Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:09 am

jd55513 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:52 am
My take on the Beerus being better than Goku, Vegeta, Jiren and Moro:

The paradigm of Dragon Ball has shifted from brute strength to techniques correct?
All of the training Goku and Vegeta has done in Super has been to prevent their ki from leaking correct? Why is that? Because power is condensed and concentrated.
Look at some of the feats Beerus has done as early as the first couple episodes. He has flicked a SSj3 Goku, Tapped a planet in half with his fingers, sneezed a planet away on accident and obviously has Hakai.
The first point I'm making is up to the current arc, would you not agree that Beerus still has greater Ki control than Goku, Vegeta and Jiren?
In a fight, if you sustain a appreciable amount of damage, you lose ki, keep this in mind.
Ultra Instinct is a state of mind that again is based on the current level of power as the individual.
Ultra Instinct has NOT been mastered based on the current chapters, and the fact that Goku has not mastered the ki control of Ultra Instinct.
This is important because Beerus base strength is still far greater than Goku is, In the current arc
When Goku mastered SSJ and then in Super, learned Blue, was it already mastered? No, it wasn’t. The same can be applied to Ultra Instinct:

In regards to Ultra Instance and its proposed mastery, Goku mastered tapping into it! Goku mastered is the principles in which allow him to tap into Ultra Instinct, and not that he has honed Ultra Instinct to the utmost of its ability as a technique, just see Whis recent comments of UI Goku….
That's why it's marketed as "Mastered" or "Completed" because Ultra Instinct, as Merus said, is HAVING SELF-CONTROL in the face of jarring shock to your emotions.
Goku has MASTERED having self-control. He just needs to HONE his instincts, and find a fighting style unique only to him and his bodies motion with Ultra Instinct.
Incorrect, it has everything to do with each form. If your energy leaks out as heat and vapor, you lose physical strength, which Goku understood
In regards to Ki control, as manifested through all of the transformations we have see: The large amount of Ki present in a particular form could affect your ability to effectively control it. SSJ3 being a prime example. Each form affects the body differently until the drawbacks it has are addressed and corrected.
The issue is, Goku and Vegeta's bodies were not strong enough to withstand that much power from leaking at the time, hence why they had ki auras while in Super Saiyan Blue, which is why Blue was always displayed poorly against villains in early DB Super
Getting back to my argument, Goku has not mastered ki control on his complete ultra instinct state, this is a problem, because he loses strength as the battle passes. Beerus in his character we have seen, has better ki control.
Beerus base strength is greater than current Goku's base strength correct, including the blue Kaioken x20 multipler correct?
If you agree it that, Goku's only option would be compete ultra instinct, which would be formidable to Beerus, however that's where ki control comes into play
We now know that hakai is a state of mind with tiers and different abilities like Ultra Instinct, so based on that scaling and the feat we just saw with Vegetas armor being hakai, I would argue that Beerus in his hakai mode would easily crush goku, if he caught him, which he would, since goku would eventually lose his strength and speed as we have seen against Jiren and Moro
Again, based on ki control, the current paradigm of power
I believe he tapped out of it, against planet Moro, because he hasn't perfected UI in regards to ki control, meaning he constantly radiates wasted energy as heat and vapor
The form hasn't been mastered in regard to ki control, yes Goku has trained his body to now wield it without strain
And why do you think he got caught against Planet Moro (besides the energy absorption, which we don’t know if Moro was using it earlier in the battle)? because he was losing speed and power, based on the lack of ki control.
The way I see Dragon Ball is with some basic thermodynamics, I view the character as heat engines, and apply the concept of stored energy, work, power and efficiency(in this analogy, this would be the “ki control”)
In physics whether, mechanical or biological, you lose energy based on physical conditions and efficiency(energy is lost by conversion due to heat primarily)
The character in dragon ball can be modeled simply based on that analogy.
Beerus has displayed far greater feats of ki control and seemingly now, has a technique, similar to Ultra Instinct, but for Gods of Destruction.
Hmmmm. I actually have a different belief as to how powerful 100% Full Power Base Beerus actually is.. (without any Hakai energy!) I believe Beerus’ regular full power may be equal to Goku or Vegeta’s regular full power.. (without any Hakai energy ofcourse!) And he could equal either full power Perfected SSJ Blue Goku, or... Goku’s BASE form if you really understand my theory...

If this confuses you.. Please have a look at my thread about exactly this topic! It explains everything how I think about this..

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=45512
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:14 am

jd55513 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:52 am
My take on the Beerus being better than Goku, Vegeta, Jiren and Moro:

The paradigm of Dragon Ball has shifted from brute strength to techniques correct?
All of the training Goku and Vegeta has done in Super has been to prevent their ki from leaking correct? Why is that? Because power is condensed and concentrated.
Look at some of the feats Beerus has done as early as the first couple episodes. He has flicked a SSj3 Goku, Tapped a planet in half with his fingers, sneezed a planet away on accident and obviously has Hakai.
The first point I'm making is up to the current arc, would you not agree that Beerus still has greater Ki control than Goku, Vegeta and Jiren?
In a fight, if you sustain a appreciable amount of damage, you lose ki, keep this in mind.
Ultra Instinct is a state of mind that again is based on the current level of power as the individual.
Ultra Instinct has NOT been mastered based on the current chapters, and the fact that Goku has not mastered the ki control of Ultra Instinct.
This is important because Beerus base strength is still far greater than Goku is, In the current arc
When Goku mastered SSJ and then in Super, learned Blue, was it already mastered? No, it wasn’t. The same can be applied to Ultra Instinct:

In regards to Ultra Instance and its proposed mastery, Goku mastered tapping into it! Goku mastered is the principles in which allow him to tap into Ultra Instinct, and not that he has honed Ultra Instinct to the utmost of its ability as a technique, just see Whis recent comments of UI Goku….
That's why it's marketed as "Mastered" or "Completed" because Ultra Instinct, as Merus said, is HAVING SELF-CONTROL in the face of jarring shock to your emotions.
Goku has MASTERED having self-control. He just needs to HONE his instincts, and find a fighting style unique only to him and his bodies motion with Ultra Instinct.
Incorrect, it has everything to do with each form. If your energy leaks out as heat and vapor, you lose physical strength, which Goku understood
In regards to Ki control, as manifested through all of the transformations we have see: The large amount of Ki present in a particular form could affect your ability to effectively control it. SSJ3 being a prime example. Each form affects the body differently until the drawbacks it has are addressed and corrected.
The issue is, Goku and Vegeta's bodies were not strong enough to withstand that much power from leaking at the time, hence why they had ki auras while in Super Saiyan Blue, which is why Blue was always displayed poorly against villains in early DB Super
Getting back to my argument, Goku has not mastered ki control on his complete ultra instinct state, this is a problem, because he loses strength as the battle passes. Beerus in his character we have seen, has better ki control.
Beerus base strength is greater than current Goku's base strength correct, including the blue Kaioken x20 multipler correct?
If you agree it that, Goku's only option would be compete ultra instinct, which would be formidable to Beerus, however that's where ki control comes into play
We now know that hakai is a state of mind with tiers and different abilities like Ultra Instinct, so based on that scaling and the feat we just saw with Vegetas armor being hakai, I would argue that Beerus in his hakai mode would easily crush goku, if he caught him, which he would, since goku would eventually lose his strength and speed as we have seen against Jiren and Moro
Again, based on ki control, the current paradigm of power
I believe he tapped out of it, against planet Moro, because he hasn't perfected UI in regards to ki control, meaning he constantly radiates wasted energy as heat and vapor
The form hasn't been mastered in regard to ki control, yes Goku has trained his body to now wield it without strain
And why do you think he got caught against Planet Moro (besides the energy absorption, which we don’t know if Moro was using it earlier in the battle)? because he was losing speed and power, based on the lack of ki control.
The way I see Dragon Ball is with some basic thermodynamics, I view the character as heat engines, and apply the concept of stored energy, work, power and efficiency(in this analogy, this would be the “ki control”)
In physics whether, mechanical or biological, you lose energy based on physical conditions and efficiency(energy is lost by conversion due to heat primarily)
The character in dragon ball can be modeled simply based on that analogy.
Beerus has displayed far greater feats of ki control and seemingly now, has a technique, similar to Ultra Instinct, but for Gods of Destruction.
Because I believe that Beerus has the highest level of control over Hakai in existence, and Hakai has just been revealed to be EQUAL to UI..

So if the Grand Priest represents the highest level of UI in the Multiverse..

Then Beerus represents the highest level of Hakai in the Multiverse.

In this theory, BOTH characters have an equal level of control over their techniques..

This means that Beerus’ level of control over Hakai is superior to Whis’ level of control over UI.. (as the Grand Priest’s level of control is obviously higher than Whis’)

This means that Goku and Vegeta have an equal amount of ground to cover!!! (In terms of technique mastery!)

This also means that the Grand Priest and the other Angels simply have a MUCH higher battle power than Lord Beerus..!
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:28 am

We don’t have information on how Beerus ranks in the use of destruction skill compared to the other gods. Vados seems to be capable of using it to some extent. Who knows, maybe Zeno himself is rank #1, in contrast to the Grand Priest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Devilman21/ » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:35 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:23 am
Devilman21/ wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:05 am
:angel:
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:42 pm

Please stop this nonsense. It’s getting ridiculous at this point. Beerus >>>>> UI Goku is very clear from this chapter. No need to deny it any longer. How many times does it have to be spelled out for you until you get it? Toyotaro and Toriyama are clear in the fact that they want Beerus to stay ahead of Goku and Vegeta for a long time to come. They have no intention of Goku surpassing him any time soon, since Goku wouldn’t have a goal post to shoot for, and Beerus would lose what little meaning he still has left in the show. And we can’t have an irrelevant destroyer God walking around.. Now can we?

Image
Maybe you're right but it just feels like Beerus shouldn't be that far ahead of them. We've reached the point where we've had multiple antagonists who are implied to be, or (in the case of Jiren) outright stated to have reached if not surpassed the level of of a GoD of destruction, two of which required Goku to unlock a technique/level of power that even the Gods themselves (including Beerus) have so far been unable to achieve. The series seemed to have been dropping clues that we were reaching Beerus levels of power. Idk it's just weird. As far as keeping him relevant, you could always just have him train so he can keep up with Goku/Vegeta as rivals which is what he wanted to start with.
The point is that it seems to have been completely and totally retconned. I think the best course of action for us is to forget any notion of Goku and Vegeta reaching Beerus level, any time soon.. And by that I mean for the next 5 arcs.
I'm not entirely convinced of a retcon just quite yet (I think it's being left intentionally ambiguous), although that would certainly explain things. It just seems so unnecessary to keep Beeus stronger than Goku/Vegeta to some unknown/arbitrary extent when they could just let him be surpassed & find other ways to keep him involved. Because as things stand now he doesn't really add much to the story & he can't get involved without utterly destroying any tension. In any event, I actually think there's a decent chance he gets surpassed in this arc. We know the "strongest warrior in the universe" is about to be born & I don't think it'll be Beerus. But I suppose time will tell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:13 pm

So I guess this indirectly confirms Broly > Jiren?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:28 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:13 pm
So I guess this indirectly confirms Broly > Jiren?
Not quite. It only confirms Goku is shocked by Beerus' power. You can assume he ranked Broly in the same group of people that surpass a God of Destruction level, which Jiren is part of.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:27 pm

I don't know where this talk about Beerus power being "moved" is coming from. Beerus power was not "retconned." Beerus's might has been consistently portrayed to be above everything Goku and Vegeta could muster up so far.

Toriyama has been steadily keeping Goku and Vegeta's benchmark out of reach.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am

SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:24 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
This scale is a car crash when you take into account VJumps statement about Goku being the strongest mortal in the universe (U7)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:51 am

Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:24 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
This scale is a car crash when you take into account VJumps statement about Goku being the strongest mortal in the universe (U7)
False hype.

They do this every arc to hype up the new enemy and whatever new form Goku gets. They need to hype it up afterall. Later, it will simply get retconned again to give Goku something to shoot for.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:49 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
This was already confirmed to be incorrect. (Movie) Broly is weaker than Goku right now, unless he gets stronger after some training.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:32 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
It was already "proven otherwise" when Goku gave Moro73 the highest ranking possible, even before Moro used UI.
In DB, strong and tough have been interchangeable words since 1986, so why do people remain in denial, when the manga was explicit about Moro and UI?
What's so offensive about it that you need to refuse to believe one of the few statements we've ever gotten in DBS? feats back them up, as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:34 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:49 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
This was already confirmed to be incorrect. (Movie) Broly is weaker than Goku right now, unless he gets stronger after some training.
mhm.

current MUI Goku >= Angelic UI Moro >> 7-Moro-3 ~ Gogeta Blue ~ ToP MUI >> Prime Moro ~ LB Jiren ~ FPSS Broly > power stressed Omen/Spirit Control SSB Evolution


For what it's worth Goku getting this surprised over Beeru's power downscales Broly. Because even after total mastery of MUI he believes he sees a very impressive feat of power in Beerus, when he questioned about Broly being actually superior. Basically, Beerus is stronger (even if I hate this) than Goku believed he was in the Broly saga.
P O W E R

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:49 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
This was already confirmed to be incorrect. (Movie) Broly is weaker than Goku right now, unless he gets stronger after some training.
False. Nothing like this has been “confirmed”. Quite the contrary actually, if you had listened to my original post. Broly is the one who has been compared to Beerus. As “probably” stronger. UI Goku hasn’t.

Broly: 1 point.

UI Goku: 0 points.

Evidence is literally not on your and that other dude’s side, yet you still continue to ignore that and try to blame ME for using headcanon. This is truly sad.

The evidence (that really exists out there!) literally says that Vegito Blue from the Zamasu Arc, and SSJ Full Power Broly are around Beerus’ level. (Makes sense, they’re FUSION level characters afterall.) While there is ZERO evidence for UI Goku to be put on Beerus’ level. Yet you guys literally dare to attack me for using “headcanon”..... (your words). If that isn’t hypocritical, I don’t know what is.

You guys are still ignoring these facts. (And intentionally so!)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:14 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:34 pm
Basically, Beerus is stronger (even if I hate this) than Goku believed he was in the Broly saga.
If you have been following the manga storyline, Beerus’ rank is being kept ambiguous, in order to create that sense of a room to grow for Goku and Vegeta. I believe it has been presented like that intentionally, to mislead our perception each time they find a greater strength. That’s why I don’t blame the other guy above me each time he repeats the same Broly argument.

It’s a recurring theme on modern Dragon Ball that true strength is achieved by overcoming your own demons, so Beerus more or less personifies that idea. He destroyed his own doubts and preconceptions and reached an enlightened fighting spirit. The more Goku and Vegeta dive into this path, the more they realize how strong Beerus is. It’s no surprise that Goku is shocked after seeing Beerus using more of his power. He couldn’t know until he reached such a level of mastery of his own strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:21 pm

The sooner you accept what the show explicitly stated, the less "contradictions" you'll find within your own interpretation of the show, and lesser will your needs for retcons.

--


Regarding Goku's reaction, I felt it more along the lines of how unpredictable Beerus actually is, he is destroying planets even before starting the workout, like what the hell? and he is hakaing those planets, too.. and hakaing Vegeta. Damn... he really is scary, he doesn't mess around.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:18 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:14 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:34 pm
Basically, Beerus is stronger (even if I hate this) than Goku believed he was in the Broly saga.
If you have been following the manga storyline, Beerus’ rank is being kept ambiguous, in order to create that sense of a room to grow for Goku and Vegeta. I believe it has been presented like that intentionally, to mislead our perception each time they find a greater strength. That’s why I don’t blame the other guy above me each time he repeats the same Broly argument.

It’s a recurring theme on modern Dragon Ball that true strength is achieved by overcoming your own demons, so Beerus more or less personifies that idea. He destroyed his own doubts and preconceptions and reached an enlightened fighting spirit. The more Goku and Vegeta dive into this path, the more they realize how strong Beerus is. It’s no surprise that Goku is shocked after seeing Beerus using more of his power. He couldn’t know until he reached such a level of mastery of his own strength.
I do like your theory on Beerus representing the inner demon for Goku and Vegeta to overcome.. But that’s exactly it. For Goku and Vegeta to overcome. Not for Broly.. Remember that he is just a SIDE character, and since it’s (likely) not in his nature to train and always strive to consciously better himself like Goku and Vegeta do, he’s allowed to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta, and indeed on Beerus’ level. Since Broly isn’t the one trying to surpass Beerus here. He’s much like Gohan. Crazy amounts of potential, yet rarely trains. This is perfect for plot purposes to the writers! The character can be very flexible!
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:22 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:21 pm
The sooner you accept what the show explicitly stated, the less "contradictions" you'll find within your own interpretation of the show, and lesser will your needs for retcons.

--


Regarding Goku's reaction, I felt it more along the lines of how unpredictable Beerus actually is, he is destroying planets even before starting the workout, like what the hell? and he is hakaing those planets, too.. and hakaing Vegeta. Damn... he really is scary, he doesn't mess around.
I mean, you can’t seriously still try to argue UI Goku >= Beerus, right??? Even after all this evidence.

It’s one thing to believe UI Goku & Beerus > Broly.. But it’s another thing entirely to believe UI Goku > Beerus, as of Chapter 69.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:49 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:51 am
Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:24 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
This scale is a car crash when you take into account VJumps statement about Goku being the strongest mortal in the universe (U7)
False hype.

They do this every arc to hype up the new enemy and whatever new form Goku gets. They need to hype it up afterall. Later, it will simply get retconned again to give Goku something to shoot for.
Then Broly never had anything to stand on. His "strongest enemy" hype came from promo and his Beerus comparison was always dodgy at best since the cat is constantly being scaled up

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:55 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:22 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:21 pm
The sooner you accept what the show explicitly stated, the less "contradictions" you'll find within your own interpretation of the show, and lesser will your needs for retcons.

--


Regarding Goku's reaction, I felt it more along the lines of how unpredictable Beerus actually is, he is destroying planets even before starting the workout, like what the hell? and he is hakaing those planets, too.. and hakaing Vegeta. Damn... he really is scary, he doesn't mess around.
I mean, you can’t seriously still try to argue UI Goku >= Beerus, right??? Even after all this evidence.

It’s one thing to believe UI Goku & Beerus > Broly.. But it’s another thing entirely to believe UI Goku > Beerus, as of Chapter 69.
What evidence? where is the beyond-doubt evidence? where's the clear-cut statement? when were they compared? any chance at comparing them has been purposely kept ambiguous, Goku instead of saying "wow, I'm still far from Beerus", says something else.
Where's the "toughest ever" comment? in the Moro arc, that's where, that's evidence and you still dismiss it, so why wouldn't I dismiss Beerus boasting to Vegeta and calling himself limitless?

I'm not saying it can't be the case, I'm saying there's no evidence AT ALL, yet. One way or the other. Beerus can still be above UI, just as UI can be above Beerus, thus being the reason why Beerus now is suddenly so interested in working out and using Vegeta for some ulterior reason. Or not. Time will tell, but evidence? so far? no.

And please, keep in mind: personal interpretations of certain panels ≠ evidence.

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