Beerus power analysis:
My take on the Beerus being better than Goku, Vegeta, Jiren and Moro:
The paradigm of Dragon Ball has shifted from brute strength to techniques correct?
All of the training Goku and Vegeta has done in Super has been to prevent their ki from leaking correct? Why is that? Because power is condensed and concentrated.
Look at some of the feats Beerus has done as early as the first couple episodes. He has flicked a SSj3 Goku, Tapped a planet in half with his fingers, sneezed a planet away on accident and obviously has Hakai.
The first point I'm making is up to the current arc, would you not agree that Beerus still has greater Ki control than Goku, Vegeta and Jiren?
In a fight, if you sustain a appreciable amount of damage, you lose ki, keep this in mind.
Ultra Instinct is a state of mind that again is based on the current level of power as the individual.
Ultra Instinct has NOT been mastered based on the current chapters, and the fact that Goku has not mastered the ki control of Ultra Instinct.
This is important because Beerus base strength is still far greater than Goku is, In the current arc
When Goku mastered SSJ and then in Super, learned Blue, was it already mastered? No, it wasn’t. The same can be applied to Ultra Instinct:
In regards to Ultra Instance and its proposed mastery, Goku mastered tapping into it! Goku mastered is the principles in which allow him to tap into Ultra Instinct, and not that he has honed Ultra Instinct to the utmost of its ability as a technique, just see Whis recent comments of UI Goku….
That's why it's marketed as "Mastered" or "Completed" because Ultra Instinct, as Merus said, is HAVING SELF-CONTROL in the face of jarring shock to your emotions.
Goku has MASTERED having self-control. He just needs to HONE his instincts, and find a fighting style unique only to him and his bodies motion with Ultra Instinct.
Incorrect, it has everything to do with each form. If your energy leaks out as heat and vapor, you lose physical strength, which Goku understood
In regards to Ki control, as manifested through all of the transformations we have see: The large amount of Ki present in a particular form could affect your ability to effectively control it. SSJ3 being a prime example. Each form affects the body differently until the drawbacks it has are addressed and corrected.
The issue is, Goku and Vegeta's bodies were not strong enough to withstand that much power from leaking at the time, hence why they had ki auras while in Super Saiyan Blue, which is why Blue was always displayed poorly against villains in early DB Super
Getting back to my argument, Goku has not mastered ki control on his complete ultra instinct state, this is a problem, because he loses strength as the battle passes. Beerus in his character we have seen, has better ki control.
Beerus base strength is greater than current Goku's base strength correct, including the blue Kaioken x20 multipler correct?
If you agree it that, Goku's only option would be compete ultra instinct, which would be formidable to Beerus, however that's where ki control comes into play
We now know that hakai is a state of mind with tiers and different abilities like Ultra Instinct, so based on that scaling and the feat we just saw with Vegetas armor being hakai, I would argue that Beerus in his hakai mode would easily crush goku, if he caught him, which he would, since goku would eventually lose his strength and speed as we have seen against Jiren and Moro
Again, based on ki control, the current paradigm of power
I believe he tapped out of it, against planet Moro, because he hasn't perfected UI in regards to ki control, meaning he constantly radiates wasted energy as heat and vapor
The form hasn't been mastered in regard to ki control, yes Goku has trained his body to now wield it without strain
And why do you think he got caught against Planet Moro (besides the energy absorption, which we don’t know if Moro was using it earlier in the battle)? because he was losing speed and power, based on the lack of ki control.
The way I see Dragon Ball is with some basic thermodynamics, I view the character as heat engines, and apply the concept of stored energy, work, power and efficiency(in this analogy, this would be the “ki control”)
In physics whether, mechanical or biological, you lose energy based on physical conditions and efficiency(energy is lost by conversion due to heat primarily)
The character in dragon ball can be modeled simply based on that analogy.
Beerus has displayed far greater feats of ki control and seemingly now, has a technique, similar to Ultra Instinct, but for Gods of Destruction.
If you agree that UI and Hakai are techniques of the Gods that use God ki, and if you agree with Whis analysis that UI Goku is still the lowest tier of that technique, and if you agree with the statement by whis that UI is a Technique that "avoids any and all danger however severe" and if you agree with the statements by Beerus, that Hakai has different tiers and is based on the Buddhist-Daoist state of mind, but emptiness, except for destruction, and if you agree with my explanation of UI as a power up different than the S cells of Saiyan transformations, and finally if you agree that Beerus is the highest tier of Hakai, we have seen, then Beerus is better at a godly technique than goku's godly technique.
Which means all goku can do against Beerus who is also using a similar god technique (Hakai) is dodge and attempt to land hits on Beerus, but since Goku has not mastered UI, he leaks ki as radiation in the form of heat, sweat, and light, meaning, like a light bulb or a heat engine, you eventually run out of ki due to efficiency (ki control and such) Beerus has more ki(his base is larger than goku's base) so Goku would have no way of countering hakai, and it would be a battle of stamina, efficiency and endurance, which I argued Beerus has better ki control.
Points i made in the discord:
Why is SSB Goku weaker than SSB Mastered in the same arc?
@Emosh They are the same form no? They are both the same transformations state(except: ki control is why one is stronger than the other) that's why I brought up energy and it's properties (i.e radiation in the form of heat and light)
Think of a light bulb, it radiants energy no? That energy is a form of light and heat correct?
Lightbulbs lose energy over time due to this and "efficiency" which is the same principle of ki control
Hence why I brought up the principal in each iterations of the forms.
@Inevitable Angels have more ki than Gods of destruction.
I said that UI and Hakai have similar mechanics and tiers to one another
You agree that UI Goku is weaker than Whis correct? Why is that, if they are both using the same technique? Ki
Whis is better at Ki control in UI than Goku is in UI correct?
@Emosh except you gave the correct answer to my question.
Is SSB Goku mastered, more powerful than SSB Goku?
You said it was because of ki?
No it was because of ki control
They are the same form. Except one uses more power than the other
SSB Goku got clapped by merged zamasu correct, the SSB Mastered Goku, clapped Merged Zamasu. If they are the same form and have the same ki, that means "efficiency" or ki control is what allows one to be better than the other
@Emosh Akira Toriyama said in a interview, that there are two ways to increase your "power" have more "ki", or have more "ki control"
If you agree that the forms are the same(they are,barring zenkai or training) then goku's ki is the same in both forms, BUT his ki control is DIFFERENT so that manifest itself as "more power"
@Inevitable The light bulb analogy represents the principles in the series.
For example and like I said in the debate: Does Toriyama have to name drop a concept, for it to exist in the story. Is gravity in the story of DB?
Is ki a form of energy? If so, I can talk about the properties of energy correct?
If you agree that there are different "levels" of UI than you just agreed to my argument.
What is the difference between SSJ Goku and MSSJ Goku?
Same form correct?
Same amount of "ki" correct?
What is different is the ki....control
Which is the same principle of "efficiency" in physics, which is why I gave you the light bulb example.
Goku hasn't mastered UI. He has "mastered" how to tap into the form willingly, he has not mastered the technique, hence why there are tiers of UI based on ....ki..... and.....ki control.
@Inevitable He mastered how to "tap" into UI not mastering the form itself.
Apply the logic of what I said earlier.
Goku mastered SSJ , Goku mastered SSG and SSB. He has not mastered the ki control of UI, hence why you see a aura and heat around him.
Remember Whis training
Don't let your ki leak?
My first premise in the video: Dragon Ball is shifting away from Brute force to technique
Example: Moro and 73
@Kylon Bell In order to understand that we have to establish a couple of things: Akira Toriyama said that in order to get more powerful or stronger, you have to do two things:
Have more "ki" or have more "ki control"
73 with his ability is weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta(he has less "ki" then them) Ithink you can agree to that. But what makes him more "powerful" is his technique his ...copy technique.
Also consider that he is a alien Andriod and has infinite stamina like the Andriods on Earth.
Now consider this:
It is revealed by Moro that Seven-Three had copied both his magic and combat ability, making him as powerful as Moro after he had spent two months draining energy from planets - and thus elevated Moro to a level beyond that after he absorbed Seven-Three
That Moro that was "copied" was Full Power Youthful Moro, who was stronger than UI Omen Goku.
Do you see where I'm going?
Moro lost to SSBE Vegeta who used a Technique to weaken Moro with all the "ki" he absorbed correct?
We agree that Old man Moro is weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta because they have more "ki" correct?
If you agree, then the fusion was Old Man Moro+ Full power Moro, with all of 73 abilities (piccolo healing, Gohan, Vegeta, and Moro's stuff)
Moro got more "powerful" as a result of the fusion giving him all the ki accumulated from 73 and Moro's magic, putting him over all the fighters at the part in the arc.
@Kylon Bell That's a lot of contradictions, perhaps you should re read what you just said.
You said "ki is the equivalent of power" that is not true.
Power is a "measure" of energy or ki,
Think of the scouters, they "measure" ....power levels... or ki or raw energy.
As for your Moro "tricks or magic"
That was technique that allowed him use one of the methods of get stronger, being ki or better ki control.
His magic increased his ki, which made him stronger, then like I said above, he got stronger by using a magic "technique" to eat 73 and obtain all his abilities and ki