Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3731
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:13 pm

To be fair, Goku doesn’t spell out to us that Beerus is stronger than him, but his body language is screaming that. Whis, who is stronger than Beerus, is totally used to that level of power and he’s tranquil.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2758
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:53 pm

Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:49 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:51 am
Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:24 am

This scale is a car crash when you take into account VJumps statement about Goku being the strongest mortal in the universe (U7)
False hype.

They do this every arc to hype up the new enemy and whatever new form Goku gets. They need to hype it up afterall. Later, it will simply get retconned again to give Goku something to shoot for.
Then Broly never had anything to stand on. His "strongest enemy" hype came from promo and his Beerus comparison was always dodgy at best since the cat is constantly being scaled up
Still, he fought against a post ToP SSJ Blue Fusion.. And Broly likely doesn’t train. So he’s allowed to reach Beerus level this soon. Remember that this story is not about Broly’s growth, it’s about Goku’s and Vegeta’s growth. Broly is just a side character, and is unlikely to return any time soon.
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:55 pm

I don't assume anything unless we have an outright statement.

That being said, I'll at least put Jiren below an Ultra Instinct Moro, who Beerus seemed confident he could at least do something about once fused with the planet, who gave Goku trouble.

And Beerus is above an improved SSBE Vegeta, who was strong enough to at least contend somewhat with Moro before fusing with Seven-Three, who also gave an improved UI Sign Goku more trouble than Jiren gave ToP UI Sign Goku at first.

Right now I'd put Jiren at the very bottom, because he's only outright stated in the manga to be stronger than Belmod.

Other than that, where Beerus, Moro, UI Goku, and Broly all rank against each other is incredibly ambiguous. There are a variety of contradictory implications, combined with actual statements (Goku saying Moro is the toughest guy he's fought, the Beerus implications, and the statement that Broly is likely stronger than Beerus.)

The only thing I would personally say with absolute confidence right now is that SSB Gogeta is above all those fighters, and possibly manga SSB Vegito as well.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2758
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:05 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:55 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:22 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:21 pm
The sooner you accept what the show explicitly stated, the less "contradictions" you'll find within your own interpretation of the show, and lesser will your needs for retcons.

--


Regarding Goku's reaction, I felt it more along the lines of how unpredictable Beerus actually is, he is destroying planets even before starting the workout, like what the hell? and he is hakaing those planets, too.. and hakaing Vegeta. Damn... he really is scary, he doesn't mess around.
I mean, you can’t seriously still try to argue UI Goku >= Beerus, right??? Even after all this evidence.

It’s one thing to believe UI Goku & Beerus > Broly.. But it’s another thing entirely to believe UI Goku > Beerus, as of Chapter 69.
What evidence? where is the beyond-doubt evidence? where's the clear-cut statement? when were they compared? any chance at comparing them has been purposely kept ambiguous, Goku instead of saying "wow, I'm still far from Beerus", says something else.
Where's the "toughest ever" comment? in the Moro arc, that's where, that's evidence and you still dismiss it, so why wouldn't I dismiss Beerus boasting to Vegeta and calling himself limitless?

I'm not saying it can't be the case, I'm saying there's no evidence AT ALL, yet. One way or the other. Beerus can still be above UI, just as UI can be above Beerus, thus being the reason why Beerus now is suddenly so interested in working out and using Vegeta for some ulterior reason. Or not. Time will tell, but evidence? so far? no.

And please, keep in mind: personal interpretations of certain panels ≠ evidence.
You’re coping...

There is evidence.. It’s called reason, logic, and understanding the writers’ mindsets..

They clearly don’t want Goku to surpass or reach Beerus level yet.. They NEED Beerus stronger for a long time to come, so Goku has something to shoot for. Beerus likely has the highest control over Hakai energy (which is a technique EQUAL to UI!) in existence.. And so if Goku is going to match and overpower that, he’s going to need a level of control over UI AT LEAST on the Grand Priest’s level!

Don’t get me wrong. I’m talking about technique mastery here. NOT powerlevels! Because the Grand Priest has an infinitely higher power level than Beerus and Goku almost!

Beerus represents the highest level of control over Hakai in existence.

While the Grand Priest represents the highest level of control over UI currently in existence.

It was very strongly implied by Whis that the Grand Priest isn’t perfect yet, and that higher levels of control over the technique can be achieved potentially.

IF my theory is correct ofcourse..

This would make Goku DECADES away from reaching Beerus level!
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:57 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:05 pm

There is evidence.. It’s called reason, logic, and understanding the writers’ mindsets..
So, your so-called evidence was just your interpretation. I thought so...

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2758
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:07 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:57 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:05 pm

There is evidence.. It’s called reason, logic, and understanding the writers’ mindsets..
So, your so-called evidence was just your interpretation. I thought so...
Did you even read the rest of my post? If you didn’t, then it seems you are merely out there to get into arguments.
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

Devilman21/
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Devilman21/ » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:33 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:05 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:55 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:22 pm

I mean, you can’t seriously still try to argue UI Goku >= Beerus, right??? Even after all this evidence.

It’s one thing to believe UI Goku & Beerus > Broly.. But it’s another thing entirely to believe UI Goku > Beerus, as of Chapter 69.
What evidence? where is the beyond-doubt evidence? where's the clear-cut statement? when were they compared? any chance at comparing them has been purposely kept ambiguous, Goku instead of saying "wow, I'm still far from Beerus", says something else.
Where's the "toughest ever" comment? in the Moro arc, that's where, that's evidence and you still dismiss it, so why wouldn't I dismiss Beerus boasting to Vegeta and calling himself limitless?

I'm not saying it can't be the case, I'm saying there's no evidence AT ALL, yet. One way or the other. Beerus can still be above UI, just as UI can be above Beerus, thus being the reason why Beerus now is suddenly so interested in working out and using Vegeta for some ulterior reason. Or not. Time will tell, but evidence? so far? no.

And please, keep in mind: personal interpretations of certain panels ≠ evidence.
You’re coping...

There is evidence.. It’s called reason, logic, and understanding the writers’ mindsets..

They clearly don’t want Goku to surpass or reach Beerus level yet.. They NEED Beerus stronger for a long time to come, so Goku has something to shoot for. Beerus likely has the highest control over Hakai energy (which is a technique EQUAL to UI!) in existence.. And so if Goku is going to match and overpower that, he’s going to need a level of control over UI AT LEAST on the Grand Priest’s level!

Don’t get me wrong. I’m talking about technique mastery here. NOT powerlevels! Because the Grand Priest has an infinitely higher power level than Beerus and Goku almost!

Beerus represents the highest level of control over Hakai in existence.

While the Grand Priest represents the highest level of control over UI currently in existence.

It was very strongly implied by Whis that the Grand Priest isn’t perfect yet, and that higher levels of control over the technique can be achieved potentially.

IF my theory is correct ofcourse..

This would make Goku DECADES away from reaching Beerus level!
This makes sense to me but its also precisely my issue with Beerus still being the benchmark for Goku. Beerus has been Goku's goal since BOG but now that he has achieved UI & has gone up against and defeated God of Destruction level threats, it makes more sense for him to shift his focus towards honing & further mastering his UI as Whis and the Grand Priest have done. Another issue I have is the lack of clear power progression akin to what we got in Z. It felt like we were getting that until this arc:

BOG: Goku & co are introduced to a new class of godhood represented by Beerus. They become gods themselves but are still outclassed by Beerus, making him the benchmark.

ROF/U6: Goku/Vegeta continue their journey into godhood, reaching new heights of power that even gets Beerus's attention but are still not yet the rivals he is after.

FT: Merge Zamasu (anime) is said to have ascended to a level of godhood "beyond their understanding", putting him in a class of power previously unseen before (sans Beerus) and SSB Vegito is directly compared to Beerus and is said to have power that might "be even greater than Lord Beerus". Clearly indicating that we were getting close to God of destruction levels of power.

TOP: Then in the very next arc Goku & Vegeta are implied to be at the level of a god of destruction trainee ( Goku = Toppo, and Beerus flat out says Vegeta would make a good destroyer in training in another universe) & we are introduced to a mortal who has "reached the level of a God of Destruction, maybe even surpassed it". In order to defeat this rival, Goku has to go beyond it by achieving a technique that not even the Gods themselves have been able to master. A level of power previously only attained by the Angels.

Broly: Once again we are introduced to an opponent who's power is compared to that of a God of Destruction & not just any god of destruction but Beerus specifically.

Moro arc: Prime Moro claims to have power that "surpasses that of the Gods", seemingly putting him in the same category of the last two antagonists, Broly and Jiren, who were similarly described. He then becomes Moro 7x3 and is explicitly stated to be the "toughest" guy Goku has ever come across, putting him above every opponent that came before him including Beerus. And much like with Jiren, another mortal who had surpassed the Gods, Goku had to achieve power akin to the only thing capable of defeating a god of destruction level threat: an Angel.

Current arc: Goku leans that he is only at the level of an Angel trainee and still has awhile to go before he can fully master UI. Beerus has been surpassed but still has a technique up his sleeve that allows him to be at least a rival for Goku (you know the reason he sought out the Super Saiyan God to begin with?)and Vegeta is now also trying to learn that technique so that he can catch up to Goku.

Clean and simple power progression that is now lost if Beerus is still kept at some arbitrary level above Goku. But this is just how I feel. I don't think it matters very much because it looks like Beerus might get surpassed in this arc (hopefully).

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3285
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:08 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
Your statement is actually the epitome of fiction.

The strongest warrior in the universe [U7] is about to be born. That automatically removes Broly from your head scale. Since this event is going to happen, The Oracle fish also said that "Universe 7's balance is shifting." This means Goku will no longer be the strongest in the universe. This statement also justify's Goku crowning Moro as the "toughest" he has ever faced; also means the strongest. Again, this pushes Broly/Gogeta down the hole even further.

Now we have a technique from Beerus that would make even Vegeta possibly surpass this current Goku. Both of them haven't even "become" strong enough to rival Beerus yet. Therefore making your placing of Beerus null and void. Your whole scale is not story accurate.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:53 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:07 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:57 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:05 pm

There is evidence.. It’s called reason, logic, and understanding the writers’ mindsets..
So, your so-called evidence was just your interpretation. I thought so...
Did you even read the rest of my post? If you didn’t, then it seems you are merely out there to get into arguments.
Yes, and you literally produced no evidence at all, only your interpretation of the author's mindset and a theory of yours. Which is ok, but it is not evidence.

Evidence looks like this:
There. No theories or interpretations, just a plain explicit statement with context. Goku and Moro >>> Broly and Gogeta. Beerus remains in the air for now.

In Goku's statement comparing Broly and Beerus, Broly is the constant, not the variable, Beerus is the variable because his FP had not yet been revealed or even hinted at existing at all. Goku knows first-hand how strong Broly is, just like he knows how strong Moro73 is. So Beerus having an ace up his sleeve, doesn't change Broly's place.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2758
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:03 pm

Devilman21/ wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:33 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:05 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:55 pm


What evidence? where is the beyond-doubt evidence? where's the clear-cut statement? when were they compared? any chance at comparing them has been purposely kept ambiguous, Goku instead of saying "wow, I'm still far from Beerus", says something else.
Where's the "toughest ever" comment? in the Moro arc, that's where, that's evidence and you still dismiss it, so why wouldn't I dismiss Beerus boasting to Vegeta and calling himself limitless?

I'm not saying it can't be the case, I'm saying there's no evidence AT ALL, yet. One way or the other. Beerus can still be above UI, just as UI can be above Beerus, thus being the reason why Beerus now is suddenly so interested in working out and using Vegeta for some ulterior reason. Or not. Time will tell, but evidence? so far? no.

And please, keep in mind: personal interpretations of certain panels ≠ evidence.
You’re coping...

There is evidence.. It’s called reason, logic, and understanding the writers’ mindsets..

They clearly don’t want Goku to surpass or reach Beerus level yet.. They NEED Beerus stronger for a long time to come, so Goku has something to shoot for. Beerus likely has the highest control over Hakai energy (which is a technique EQUAL to UI!) in existence.. And so if Goku is going to match and overpower that, he’s going to need a level of control over UI AT LEAST on the Grand Priest’s level!

Don’t get me wrong. I’m talking about technique mastery here. NOT powerlevels! Because the Grand Priest has an infinitely higher power level than Beerus and Goku almost!

Beerus represents the highest level of control over Hakai in existence.

While the Grand Priest represents the highest level of control over UI currently in existence.

It was very strongly implied by Whis that the Grand Priest isn’t perfect yet, and that higher levels of control over the technique can be achieved potentially.

IF my theory is correct ofcourse..

This would make Goku DECADES away from reaching Beerus level!
This makes sense to me but its also precisely my issue with Beerus still being the benchmark for Goku. Beerus has been Goku's goal since BOG but now that he has achieved UI & has gone up against and defeated God of Destruction level threats, it makes more sense for him to shift his focus towards honing & further mastering his UI as Whis and the Grand Priest have done. Another issue I have is the lack of clear power progression akin to what we got in Z. It felt like we were getting that until this arc:

BOG: Goku & co are introduced to a new class of godhood represented by Beerus. They become gods themselves but are still outclassed by Beerus, making him the benchmark.

ROF/U6: Goku/Vegeta continue their journey into godhood, reaching new heights of power that even gets Beerus's attention but are still not yet the rivals he is after.

FT: Merge Zamasu (anime) is said to have ascended to a level of godhood "beyond their understanding", putting him in a class of power previously unseen before (sans Beerus) and SSB Vegito is directly compared to Beerus and is said to have power that might "be even greater than Lord Beerus". Clearly indicating that we were getting close to God of destruction levels of power.

TOP: Then in the very next arc Goku & Vegeta are implied to be at the level of a god of destruction trainee ( Goku = Toppo, and Beerus flat out says Vegeta would make a good destroyer in training in another universe) & we are introduced to a mortal who has "reached the level of a God of Destruction, maybe even surpassed it". In order to defeat this rival, Goku has to go beyond it by achieving a technique that not even the Gods themselves have been able to master. A level of power previously only attained by the Angels.

Broly: Once again we are introduced to an opponent who's power is compared to that of a God of Destruction & not just any god of destruction but Beerus specifically.

Moro arc: Prime Moro claims to have power that "surpasses that of the Gods", seemingly putting him in the same category of the last two antagonists, Broly and Jiren, who were similarly described. He then becomes Moro 7x3 and is explicitly stated to be the "toughest" guy Goku has ever come across, putting him above every opponent that came before him including Beerus. And much like with Jiren, another mortal who had surpassed the Gods, Goku had to achieve power akin to the only thing capable of defeating a god of destruction level threat: an Angel.

Current arc: Goku leans that he is only at the level of an Angel trainee and still has awhile to go before he can fully master UI. Beerus has been surpassed but still has a technique up his sleeve that allows him to be at least a rival for Goku (you know the reason he sought out the Super Saiyan God to begin with?)and Vegeta is now also trying to learn that technique so that he can catch up to Goku.

Clean and simple power progression that is now lost if Beerus is still kept at some arbitrary level above Goku. But this is just how I feel. I don't think it matters very much because it looks like Beerus might get surpassed in this arc (hopefully).
I really have nothing other to say to you than to give you my compliments: Good post! It’s a really well written and thought out post. Yeah I agree with pretty much the bulk of what you said.. They keep leading us into a certain direction, only for them to retcon it again later down ahead.


The way I look at it, is that Beerus is also, (just like Goku and Vegeta), a student of Whis.. And if you add in the many mentions of Goku and Vegeta eventually becoming rivals to him.. Things may start to become a lot more clear!

The rival part may mean that it has never been Toriyama’s attention to have Goku and Vegeta full on surpassing Lord Beerus...! Only “rival” him.. But since Beerus has been a God of Destruction for hundreds of millions of years.. And his level of control over Hakai power is pretty much implied to be the absolute summit and pinnacle of existence.. It makes me believe it would take Goku over a dozen arcs potentially to reach a level of control even higher than the Grand Priest in order to be able to match (and slightly overpower) Lord Beerus..

This means that the Angels simply have a much higher battle power than the mortals and the (“mortals-turned GoDs”).
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2758
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:05 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:08 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
Your statement is actually the epitome of fiction.

The strongest warrior in the universe [U7] is about to be born. That automatically removes Broly from your head scale. Since this event is going to happen, The Oracle fish also said that "Universe 7's balance is shifting." This means Goku will no longer be the strongest in the universe. This statement also justify's Goku crowning Moro as the "toughest" he has ever faced; also means the strongest. Again, this pushes Broly/Gogeta down the hole even further.

Now we have a technique from Beerus that would make even Vegeta possibly surpass this current Goku. Both of them haven't even "become" strong enough to rival Beerus yet. Therefore making your placing of Beerus null and void. Your whole scale is not story accurate.
This is all false hype.. I wouldn’t pay any attention to it. You will see in the end that I was right.
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2758
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:11 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:53 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:07 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:57 pm


So, your so-called evidence was just your interpretation. I thought so...
Did you even read the rest of my post? If you didn’t, then it seems you are merely out there to get into arguments.
Yes, and you literally produced no evidence at all, only your interpretation of the author's mindset and a theory of yours. Which is ok, but it is not evidence.

Evidence looks like this:
There. No theories or interpretations, just a plain explicit statement with context. Goku and Moro >>> Broly and Gogeta. Beerus remains in the air for now.

In Goku's statement comparing Broly and Beerus, Broly is the constant, not the variable, Beerus is the variable because his FP had not yet been revealed or even hinted at existing at all. Goku knows first-hand how strong Broly is, just like he knows how strong Moro73 is. So Beerus having an ace up his sleeve, doesn't change Broly's place.
This is NOT evidence AT ALL. These statements are empty and always end up being contradicted later down the line.. In fact this one in particular is already false from the start.

Goku says: “Toughest person he’s ever met.” If he really means the “strongest” by that, then it’s especially false.

Since Goku has met Broly, Beerus, Whis, all the other Angels, the Grand Priest, even the Omni-King’s and their guards!

And no. You don’t get to pick and choose the characters this applies to Koitsukai.. Goku’s statement was very clear.. “ANYONE he’s MET.” It doesn’t get clearer than this. And it has been a fact for a while now that Beerus is superior to Moro 73 too.. So this statement by Goku is false for that reason alone already aswell..
“The fool looks for God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:20 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:11 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:53 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:07 pm

Did you even read the rest of my post? If you didn’t, then it seems you are merely out there to get into arguments.
Yes, and you literally produced no evidence at all, only your interpretation of the author's mindset and a theory of yours. Which is ok, but it is not evidence.

Evidence looks like this:
There. No theories or interpretations, just a plain explicit statement with context. Goku and Moro >>> Broly and Gogeta. Beerus remains in the air for now.

In Goku's statement comparing Broly and Beerus, Broly is the constant, not the variable, Beerus is the variable because his FP had not yet been revealed or even hinted at existing at all. Goku knows first-hand how strong Broly is, just like he knows how strong Moro73 is. So Beerus having an ace up his sleeve, doesn't change Broly's place.
This is NOT evidence AT ALL. These statements are empty and always end up being contradicted later down the line.. In fact this one in particular is already false from the start.

Goku says: “Toughest person he’s ever met.” If he really means “strongest by that” then it’s especially false.

Since Goku has met Broly, Beerus, Whis, all the other Angels, the Grand Priest, even the Omni-King’s and their guards!

And no. You don’t get to pick and choose the characters this applies to Koitsukai.. Goku’s statement was very clear.. “ANYONE he’s MET.” It doesn’t get clearer than this. And it has been a fact for a while now that Beerus is superior to Moro 73 too.. So this statement by Goku is false for that reason alone already aswell..
What???? you cannot be serious, man. You know what, I'm done here.

Nevaeh
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:39 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:22 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:53 pm
Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:49 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:51 am

False hype.

They do this every arc to hype up the new enemy and whatever new form Goku gets. They need to hype it up afterall. Later, it will simply get retconned again to give Goku something to shoot for.
Then Broly never had anything to stand on. His "strongest enemy" hype came from promo and his Beerus comparison was always dodgy at best since the cat is constantly being scaled up
Still, he fought against a post ToP SSJ Blue Fusion.. And Broly likely doesn’t train. So he’s allowed to reach Beerus level this soon. Remember that this story is not about Broly’s growth, it’s about Goku’s and Vegeta’s growth. Broly is just a side character, and is unlikely to return any time soon.
You're overrating him. Broly did no such fighting. He was a punching bag. Nothing impressive about that.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3285
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:46 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:05 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:08 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
Your statement is actually the epitome of fiction.

The strongest warrior in the universe [U7] is about to be born. That automatically removes Broly from your head scale. Since this event is going to happen, The Oracle fish also said that "Universe 7's balance is shifting." This means Goku will no longer be the strongest in the universe. This statement also justify's Goku crowning Moro as the "toughest" he has ever faced; also means the strongest. Again, this pushes Broly/Gogeta down the hole even further.

Now we have a technique from Beerus that would make even Vegeta possibly surpass this current Goku. Both of them haven't even "become" strong enough to rival Beerus yet. Therefore making your placing of Beerus null and void. Your whole scale is not story accurate.
This is all false hype.. I wouldn’t pay any attention to it. You will see in the end that I was right.
OK. We will revisit this later.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:50 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:14 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:34 pm
Basically, Beerus is stronger (even if I hate this) than Goku believed he was in the Broly saga.
If you have been following the manga storyline, Beerus’ rank is being kept ambiguous, in order to create that sense of a room to grow for Goku and Vegeta. I believe it has been presented like that intentionally, to mislead our perception each time they find a greater strength. That’s why I don’t blame the other guy above me each time he repeats the same Broly argument.
Precisely that. The story is purposely keeping Beerus' power ambiguous to work around it. No explicit statement about the extent of his powers / people surpassing him or even about a human mastering a technique that Beerus himself never managed to master after thousands of years. We were even suddenly introduced to a new GoD technique used by Beerus (which was never previously hinted, and which was never used in the GoD exhibition tournament) capable of surpassing even the Ultra Instinct. The feeling is that they could easily argue that UI Goku surpassed Beerus and the other GoDs, but the lack of direct comparisons and the complete disinterest from Beerus in seeing UI being used suggests that this does not seem to be the case.
Nevaeh wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:22 pm
You're overrating him. Broly did no such fighting. He was a punching bag. Nothing impressive about that.
Also this. I don't know why people use the argument that Broly faced an SSB fusion, as if it raised his level. He was completely destroyed by Gogeta

User avatar
pepd
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:00 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:11 pm
This is NOT evidence AT ALL. These statements are empty and always end up being contradicted later down the line.. In fact this one in particular is already false from the start.

Goku says: “Toughest person he’s ever met.” If he really means the “strongest” by that, then it’s especially false.

Since Goku has met Broly, Beerus, Whis, all the other Angels, the Grand Priest, even the Omni-King’s and their guards!

And no. You don’t get to pick and choose the characters this applies to Koitsukai.. Goku’s statement was very clear.. “ANYONE he’s MET.” It doesn’t get clearer than this. And it has been a fact for a while now that Beerus is superior to Moro 73 too.. So this statement by Goku is false for that reason alone already aswell..
So your interpretation doesn't have sense, and instead of questioning it and considering other possibilities it you dismiss them, and the statement?
That statement is clearly exposition, and considering of those only Broli (who Gokuu compared using "probable" with a character he doesn't know its real power btw) is not "choosing", he is the only mortal and the only of those who he had or could fight seriously; and, of course, the only one for who the statement has sense.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3285
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:43 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:05 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:08 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 am
SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>> Broly >= Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

This remains true until proven otherwise.
Your statement is actually the epitome of fiction.

The strongest warrior in the universe [U7] is about to be born. That automatically removes Broly from your head scale. Since this event is going to happen, The Oracle fish also said that "Universe 7's balance is shifting." This means Goku will no longer be the strongest in the universe. This statement also justify's Goku crowning Moro as the "toughest" he has ever faced; also means the strongest. Again, this pushes Broly/Gogeta down the hole even further.

Now we have a technique from Beerus that would make even Vegeta possibly surpass this current Goku. Both of them haven't even "become" strong enough to rival Beerus yet. Therefore making your placing of Beerus null and void. Your whole scale is not story accurate.
This is all false hype.. I wouldn’t pay any attention to it. You will see in the end that I was right.
I also wanted to add something to what I stated earlier. I completely doubt that you will be right. When you aren't even correct now.

Your premise goes against the author's eternal and cemented rules of the story. Where Toriyama himself has stated twice after BoG; Goku progressively fights the "mightiest-foe" "every time." Toriyama even concluded that he won't let people tell him the current enemy is weaker than the last. So you trying to put Broly above Moro and the current enemy in power is wishful thinking. Especially when Toriyama said that logic would indeed be "a step back" for our heroes.

As for those who are pleading ignorance on whether Goku is stronger than Beerus. This is only true if you cherry pick the story. We know for a fact that Goku is not stronger than Beerus. Since the plot of the Oracle Fish's prophecy has not yet come to pass. Unless the fandom can show me in the writing where the narration changed and stated Goku/vegeta are indeed even "formidable?" For get the fact about just being stronger, Where in the story has it stated or shown that they became strong enough to even give Beerus a challenge?

Lets not jump the gun people. Lets just take what the story gives us and enjoy it.

jd55513
Newbie
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:30 pm

My debate with Emosh and Unreal on Beerus and UI Goku

https://youtu.be/Zfcb_6SHEYE

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3731
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:53 pm

jd55513 wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:30 pm
My debate with Emosh and Unreal on Beerus and UI Goku

https://youtu.be/Zfcb_6SHEYE
Can you summarize the most relevant points?

Post Reply