiren . This is what it means when the current strongest shows up and usurps attention from the last strongest.
I fully agree with you!

Broly > Moro Merus.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:09 am

Time Cage was undoubtedly a greater feat than KKx20.

It didn't had Jiren to flare his aura, but it was arguably the most effort Jiren did show until the 3rd Omen.
And a big part of Jiren's style was defeating his opponent's best moves "effortlessly"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:21 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:19 pm
Until something is said specifically it will always be up in the air on how Broly, Jiren, Beerus and Moro compare.

I don't put much stock at all into any of the generic hype lines in promotional magazines anyway.

Broly is meant to be a bit stronger than Beerus as far as Goku knows. Though apparently Beerus has some other technique that's possibly equivalent to Ultra Instinct which Goku of course doesn't know about so most likely Beerus is stronger than Broly.

Could very simply be a case of Beerus with his technique being superior to Broly, Jiren and Moro and without it he's weaker.

Moro should be stronger than Jiren and most likely Broly too even though there wasn't as much of a direct comparison there.

Jiren and Broly is up in the air but Jiren did put up a fight against Ultra Instinct where Broly didn't with Blue Fusion and Ultra Instinct has been made out to be the supreme thing.
Broly Vs Jiren is NOT up in the air at all. How can you still say that after all the evidence and time??? Broly has been 100% confirmed stronger than Jiren.. (And so has Moro Merus!)

The only thing that is “debatable” is wether Prime Moro and Moro 73 are above Jiren..

(Now I personally believe they are, but I can’t objectively prove it unfortunately.) It’s my headcanon. But it makes sense.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:23 pm

It's never at any point been confirmed that's why it's still talked about and has such divided opinions even 2+ years on.

You could make an argument for either of the two being superior.

Even base Jiren could be argued to be above Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:35 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:06 am
Miracles wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:08 pm
Despite V-Jump editors [The serialization that DBS is in] stating that Broly is the "strongest enemy ever;" Which fits exactly with Toriyama's canonical plot for Dragonball/Super; where he said his story never takes a step back with a current enemy being weaker than the previous. Always progressing the power level chart. You guys are still not satisfied with such authoritarian facts.

You guys are right, there are no direct comparisons between Broly and Jiren in the movie. However, we do have implications; with the fact that overshadowing praise was made for Broly over Jiren. Universe 11's strongest received adulation before Goku faced Broly. Then Jiren was forgotten about and not even brought up anymore when the strongest Broly showed his power level.

Freeza knew about UI Goku and Jiren, yet he still threw Broly at Goku, after seeing his "yet un-tapped battle power" inside of him. While Broly was in Super Saiyan, Freeza lauded Broly even more.

Goku and Vegeta stated fusion was the only way of beating Broly. Which Freeza said is unfair. No one ever said that about UI Goku or Jiren's power! We all know about Broly beign so strong that he was guessed to be stronger than Beerus. This is Goku's benchmark BTW. Where Jiren was only stronger than a god weaker than Beerus in Belmond. A throw away character. Finally, Freeza states WHY Broly would be the best combatant. It's not that he needs more power but has to harness his mind in order to release his power under control.

So while there is no direct comparison between Jiren and Broly, there is indirect evidence that Broly's strength has made everyone forget about Jiren . This is what it means when the current strongest shows up and usurps attention from the last strongest.
I fully agree with you!

Broly > Moro Merus.
That's factually incorrect. Toriyama says he does not take a step back. That he will not let anyone tell him the current enemy is weaker than the last.

Moro > Broly > Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:43 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:35 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:06 am
Miracles wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:08 pm
Despite V-Jump editors [The serialization that DBS is in] stating that Broly is the "strongest enemy ever;" Which fits exactly with Toriyama's canonical plot for Dragonball/Super; where he said his story never takes a step back with a current enemy being weaker than the previous. Always progressing the power level chart. You guys are still not satisfied with such authoritarian facts.

You guys are right, there are no direct comparisons between Broly and Jiren in the movie. However, we do have implications; with the fact that overshadowing praise was made for Broly over Jiren. Universe 11's strongest received adulation before Goku faced Broly. Then Jiren was forgotten about and not even brought up anymore when the strongest Broly showed his power level.

Freeza knew about UI Goku and Jiren, yet he still threw Broly at Goku, after seeing his "yet un-tapped battle power" inside of him. While Broly was in Super Saiyan, Freeza lauded Broly even more.

Goku and Vegeta stated fusion was the only way of beating Broly. Which Freeza said is unfair. No one ever said that about UI Goku or Jiren's power! We all know about Broly beign so strong that he was guessed to be stronger than Beerus. This is Goku's benchmark BTW. Where Jiren was only stronger than a god weaker than Beerus in Belmond. A throw away character. Finally, Freeza states WHY Broly would be the best combatant. It's not that he needs more power but has to harness his mind in order to release his power under control.

So while there is no direct comparison between Jiren and Broly, there is indirect evidence that Broly's strength has made everyone forget about Jiren . This is what it means when the current strongest shows up and usurps attention from the last strongest.
I fully agree with you!

Broly > Moro Merus.
That's factually incorrect. Toriyama says he does not take a step back. That he will not let anyone tell him the current enemy is weaker than the last.

Moro > Broly > Jiren.
Then why is Broly compared to Lord Beerus while Moro Merus and UI Goku aren’t??? Why was Broly able to force a post ToP Gogeta to go SSJ Blue (and perfected SSJ Blue in the manga)??? Why was a Blue Vegito also the only one compared to Beerus, and the singular warriors who utilize UI aren’t??? Remember that Base Vegito and Base Gogeta are already stronger than Perfected SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta based on feats.

I agree with you that normally it is the norm that next enemies are stronger than the last... But NOT when Fusions are involved.. Only Merged Zamasu is exempt from this rule because he is IMMORTAL. Broly isn’t, so that guy is based entirely on pure physical strength.

Fusions of earlier arcs are allowed to still be stronger than the top dogs of later arcs..

The facts are as followed:

Only Blue Fusion level characters have been compared to Beerus in any way..

This includes Broly and Vegito Blue from the Zamasu Arc. And naturally the far superior Gogeta from the Broly movie..

Now you can try to argue against it by questioning it, but you have to remember that evidence is not in your favor when doing that. Evidence (by the writers themselves) IS in favor of Broly and the Blue Fusions being in the realm of Lord Beerus. Again, if you question that, then you are questioning the very work and statements of the writers themselves! Which does not neccesarily make your argument look good..

That is all.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:48 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:43 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:35 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:06 am

I fully agree with you!

Broly > Moro Merus.
That's factually incorrect. Toriyama says he does not take a step back. That he will not let anyone tell him the current enemy is weaker than the last.

Moro > Broly > Jiren.
Then why is Broly compared to Lord Beerus while Moro Merus and UI Goku aren’t??? Why was Broly able to force a post ToP Gogeta to go SSJ Blue (and perfected SSJ Blue in the manga)??? Why was a Blue Vegito also the only one compared to Beerus, and the singular warriors who utilize UI aren’t??? Remember that Base Vegito and Base Gogeta are already stronger than Perfected SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta based on feats.

I agree with you that normally it is the norm that next enemies are stronger than the last... But NOT when Fusions are involved.. Only Merged Zamasu is exempt from this rule because he is IMMORTAL. Broly isn’t, so that guy is based entirely on pure physical strength.

Fusions of earlier arcs are allowed to still be stronger than the top dogs of later arcs..

The facts are as followed:

Only Blue Fusion level characters have been compared to Beerus in any way..

This includes Broly and Vegito Blue from the Zamasu Arc. And naturally the far superior Gogeta from the Broly movie..

Now you can try to argue against it by questioning it, but you have to remember that evidence is not in your favor when doing that. Evidence (by the writers themselves) IS in favor of Broly and the Blue Fusions being in the realm of Lord Beerus. Again, if you question that, then you are questioning the very work and statements of the writers themselves! Which does not neccesarily make your argument look good..

That is all.
Broly's comparison was only a GUESS not a fact. That's why the story moved the ladder in power level, stating Moro and Granolah are stronger than Broly. Goku was proven wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:23 pm

Not to mention Goku doesn’t know the technique Beerus talked about in the last chapter, so he doesn’t have the whole picture anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:42 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:48 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:43 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:35 pm


That's factually incorrect. Toriyama says he does not take a step back. That he will not let anyone tell him the current enemy is weaker than the last.

Moro > Broly > Jiren.
Then why is Broly compared to Lord Beerus while Moro Merus and UI Goku aren’t??? Why was Broly able to force a post ToP Gogeta to go SSJ Blue (and perfected SSJ Blue in the manga)??? Why was a Blue Vegito also the only one compared to Beerus, and the singular warriors who utilize UI aren’t??? Remember that Base Vegito and Base Gogeta are already stronger than Perfected SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta based on feats.

I agree with you that normally it is the norm that next enemies are stronger than the last... But NOT when Fusions are involved.. Only Merged Zamasu is exempt from this rule because he is IMMORTAL. Broly isn’t, so that guy is based entirely on pure physical strength.

Fusions of earlier arcs are allowed to still be stronger than the top dogs of later arcs..

The facts are as followed:

Only Blue Fusion level characters have been compared to Beerus in any way..

This includes Broly and Vegito Blue from the Zamasu Arc. And naturally the far superior Gogeta from the Broly movie..

Now you can try to argue against it by questioning it, but you have to remember that evidence is not in your favor when doing that. Evidence (by the writers themselves) IS in favor of Broly and the Blue Fusions being in the realm of Lord Beerus. Again, if you question that, then you are questioning the very work and statements of the writers themselves! Which does not neccesarily make your argument look good..

That is all.
Broly's comparison was only a GUESS not a fact. That's why the story moved the ladder in power level, stating Moro and Granolah are stronger than Broly. Goku was proven wrong.
It’s not a guess when the word “PROBABLY” is involved...

Probably is another word for (highly likely!)....

In Vegito Blue’s case it was indeed more of a guess by Shin... (who’s a not so reliable character afterall), He was asking: “Vegito Blue.. Could he already be stronger than Lord Beerus....?!”

But not in Broly’s case!

Still, even for that Vegito Blue.. A comparison was made at least!

And I can’t say the same for UI Goku and Moro Merus..

And don’t you think it’s a big coincidence that only Blue Fusion Level characters are compared to Beerus???

You seem to be very strongly in denial about this one it turns out..
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