Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:07 am

Super Saiyan Kefla was said to have power similar to that of the Spirit Bomb which would have surpassed Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken X20 as it was meant to be the trump card.

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla should be twice as strong as that.

It's how Top compares to that. I would think being as he was the second main fighting antagonist and the last but one guy to be overcome he should logically be above Kelfa but who knows.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:59 am

Honestly, I put Kefla together with Toppo and just have Blue Evolution surpassing that temporarily because of that pride boost, which is more showcasing his potential level than current one.

After Geets survived his own suicide attack, there is no reason to believe that he could output even the initial level of power of his SSBE against Jiren, so to me he was never at full power after beating Toppo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:22 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:59 am Honestly, I put Kefla together with Toppo and just have Blue Evolution surpassing that temporarily because of that pride boost, which is more showcasing his potential level than current one.

After Geets survived his own suicide attack, there is no reason to believe that he could output even the initial level of power of his SSBE against Jiren, so to me he was never at full power after beating Toppo.
IDK, didn't Jiren say something like "I can see how you beat Toppo but it won't be enough for me" after Geets threw a punch at him? it has to be at least a decent amount of power for FP Jiren to say that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:34 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:10 am There's no clear answer or direct way to compare Toppo and Kefla.

We know SS Kefla is stronger than a tired SSBKK, (we don't even know for sure what KK multiplier Goku was using). The logic says it could only be regular KK because he was already running on fumes and sounds hard to believe he'd be able to use so much power so soon. But then, SS2 Kefla would follow the KK multiplier and she clearly was above the initial KK mutipliers.

1st scenario: probably Goku went KKx10, Kefla with SS2 doubled that (and then some, maybe) placing her above KKx20. In that case, then she'd be above initial SSBE Vegeta, and below FP SSBE. Being probably weaker than Hakaishin Toppo.

2nd scenario: Goku went KKx20 just to get it out of the way and get to Sign already. How did his body withstand that? don't know. If SS Kefla is slightly above that, then her SS2 is like KKx40, like what FP SSBE Vegeta seems to be(he starts equal to KKx20 and grows strong enough to beat a Hakaishin). In that case, she'd be stronger than Toppo, on Geets' vicinity, and 2nd Sign fucks all of them.

I'm more convinced by the 1st scenario but not completely sold either. I also take into account Toppo was considered a hakaishin and it was a big deal, I'm not sure the girls reached that level, also the order in which they were introduced, with Toppo being the opening act for Jiren makes me believe he is the second strongest non U-7 warrior in the arena.
SS Kefla was directly compared to the Genkidama Goku did on episode 109. She's stronger than KKx20 Blue Goku in just Super Saiyan because of that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:02 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:34 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:10 am There's no clear answer or direct way to compare Toppo and Kefla.

We know SS Kefla is stronger than a tired SSBKK, (we don't even know for sure what KK multiplier Goku was using). The logic says it could only be regular KK because he was already running on fumes and sounds hard to believe he'd be able to use so much power so soon. But then, SS2 Kefla would follow the KK multiplier and she clearly was above the initial KK mutipliers.

1st scenario: probably Goku went KKx10, Kefla with SS2 doubled that (and then some, maybe) placing her above KKx20. In that case, then she'd be above initial SSBE Vegeta, and below FP SSBE. Being probably weaker than Hakaishin Toppo.

2nd scenario: Goku went KKx20 just to get it out of the way and get to Sign already. How did his body withstand that? don't know. If SS Kefla is slightly above that, then her SS2 is like KKx40, like what FP SSBE Vegeta seems to be(he starts equal to KKx20 and grows strong enough to beat a Hakaishin). In that case, she'd be stronger than Toppo, on Geets' vicinity, and 2nd Sign fucks all of them.

I'm more convinced by the 1st scenario but not completely sold either. I also take into account Toppo was considered a hakaishin and it was a big deal, I'm not sure the girls reached that level, also the order in which they were introduced, with Toppo being the opening act for Jiren makes me believe he is the second strongest non U-7 warrior in the arena.
SS Kefla was directly compared to the Genkidama Goku did on episode 109. She's stronger than KKx20 Blue Goku in just Super Saiyan because of that.
Goku got stronger after that, he couldn't touch Jiren, and then he was fighting him without KK. The KK she faced had to be stronger than the one in 109, otherwise, there would've been no fight at all. And we've seen Goku put Kefla down when he powers up his KK*.

*One thing I just noticed for the first time, Goku amps his KK mid fight, so he probably went KKx20 to knock her down prior to losing. Meaning he is now above his former KKx20 level and closer to the genki dama level Kefla is at.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:47 pm

The whole dynamic between Goku and Caulifla’s fight revolves around one surpassing the other with their own particular methods. Sometimes Goku outskill Caulifla or overpowers her and vice-versa, sometimes a mix of both. When they both use their strongest forms, this dynamic is seemingly on a loop and Piccolo explicitly tells us about it, to not leave any doubt, until Goku discovers a way of combining ultra instinct and kamehameha and beats her.

The point is that while using kaioken, Goku initially had the upper hand, but Kefla (Caulifla) quickly managed to see an opening and incited Goku to use Sign in response. Power-wise, I would say they were pretty much relative to each other, SS Kefla and SSBKaioken x20 Goku. The same about UI Sign Goku and SS2 Kefla. Perhaps Kefla had a slight advantage in power in both situations, but Goku’s experience and instinct were sharper.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:09 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:02 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:34 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:10 am There's no clear answer or direct way to compare Toppo and Kefla.

We know SS Kefla is stronger than a tired SSBKK, (we don't even know for sure what KK multiplier Goku was using). The logic says it could only be regular KK because he was already running on fumes and sounds hard to believe he'd be able to use so much power so soon. But then, SS2 Kefla would follow the KK multiplier and she clearly was above the initial KK mutipliers.

1st scenario: probably Goku went KKx10, Kefla with SS2 doubled that (and then some, maybe) placing her above KKx20. In that case, then she'd be above initial SSBE Vegeta, and below FP SSBE. Being probably weaker than Hakaishin Toppo.

2nd scenario: Goku went KKx20 just to get it out of the way and get to Sign already. How did his body withstand that? don't know. If SS Kefla is slightly above that, then her SS2 is like KKx40, like what FP SSBE Vegeta seems to be(he starts equal to KKx20 and grows strong enough to beat a Hakaishin). In that case, she'd be stronger than Toppo, on Geets' vicinity, and 2nd Sign fucks all of them.

I'm more convinced by the 1st scenario but not completely sold either. I also take into account Toppo was considered a hakaishin and it was a big deal, I'm not sure the girls reached that level, also the order in which they were introduced, with Toppo being the opening act for Jiren makes me believe he is the second strongest non U-7 warrior in the arena.
SS Kefla was directly compared to the Genkidama Goku did on episode 109. She's stronger than KKx20 Blue Goku in just Super Saiyan because of that.
Goku got stronger after that, he couldn't touch Jiren, and then he was fighting him without KK. The KK she faced had to be stronger than the one in 109, otherwise, there would've been no fight at all. And we've seen Goku put Kefla down when he powers up his KK*.

*One thing I just noticed for the first time, Goku amps his KK mid fight, so he probably went KKx20 to knock her down prior to losing. Meaning he is now above his former KKx20 level and closer to the genki dama level Kefla is at.
There's no statement in the entire tournament that says Goku got stronger in his base form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:54 am

I personally have no reason to think, at least based off feats in the story, that Top or Vegeta ever surpassed SS2 Kefla.

She was pretty definitively the 3rd strongest person in the tournament I think. (After Jiren and Goku.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:19 pm

That's what I believe though I feel like Top is the one should be the more powerful.

In the manga, he was more powerful and in the Heroes manga he comes across that way as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:33 am

So this new manga chapter did something small but neat.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:29 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:33 am So this new manga chapter did something small but neat.
that doesn't necessarily correlates to battle power

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:11 am

Monaito would've been a pretty decent fighter up until Piccolo Daimaoh's arc. Funny that Kami split in half was still stronger.

So, Gas was pretty shitty, below 5,000 PL for sure, he'll lose to Bardock who must be below that benchmark as well. How strong do you think he might be now? below current FF Freeza that's a given. Would it be too crazy for him to go from Raditz arc tier to Cell arc or Buu arc level in 40 years? it would be weird to have a guy that strong in universe 7 without anybody knowing about it.

I wonder if he is strong enough to deal with a battered Vegeta or a battered Granola. How strong do you guys think Vegeta and Granola are right now after the beatdown both suffered?

I guess we'll never know how strong Granny was before the wish, that ship has sailed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:33 am

We have yet to see how the fight between Bardock and Gas unfolded. I guess Bardock will have a reading at his battle power and we could perhaps infer something from that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:10 pm

I was always under the impression that if Gas was strong enough to defeat the "old Freeza", it would be mentioned. Because as far as U7 is concerned, that is a huuuuge deal. Elec is confident that Gas can potentially surpass Freeza, even with his post-revival power-up, but he also has no idea about how powerful Freeza really became.

Then again, he has knowledge of Goku and Vegeta from their fight against Moro, and he never reacted on the level of might they displayed, which is more than capable of making even Buu look like a joke.

So I dunno. I'd think Gas is weaker than Namek Freeza in his Final Form, but he could very well be as strong as Moro going by character reactions and statements.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:05 pm

I really don't know what to make of Gas.

Elec didn't want to let Gas fight the powered-up Granolah, but also says he might've won.

I always thought keeping Gas out of the fight was basically foreshadowing him as the upcoming threat.

If Elec truly believed Gas could've won, then it seems logical that he'd be in Goku and Vegeta's league. He had an understanding of their power through 73's data, so where else would his confidence in Gas come from?

But looking at everything else surrounding the Heeters (unable to gain control over Freeza's army despite Freeza being absent for so many yrs) seems to point to Gas not quite being on that level yet. That's probably where the "insurance" part comes in regarding the Dragon Balls.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:56 pm

Elecc said only Gas could be able to surpass Freeza, so I just don't know. I assume they are talking about DBS FF Freeza, so Gas would be below non-Golden Freeza, which seemed to be SS Caulifla tier. I assume by the ToP she was at the SS level of U7.

Gas might be a bit below SS level, although with the power inflation since the ToP/Broly, Gas could be just current base level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:07 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:29 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:33 am So this new manga chapter did something small but neat.
that doesn't necessarily correlates to battle power
Dende's abilities only manifested when he got his potential unlocked.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:54 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:56 pm Elecc said only Gas could be able to surpass Freeza, so I just don't know. I assume they are talking about DBS FF Freeza, so Gas would be below non-Golden Freeza, which seemed to be SS Caulifla tier. I assume by the ToP she was at the SS level of U7.

Gas might be a bit below SS level, although with the power inflation since the ToP/Broly, Gas could be just current base level.
40 years of training is a long time. I mean gas must have been humiliated by whatever Bardock did to him.

Goku/Vegeta are now GoD to angel trainee levels. Which a lot of it, they needed special training. And they only just became this strong in the last 3-4 years.

I mean Gas and his family are a whole other race. While they aren’t saiyans. His people like granolah’s people have the potential to reach or surpass GoD level beings.

I don’t think it’s hard to believe that Gas is golden frieza level. Or close to it. My question is, if he is near big the guys in terms of power. Why didn’t Beerus or Whis notice these guys?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:29 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:54 am I don’t think it’s hard to believe that Gas is golden frieza level. Or close to it. My question is, if he is near big the guys in terms of power. Why didn’t Beerus or Whis notice these guys?
Perhaps they did! The Oracle Fish never revealed who would be the strongest warrior it foresaw. At least until now, everyone is assuming it is Granolah.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 am

I'm also thinking Granola wasn't the one the prophecy was talking about and feel it was all a red herring. Whis is never certain about this. My money is on Gas.

I doubt Gas is Golden Freeza level though, they would've overthrown Freeza by now. They shouldn't also know about the golden form, I doubt Freeza used that within his army. He barely even used it in the Broly movie.

Funny they are not manipulating the saiyans to kill Freeza, when they are doing so to get Granola killed. They either think they wouldn't want to do it, can't do it (Freeza being the strongest in their minds) or something else like thinking they would sit on the thrown themselves or wipe out his army.

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