Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

I think we can safely say that Piccolo is treated without any kind of interest in both media. It's unclear where he stands in the anime and in the manga, there are some hints here and there, but he's not considered important enough to have a definite say on how strong he is.

This post.. is absolutely true!

[BWri]

Piccolo’s level in the anime is quite a headache, since he can beat SS2 Gohan before the ToP and at the same time pair with Base Gohan against Saonel and Pirina.

He's clearly ultimate there's no way he's doing that well in base for the reasons you stated above.

Yeah, I tend to agree but the anime confuses things by making Ultimate a visual transformation with the bang and aura. I don't think Gohan's "forms" are so cut and dry like with the other Saiyans even in the anime. I don't think he's in the same base state as the other Saiyans or alternatively, I don't think he's locked out of his ultimate power when he doesn't have the bang. I just think the Bang and Aura indicate that he's fighting at his highest level.

[Koitsukai]

Piccolo’s level in the anime is quite a headache, since he can beat SS2 Gohan before the ToP and at the same time pair with Base Gohan against Saonel and Pirina.

He's clearly ultimate there's no way he's doing that well in base for the reasons you stated above.

Yeah, I tend to agree but the anime confuses things by making Ultimate a visual transformation with the bang and aura. I don't think Gohan's "forms" are so cut and dry like with the other Saiyans even in the anime. I don't think he's in the same base state as the other Saiyans or alternatively, I don't think he's locked out of his ultimate power when he doesn't have the bang. I just think the Bang and Aura indicate that he's fighting at his highest level.

Absolutely my headcanon, but maybe Gohan with the bang is his ultimate form at full force, and without it he is just in his increased base form which is what his ultimate form should be. So his base form is indeed a much stronger form but not quite his absolute power... if that makes any sense.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think Gohan is quite a clear-cut case.

When he's using his absolute full Ultimate State power, he has the bang and full aura empowerment.

When not using this level of power, his base form is normal. So he got strong enough that him and Piccolo are able to sync up on an equal level without any transformations or alternate power-ups.

Also clears with him taking on Goku during the tag-team recruitment spar and Goku resisting the Demon Explosive Wave from Piccolo like back in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo’s level in the anime is quite a headache, since he can beat SS2 Gohan before the ToP and at the same time pair with Base Gohan against Saonel and Pirina.

That's because SS2 Gohan is weaker than base Goku in episode 88. So is Piccolo.

We know thanks to a writer that both Gohan and Piccolo grew stronger during their training so Piccolo reached current base tier by episode 90 while Ultimate Gohan was current SS2 tier before fighting Goku 1 on 1. In that fight he reached Blue tier in is Ultimate form.

And before anyone bitches about this power jump, manga does the same. Piccolo says Gohan grew stronger than ever while fighting Kefla.

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, but you have Goku and Gohan spar in base and in Super Saiyan before Gohan even thought about doing some training to get back his old strength. So, it’s difficult to say if that’s really the implication, if Goku didn’t have any noticeable grow in his base form between those two fights.

[BWri]

Goku's probably the most inconsistent character in the show. I stopped trying to power scale his forms a while ago. It's kind of pointless. He's much more consistent manga-wise though he still sandbags from time to time.

Absolutely my headcanon, but maybe Gohan with the bang is his ultimate form at full force, and without it he is just in his increased base form which is what his ultimate form should be. So his base form is indeed a much stronger form but not quite his absolute power... if that makes any sense.

Pretty much exactly how I think it works.

That's because SS2 Gohan is weaker than base Goku in episode 88. So is Piccolo. We know thanks to a writer that both Gohan and Piccolo grew stronger during their training so Piccolo reached current base tier by episode 90 while Ultimate Gohan was current SS2 tier before fighting Goku 1 on 1. In that fight he reached Blue tier in is Ultimate form.

Base Saiyan power is wildly inconsistent in the anime. I'll challenge this with the example of Botamo. Vegeta could not budge Botamo as an SSJ and yet Gohan completely overpowered him and his damage negation in his base. That alone proves that Gohan's base is much higher than Vegeta's SSJ. That's all in the same tournament. And I believe Vegeta's base was still much higher than Goku's ever since the FT arc??

[ZombieVito]

Goku's probably the most inconsistent character in the show. I stopped trying to power scale his forms a while ago. It's kind of pointless. He's much more consistent manga-wise though he still sandbags from time to time.

Absolutely my headcanon, but maybe Gohan with the bang is his ultimate form at full force, and without it he is just in his increased base form which is what his ultimate form should be. So his base form is indeed a much stronger form but not quite his absolute power... if that makes any sense.

Pretty much exactly how I think it works.

That's because SS2 Gohan is weaker than base Goku in episode 88. So is Piccolo. We know thanks to a writer that both Gohan and Piccolo grew stronger during their training so Piccolo reached current base tier by episode 90 while Ultimate Gohan was current SS2 tier before fighting Goku 1 on 1. In that fight he reached Blue tier in is Ultimate form.

Base Saiyan power is wildly inconsistent in the anime. I'll challenge this with the example of Botamo. Vegeta could not budge Botamo as an SSJ and yet Gohan completely overpowered him and his damage negation in his base. That alone proves that Gohan's base is much higher than Vegeta's SSJ. That's all in the same tournament. And I believe Vegeta's base was still much higher than Goku's ever since the FT arc??

Gohan used a different tactic than Vegeta.

Vegeta just punched him in a straight line never moving him. Gohan couldn't move him as well at first but then started to punch him higher and used that to lift Botamo and then carry him to the edge of the ring.

[BWri]

Base Saiyan power is wildly inconsistent in the anime. I'll challenge this with the example of Botamo. Vegeta could not budge Botamo as an SSJ and yet Gohan completely overpowered him and his damage negation in his base. That alone proves that Gohan's base is much higher than Vegeta's SSJ. That's all in the same tournament. And I believe Vegeta's base was still much higher than Goku's ever since the FT arc??

Gohan used a different tactic than Vegeta.

Vegeta just punched him in a straight line never moving him. Gohan couldn't move him as well at first but then started to punch him higher and used that to lift Botamo and then carry him to the edge of the ring.

Gohan's power is what was used to move Botamo to that position. In the manga #17 demonstrates this as well by one-shotting him. The fact is, Botamo advanced on SSJ Vegeta as he was punching him, while Gohan stopped him with stronger punches and ultimately repelled him. The point being SSJ Vegeta's punches had 0 effect while base Gohan's stopped Botamo and bypassed his ability. If SSJ Vegeta was dozens of times stronger than Gohan, he would also be able to repel Botamo with punches like Gohan and #17 did.

[ZombieVito]

Base Saiyan power is wildly inconsistent in the anime. I'll challenge this with the example of Botamo. Vegeta could not budge Botamo as an SSJ and yet Gohan completely overpowered him and his damage negation in his base. That alone proves that Gohan's base is much higher than Vegeta's SSJ. That's all in the same tournament. And I believe Vegeta's base was still much higher than Goku's ever since the FT arc??

Gohan used a different tactic than Vegeta.

Vegeta just punched him in a straight line never moving him. Gohan couldn't move him as well at first but then started to punch him higher and used that to lift Botamo and then carry him to the edge of the ring.

Gohan's power is what was used to move Botamo to that position. In the manga #17 demonstrates this as well by one-shotting him. The fact is, Botamo advanced on SSJ Vegeta as he was punching him, while Gohan stopped him with stronger punches and ultimately repelled him. The point being SSJ Vegeta's punches had 0 effect while base Gohan's stopped Botamo and bypassed his ability. If SSJ Vegeta was dozens of times stronger than Gohan, he would also be able to repel Botamo with punches like Gohan and #17 did.

No, it was the angle Gohan used to punch him. Both punched Botamo in a straight line and nothing happened. It was until Gohan changed direction that he was able to move him enough to lift him.

[BWri]

No, it was the angle Gohan used to punch him. Both punched Botamo in a straight line and nothing happened. It was until Gohan changed direction that he was able to move him enough to lift him.

If he moved him at all it required strength, which Vegeta did not possess as a Super Saiyan, hence why he could not move Botamo. The direction doesn't matter. I would even say it's more difficult to punch someone upwards than backwards, especially when their legs are in a simple upright standing position and not braced.

[ZombieVito]

No, it was the angle Gohan used to punch him. Both punched Botamo in a straight line and nothing happened. It was until Gohan changed direction that he was able to move him enough to lift him.

If he moved him at all it required strength, which Vegeta did not possess as a Super Saiyan, hence why he could not move Botamo. The direction doesn't matter. I would even say it's more difficult to punch someone upwards than backwards, especially when their legs are in a simple upright standing position and not braced.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/6 ... =post_body

[BWri]

No, it was the angle Gohan used to punch him. Both punched Botamo in a straight line and nothing happened. It was until Gohan changed direction that he was able to move him enough to lift him.

If he moved him at all it required strength, which Vegeta did not possess as a Super Saiyan, hence why he could not move Botamo. The direction doesn't matter. I would even say it's more difficult to punch someone upwards than backwards, especially when their legs are in a simple upright standing position and not braced.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/6 ... =post_body

I guess reddit was down for a bit but the link works now. This thread doesn't address the force needed to perform this action which is the main disagreement you and I are having. To get back to the question of force, I counter with this: https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimf ... ch_easier/ and this https://www.quora.com/Why-does-it-requi ... vel-ground

In other words, it would still take more force to lift Botamo than to push him back and even more force considering Botamo would be falling between each punch.

Let's simplify the question. Is it easier to push a fridge or lift it? If Mike Tyson had to punch that fridge to move it, would he have more success punching it backwards or lifting it with repeated punches?

Now let's make that question a little more complex. Let's take that fridge and say that it grounds any force that doesn't reach a certain threshold. If Mike Tyson was able to move this fridge in any way, wouldn't that mean he passed the necessary threshold of force needed for such a task? Why would lifting force be easier than pushing force, in your opinion? Why would a supposedly stronger Vegeta not be able to knock Botamo backwards if Gohan could knock him upwards?

[ZombieVito]

Guess it's a mistake then.

Or the amount of punches he did at the speed he did gave it more force?

[BWri]

Guess it's a mistake then.

Or the amount of punches he did at the speed he did gave it more force?

I think it would still require him to be stronger than Vegeta who would have an easier time moving him if he's stronger. In Gohan's case, he's working against Botamo's weight, ability, and gravity to lift him. Vegeta just has to deal with Botamo's ability since they're both on flat ground.

[Nevaeh]

So uh, that promo bit for the new movie still refers to Broly as the "greatest enemy"

[Sikat]

You mean the bit that was advertising the Broly film?

[Nevaeh]

Yea. Right next to the bit about the new movie and it's "new history" or whatever, Broly is still labeled as the "greatest enemy"

Pretty amusing

[ZombieVito]

Maybe Toei will ignore Moro lol.

[Thani]

Maybe Toei will ignore Moro lol.

Even better, imagine they keeping both Moro and Granolah while still advertising Broly as "probably stronger than Beerus" and therefore stronger than those two rofl